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Chinchou (BW2 Revamp) [QC: 3/3] [GP: 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Gengan, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. Gengan

    Gengan

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    [​IMG]
    Am I a stoned fish or...?

    Current Stage: Finished
    QC: Ray Jay, elevator_music, blarajan
    GP: GatoDelFuego, melvni

    [Overview]

    <p>From the cold, dark depths of the great Johto sea comes a fish that strikes fear into the hearts of Electric-types everywhere. Chinchou is the only Water / Electric type in Little Cup, which lets it check Electric-types while damaging opposing Water-types like Staryu. Chinchou's ability to deal with Electric-types is further improved by its wonderful ability, Volt Absorb. Not only does it give Chinchou an immunity to Electric attacks, but it also heals Chinchou each time it activates; this makes even Water / Ground types jealous of Chinchou's ability to switch into Electric-type attacks. Chinchou's typing and ability are backed by a fabulous base 75 HP stat and a decent base 67 Speed stat. Finally, the best thing ever given to this floppy fish is Volt Switch, which gives Chinchou a brand new role as a scout. Even Ground-types fear Chinchou because it can blast them with a Hydro Pump and continue on its way. It also has a movepool as deep as the sea it came from, with both offensive and defensive options at its disposal, including the coveted Heal Bell.</p>

    <p>With so many amazing qualities, you might wonder why Chinchou isn't on every Little Cup team in existence. However, despite being a versatile Pokemon overall, Chinchou is held back by its other, less impressive attributes. It has very pitiful Defense, making the Fighting-types common throughout Little Cup a major threat to it. Chinchou also has subpar Special Attack, which means any attempt at being an offensive threat will be a rather weak one. Its Special Defense isn't good either, so Chinchou won't be taking hits if it isn't equipped with an Eviolite. Its Speed is also average, causing it to be outsped by fast attackers. However, despite all of its shortcomings, Chinchou manages to be a threat in LC; if you're not careful, Chinchou will drag you down to the deepest trench in the ocean and make you its prey.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Eviolite Offensive
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Volt Switch / Thunderbolt
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass
    move 4: Heal Bell
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Volt Absorb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 52 Def / 232 SAtk / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Chinchou's most versatile set. With it, Chinchou can be a great special attacker while also supporting its team with Heal Bell. Hydro Pump is a must, as Chinchou needs it to ensure the highest damage output possible. Volt Switch is a great scouting move, and it deals good damage with STAB and the given EVs. However, as using Volt Switch forces Chinchou to switch out, Thunderbolt can be used as a more reliable attack at the expense of losing opportunities to gain momentum. Hidden Power Grass is used for opposing Chinchou, which can take both Hydro Pump and Volt Switch or Thunderbolt with ease. Heal Bell is the icing on the cake; with it, Chinchou can relieve itself and its teammates from any status conditions at the cost of a single turn. With the combination of Volt Absorb and Heal Bell, Chinchou fills the role of a cleric nicely.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>With the given EV spread and Eviolite, Chinchou has 24 / 15 / 18 defenses, 16 Special Attack, and 16 Speed. This means Chinchou will match up well with almost anything in the tier so long as it's not Grass-typed. Drilbur in sand, however, is also troubling to Chinchou. Despite being able to hit it with Hydro Pump, Chinchou can't outspeed in sand, and its Electric typing means that Drilbur can easily OHKO it with Earthquake. Snover or Scarf Porygon make excellent teammates to deal with Drilbur. Another troubling opponent is Lileep, which blocks Hydro Pump with Storm Drain, takes little damage from anything else, and can KO Chinchou with Giga Drain. Mienfoo and Timburr can easily dispatch Lileep, and Mienfoo enjoys having any burns inflicted to it healed away by Chinchou's Heal Bell. Misdreavus, with her high Special Defense, can handle all of Chinchou's attacks with ease and start wreaking havoc. Scraggy and Murkrow can both get rid of Misdreavus, and both of them receive aid in return; with Heal Bell support, Scraggy can use Moxie instead of Shed Skin and have an easier time sweeping teams. In Murkrow's case, Chinchou can take pesky Thunderbolts and Thunder Waves for it due to Volt Absorb, while Murkrow can help remove Grass-types for Chinchou.</p>

