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Claydol (Update) [Approval 3/2] [GP 2/2] (Done)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Triangles, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. Triangles

    Triangles

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    [Overview]

    <p>Does your team need a spinner who isn't vulnerable to the Spikes it deals with? Does your team need a half-decent check to Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Salamence, and the likes of Flygon and Jirachi? Does your team need a resistance to the QuakeSlide combination? If you answered yes to any or all of the above questions then Claydol is an ideal fit for your team. However, Claydol is not without its issues. Firstly, its ability to check threats such as Tyranitar is substantially lowered because it may fall to two Crunches from a Boah or Luretar set, and if one wishes to conserve Claydol for later purposes, it is sometimes necessary to switch in order to scout a moveset, which could put you on the back foot very early in the game.</p>

    <p>Claydol also sports six weaknesses, including those to the very common attacking types, Water and Ice. These weaknesses don't do the ancient doll any favors. Claydol also has paltry offensive stats and a lack of phazing moves, which leaves it as complete setup fodder for the likes of CurseLax, Dragon Dance Gyarados, Calm Mind Celebi, and Calm Mind Suicune. Although Claydol is very durable and lasts a long time in most stall-oriented matches—Claydol is much more suited to being featured on and against stall teams—one must remember that Claydol cannot deal any real damage to most standard teams if your opponent makes the appropriate switches.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Utility
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Psychic
    move 4: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire / Rest
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The idea behind this set is simple—switch in whenever possible and remove any Spikes from your side of the field by using Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin is listed first on this set as it is the move that differentiates Claydol from other Ground-types in OU, and is an excellent supporting move. In drawn-out games, the deciding factor is often who has control of the hazards on the field, and Rapid Spin allows you to exert some control, and also give teams that rely on hazardstrouble. Earthquake is a powerful STAB move that can damage Tyranitar decently and force it out.</p>

    <p> Psychic is used in the third slot to threaten Gengar and allow Claydol to spin with more ease against it, and act as a check to it to a certain extent. Ice Beam is slashed first in the fourth moveslot because with it Claydol is a good answer to Dragon Dance Salamence and an excellent one to Flygon. Hidden Power Fire is a fairly decent option on Claydol over Ice Beam, as it deals more damage to Skarmory than anything else Claydol can do,and also destroys Forretress, who can otherwise be a major annoyance to the ancient doll. Rest can also be used in the fourth slot, as it increases Claydol's longevity and removes its vulnerability to status, although Claydol is usually used on stall teams that carry a cleric, and Ice Beam and Hidden Power Fire allow Claydol to cover more threats in the short-term than Rest otherwise would.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The primary reason to use Claydol over other Ground-types such as Swampert and Flygon is its access to Rapid Spin. Claydol is also often chosen over Swampert thanks to its ability, Levitate, and over Flygon for its lack of a 4x weakness to Ice. This set aims to make the best possible use of Rapid Spin with a defensively based EV spread that aims to keep Claydol alive and well so that it can remove Spikes multiple times. Maximum EV investment in HP allows for decent all-around bulk. The EVs are focused mainly on Defense so that Claydol can take physical barrages optimally, such as Tyrantiar's Rock Slides, but 40 EVs are invested in Special Defense to avoid the 2HKO from Tyranitar's Crunches most of the time; they also help in dealing with Gengar and Jirachi. 96 EVs can be shifted into Attack to always 2HKO 4 HP Dragon Dance Tyranitar with Earthquake, or 144 EVs into Special Attack in order to OHKO Dragon Dance Salamence with Ice Beam.</p>

    <p>Good teammates for Claydol include Electric-types such as Raikou, in order to check the bulky Water-types that Claydol struggles against. Zapdos works especially well as it can also safely cover Dragon Dance Gyarados, as well as Swampert with a specially defensive EV spread and Hidden Power Grass. Claydol helps defend Raikou against the Ground-type attacks that it dislikes, such as Earthquakes from Flygon. The ancient doll also defends Zapdos from Rock-type attacks, such as Rock Slide from Tyranitar. Heracross is also a good partner for Claydol, because Heracross covers threats to Claydol, such as CurseLax, Blissey, Swampert, and other bulky Water-types, such as Milotic, to an extent. In return, Claydol stops Heracross from being Spikes fodder for Skarmory and checks Salamence.</p>

