OU Chesnaught (Revamp)

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Small formatting nitpick, but all checks and counters should be formatted as such:

**Flying-types**: Flying-types such as Talonflame, Staraptor, and Mega Pinsir all threaten Chesnaught with their 4x super effective STAB moves. They do not appreciate switching into Leech Seed, however.
 
No. I don't know what you're doing wrong with your math, but Chesnaught is far more than 13% more bulky with a 252/252+ spread than a 252/0 spread. Their HP stats are the same, so you compare the Def stats and calculate like this:

0 Def Chesnaught: 280 Def
252+ Def Chesnaught: 377 Def

(377 - 280)/280 = 0.346 = 34.6% more physical bulk.

Or, you can calculate it based on damage calculations:

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 160-188 (42.1 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught: 214-253 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(66.5 - 49.4)/49.4 = 0.346 = 34.6% more damage taken on maximum rolls
OR
(56.3 - 42.1)/42.1 = 0.337 = 33.7% more damage taken on minimum rolls

No matter how you calculate it, max Def Chesnaught is around 34-35% more physically bulky than 0 Def Chesnaught, so I'm still not sure where you're getting these 10% / 13% numbers.

I mean, we can argue specific examples all day. Just to summarize my thoughts on your points:
I didn't include Life Orb because the calculator didn't include it as a default and it is listed behind Focus Sash in the analysis. I haven't been playing enough lately to make a good judgement on which item is used more at the moment, so I took their word for it. Of course, I did plainly say that Chesnaught shouldn't really be your prime answer to Diggersby anyway, so there's that.

~30% vs >50% is a pretty huge difference for a defensive Pokemon. Outside of beating Azumarill, the defensive set is going to be in considerably better shape later on.

And then the Mega Tyranitar stuff is kinda irrelevant unless you're letting something die every time you bring Chesnaught into Mega Tyranitar, which is pretty bad for a Pokemon who's supposed to counter Mega Tyranitar. If you bring it in directly, you risk dying to an Ice Punch 2HKO 64.5% of the time after Stealth Rock, so it really doesn't matter how much Drain Punch recovery you're getting back when you're dead.

But all that aside, running a faster spread causes you to lose way more bulk than you seem to realize. The speed is honestly not good for much else besides Azumarill, and even then, you still can't exactly switch into Azumarill directly lest you risk coming in on Play Rough. Not to mention that Azumarill isn't quite as big a deal as it was in XY. Most of the other things that Chesnaught is supposed to switch into are generally going to outspeed it regardless of how fast you are, and as such you're going to be worse off defensively against any of those threats. Even if you really wanted the extra power that Adamant provides alongside the resulting extra Drain Punch recovery, I think you'd be a lot better off moving those speed EVs to defense unless you just really needed another Azumarill check (in that case, 252 HP / 152 Atk / 104 Def Impish is more efficient than 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 Def Adamant).
The calc for overall bulk included his HP stat of 380 as well as the defensive stats (280 without, 377 with). Because HP does play a factor in bulk, I felt it proper to include it. Maybe I'm looking at it from a pure damage perspective (HP lost as opposed to percent) because the terrak calc is odd. (Yeah, just did the calc for it: 356 pure damage max roll to 390 for mine. That factors out to roughly 9% HP Lost in difference).

Yeah, with the TTar point, I forgot that the TTar would gain speed on mega. So I concede that point beside the fact that TTar mega isn't currently showing to be too prevalent a threat. Though you'll still do just fine to check/soft counter it regardless (due to resisting the other moves run and Dragon dance being his last slot).

I still think you're underrating the importance of somehow hitting Azumarill and the fact that you'll still beat most of the threats a defensive set takes. The speed is still useful for Rotom-wash and Defensive heatran, as you do knock both out from 70 and 50% respectively, something you otherwise miss. For the most part, I feel the argument has been "Defensive Chesnaught takes this threat better" not "Your spread outright loses".

EDIT: Actually, that spread guarantees a OHKO on Terrakion after a Close Combat Defense drop with Drain Punch, so that's pretty cool. Might be a decent alternate spread after all lol.
Assuming LO, any adamant spread will manage that. Sash and we're talking irrelevancies.
 
The calc for overall bulk included his HP stat of 380 as well as the defensive stats (280 without, 377 with). Because HP does play a factor in bulk, I felt it proper to include it. Maybe I'm looking at it from a pure damage perspective (HP lost as opposed to percent) because the terrak calc is odd. (Yeah, just did the calc for it: 356 pure damage max roll to 390 for mine. That factors out to roughly 9% HP Lost in difference).
The difference is that HP is not a factor in calculating the raw damage. HP is instead the number from which damage is taken after the raw calculation is completed. If the defensive stat is ~35% higher with an identical HP stat, then it's 35% more bulky. It's just like how a Pokemon with the Eviolite will be 50% bulkier than without despite the fact that the HP stat doesn't change.