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Heal Bell / Discharge
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Volt Absorb
    nature: Bold
    evs: 76 HP / 132 Def / 228 SDef / 60 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Say hello to the number one Murkrow counter to ever exist in Little Cup: RestTalk Chinchou. Most Murkrow are strong enough to harm offensive Chinchou even with resisted Brave Bird and then finish it off with Sucker Punch. With this set, however, the case is different. This Chinchou takes very little from Brave Bird and can avoid Sucker Punch with Rest and Sleep Talk. Poor old Murkrow now has no choice but to flee the scene and is forever embarrassed by the fact that it is now a bird that can't beat a fish. Scald is preferred over Surf or Hydro Pump because it can spread burns despite being very weak. Heal Bell is again used to remove status, and it works well in conjunction with RestTalk because it can wake up Chinchou early. However, Discharge can help spread paralysis and OHKO Murkrow. It's also useful in stopping Croagunk, who otherwise walls this set to hell and back thanks to Dry Skin.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>With Eviolite and the given spread, Chinchou reaches a sturdy 18 Defense and 24 Special Defense, which makes dealing damage to it difficult. However, as Chinchou is relying on two attacks or even just one to deal damage to the opposing team, it's going to be walled by many more Pokemon than its other sets. If Chinchou is not running Discharge, Water-types such as Tirtouga or Omanyte can set up in its face and put its team in a tough spot. Opposing Chinchou with Hidden Power Grass are even more threatening, walling this Chinchou thoroughly no matter what attacks it carries. Lileep can effortlessly stop all three of these Pokemon thanks to Storm Drain. Croagunk, using its Dry Skin ability, can easily scare out Chinchou; therefore, Pokemon that can take advantage of Croagunk's Poison typing such as Abra and Drilbur and Fire-types to exploit Dry Skin such as Ponyta and Houndour make for good teammates.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 2: Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Volt Switch
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Volt Absorb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 232 SpA / 52 Def / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Chinchou has a decent Speed stat that is more than good enough to make a Choice Scarf set viable. With a Scarf, Chinchou hits 24 Speed, which outspeeds every unboosted Pokemon in the tier and even outspeeds Dragon Dance Scaggy. Hydro Pump is used for more power, while Surf is an option for better accuracy. Thunderbolt is Chinchou's main way of using its Electric STAB, but due to the problems of locking itself into Thunderbolt, Volt Switch is a good move to use when one is wary of an Electric resist switching in. Ice Beam is for the pesky Grass-types such as Lileep that tend to switch into Chinchou. Ice Beam also offers additional coverage to widen the pool of Pokemon that Chinchou can revenge kill.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Without an Eviolite, Chinchou will not be taking hits. That means anything that can outspeed it will have a good chance to KO it. Chinchou's frailty is made worse by the fact that Chinchou has to switch out to change moves, which can make it setup fodder for many threats. Mienfoo can help Chinchou deal with this to an extent by forming a VoltTurn core with it, which helps the two check each other's counters by Volt Switching and U-Turning back and forth.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Agility
    move 1: Agility
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Thunderbolt
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Ice Beam
