Charmander (Analysis)'

[Banryu]

STATUS: Added a revised Overview section, and added some information about Charmander's counters (IE, anyone with priority not named Ice Shard).

[Overview]

<p>Though one of Pokemon's most cherished and beloved characters, our friend Charmander is dreadfully outclassed in the Little Cup environment. As a Fire-type, it is surprisingly versatile, being among the only Pokemon of its type with access to such boosting moves as Dragon Dance as Swords Dance, as well as helpful coverage moves like Rock Slide and Dragon Claw. Unfortunately, despite these interesting perks, poor Charmander suffers a mediocre offensive stat spread and an appalling lack of priority, and therefore a massive weakness to priority itself. Overall, Charmander finds itself to be an inferior option when compared to such Pokemon as Magby, Houndour, and Bagon. </p>

[SET]
name: Dragon Dancer (3 Attacks)
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Flare Blitz
move 3: Thunderpunch
move 4: Brick Break
item: Oran Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Adamant
evs: 44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> </p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p> </p>

[SET]
name: Dragon Dancer (Sub-Liechi)
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Fire Punch
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Substitute
item: Liechi Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Jolly
evs: 44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>A different variation of the Dragon Dance set; it requires a little more setting up, but once it has, this Charmander caps out at 28 Attack and 25 speed, outspeeding the 24-speed scarfers and giving it a little extra punch. Since the tradeoff of Substitute for an attacking moveslot is necessary for this set to work, Dragon Claw will get you the best neutral coverage with Fire Punch. </p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p> </p>

[Team Options]

<p></p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Charmander runs a decent Choice Scarf set with Overheat, Flamethrower, Hidden Power (Grass) and Rock Slide. The lattermost move is desirable for Charmander, as he is the only Fire-type with the move and it enables him to nail Houndour, Ponyta, and Mantyke switch-ins for super effective damage, but the set is outclassed for the most part by Scarf Houndour, who gets better neutral coverage with its own dual STAB, and Magby, who has the raw stats to sweep without needing a Choice Scarf.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Anyone with Aqua Jet is a capable counter to Charmander. Carvanha, Totodile, Kabuto, Buizel, Squirtle, and anyone else with the move pick Charmander off easily, especially since Charmander is bound to have taken passive damage in the form of Stealth Rock damage or Life Orb / Flare Blitz recoil, and for that matter, virtually any priority move is capable of finishing Charmander off, especially in the case of the Sub-Dragon Dance set.</p>

 

[ferron]

rather than use SD+salac, couldn't you use DD and free up the item slot for an oran berry? with your EVs, after a single DD you have 21 attack and 25 speed, without having to drop 3 subs.

 

[Banryu]

You could, but the problem is, Oran doesn't do Charmander all that much good anyway, since he just dies from most things, even non-SE stuff. :\

However, as I say I haven't begun testing the SD set yet, so it's not to say that DD might be better. I thought, for DD, that Adamant might be better to get more power, and noticed then that SD + Salac puts SDmander above +1+1 DDmander.

Maybe I should just remove the set comments until I actually get around to testing it, though.

 

[sbc]

Would AncientPower be better over Rock Slide rather than splitting EVs/Nature

 

[Heysup]

I think you're use of Charmander here is quite odd, because it is directly outclassed by other Pokemon (Magby, Cyndaquil, Houndour, etc).

Where Charmander has potential is with its Dragon Dance set, since no other Fire-type gets DD iirc.

 

[Banryu]

I will stand in defense of the Scarf set, just because I've had a reasonable degree of success with it, and it's probably better than the nearly-identical Scarf Cyndaquil.

As for the other, I guess it's more practical to go with DD; Charmander doesn't have enough time to set up SD AND multiple Subs anyway. :\

This is what I was thinking for a DD set:

Hold Life Orb / Oran
Adamant / Jolly
44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
- DD
- Flare Blitz
- Thunderpunch / Rock Slide
- Dragon Claw / Rock Slide

DD and FB are the staples, with the last two slots being 2 / 3 of Thunderpunch for Water-types, Rock Slide for Mantyke and Flash Fire switchins like Houndour, and Dragon Claw for the Dragons that resist FB and Tpunch. Something other than Life Orb might be good, because too many LO'd FBs would quickly KO Char.

 

[franky]

I think you should be more precise on your Overview. You say it is completely outclassed, then you say it is unique, and then you ended it. I think you should make it concise as possible. Say something along the lines of: "Charmander might be outclassed by other Fire-types, but it has a couple of advantages that give it a comfortable niche in the tier. (Then you list it)."

