1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Clear Sky Discussion Thread - Hello It's Spring

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Ojama, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Ojama

    Ojama May your scattered remains entertain me
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Palace Mavenis the Smogon Tour Season 15 Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,952
    approved by kd24

    Hey guys, I know we have been talking a lot about weathers impact on the metagame these last few months but we clearly missed an important point : weatherless teams. Deoxys-D recently got banned and it was without any doubt the most important member of weatherless teams. "Deo-D Teams", as people named them, didn't really care about the opposite weather. So the question is, are weatherless teams still viable in the current metagame or is it clearly unviable due to the fact that Drought and Drizzle prevent players from using this kind of teams.

    I'm starting this thread now because I have been laddering a lot these last few weeks just to see if I would be able to reach the top ladder with weatherless teams. I did not ladder on PS but on PO, where Tornadus-T and Deoxys-D are still allowed which was even harder for me. I picked #1 with 2 alts and with 2-3 different teams. It was extremely easy with one of them because it was less weak to Tornadus-T. But anyway, we don't care about Tornadus-T since it's banned here, but it's still important to point out that even with one of the strongest rain abusers, I still managed to get first on ladder.

    Teams I used were :

    - Scizor / Latias / Rotom-W / Jirachi / Landorus / Terrakion

    - Breloom / Latias / Keldeo / Jirachi / Landorus / Terrakion

    In each of them, I only have 2 Rain switch-ins, which could have been annoying but to be honest it wasn't that hard to beat rains with these teams. Tornadus-T was the only thing that was really annoying, the rest was quite ok to handle. Actually, Rain Stall Teams are the biggest issues for Weatherless Teams because Tentacruel, Ferrothorn and Jirachi are extremely hard to handle but it's quite manageable. That's why I had to use SubPunch Breloom (so with Toxic Orb + Poison Heal) with a Bulky Spread to be able to switch on Tentacruel and Ferrothorn easily. With the other one I was always leading with Rotom-W so I can burn Ferrothorn very early in the game. People always lead with their Weather Inducer against a Weatherless Team and since Ferrothorn and Tentacruel are almost always in Rain Teams, they lead with Politoed so I have a free Will O Wisp. Basically, Rotom-W was my best answer to Rain Stalls because it resists extremely well, gets a spikes + toxic spikes immunity and has a status move + pain split. I couldn't use Keldeo in the first one because the Team would be too Rain Stalls weak so that's why I'm using Rotom-W.

    What about Jirachi's case? It was the biggest issues for both Teams since it can paralyze everything and flinch me to death. In addition, since Tornadus-T was allowed, everyone was using it which was extremely annoying for me because CMLatias was the mvp of the team. It was quite manageable with the first one because Scizor and Rotom-W are good switch-ins. In the other one, Landorus was my main shot but I can get paralyzed with Body Slam or get destroyed with an unexpected HP Ice. I was also using Modest Landorus that is slower than SubCMJirachi that is used with a Timid Nature so it was quite hard to handle. Breloom can spore it if it doesn't run Psychic/Psyshock but Iron Head can be stupid sometimes. My main idea was to either hit it with Terrakion / Specs Keldeo or to Trick it with my ScarfJirachi but still...

    Rain Offenses and Sand Offenses/Stalls are really not a problem for a good Weatherless Team. I was almost always leading with Terrakion to set up Stealth Rock as quickly as possible which is really important against these Teams especially if they lack of a spinner. Removing the opponent Steel(s) was the most important thing to let Latias sweep the rest. Scizor wasn't hard to deal with thanks to Stealth Rock, ScarfJirachi and Terrakion. If the opponent had a Tyranitar it was a free Spore for Breloom so I actually didn't care weather there was a Tyranitar or not. Against offensive Teams, CBScizor is just amazing, Landorus is the monster we all know and ScarfJirachi is so much usefull. For the other Team, Breloom and Keldeo are probably the MVP whether it's against Stalls or Offenses. But for both Teams, there most important member was Terrakion. While it can be seen only as a Stealth Rocker against Offenses, it is without any doubt the most important member against Stalls. It obviously sets up Stealth Rock but it also can make big holes in the opponent Team with Swords Dance + Focus Sash which makes it really hard to kill for a Stall Team.