    <p>Claydol appreciates Wish support due to its lack of reliable recovery—prime candidates for this are Vaporeon and Jirachi. The former acts as a backup check to Tyranitar and Salamence (especially if Tyranitar is a LureTar which Claydol can't deal with), while the latter has decent type synergy with Claydol. It resists the Grass- and Ice-type moves that Claydol dislikes, while Claydol covers Tyranitar, which threatens Jirachi. Jirachi is also able to switch in fairly well on bulky Water-types, Shadow Ball Snorlax, Regice, and specially defensive Zapdos. Pursuit users, such as Tyranitar and Houndoom, are also good partners, because despite increasing the team's overall Water weakness, they remove Ghost-types that attempt to block Claydol's attempts at spinning. Skarmory deserves a mention, as between the two of them, every physical attacking type is resisted; the two physical types that Skarmory is neutral to, Fighting and Rock, are resisted by Claydol. </p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Claydol can make use of either Light Screen or Reflect on one of its moveslots (besides Rapid Spin and Earthquake), or even both on the same set. However, in stall-based games (probably the games that are most likely to feature Claydol), screens are poorer options as five turns in ADV can often consist of only switches, support moves, and resisted attacks. Also, because there is a definitive answer to almost every sweeper in ADV (aside from the rare Flail or Reversal users), and because there is no Pokemon that is overpowered enough to muscle through its usual checks (when they're healthy) behind screens, using Light Screen or Reflect is a comparatively poor option.</p>

    <p> Toxic is a fairly decent option on Claydol to wear down the bulky Water-types that tend to switch in on it, and is also notable for enabling Claydol to turn the tables on non-Resting Dusclops and Cloyster, who can keep Spikes up against Claydol otherwise. However, Toxic lowers Claydol's utility and ability to check certain threats overall, due to the fact that using Toxic means removing another key move from the set. Also, the abundance of Rest and/or Heal Bell or Aromatherapy in ADV lowers Toxic's overall effectiveness. Explosion is also an option to cause some surprise damage and open an opposing team up to a threatening sweeper, but it is not really suited to Claydol because once it is down, opposing Spikes users are free to set up and force multiple switches. Claydol's Explosion is also comparatively weak and may not OHKO opponents such as a healthy Suicune, for example.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Bulky Water-types, such as Milotic, Suicune, and Swampert, are the bane of Claydol's existence, as they are capable of shrugging off Earthquakes and can hit back hard with powerful super effective Surfs. Suicune in particular is an excellent Claydol counter, being able to set up on it freely with Calm Mind, and not particularly fearing Toxic thanks to Rest. Cloyster also gets a mention, because if Cloyster is the source of Spikes for a team, then Claydol will have difficulty keeping Spikes off the field. Every time Claydol removes Spikes, Cloyster can switch right back into it and set them up again. However, Cloyster must watch out for Toxic. Hidden Power Bug or Toxic Forretress can beat Claydol one-on-one, and thus is able to keep its team's Spikes up against Claydol. However, Forretress must watch out for Hidden Power Fire before taking Claydol on.</p>

    <p>Dusclops is a very good Claydol counter, as it can block its attempts to Rapid Spin with ease. It can also easily take any attack that Claydol dishes out and retaliate with Shadow Ball. The bandaged spinblocker also doesn't fear Toxic when carrying Rest. Calm Mind Celebi does not fear anything Claydol has to dish out, and can boost multiple times freely on it. However, it should be emphasized that Leech Seed Celebi is not a Claydol counter as Rapid Spin's gargantuan 64 PP far outlasts Leech Seed's meager 16. Dragon Dance Gyarados is immune to Earthquake, takes little from Ice Beam and, like Celebi, can set up on Claydol freely. However, it should be noted that Gyarados should Taunt first against Claydol to scout for a harmful Toxic. Regice is a very good answer to Claydol, having good all-around bulk and a powerful Ice Beam.</p>