Assuming LO, any adamant spread will manage that. Sash and we're talking irrelevancies.
That was referring to a spread with a little Attack investment and the rest in physical bulk, in which case it would be more beneficial to give Chesnaught an Impish nature than an Adamant one. In this particular instance, that spread I mentioned gives Chesnaught 380 HP / 288 Atk / 336 Def. An Adamant spread would need 48 Atk EVs to get the same Atk stat, which would leave it with 208 EVs for Def and a Def stat of only 332, so the Impish spread is more efficient. OHKOing Terrakion is just a weird coincidence of the spread, and a different benchmark could be used if a better one can be found.
 
You made a mistake in checks and counters by saying that mega venusaur eliminates chesnaught with sludge bomb. Chesnaught has bulletproof so it is immune to sludge bomb.
 
I'm definitely going to second Ajwf in saying that Spiky Shield is generally inferior to Substitute. I would--at the very least--slash Substitute next to Spiky Shield if you don't outright replace it. As Aj said, the minute the opponent knows about Spiky Shield, they're just going to play around it. Obviously they can play around Substitute, but wasting turns playing around Substitute is going to grant you that many layers of Spikes.
 
I'm definitely going to second Ajwf in saying that Spiky Shield is generally inferior to Substitute. I would--at the very least--slash Substitute next to Spiky Shield if you don't outright replace it. As Aj said, the minute the opponent knows about Spiky Shield, they're just going to play around it. Obviously they can play around Substitute, but wasting turns playing around Substitute is going to grant you that many layers of Spikes.
The problem with substitute is that chesnaught is far to slow meaning it be incredibly difficult to set up substitute. Even if u slash it with spiky shield chesnaught's large number of weaknesses and low special defense make it more risky to use. Plus spiky shield is a far safer option and can allow chesnaught to lock choice users into their moves, do chip damage to physical attackers, and recover more health than a single sub. Since u lose health when losing a sub. I suppose you could use a set consisting of spiky shield, leech seed, drain punch, and sub. could be interesting.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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The problem with substitute is that chesnaught is far to slow meaning it be incredibly difficult to set up substitute. Even if u slash it with spiky shield chesnaught's large number of weaknesses and low special defense make it more risky to use. Plus spiky shield is a far safer option and can allow chesnaught to lock choice users into their moves, do chip damage to physical attackers, and recover more health than a single sub. Since u lose health when losing a sub. I suppose you could use a set consisting of spiky shield, leech seed, drain punch, and sub. could be interesting.
But the problem with the set you mentioned in the last line is that it doesn't have spikes, which is the main reason to use Chesnaught at all. Sub deserves a moves or OO mention for sure.
 
The problem with substitute is that chesnaught is far to slow meaning it be incredibly difficult to set up substitute. Even if u slash it with spiky shield chesnaught's large number of weaknesses and low special defense make it more risky to use. Plus spiky shield is a far safer option and can allow chesnaught to lock choice users into their moves, do chip damage to physical attackers, and recover more health than a single sub. Since u lose health when losing a sub. I suppose you could use a set consisting of spiky shield, leech seed, drain punch, and sub. could be interesting.
The reason Chesnaught is even a good spiker is because he forces a lot of switches. Same principle stands for Substitute. You set it up on the switch and you can Seed or Spike during the off turn. SubSeed Chesnaught is such a monster.
 
No, Greninja is a good Spiker because it forces a lot of switches. Chesnaught is a good Spiker because it has such good physical bulk and a cool defensive typing. It really doesn't matter if you force the switch or not as long as Chesnaught can tank hits from whatever's in front of it.