    What about Sun Teams? I won't lie, they are extremely hard to beat because of Volcarona and Venusaur. While Kingdra cannot be used in Rain, Venusaur is allowed and is a major threat for Weatherless Teams because it's obviously faster than your whole Team, it has Sleep Powder and Growth + Giga Drain to recover. That's why I was using SubCMLatias to be able to handle it and not automatically lose to it. Keldeo and Rotom-W are also less good against Sun Teams since their Stab is weakened and boosted Fire moves are quite hard to handle. There aren't these problems against Rains because there is no "speed boosted pokemon" (I don't know the english word :s) like Venusaur and except Heatran, I can't see any other Pokemons that are affected by the Water moves weakening. In addition, there are some Weatherless Teams members that get their moves boosted by Drizzle like Keldeo, Rotom-W etc.

    Why am I talking about Weatherless Teams while Rain, Sun and Sand Teams are better? Because in my opinion it's the most fun playstyle of the metagame and I'm trying to explain you that it is 100% possible to beat great weathers teams with a well-built weatherless team. I always found it boring to use Politoed, Ninetales and Tyranitar in offensive teams just to have a weather inducer and so not lose against other weather teams. To me, using Scarf or Specs Politoed is really boring, same with Tyranitar although it's cooler than the frog. When I was building my Teams, I was always frustrated to break a spot only for a stupid weather inducer and that's why I decided to try this playstyle without Deoxys-D that was even more boring than Toed and Tar. I was really surprised of it's efficiency and really enjoyed playing these Teams.

    If you're curious, I'm still neutral about banning Drizzle and Drought although by using weatherless teams I found that they were a bit broken but it's really manageable. I really tried every possible playstyle and to me, Drought is the only broken weather, but that's my opinion. I'd like to know what you guys think about finding ways to mitigate drought and drizzle. I think the discussion about whether weather is broken or not is worth discussing later down the road but it won't get too much value right now, so let's keep it on how we can use our weatherless teams to handle Drizzle and Drought.
  2. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,288
    Lots of great stuff in here and I'd really suggest everyone reading and trying to add to this discussion. I have some stuff I want to bring up but for now, I ask that you try to use real game experience as Ojama did when suggesting how to bridge the gap between Weatherless vs Weather teams.

    This thread will not devolve into an argument about weather just being too strong. That's a discussion we've had and I'm sure will be had again sometime else, but this thread is to grow as players and gain comfort with how to deal with teams. A lot of pokemon is execution of strategy and dealing with the core of weather is something we can learn a lot from in that regard.

    Good job Ojama
  3. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    330
    Can I ask the specifics of your latias Set. I have tried using 252spe 252hp CM/Roost/Sub/Dpulse on offense. I just found it did not hit hard enough for an offense teama and had kinda bad results. However more agressive sets seemed unable to reliably check keldeo. Maybe I was just misplaying.

    One thing I like about weatherless teams is you can get really beautiful type charts. Stuff like double resisting every type (maybe sans ghost or something not important) and having no triple weaks. This sort of thing makes you much less vulnerable to late game scarf. This is very hard to do with weather teams.

    For example the first team in your post does in fact double resist everything while having no triple weaks.
  4. Ojama

    Ojama May your scattered remains entertain me
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Palace Mavenis the Smogon Tour Season 15 Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,952
    It was the same as yours and strangely I find it extremely good in offense. As you said it, LO/Specs versions are good but can't really handle Keldeo which is a problem I think. You really have to use Latias as a late game sweeper which means you only set up with at the end of your game, when you're almost sure you can sweep the rest of the team (which is almost always the case because killing Latias end game is extremely hard thanks to its bulk and its speed. In addition Substitute makes it really hard to kill). During 80% of the game, you only use Latias as your rain check and nothing else. Use recover everytime you get damaged because you need to be full health to handle rain sweepers.
  5. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,358
    I honestly think that you can still succeed in creating a great team without resorting to weather. However, when I build a team, I usually base it around a core that matches up pretty well against weather teams. The core I'd like to talk about here is Celetran.

    Celebi has been rising drastically in usage recently, and for a good reason. Not only is it a solid switch in to common Pokemon found on a rain team, but it also counters top threats such as Breloom, SF Landorus, and Keldeo. Baton Pass Celebi is also one of the few solid counters to the ever common Tyranitar + Keldeo team archive.

    Heatran walls the majority of Sun teams that don't carry specific Pokemon, such as Dugtrio or Terrakion, to take it out. Heatran ironically does pretty amazing against Sand and Rain teams too. The Heatran set I'm talking about in particular is Lava Plume, Toxic, Protect, Roar. Heatran does a great job in luring in bulky waters such as Rotom-W, Jellicent, and Politoed, and Toxic completely cripples these Pokemon. Although not as common, Heatran also does great against Hail teams, although I won't go into detail much, since they are never seen any more (sadly).