    <p>Heracross is also a decent answer to Claydol, resisting Earthquake, taking Ice Beams well with its fairly decent Special Defense stat, and hitting back with a vicious STAB super effective Megahorn. However it should be noted that Heracross is unable to switch into Claydol's Psychic multiple times, and must predict to get in safely. Curse Snorlax takes little from uninvested Earthquakes and can set up on Claydol, potentially readying itself for a sweep. Blissey walls Claydol all day, especially Calm Mind variants who can set up freely on it.</p>
  2. gene

    gene GENE
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    claydol should always have ice beam. the set should be rapid spin / earthquake / ice beam / psychic or toxic. i'd say that psychic is heavily recommended to hit gengar, as claydol then becomes a decent check against it.

    i'd move rest and explosion to other options.
  3. meteor64

    meteor64

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    I don't like this argument since you can say the same thing about Forretress and Cloyster. I'd try approaching this from a different angle- i.e, Claydol's Explosion is comparitively weak and has trouble finding a spot on its already crowded moveset to justify being used commonly.
  4. Danilo

    Danilo
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    There's really no need for all those SpA EVs...
  5. meteor64

    meteor64

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    I think its for the OHKO on Flygon, also gets chance to OHKO on Banded Mence
  6. Danilo

    Danilo
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    i still don't think it's worth the huge decrease in bulk. Flygon isn't beating you anyway and you're not beating BandMence because it's just gonna do 40~ percent and switch out
  7. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush

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    Huh I kinda agree with those SAtk EVs being utterly bullshit... any smart player would, you know, just switch his Dragon. If there's a situation where the dragon stays against Claydol, it's probably on lategame, where they aren't full HP anymore, so yea I don't see a big reason to sacrifice a bunch of defensive EVs for this.
  8. Giga Punch

    Giga Punch "No I'm not a porn star but I eat somebody"
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    Yes......

    Taking less damage and more hits is much more productive than the chance at an OHKO on Salamence or Flygon. Make a mention of how wish support really helps Claydol's longevity with Vaporeon being a great partner helping to check tyranitar, salamence, and the like even better. You need to make a mention of Jirachi somewhere. Claydol resists psychic and is immune thunderbolt commonly found on most jirachi sets. It also has high special defense, decent hp, and STAB earthquake to hit it with. It does need to watch out for offensive sets using hp grass or ice punch as well defensive sets with high hp that utilize wish as without attack evs you only 3hko him but nonetheless it serves as a check.

    Defensive wish Jirachi also functions as a good teammate passing wishes and dealing some of the pokemon that can switch into claydol with ease such as most waters (bar swampert and gyarados), specially defensive zapdos (to an extent) , Regice, EQ less Snorlax and so forth. Tyranitar while adding to the water weakness of a team serves as a good teammate. It cuts off leftovers for many of Claydol's counters and using Pursuit on Tyranitar can make Claydol's job of rapid spinning much easier against teams that utilize ghosts. Rest on Claydol becomes a better option provided you have Heal Bell on your team. List Hidden Power Fire in other options. It makes things much easier against toxic or hidden power bug Forretress and does more to Skarmony than any of your other moves. Mention Regice as a counter and the fact that restless Claydol will usually not win against Forretress that use hidden power bug or toxic.
  9. Triangles

    Triangles

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    Ok - I will edit in the suggested changes and rejig the spread up a bit.

    EDIT: changes edited in so its good for approvals or more feedback
  10. Desolate

    Desolate

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    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 1/2
  11. cookie

    cookie Administrator
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    Rest is pretty much not necessary if you have a cleric, because if you're smart you can keep it alive for a while bar status. Agreeing with Ice Beam: scaring the shit out of Salamence is essential and it actually makes it a Flygon counter.
  12. Triangles

    Triangles

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    I'm going to be away for 5 days going mackerel fishing so I won't be able to update the OP with changes or notify additional approvals in the title. :)

    (What a useless 150th post.)