 

[Banryu]

Well, I think that's oversimplifying exactly what I said a bit, but I see your point. :0 I sometimes have a little trouble articulating precisely what I mean to say... so I'll probably use that, thanks.

Changed the Swords Dance set to Dragon Dance, with the moves described previously. I'm kind of struggling with the item to use on it, since Life Orb / Flare Blitz recoil means it can't last more than maybe one or two KOs, but Oran Berry means it loses out on power. Does anyone have any suggestions to fix this?

 

[Heysup]

Well, I think that's oversimplifying exactly what I said a bit, but I see your point. :0 I sometimes have a little trouble articulating precisely what I mean to say... so I'll probably use that, thanks.

Changed the Swords Dance set to Dragon Dance, with the moves described previously. I'm kind of struggling with the item to use on it, since Life Orb / Flare Blitz recoil means it can't last more than maybe one or two KOs, but Oran Berry means it loses out on power. Does anyone have any suggestions to fix this?

Make DD Leichi and option with Fire Punch. IE the set will be:


[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Punch
move 3: ThunderPunch / Dragon Claw
move 4: Brick Break / Substitute
item: Life Orb / Liechi Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe


Then explain in set comments that Fire Punch + Dragon Claw are the best combo for DD SubLiechi because of the neutral coverage, but without Substitute ThunderPunch + Brick Break give you much better super effective coverage (AKA you'll OHKO Munchlax and Mantyke (other waters too)

Remove Rock Slide...it hits nothing important that ThunderPunch and Brick Break don't.

I will stand in defense of the Scarf set, just because I've had a reasonable degree of success with it, and it's probably better than the nearly-identical Scarf Cyndaquil.

Sorry if I sound rude, but this rational is completely flawed and is not good enough. You need to legitimately explain why Charmander is not "100%" outclassed by Cyndaquil if you really think it should be kept.

For example, you need to explain what advantages Charmander has, and why it's worth losing Scarf Eruption; the only reason to use Cyndaquil in the first place.

Be careful, as well, that you don't come up with something that is 100% outclassed by Magby (if you were to suggest Flare Blitz and ThunderPunch, for example).

 

[Banryu]

Make DD Leichi and option with Fire Punch. IE the set will be:


[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Flare Blitz / Fire Punch
move 3: ThunderPunch / Dragon Claw
move 4: Brick Break / Substitute
item: Life Orb / Liechi Berry
ability: Blaze
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 44 HP / 180 Atk / 12 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

Then explain in set comments that Fire Punch + Dragon Claw are the best combo for DD SubLiechi because of the neutral coverage, but without Substitute ThunderPunch + Brick Break give you much better super effective coverage (AKA you'll OHKO Munchlax and Mantyke (other waters too)

...ow, my head... Deja vu. =___=
I say this because this looks strikingly like the Sub-SD-Liechi set I first suggested in place of the DD set, which was basically the same as what you're suggesting and which people said they didn't like.

I know you're not the one who said that, but I kind of want to tell you all to make up your minds, LOL. What I'll probably just do is list Sub-Swords Dance with Punch and Claw as a separate set, and just do the DD+3 attacks like you suggested.

Sorry if I sound rude, but this rational is completely flawed and is not good enough. You need to legitimately explain why Charmander is not "100%" outclassed by Cyndaquil if you really think it should be kept.

For example, you need to explain what advantages Charmander has, and why it's worth losing Scarf Eruption; the only reason to use Cyndaquil in the first place.

I don't think you're being rude and I understand, as I said I'm not the best at articulating my intetion most of the time.
Also, I can totally prove why Charmander is better.

For one thing, you have to look at the advantages of Overheat and Eruption against each other. Advantages in blue, disadvantages in red.

Eruption - 150 BP, 100 acc.
- BP drops to ~117 after switching into SR once (IE, inferior to Fire Blast after one switchin to SR,)
-> essentially requires a Spinner, BP still affected by priority

Overheat - 140 BP, 90 acc.​

- Sp. Atk. drop usage (somewhat fixed by Scarf strategy)
- difference in BP between Overheat and Eruption negligible (I don't have any calcs to back this up as of now, but I can change that if people aren't convinced.)