    So yes, I think you can be successful without resulting to weather, I just think you need a solid core and a bit of practice. Weather-less imo is perhaps the best play style.
  6. Cygnis

    Cygnis

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    79
    Imo, Xatu is probably the new heart of Hyper-Offense. Gaining momentum, this, that. Strong Heat Wave to remove Forretress or Psychic to remove Tentacruel and both have troubl with Starmie. I have nothing else to say. Xatu is probably new weatherless must.

    However, many have their personal opinions so I find Xatu best. o.O
  7. Frog

    Frog

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    94
    The problem is pretty much all weatherless teams will work better with a Tyranitar or Hippowdon as a wall, even only for blocking rain. The CeleTran core mentioned above works better in sand than weatherless, period. Heatran is neutralized by rain and Celebi by sun. If you want to use weatherless many pokemon are dead weight in certain matches against certain weathers, so the pool of good pokemon is smaller. Weatherless is never going to be the best style,but it will probably never go fully extinct.
  8. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    461
    Facepalm

    Back on topic, I actually have a lot of respect for weatherless teams. In a lot of ways, it's just so much more intelligent a playstyle than weather, since the level of ridiculous power is decreased (i.e. you can't just spam base 180 STAB attacks).

    In my experience, one of the things that has made and will continue to make weather dominating is just that it's so much easier to built a weather-based team. Sure, you've got a teamslot taken up. But having a weather adds a ton of purpose to your team, as well as automatically taking care of a host of other factors immediately--shutting down other weather teams, making sure you'll only really have to be prepared to play in one weather, etc. Not only that, but it totally skews what is viable on the team--if you're using sun, for example, 3/4 of OU is pretty much out of consideration for the team. This makes weather-based teambuilding a lot easier, which is one reason for its popularity.

    On the note of latias, I've always been a bit torn with how to run her effectively. One of my biggest hesitations about it is how pursuit-trappable it is--unlike latios, it has no hope of getting past a ttar switchin. This always makes me hesitant to use it as my main check to anything, such as keldeo (which is often paired with ttar of course). One alternative I've found is using celebi, which has BP to escape from pursuit and does a lot of the same things, but it's not perfect. How do you guys overcome this weakness?
  9. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,288
    I was conflicted on deleting this because it ignores the point of the OP which is to discuss how a team without weather can deal with Drizzle and Drought (and the problem mons with-in). However, you bring up a point (unintentionally or not) that I want to address:

    "If you want to use weatherless many pokemon are dead weight in certain matches against certain weathers, so the pool of good pokemon is smaller"

    I don't agree with this theory at all. It questions the ability of the team builder in that he can't effectively prepare for weather with what he is given. I'll take an example of Celebi vs Sun. This is pretty much as useless as it gets right? Except the Celebi player with a team designed well enough to handle Sun is not at an immediate disadvantage. U-Turn or Baton Pass, using an offensive Stealth Rock set with Hidden Power Fire/Giga Drain(or Leaf Storm), etc are all ways to be able to play around the sun team and make use of a key Pokemon. Celebi is not going to play the same role in every game. With a Celebi, I can lure in their Fire-types and get out to something that puts pressure on them right away, rather than lategame where they have a better chance to passively damage my Pokemon. The offensive set I mentioned earlier handles Forretress/Donphan/Starmie (Spinners you would see on sun teams) and Celebi's presence allows you to play the game at your pace.

    I could create examples of this for every "weatherless Pokemon". The better player can dictate the pace of a match so that even the most useless Pokemon (Celebi vs Sun) is controlling tempo.