    EDIT: I actually managed to change the spread up so that its closer to the one suggested by g80 in the below post - I've kept 236 HP EVs because it's only dropping a couple of points for a Lefties numero.

    EDIT 2: I have decided to go with max HP in the end because I seem to be rather outnumbered - and Leftovers numbers are a bit irrelevant as well - it's a minor thing. Hopefully the new spread is better.
  13. gene

    gene GENE
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    should have 252 hp evs. i don't recommend using max defense. instead, i'd split between defense and spdef (enough for 310 or so defense, rest in special). this is to take zapdos hp grass and gengar ice punch better when you need to. special attack evs on claydol aren't bullshit btw, i always used them, but not enough to get the 225 spatk or whatever you needed to ohko cbmence. ohkos aren't all you should strive for in 3rd gen, just being able to hit stuff like celebi harder on the switch helps a lot.
  14. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    I agree with gene.
    Max HP is the best option.

    Also you could mention how skarmory + claydol resist every physical attack (skarm resist every physical attack but rock and fighting, which are resisted by claydol).
  15. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush

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    Good enough to be GP checked.

    Approved [2/2]
  16. Danilo

    Danilo
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    This EV spread is very very inefficient.

    1. If you're going to be running Special Attack EVs at all, you're going to have to invest to where you OHKO bulky Dragon Dance Salamence. The EVs you have right now are useless. The 20 Special Attack EVs don't force things like Celebi to Recover unless you have Spikes up, as without Spikes you're only doing about 37-40%. Celebi then gains leftovers, and threatens you out with Calm Mind or Hidden Power Grass / Giga Drain.

    2. The Special Defense EVs are not needed and belong in the Additional Comments. Claydol's job is limited to one niche and only one: checking the likes of Tyranitar, Salamence, and Flygon. Claydol is not a mixed wall and it should not be played like one. Using Special Defense EVs encourages the reader of the analysis to take a Ice Punch or a super effective Hidden Power which means that Claydol will not be healthy enough to take down Dragon Dance Salamence and Tyranitar.

    In summary
    • The Special Defense EVs deter the reader from using Claydol's only niche, checking Tyranitar, Salamence, and Flygon. With the Special Defense EVs, you become a much worse check to the aforementioned threats, thus weakening its niche.
    • The Special Attacks EVs barely accomplish anything and should be moved to Defense to ensure that Claydol is always healty enough to check Tyranitar, Salamence, and Flygon

    The EV spread should be 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD. The AC of the set should also emphasize the legitimacy of removing Defense and Special Defense EVs to score an OHKO on Dragon Dance Salamence. Finally, leave a more mixed defensive set in the OO or give it a small AC mention.
  17. gene

    gene GENE
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    the 20 spatk evs should go into defense on the main set. using enough evs to hit ~200 spatk or so should be listed as an option though.

    no, claydol's only purpose in life isn't to be a tyranitar/salamence/flygon "check". no, you're not supposed to stay in on celebi and keep ice beaming it. and no, 252 hp / 252 def isn't the only good ev spread for claydol.
  18. Danilo

    Danilo
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    Claydol's job is to check Tyranitar, Flygon, and Salamence(in addition to spinning ofc). The Special Defense EVs are useless because Claydol shouldn't be taking Special Attacks. The only reason Pokemon like Skarmory, Forretress, and Blissey invest in Special Defense or Defense EVs is because they excel at tanking physical or special attacks. Skarmory needs Special Defense investment to take on Fire Blast Snorlax, Salamence, etc, because physical attackers want a way to take on Skarmory. Thus, in order for Skarmory to check the physical threats it needs to, it may opt to run a more specially defensive spread. Since Forretress is an offensive goldfish and can't do too much other than switch into neutral physical attacks, Forretress users may opt to run more Special Defense EVs so that Forretress can takes Surfs from Milotic and set up Spikes, thus supporting its team. Since Forretress's Defense stat is so high, it can afford to give up some Defense as it still will be able to take on physical attackers and set up Spikes or Rapid Spin. Blissey can afford to invest heavily in Defense because it takes nearly all Special Attacks with ease.