SubSeed Chesnaught is actually pretty blah because it's so slow, and it's really not that hard to bring in something that can break its Sub and force it out after. Unless your opponent just really has nothing to threaten a Chesnaught (which is more a case of bad teambuilding on their part rather than Chesnaught being an effective SubSeeder), the sequence of events is generally going to go something like this: you Sub while the opponent switches out -> you Leech Seed while the opponent breaks your Sub -> you get forced out the next turn. In that case, you'd be thankful just to restore all the health you lost to Substitute while your opponent is only losing ~1/4 of their health to Leech Seed during the turns that they break the Sub and when you switch out. At least fast Leech Seed users like Whimsicott can throw up Subs before the opponent can move while restoring the majority of the health lost to Substitute via Leech Seed + Leftovers and hopefully stall the opponent out, and even then SubSeed sets are considered to be pretty mediocre. In the case of Spiky Shield, you can Leech Seed on the switch, Spiky Shield on the next turn, and then switch out later. You've now gained a good chunk of health and the opponent loses ~3/8 of their health in that exchange as opposed to just ~2/8. Yeah, your opponent might take advantage of a Spiky Shield turn, but that never stopped Protect from being a standard move on Ferrothorn due to the way it helps Ferrothorn to maximize Leech Seed recovery, and Spiky Shield is a straight upgrade from Protect. That's just where you have to use your own intellect as a player to distinguish what your opponent could set up on you with and when not to use Spiky Shield.

And honestly, Sub + Spikes isn't exactly an enticing combo either. You Sub on the switch, set Spikes as the opponent breaks the Sub, and now you're forced out with less health than you came in with. I'd rather just set Spikes on the switch and switch out of the switch-in while gaining ~12.5% net health with Leftovers.

There are certainly uses to Substitute (scouting switch-ins is pretty useful in general), but Chesnaught is already strapped for moveslots as it is. Substitute doesn't really offer enough substantial perks that would give me incentive to use it over Chesnaught's other moves on a regular basis, much less using it with the intent of making Chesnaught a SubSeeder. Other Options or Moves is fine.
 

Martin

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Grass-type moves are bad on defensive Chesnaught tbh. You are better off just stalling its targets with Leech Seed+Spiky Shield for a turn or two and switching out rather than trying to catch them on the switch. I'm surprised that they are still slashed as there has been lots of talk about why they are inferior throughout the thread.

I don't want to muster up an argument here, but Sub really isn't better than Spiky Shield. Spiky Shield has priority over Substitute, it protects it from Hyper Voice while Substitute does not, you can use it to scout out status attempts anyway, and it is way too slow to use it really effectively. Chesnaught doesn't force a lot of switches (edit: ninja'd). He forces them against things which can't deal heavy damage to it, which isn't much as a lot of things carry coverage for Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T and, now with its rising usage, Chesnaught itself which also happen to hit Chesnaught very hard. In fact, there are enough Fire- or Flying-type coverage moves flying about to the point that a lot of things that wouldn't normally beat Chesnaught (see Garchomp, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Bisharp* etc.) have started carrying attacks to beat said threats which also happen to allow them to lure and KO Chesnaught (Fire Blast Garchomp/Landorus-T, HP Ice Landorus-T, Aerial Ace Bisharp* etc.).

if you are sceptical, I have been seeing an increasing number of Aerial Ace Bisharp to lure and guarantee a 2HKO on Chesnaught after a Defiant boost or 1 spike on switch-in, or OHKO if both conditions are active (boost due to drop from Intimidate, Moonblast, Crunch, Shadow Ball etc.)/with a high roll at +2 boost w/o a spike. Here are some calcs if you are still sceptical:
  • +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 175-207 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 352-416 (92.6 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
VERY noticable difference
  • 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 88-105 (23.1 - 27.6%) -- 4.5% chance to 4HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
  • 252+ Atk Bisharp Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 180-212 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Once again, very noticable here.
  • +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 175-207 (46 - 54.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
  • +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 352-416 (92.6 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Eases prediction vs Chesnaught teams, allowing you to use Sucker Punch and, if they go into Chesnaught, OHKO on the following turn.

This is the wrong place to promote the set, but I was just trying to add to my point, and the idea of Aerial Ace Bisharp was probably kind of wierd, so I thought I'd explain it.

Edit: A spread of 204 HP / 252 Def / 52 Spe lets Chesnaught hit a Leftovers number while also giving it the small perk of outpacing 0 speed Skarmory to catch it with a Leech Seed without losing to any major physical hits (aside from guaranteeing the 2HKO from +2 Bisharp's Iron Head after a spike), which is useful with the declining use of Brave Bird variants in favor of Counter ones. Just a thought.
 