    Is sand bad? No, I could definitely make a team with it thrown on, but I'm limiting my team slots to just win the weather war when I can use skill and tempo to do it for me. This is why you should want to become a better player (and a better team-builder). Knowing that you can execute a strategy that sets the pace for you just gives you a sense of "yeah I'm doing this shit right". Weather for the sake of weather doesn't have to be the norm and I think this thread is a step in the right direction towards changing it, and I don't think your post helps at all, especially considering it is flat out wrong in some regards.
  10. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    Great topic ojama, i think you bring up an interesting discussion so i think ill leave some words here.
    Now, the first thing i thought when deo-d got banned was, who can do its job now? Looking at the spikes users, i found out some sets which are pretty much as effective as deo-d - if not even better.
    The first one is Custap skarmory; i got inspired by trickroom and its rtm and i've started using custap skarmory in ou. The set was Whirlwind / Taunt / Spikes / Sr max speed max hp and custap berry. It works very good and to be honest, sometimes its even better then deo-d. For sure its less fast and easily tauntable, but the surprise value of this lead will let you set your shits very easily, also since deo-d got banned people tends to not run taunters anymore in their teams (at least in my experience). Skarmory also have whirlwind which always prevent you to do be setup fodder, which deo-d would have kill to have.
    The other one is Custap forretress. I dont have an exact set, since im experimenting as of now, but Sr/spikes/explosion are almost a must. It probably work less that skamrory, but it can run ts too in case you need it and rapid spin, also explosion will give you some momentum, it will break dragonite multiscale or a sub.
    The reason why im speaking of those pokemon is that in my opinion almost nothing changed with the deo-d ban. If weatherless teams were good with deo-d, there is not reason why they should not be good with skarmory, forretress or others lead.
    In case you wonder, i used a successful team with Custap skarm / Troom jellicent / Scarfmence / Sd scizor / Lum Cm latios / Sd terrakion that peaked 2000 or something on showdown, so yeah weatherless teams are still effective.
    This team worked this way: surprise the opponent with skarmory and setup as much as you can. If your opponent has a spinner, then send out jellicent and start weaking things with a Life orb hydro pump and trick room.
    If it was a rain team, then you have the advantage of jellicent spamming strong hydro pump to everything while walling things as well (the set also has recover) but also latios which can calm mind into those bulky water then start wreaking things with Psyshock / Surf / Dpulse. If the rain team also had ferrothorn, then i have to be careful and switchback to Orb scizor or Terrakion to put pressure on it, but also taunt skarmory pretty much makes it useless. the key here is to break the ferro/jelli or tenta core with scizor (which have sd/bpunch/spower/pursuit) or double boost terrakion.
    Then against sun teams were a little harder because venusaur is a piece of shit, if you let it setup a growht you are in trouble, however its not as terrible as it seems. I send out skarmory against ninetales and i set up sr+spikes thanks to custap. At this point the sun team faces the fact that it cant spin with forre/donphan whatever else because i have jellicent, so its going to take heavy damage every time it switchs in. Jellicent even without hydro pump can still be good to avoid rapid spin, so its not useless. If my opponent had a xatu, then i probably switchback to terrakion against ninetales, and start setup sd/polish to wreak that team. If it also have a dugtrio and i cant do it with terrakion, then i try to calm mind with latios in ninetales face, even if my opponent have a steel pokemon. To be honest, almost any sun team has a number of problem against terrakion / Latios / Salamence / hazard so i cant really say the sun team has the advantage. Scizor could also revenge kill a weakened venusaur if i needed to, so it wasnt useless.
    Against sand teams it really depends on what your opponent has, so ill only speak about those sand offense with ttar/keldeo/loom ect.
    First thing, they rarely use a spinner. Not only that, they actually lack of a way to stop skarmory at all. Remember that jolly skarm outspeeds adamant breloom and can at least tie if loom its jolly as well. So basically i start the game with sr+spikes and 5 vs 6. Now, calm mind latios often is less effective due to the strong tyranitar that can come in and wreak me, even tho im pretty much sure it can 2ko it with sr+spikes and surf. By the way they often use scizor or jirachi on those teams, so latios wont be that usefull. If tyranitar got weakened enough, jellicent can freely come in into keldeo and setup troom, then spam some random damage. Scarf salamence isnt that good due to the prevalence of base 108 scarfers on those team, but with a bit of prediction you can avoid locking yourself into outrage so that you can switch against keldeo or terrakion. my win condition here is probably sd scizor (once keldeo is removed) or even better sd terrakion, even though landorus-t is a piece of shit and its hard to kill, i sometimes weaken it with salamence hydro pump.
    So, in conclusion, weatherless teams are effective. Maybe more difficult to build and to play with, but they have the advantage of not using ninetales or politoed in their teams.
  11. yee

    yee
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,110
    One view that I've held for a while is that Sand doesn't count as weather, and if it does it's less of one than hail. What I mean is that by using Sand you're never trying to abuse it, you're just protecting your weatherless team from things like Tenta and Venu that are quite, well, retarded, without counterweather. I'd like to hear how people feel about this part in particular because Tyranitar and Hippowdon are really almost posterboy weatherless pokemon even if they didn't change the weather, which makes me feel like I'm not really limiting my pokemon slots.