    As you should now see, Skarmory, Forretress, and Blissey can afford to play around with there EV spreads because they excel at what they're doing and when they give up some of there Defense or Special Defense investment, they still check what they need to check efficiently. This is not the case for Claydol. Claydol doesn't have the luxury of having great defensive typing like Forretress or Skarmory and doesn't have the absurd bulk on the physical or special spectrum like Blissey. Splitting the Defense and Special Defense EVs prevents Claydol from doing its job effectively and a mixed defensive spread deserves nothing more than a small AC or an OO mention. `
  19. Triangles

    Triangles

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    OK - what I've decided to do is change the spread to Sir's suggestion, but mention my/g80's previous spread (with the Sp.Atk shifted into Def) in AC of the set. I've also decided to mention that you can increase either Atk or SpAtk evs a bit. In all honesty I like both spreads but I think that Sir's is probably slightly better in the long run, for the reasons he has mentioned. After all Claydol's only real job is to spin, and check the physical powerhouses mentioned by Sir, so as such the EVs should be allocated to Def. This should be ready for GP checks now. :)
  20. Danilo

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    Triangles, in the first paragraph of the AC, emphasize Levitate as another advantage over Swampert and not being 4X weak to Ice Beam as an advantage over Flygon.
    If the reader wants to OHKO bulky DD Mence, the spread is 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpA
    If the reader wants to always 2HKO standard 4 HP Dragon Dance Tyranitar with Earthquake, the spread is 252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 Def.
  21. gene

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    your post reeks of condescension, and most of it isn't even true

    claydol is there on teams that play off resistances, you can switch into shit like gengar/jirachi and force them out. being able to take unstabbed ice punch and hp grass is very useful, so there is a very good reason to use spdef evs.
  22. Danilo

    Danilo
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    I hope i didn't offend you, that was not my intention.

    I don't deny that there's no merit in running Special Defense EVs. But, it's certainly inferior to checking physical attacking behemoths over a long period of time that Claydol is designed to check, or OHKOing Salamence before it has the chance to 2HKO with some residual damage. That's why an AC mention of a more mixed defensive set should be more than enough
  23. Oglemi

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    [Overview]

    <p>Does your team need a spinner who isn't vulnerable to the Spikes it deals with? Does your team need a half-decent check to Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Salamence, and also the likes of Flygon and Jirachi? Does your team need a resistance to the infamous EdgeQuake combination? If the answer to any or all of the above questions was a resounding yes, then Claydol is an ideal fit for these criteria. However, Claydol is not without issues. Firstly, its ability to check threats such as Tyranitar is substantially lowered because it will fall to two Crunches from a Boah or Luretar set, and if one wishes to conserve Claydol for later purposes, it is sometimes necessary to switch in order to scout out a moveset, which could put you on the back foot very early in the game.</p>

    <p>Claydol also sports six weaknesses, including those to the very common attacking types Water and Ice, which doesn't do the ancient doll any favors. Claydol also has paltry offensive stats and a lack of phazing moves, leaving it as complete setup fodder for the likes of CurseLax, Dragon Dance Gyarados, Calm Mind Celebi, and Calm Mind Suicune. Although Claydol is very durable and lasts a long time in most stall-oriented matches—Claydol is much more suited to being featured on (and against) stall teams—one must remember that Claydol cannot cause any real heavy damage to most standard teams if the opponent makes the appropriate switches.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Utility
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Psychic / Toxic / Rest
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The idea behind this set is simple—switch in whenever possible and remove any Spikes from your side of the field by using Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin is listed first on this set as it is the move that differentiates Claydol from other Ground-types in OU, and is an excellent supporting move. In drawn-out games, the deciding factor is often who has control of the hazards on the field, and Rapid Spin allows you to exert control to a certain extent, and also give teams that rely on hazards and switch-forcing strategies trouble. Earthquake is a powerful STAB move that can damage Tyranitar decently and force it out.</p>