My argument here is basically that STAB Overheat is simply the superior move as far as Scarf sets are concerned, since STAB Eruption is too heavily affected by Stealth Rock damage. Of course, that doesn't mean Charmander is better because it gets Overheat, which all Fire-types do, but that DOES mean that Cyndaquil is not better because it gets Eruption (in other words, there's no reason at all to use him. -.- Sorry, Quil. D: )

Why Charmander IS better / unique as a Fire-type Scarfer is that it gets Rock Slide, and is the only Fire-type to do so (...right?). Its Rock Slide will OHKO Houndour switchins, and also hits both Ponyta and Mantyke supereffectively, which Break Break / HP Grass (respectively) do not. This is important for Charmander as a Scarfer because it allows it to remove its potential counters / enemy switchins, leaving it open to sweep with its Fire STAB when switching back in later.

Be careful, as well, that you don't come up with something that is 100% outclassed by Magby (if you were to suggest Flare Blitz and ThunderPunch, for example).

It's true that Magby does not get those moves, but Charmander does get boosting moves, which Magby can't brag of. That's basically it, of course.

 

[Heysup]

...ow, my head... Deja vu. =___=
I say this because this looks strikingly like the Sub-SD-Liechi set I first suggested in place of the DD set, which was basically the same as what you're suggesting and which people said they didn't like.

I know you're not the one who said that, but I kind of want to tell you all to make up your minds, LOL. What I'll probably just do is list Sub-Swords Dance with Punch and Claw as a separate set, and just do the DD+3 attacks like you suggested.

DD Liechi =/= SD Salac. DD liechi has the ability to boost its Speed and set up a Substitute that way. SD does not give you the opportunity to sweep in the same respect.

Splitting them up into two DD sets would be good. I'd stay away from Swords Dance; it's generally inferior unless you're trying to use a wall breaker (which you're not).

I don't think you're being rude and I understand, as I said I'm not the best at articulating my intetion most of the time.
Also, I can totally prove why Charmander is better.

I'm glad you understand, because I think I'm going to have to do it agian -_

For one thing, you have to look at the advantages of Overheat and Eruption against each other. Advantages in blue, disadvantages in red.

Eruption - 150 BP, 100 acc.
- BP drops to ~117 after switching into SR once (IE, inferior to Fire Blast after one switchin to SR,)
-> essentially requires a Spinner, BP still affected by priority

Overheat - 140 BP, 90 acc.​

- Sp. Atk. drop usage (somewhat fixed by Scarf strategy)
- difference in BP between Overheat and Eruption negligible (I don't have any calcs to back this up as of now, but I can change that if people aren't convinced.)

My argument here is basically that STAB Overheat is simply the superior move as far as Scarf sets are concerned, since STAB Eruption is too heavily affected by Stealth Rock damage. Of course, that doesn't mean Charmander is better because it gets Overheat, which all Fire-types do, but that DOES mean that Cyndaquil is not better because it gets Eruption (in other words, there's no reason at all to use him. -.- Sorry, Quil. D: )

You do know that 117 base power after Stealth Rock (with 100% accuracy) is still better than Overheat right? Not to mention, you start with Cyndaquil at 100% HP meaning it will fair much better than Charmander who relies on a move that's absurdly easy to set up on. Dratini, Bagon, and Krabby will seriously have no trouble setting up on Charmander, while they are all 2HKOed by Cyndaquil's Eruption.

Magby literally 100% outclasses Choice Charmander. Cyndaquil only has hope because of Eruption.

Why Charmander IS better / unique as a Fire-type Scarfer is that it gets Rock Slide, and is the only Fire-type to do so (...right?). Its Rock Slide will OHKO Houndour switchins, and also hits both Ponyta and Mantyke supereffectively, which Break Break / HP Grass (respectively) do not. This is important for Charmander as a Scarfer because it allows it to remove its potential counters / enemy switchins, leaving it open to sweep with its Fire STAB when switching back in later.

Rock Slide doesn't OHKO Ponyta or Mantyke with your low Atk investment. This will result in them easily OHKOing you. Otherwise, you're just 2HKOing them on the switch, Cyndaquil also 2HKOes Ponyta and Mantyke.

Eruption, Hidden Power Rock, Double Kick/Reversal, and hit everything that's relevant that Charmander would with Rock Slide and without ThunderPunch.

Additionally, without Eruption, Magby outclasses Charmander.

With a moveset of: Overheat, Hidden Power Grass, Cross Chop, and ThunderPunch, this set is directly outclassed. This is the main point. Because Charmander does not have Eruption, it is outclassed by Magby.

So, Cyndaquil hits harder with Eruption, Magby hits harder with physical coverage moves, what relevant advantage does Charmander have?