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There is way too much stuff in OO. Condense it down into this:

  • Bulk up may sound appealing, but Chesnaughts low special defense makes it sub-par and and a liability (are there even any viable Bulk Up users in OU to begin with?)
  • Belly drum; however, Chesnaught lacks speed and priority making it pointless.
  • Rock attacks
  • Hammer arm has more power than drain punch, however, drain punch is far superior thank to it's ability to heal chesnaught and the fact that it doesn't lower it's low speed
  • Pain split and synthesis can also be used for recovery. However, leech seed, leftovers, and drain punch are already reliable for chesnaught to recover health and these are generally wastes of a moveslot
  • Roar, Toxic, Taunt
  • Super fang can dwindle down pokemon that chesnaught can't deal with using it's normal STAB moves.
  • Do not worry about Iron Head, Wood Hammer hits Clefable, Gardevoir, Azumarill, and Sylveon harder. It also fails to 2HKO offensive Mega Altaria, and will be rendered completely useless by Roost variants. Get rid of Assault Vest, Chesnaught wants Leech Seed + Spiky Shield + Spikes, running Assault Vest really cuts down on Chesnaught's overall capabilities as a defensive Pokemon.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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To be honest, I'd get rid of bulk up and belly drum, as chesnaught really shouldn't bother setting up, as a defensive Pokemon. If anything, just mentioned why not to use them.

Oh also rocky helmet really shouldn't be a slash, set details at best.

Edit: I suggest changing the set name to physically defensive, as that is just more formal and tank is a bit of a debatable term.

Also, does seed bomb even deserve a slash? If you really want a grass move, wood hammer is perfectly fine.
 
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Martin

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I honestly don't think that there should be any Grass-type STABs listed tbh. They are pretty pointless and their only targets need to be hit on the switch - not to mention that Leech Seed does the same thing while also healing the switch-in without wasting a moveslot on a bad choice of move. If Chesnaught was more offensive, I would say slash Wood Hammer, but the only purposeful way to use Chesnaught in OU is defensively, and therefore it is a bad idea wasting a valuable moveslot on Wood Hammer. Set details mention at the most.

Also what are everyone's thoughts on that spread I mentioned? I'm just interested to see what people think about it. I think that it should get a set details mention at least tbh, but I'm interested in what other people think. (in case you can't remember/are too lazy to scroll up, the spread was 204 HP / 252 Def / 52 Spe, and it hits a Leftovers HP number while coincidentally outpacing 0 speed Skarmory so that you can set up Spikes and pressure a Defog to either get a free switch or to activate Defiant for Pokemon like Thundurus and Bisharp vs. Counter variants)
 
Ill remove belly drum and iron head since they probably wouldn't serve much of a purpose on chesnaught. Ill keep AV in OO for now because I can see potential for it, although it does face competition for conkeldurr. I probably will remove bulk up as well (by the way alfalfa I would argue that conkeldurr and gallade are viable bulk up users, but I digress). In terms of seed bomb, it's just my preference because I've never been a fan of the recoil of wood hammer, I might put it in set details or OO though. And ill put rocky helmet in set details. Marigi174, Ill consider using that spread; however, Ill keep it in set details at the moment.
 
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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Ill remove belly drum and iron head since they probably wouldn't serve much of a purpose on chesnaught. Ill keep AV in OO for now because I can see potential for it, although it does face competition for conkeldurr. I probably will slash bulk up as well (by the way alfalfa I would argue that conkeldurr and gallade are viable bulk up users, but I digress). In terms of seed bomb, it's just my preference because I've never been a fan of the recoil of wood hammer, I might put it in set details or OO though. And ill put rocky helmet in set details. Marigi174, Ill consider using that spread; however, Ill keep it in set details at the moment.
Please remove AV from OO. I'm not QC, but using AV prevents chesnaught from using the essential support moves it has, namely spikes and leech seed.
Wait why would you slash bulk up? If anything, you should just get rid of it, chesnaught should not be boosting, like ever.
 

Karxrida

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Bulk Up and AV are not worth mentioning anywhere. Bulk Up is invalidated by a double Flying weakness (unboosted Mega Pinsir has a chance to OHKO a +2 Chesnaught after Rocks or a tiny amount of prior damage) and numerous Special Attackers, while Chesnaught doesn't have the Speed or priority to capitalize on the Attack boost. AV is bad for the reasons boltsandbombers stated, plus you're running a weaker, easier to deal with AV Conkeldurr that can't touch Lando-T, Dragons, or Psychics.
 

Shurtugal

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Ugh. Personally, I like to use 248 Hp / 156 Def / 106 SpD Impish (iirc, that's the evs, but i may be off by a few points cuz off memory). The defense allows you to live +1 Ice Punch from Tar for the 3HKO iirc, while the SpD are there to help check Keldeo, which honestly has saved me quite a few games.

Also mention that if you're gonna run Wood Hammer, you need enough speed to jump Azu (because lol that's what you'd want to hit). Hammer Arm is never needed in any situation I wouldn't even spare it a mention.