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Volt Absorb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 232 SpA / 52 SpD / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>What used to be a threatening force is now the equivalent of a war veteran; although it did well in its time (the previous generation), this set now needs tons of support to work in the same way. With a single boost, Agility Chinchou hits 32 Speed, outspeeding everything in Little Cup. This would be great if Chinchou had stellar defenses to back it up, but it must use Life Orb instead of Eviolite in order to deal a sufficient amount of damage. These weak defenses make setting up much harder. This issue is compounded by Chinchou's four-moveslot syndrome; whatever attacking moves it carries, there will always be Pokemon that wall it. Choosing between Hidden Power Grass and Ice Beam depends on what you need to hit. The former gets rid of opposing Chinchou, but leaves you helpless against Grass-types; the latter is the exact opposite. Hidden Power Grass is recommended because the only thing Ice Beam hits that Hydro Pump or Surf and Thunderbolt don't hit is Grass-types, and opposing Chinchou with Eviolite can actually beat this set one on one should it not carry Hidden Power Grass.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Depending on the fourth move you chose, the teammates you need will change drastically. If you opt for Hidden Power Grass, then Grass-types become a major problem. Therefore, Fire-types such as Houndour and Larvesta can help deal with them. Murkrow can also be helpful. If you go with Ice Beam, then Chinchou are problematic. Lileep, Snover, and even Foongus can help out with this.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Chinchou has a movepool that ranges from the ocean floor it lives on to the clouds it often gets carried away to by its predators. It has so many options that tons of sets instantly come to mind. Sadly, not all of them are good. Water Absorb is Chinchou's Dream World Ability, and while it sounds good on a sand team, Lileep uses an immunity to Water-type attacks (Storm Drain) much better. Chinchou has many physical moves at its disposal, but due to its low Attack stat, it is unable to use them effectively. Rain Dance seems like a fun way to power up Hydro Pump and utilize Thunder, but rain is generally unviable in Little Cup and Chinchou doesn't have a moveslot for it. If you have Snover on your team, you can run Blizzard over Ice Beam, but it's really situational and Ice Beam is almost always better due to the presence of Sand in Little Cup. Chinchou also has access to Confuse Ray and Screech, but these usually amount to no more than gimmicks and shouldn't be run over the listed sets without a very specific purpose in mind. Psybeam can be used to get a surprise hit on Croagunk, but doing so will force Chinchou to lose precious coverage. Toxic can be used on the RestTalk set to help beat Lileep in a stall war, but it does not fit with the purpose of the RestTalk set and would require nearly an entirely different set to work properly. Substitute might sound good with Chinchou's high HP stat, but Heal Bell completely outclasses it in status blocking, and Chinchou isn't meant to take hits. Hidden Power Fire might be useful for hitting Snover as well as stopping Steel-types such as Bronzor and especially Ferroseed, which walls Chinchou horribly, but it's best to leave those pests to Fire-types. Bronzor isn't 2HKOed by Hidden Power Fire and is hit harder by Surf anyway.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>If you're hungry, you can chop up Chinchou into sushi, which is exactly what Munchlax does to this poor fish. Nothing Chinchou can do will hurt Munchlax, which can just use Earthquake to shake up a little fishy stir-fry. Lileep has Storm Drain and Giga Drain to easily dispose of Chinchou. Misdreavus can easily KO thanks to her good Speed and unusually high Special Defense. Timburr and Shed Skin Scraggy can counter the RestTalk set without fear of Scald burns and set up. Foongus, Shroomish, and even Cacnea can threaten Chinchou with their Grass STABs, but they fear Ice Beam. Drilbur can OHKO with Earthquake, and Snover and Ferroseed wall Chinchou to hell and back while only fearing the rare Hidden Power Fire. Diglett can trap Chinchou and OHKO it if it gets a free switch. Murkrow can severely damage non-RestTalk Chinchou with Sucker Punch. Almost all faster threats with physical moves can easily prey on Chinchou and make it their dinner.</p>
  2. Lord of the Fireflies