It's a lose-lose situation. As soon as you say "Eruption doesn't matter", Magby outclasses it. If you say "Eruption does matter", Cyndaquil outclasses it.

It's true that Magby does not get those moves, but Charmander does get boosting moves, which Magby can't brag of. That's basically it, of course.

Ok so if that's it, why are you proposing a Scarf set?

 

[Banryu]

Okay, okay. I see your point about Eruption VS Overheat, and yes, I overlooked the setup factor that Overheat allows after the SpA drop. However, I'm not convinced that Cyndaquil > Charmander simply because I've had more success in using Char than Quil, BOTH of whom I've used enough to tell the difference (...I think). And that includes against Mantyke switchins (I haven't seen anyone use Ponyta), who yes, are 2HKOed by Rock Slide on the switch.

It's like they say, in theory, practice and theory are the same, but in practice, they aren't.

But I think you're probably right about Magby outclassing Scarfmander. So I guess I'll just take him down, then? :\ (Bah... there goes all that testing time.)

 

[Heysup]

Okay, okay. I see your point about Eruption VS Overheat, and yes, I overlooked the setup factor that Overheat allows after the SpA drop. However, I'm not convinced that Cyndaquil > Charmander simply because I've had more success in using Char than Quil, BOTH of whom I've used enough to tell the difference (...I think). And that includes against Mantyke switchins (I haven't seen anyone use Ponyta), who yes, are 2HKOed by Rock Slide on the switch.

It's like they say, in theory, practice and theory are the same, but in practice, they aren't.

But I think you're probably right about Magby outclassing Scarfmander. So I guess I'll just take him down, then? :\ (Bah... there goes all that testing time.)

I know what you mean, but one person's practice is not necessarily a valid assessment when comparing it a majority that disagrees (unfortunately, I may add; I often wish it was the other way around).

Anyway, the Choice Scarf set is by definition something to put in Optional changes.

Optional Changes is purely for sets like Choice Scarf Charmander because it has "1" particular thing that makes it semi-worthwhile to use but it is generally outclassed.

Once this is done, then this analysis looks about ready set-wise.

 

[Banryu]

Okay... well thanks for helping me nail the sets down, I've been needing to do that for a while anyway. Added the Sub-Liechi and 3-Attack DD sets into the analysis, and the Choice Scarf into other options. I'll come back to do the set comments later, I'm seriously incapable of writing anything that will make sense right now. x___X

(Although, I will point out that, in this case, the majority is... you, LOL. So technically not a majority, but you're right anyway so whatever.)

@ sbc: I totally missed your post the first time around, sorry. Yeah, the main reason I said Rock Slide over Ancientpower is the higher base damage and the difference against Mantyke and Houndour, both of whom are hit harder on their weaker Defense stat. However, I had given AP some consideration but never got around to testing it. :\ It's just as well, since the scarf set isn't getting any steam anyway. xP

 

[Banryu]

Alright, I'm sort of at a loss here... I came to the realization that Charmander is literally outclassed at all the sets it can run by standard LC Pokemon, and even with the DD sets (Bagon and Dratini are better at that anyway), it's too vulnerable to priority to really be viable. So what should I do with this? I'm thinking of just adding the Scarf set back in here, since that's really the only other remotely-viable thing Charmander can run, even with being outclassed by other Fire-types. The point is, if the matter of being outclassed by other sets / Pokemon is an issue, I really can't post any sets for Charmander, because he's literally outclassed at everything he can do.

I can't help but think that if LC was divided into OU / UU and stuff like that, Charmander would have less trouble finding a home on people's teams... But I guess we have to fully analyze everyone in LC before we can do that, huh. :\

 

[Heysup]

Charmander is not outclassed when using DD because it has a completely different STAB then the other two Pokemon. Bronzor checks DD Bagon/Tini but it gets destroyed by DD Charmander.

 

[Banryu]

Oh yeah, huh. :0 ....I guess I need to do some more testing with him. x\

I gotta point out, though, that Bronzor will probably KO Charmander if it has EQ before Charmander sets up, especially if it switches into SR once or twice. :0 I guess it needs a Rapid Spinning teammate and Oran is probably the superior item on that 3 attacks set, then.

 

[Heysup]

Just think of it more like something that Charmander can bypass that neither Bagon nor Dratini can.

 

[Banryu]

IE, the only thing... LOL.

EDIT: Good point, eric... thanks for that.

 

[eric the espeon]

Magnemite would also be much easier to beat, and you have a totally different set of resists/weaknesses (overall worse, but better on certain teams if you want specific resistances).