    <p>Ice Beam is the third moveslot because with it, (remove comma) Claydol is a good answer to Salamence and Flygon. The choice of move in the fourth slot mainly depends on what spinblocker you wish to cover. Psychic is the primary option in the fourth slot to threaten Gengar and allow Claydol to spin with more ease against it, and act as a check to it to a certain extent. With Toxic, Claydol can wear down non-Rest variants of Dusclops and also fare much better against the Rest using variant with sandstorm and/or Spikes on the opposing side of the field, thus allowing Claydol to spin more freely against teams that run Dusclops. Many of Claydol's main checks and counters also hate being poisoned, such as Gyarados, Milotic, Cloyster, (comma) and Swampert. Rest can also be used in the fourth slot, as it increases Claydol's longevity and removes its vulnerability to status, although Claydol is usually used on stall teams that carry a cleric.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The primary reason to use Claydol over other Ground-types such as Swampert and Flygon is for its access to Rapid Spin. Claydol is also often chosen instead of Swampert for its ability, (comma) Levitate, and over Flygon for its lack of a 4x weakness to Ice. This set aims to make the best use possible of Rapid Spin with a defensively based EV spread that aims to keep Claydol alive and well so that it can remove Spikes multiple times. Maximum EV investment in HP allows for decent all-around tanking. The EVs are focused on Defense so that Claydol can take physical barrages optimally, such as Tyrantiar's Rock Slides. 96 EVs can be shifted into Attack to always 2HKO 4 HP Dragon Dance Tyranitar with Earthquake, or 144 EVs into Special Attack in order to OHKO Dragon Dance Salamence with Ice Beam. An alternative spread of 252 HP / 164 Def / 96 SpD is also a decent option if you want Claydol to take special hits decently, such as the Ice Punches of Gengar, as well as physical hits, and as such function as a mixed wall and also a better counter to the likes of Jirachi.</p>

    <p>Good teammates for Claydol include Electric-types such as Raikou, in order to check the bulky Water-types that Claydol struggles with. Zapdos works especially well as it can also safely cover Dragon Dance Gyarados, as well as Swampert with a specially defensive EV spread and Hidden Power Grass. Claydol helps defend Raikou against the Ground-type attacks that it dislikes, such as Earthquakes coming from Flygon. The ancient doll also defends Zapdos from Rock-type attacks, such as Rock Slides from Tyranitar. Heracross is also a good partner for Claydol, because Heracross covers threats to Claydol, such as CurseLax, Blissey, Swampert, and other bulky Water-types like Milotic to an extent. In return, Claydol stops Heracross being Spikes fodder for Skarmory, and checks Salamence.</p>

    <p>Claydol adores Wish support due to its lack of reliable recovery—prime candidates for this are Vaporeon and Jirachi. The former acts as a back-up check to the likes of Tyranitar and Salamence (especially if Tyranitar is a LureTar which Claydol can't deal with), while the latter has decent type synergy with Claydol. It resists the Grass- and Ice-type moves that Claydol dislikes, while in return, Claydol covers the likes of Tyranitar, which threaten Jirachi. Jirachi is also able to switch in fairly well on bulky Water-types, Shadow Ball Snorlax, Regice, and specially defensive Zapdos. Pursuit users such as Tyranitar and Houndoom are also good partners, because despite increasing the team's overall Water weakness, they cover teams that attempt to spinblock using Ghost-types by removing them for Claydol. Skarmory deserves a mention, as between the two of them, every physical attacking type is resisted—the two physical types that Skarmory is neutral to, Fighting and Rock, are resisted by Claydol. </p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Claydol can make use of either Light Screen or Reflect above one of its moves outside of Rapid Spin and Earthquake, or even both on the same set. However, in stall-based games (probably the games that are most likely to feature Claydol), screens are poorer options as five turns in ADV can often consist of only switches, support moves, and resisted attacks. Also, because there is a definitive answer to almost every sweeper in ADV (aside from fully set up Flail or Reversal users which are rare because of the abundance of Tyranitar), (comma) and because there is no Pokemon that is really overpowered enough to muscle through its usual checks (when they're healthy) behind screens, using Light Screen or Reflect is a comparatively poor option. Explosion is also an option to cause some surprise damage and open an opposing team up to a threatening sweeper, but it is not really suited to Claydol because once it is down, opposing Spikes users are free to set up and force multiple switches. Also, Claydol's Explosion is also very comparatively weak and may not OHKO opponents like a healthy Suicune. Hidden Power Fire is a fairly decent option on Claydol as it deals more damage to Skarmory than anything else Claydol can do, and also destroys Forretress.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Bulky Water-types, such as Milotic, Suicune, and Swampert, (comma) are the bane of Claydol's existence, (remove comma) as they are capable of shrugging off Earthquakes and hitting hard back with powerful super effective Surfs. Suicune in particular is an excellent Claydol counter, being able to set up on it freely with Calm Mind, and not particularly fearing Toxic due to Rest removing status from it. Cloyster also gets a notable mention, because if Cloyster is the source of Spikes for a team, then the Claydol user will have difficulty keeping Spikes off the field. Every time Claydol removes Spikes, Cloyster can switch right back into it and set them up again. However, Cloyster MUST watch out for Toxic. Also, Hidden Power Bug or Toxic Forretress can beat Claydol, and also does not fear Toxic itself, and thus is able to keep its team's Spikes up against Claydol.</p>