    Lord of the Fireflies

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    Counters:
    - Grass-types set up all over it (Foongus, Shroomish, Cottonee, Budew, Cacnea, etc)
    - Scraggy with Shed Skin can set up BU and DD without fear of status.
    - Wooper with Water Absorb?
  3. Gengan

    Gengan

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    I refuse to add Budew and Wooper because no one use them. Everything else was put in.
  4. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    This may be personal preference but I would put the rest talk set higher in the order as it is probably the most effective set in this metagame.

    Also, for the Choice Scarf set do not slash Volt Switch with Heal Bell. Volt Switch is probably the most important move on Choice Scarf Chinchou as it allows you to completely regain momentum if your opponent switches in a counter. Obviously Ground types are an issue when using Volt Switch, but most will be fearful of being hit by a SE Water move on the switch-in. Infact I probably wouldn't slash Heal Bell with anything on that set and just ignore completely; it just doesn't fit imo.

    Diglett should be mentioned in the counters as it can remove Chinchou if it gets a free switch in.
    You also haven't mentioned Croagunk once, it completely walls the rest talk set and does very well against the other sets.
    I'd mention HP Grass in the AC of the first set as it allows Chinchou to beat other Chinchou.
    I'm not sure why Houndour is mentioned on the Choice Scarf set, it seems like the oddest pokemon to mention, no player in their right minds would switch in Houndour to Chinchou.
    I feel that Heal Bell should be the primary option in the RestTalk set as it's mainly used as a cleric and it allows Chinchou to wake up early.

    Feel free to completely ignore this, I'm not QC after all ;)

    MACLE SUPPORTS THIS POST
  5. Gengan

    Gengan

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    K, let me list in order what you put:

    1. I didn't really take any notice to the order I put the sets in. I didn't think it mattered.
    2. I'll remove Heal Bell (that's dumb anyway since no one wants to be locked into Heal Bell >.<)
    3. I'll mention Diglett
    4. I'll add Croagunk too.
    5. I'll add HP grass
    6. It can switch into HP Fire on the scarf set since it has Flash Fire and chou would be locked into it
    7. I'll fix that.

    MACLE IS A SUBTLE BABE <3
  6. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    The second set is absolutely hideous. You can't go defensive Chinchou with three offensive moves, it just doesn't work. Either go Eviolite Offensive or turn it into an actual defensive set.
  7. Gengan

    Gengan

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    Added, and I added everything charmander gave me on irc.
  8. iss

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    You changed the name of the set and didn't change anything else....

    Also Agility needs Life Orb. I don't even know if Agility is worth a set anymore, it needs an entire team for support and Shell Smashers are pretty much better. Can other QC members weigh in on this?
  9. Gengan

    Gengan

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    You SAID "either change the name to Eviolite Offensive or make it a defensive set." If you mean, "All Out Eviolite Offensive" then I can do that.

    Also, RayJay already told me to make an agility set. I'll add the Life Orb though.
  10. iss

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    I didn't say to change the name, I said to change the entire set. When is a set with defensive EVs a offensive set?
  11. Gengan

    Gengan

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    Okay, so I misunderstood what you were saying. It's all fixed now.
  12. iss

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    ...

    You STILL have maximum Special Defense, which is completely incomprehensible. In addition, Surf is listed over Hydro Pump, which Chinchou desperately needs to do damage. Ice Beam is useless. Volt Switch and Heal Bell are definitely needed on the set.

    At this point, I'm wondering if you've even used Chinchou at all. You seem to have no idea how some of the most common Chinchou sets work...
  13. Gengan

    Gengan

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    .-. okay chill. I've used Chinchou plenty of times before. And you said to make it offensive so I did. If it's that important, I'll add Heal Bell, Volt Switch, and Hydro Pump, and also remove Ice Beam. I'll fix the EVs too because you'll rip my head off if I don't.

    This is only my second analysis, iss. Remember that I'm not perfect and that I make mistakes and misunderstand what you're trying to say.
  14. Danilo

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    I don't know if iss wanted them to be the first slash but i think they need to be. If Thunderbolt doesn't miss out on any very significant OHKOs, 2HKOs, then Volt Switch really needs to be the first option. Gaining momentum and being ahead without having to make any difficult predictions is huge. HP Grass is good for other Chinchou's. Maybe not slash worthy but def AC worthy.

    Remove Ice Beam from all sets. It's bad. All of your AC's, with the exception of the first two, need a lot more elaboration. remove the houndour mention lol. Dont mention Heal Bell on the agility set. Same with Toxic. Remove Wooper and maybe Budew in CC.