In lower tiers, SubSD Salac Chesnaught is hilarious. You jump base 115 iirc (you hit 372) after a Salac Boost, and Drain Punch / Wood Hammer in correspondence with Sub is an excellent way to maintain your HP. I even used it on a joke in OU and it was decent. Of course, it isn't good enough for an analysis (fight / grass may be a perfect set up vs ferro + wash + landt cores, but lati@s, zardy, etc. walls the shit outta this), but an OO mention should suffice imo. It's plausible to sweep with this if you offer heavy support, even if it may not be worth it too much.
 
Ugh. Personally, I like to use 248 Hp / 156 Def / 106 SpD Impish (iirc, that's the evs, but i may be off by a few points cuz off memory). The defense allows you to live +1 Ice Punch from Tar for the 3HKO iirc, while the SpD are there to help check Keldeo, which honestly has saved me quite a few games.

Also mention that if you're gonna run Wood Hammer, you need enough speed to jump Azu (because lol that's what you'd want to hit). Hammer Arm is never needed in any situation I wouldn't even spare it a mention.

In lower tiers, SubSD Salac Chesnaught is hilarious. You jump base 115 iirc (you hit 372) after a Salac Boost, and Drain Punch / Wood Hammer in correspondence with Sub is an excellent way to maintain your HP. I even used it on a joke in OU and it was decent. Of course, it isn't good enough for an analysis (fight / grass may be a perfect set up vs ferro + wash + landt cores, but lati@s, zardy, etc. walls the shit outta this), but an OO mention should suffice imo. It's plausible to sweep with this if you offer heavy support, even if it may not be worth it too much.
Hammer arm isn't worth it anymore as chesnaught has access to drain punch allowing him to reliable recover his health while dishing out pain complementing his defensive prowess. I like the way u think with the subSD salac. I don't know if it will make it past Q/C but I would be open to the idea. Ill also consider the spread u gave me; however chesnaught probably shouldn't be staying in on Keldeo unless it has a grass type stab move.
 

Shurtugal

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Hammer arm isn't worth it anymore as chesnaught has access to drain punch allowing him to reliable recover his health while dishing out pain complementing his defensive prowess. I like the way u think with the subSD salac. I don't know if it will make it past Q/C but I would be open to the idea. Ill also consider the spread u gave me; however chesnaught probably shouldn't be staying in on Keldeo unless it has a grass type stab move.
Nah. Most of the time you switch into Keldeo and Scald / Secret Sword does absolutely nothing. From there you can just leech seed. Keldeo has no business staying in and risking Wood Hammer anyway, and even if it doesn't believe a Wood Hammer bluff, Leech Seed stalling would easily defeat it, so it'd switch out regardless, allowing you to set up free Leeches or Spikes.

EDIT: Most Keldeo are choiced; and most won't risk using HP Flying on something like, say, ferro or heatran. Also, its because it's choiced that it'll switch out. Even specs will do nothing. I didn't forget anything.
 
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But still since most Keldeos are choiced, it's better to use spiky shield to find out what move it will lock itself into and then safely switch out. Also u forgot about HP flying.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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But still since most Keldeos are choiced, it's better to use spiky shield to find out what move it will lock itself into and then safely switch out. Also u forgot about HP flying.
HP Flying is becoming a lot less viable these days due to the significant decrease in usage of mega Venusaur, so icy wind is generally the better choice - which still puts a decent hurt on chesnaught.
 

Shurtugal

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252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 106 SpD Chesnaught: 149-176 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Chesnaught: 141-166 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I agree that Icy wind hurts, but again most Keldeo won't risk locking themselves into Icy Wind (especially early game plays - use Icy Wind and risk the opponent staying in a firing off a 60%+ move?). I feel like the evs are a decent addition for those who seek for a Keldeo check in Ches - I never claimed it countered (I dont think i did anyway) but the evs give it an extra buff.

EDIT: My post mentions that my memory could be off base. I'm sure I meant 104. Thanks for nitpicking. (Next time address the bulk of what my post was saying rather than wasting a line nitpicking at something meaningless - you're a badged user srsly.)
 
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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 106 SpD Chesnaught: 149-176 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Chesnaught: 141-166 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I agree that Icy wind hurts, but again most Keldeo won't risk locking themselves into Icy Wind (especially early game plays - use Icy Wind and risk the opponent staying in a firing off a 60%+ move?). I feel like the evs are a decent addition for those who seek for a Keldeo check in Ches - I never claimed it countered (I dont think i did anyway) but the evs give it an extra buff.
Fyi 106 EVs don't give you another stat point, not exactly sure if you realized that. All EVs have to be multiples for 4 to work.
Edit: how is it wasting a post lol, that was all I had to say :P No need to get so upset.
 
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