    <p>Dusclops is a very good Claydol counter, blocking its attempts to Rapid Spin. It can also easily take any attack that Claydol dishes out and return the blows with Shadow Ball. The bandaged spinblocker also doesn't fear Toxic when carrying Rest. Calm Mind Celebi does not fear anything Claydol has to dish out, and can boost multiple times freely on it. However, it should be emphasized that Leech Seed Celebi is not a Claydol counter as Rapid Spin's gargantuan 64 PP far outlasts Leech Seed's meager 16. Dragon Dance Gyarados is immune to Earthquake, takes little from a fairly weak Ice Beam and, like Celebi, can set up freely. However, it should be noted that Gyarados should Taunt first against Claydol to scout for a potentially harmful Toxic. Regice is a very good answer to Claydol, having good all-around bulk and a powerful Ice Beam.</p>

    <p>Heracross is also a decent answer to Toxic Claydol, resisting Earthquake, taking Ice Beams well with its fairly decent Special Defense stat, getting a Guts boost from Toxic, and hitting back with a vicious STAB super effective Megahorn. However it should be noted that Heracross is unable to switch into Psychic Claydol. Curse Snorlax takes little from uninvested Earthquakes and can set up on Claydol with Curse, potentially readying it for a sweep. Blissey walls Claydol all day, especially Calm Mind variants who can set up freely on it.</p>


    [​IMG]

    GP Approved 1/2
  24. DracoMalfoy

    DracoMalfoy need a little time to wake up wake up
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    411
    I don't agree with the EVs. IMO, it should be 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SDef with Relaxed nature, but I won't get much into it if you don't want to put that in the OP.
    I'd say I'm here to discuss the first set. Should be Earthquake - Psychic - Rapid Spin for sure, then the last move could have the options: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire / Rest, being the last one the 'less important'. To be honest, Toxic isn't as useful as the other moves are. About Ice Beam not being a main move, I think we can all agree Claydol can't really counter Salamence, and if you have rest, you'll be able to stop Flygon with Psychic. One of the main reasons why you use Claydol as Spinner is because it can also kill Gengar, the most common block spinner nowadays. Also, even without SpAtk EV's you're gonna 2HKO Gengar and specially defensive Forretress using Psychic and HP Fire.

    So yeah, these are my two cents. I know I'm late, but if this analysis goes onsite this way it'll have to be updated again...
  25. Triangles

    Triangles

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2011
    Messages:
    373
    Ok - I will make a compromise - I will keep with the current EV spread because it's a very small difference eventually unless your spread has a specific intention, like surviving a certain hit, (also I mentioned a more mixed defensive spread in AC). But I will also slash Hidden Power Fire on there with Ice Beam and demote Toxic to a third slash on the fourth moveslot, shifting Rest up one place. I'll also put in a larger mention of the merits of Resting and the issues with Toxic. Your advice is excellent but unfortunately I feel as if it's a tad late. Sorry - :(

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