    That's it. I'm not on qc but i think these suggestions will be agreed on for the most part.
  15. Gengan

    Gengan

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    I was told by charmander to add Budew and Wooper since they can counter even though they're rare. em said we shouldn't encourage Wooper usage so that's out. Everything else will be done.
  16. iss

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    Deslash Surf on the Eviolite set and put Hidden Power Grass over Hidden Power Fire. Hidden Power Fire should be in Other Options. Volt Switch should be the primary slash over Thunderbolt. Hidden Power Grass over Fire in all other circumstances as well.
  17. spuds4ever

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    I would like to just chip in that I ice beam is not useless IMO. Dragon types are more common than they were with axew getting superpower and dratini getting marvel scale. It also lets you do more to stuff like foongus and shroomish. Ice beam>HP fire on the scarf set, you won't be revenging much with HP fire really.

    All other iss' changes are good though. HP grass over fire somewhere. Water absorb also needs more mentions as it stops porygon from ruining your day.
  18. Rowan

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    Agreeing with this. HP fire is only useful for Ferroseed. HP Grass is only useful for other Chinchou (and Wooper but really?). All the other steel types are hit harder by Hydro Pump, all other water types are hit harder by Thunderbolt. Ice Beam stops Dragons setting up on you, whilst hitting most grass types slightly harder. I think it deserves to at least get a slash with HP Grass.
  19. iss

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    You aren't 2HKOing Grass- or Dragon-types anyways, so you'd prefer to Volt Switch because Dragon-types can set up + kill you and Grass-types can just Giga Drain. It is okay on the Scarf set, though.
  20. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Admittedly, Eviolite Offensive or whatever you are gonna call it should probably be the first set, because it's essentially a more "standard" take on Chinchou; RestTalk needs to highlight how it specifically is the better Murkrow counter and gets its usefulness from the fact that most Flying-type resistances lack recovery. I don't like using Hidden Power Fire on Chinchou in my experience, it's pretty similar to Staryu in that regard; you get to hit Ferroseed by surprise, but so much of the metagame checks Grass- and Steel-types that I just don't see the merit over Hidden Power Grass, which allows you to beat Chinchou, especially those variants such as Scarf and RestTalk to an extent which you can safely switch into. So unless there's reason to HP Fire besides "lol Ferroseed", that's something I'd consider. I'd say Agility still merits a set, but it's definitely the last one that should be listed, and has to be built as the star of the team to even come close to working. Furthermore, the set doesn't technically "bluff a Scarf" since you will likely be using Agility turn 1 in the hyper late game and if you attack in the early game, you will show your Life Orb recoil. Implement these, and expand the checks and counters section just a bit more, and I approve.
    [QC]1/3[/QC]

    Also, and this is kind of a side note, but the attitude of both parties involved in your little argument above is unacceptable. I don't want to see stuff like this in a thread again; we're working together, act like it.
  21. Gengan

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    Everything was put in. If I missed something just mention it.
  22. iss

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    48 HP EVs don't provide anything for Chinchou. 52 Defense EVs are the only viable stat to add.
  23. Ray Jay

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    Are you sure? My PS doesn't give a stat change until 76 EVs in HP o.O
  24. spuds4ever

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    ??? Ice beam easily 2hkoes eviolite axew and non bulky dratini while outspeeding them both, unless I'm misunderstanding this statement. Idk how much it does to the shrooms as honko is still fixing up his calc for LC (anyone got any suggestions for a good one to use?) but having a move that allows you to beat grass types (though lileep and snover will need a fair bit of prior damage) rather than having to use another teammate (more often than not is also SR weak) I think is definitely worth a slash.
  25. iss

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    Axew and Dratini aren't exactly common. Ice Beam on Scarf is fine, as it is meant to revenge kill these sweepers. You only 3HKO bulky Grass-types, and Lileep, Foongus, Shroomish, and Snover all carry Giga Drain, making trying to kill them pretty futile. If you're an Eviolite sweeping Chinchou, you would much prefer to Volt Switch.

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