    However, to beat Rain Stall / Sun Offense, which I'm fairly sure we agree is where team matchup is against anything weatherless, there are good things to use and some happen to cover both. Mixed Kyurem-B can bulldoze through Rain Stall while giving Sun a hard time, and Hydreigon can do both but to a lesser extent. Lum Haxorus is also absolutely superb vs both, beating up on slow water mons while refusing to get walled and grabbing easy kills when played right against Sun. Dragons in general are excellent against both, being possibly able to break every member of a stall team / dgaf'ing against Tentacruel and finding chances to blast sun teams. The only thing that bugs me here is that while Sun / Rain Stall may be troubled by these mons on weatherless it is sunk almost surely if you just throw on a Tar / Hippo.

    Hazards paired with anti weather sweepers like old Deo-D teams are still good if you want to beat weather. Good rule here is have a good source of spikes, a ghost, 5 sweepers that do at least 2/3s to Tentacruel / wear it down through scouting moves and at least a couple offensive pokemon that take on sun well. Again as long as Venu won't whore your team and you can break any stall core with Tentacruel you are giving yourself a chance.

    You can also fight fire with fire, meaning fight things yee finds broken with more things yee finds broken. I consider all of Breloom / Keldeo / Landorus toxic to the metagame because they can set up with SD / CM / or U-Turn respectively and just about eat defensive things. Mix these with other questionable things like Kyurem-B and there isn't a lack of power to break Rain Stall if you need to, which is a bit depressing to me. You still need to be very very careful against sun because being slower than Venu can still mean a horrible matchup. With Venu having Grass / Ice / Ground coverage available if it wants it even a bulky Dnite / Shed Shell Tran might not even be enough to hold sun sweepers away. However, with Venu being slower, A Scarf Infernape / Latios is quite funny for the weatherless player when this happens because what they do to sun teams is so awful I can't think of a proper comparison. Part of the reason there is never any Sun Heavy Stall and sometimes quick stall is because there is absolutely no way to deal with all of the sweepers when they have boosted fire moves in any flavor of BW.

    With all of these ideas being offensive however, I have to ask again why Sand changes slower weatherless teams into an abused strategy on the level of Rain and Sun. When you go to balance, I just don't understand why Sand suddenly makes it a different playstyle when you're just using a Tyranitar / Hippowdon to keep things in a check with a secondary bonus of making Tentacruel / Venusaur less unfair. I see Full Stall-Heavy Offense and everything in between as a spectrum with every team falling in there at some point, and label a teams style based on where it lands whether or not there's weather. For everything Balance (in the middle) and below it's ridiculous to me to say Sand is a weather used to be abused. It's a couple of pokemon that play just like weatherless mons while reducing the effects of weather, without necessarily fighting a weather war, not to mention games featuring a weatherless team on the offensive side of balance vs a balanced or slower Sand team have the "weather" featured as almost completely irrelevant in the matchup.
  12. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    ^this
    Unless you are using stoutland with gothitelle to abuse of sand i cant think of any sand sweepers that benefit from it (and terrakion doesnt count).To me its convenient to put an hippodown on your stall team or some ttar in your offensive team to use it as an antiweather/lati@s check/srocker ect because they are good pokemon even outside of their ability. This doesnt necessarily mean that sand makes a weatherless offense better, sometimes they just dont fit the team.
  13. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,740
    I have a different feeling about sand. It IS pretty powerful when you compare it to Hail, where there are only 2 abusers - (shitty) ice body users and hail spammers. That's it. No attack/defence boosts, no speed no immunities, nothing.
    Then you have an inducer like abomasnow with a horrid defensive typing and stat distribution. It is technically outsped and OHKOed by all weather inducers bar hippowdown (tyranitar outspeeds it by one base stat point).. with Fire blast/focus blast/Stone Edge

    First and foremost the SpD boost granted by Sand makes tyranitar a scary wall, and also grants passive resistance which is very abusable by annoymons like ferrothorn. Then you have stuff which is coustomized to wreak havok in sand (Landorus-I). Dancing terrakion also has an easier time setting up. In comparison to rain all weathers manage to look meek, but sand on it's own has some fantastic abusers and could very well sweep teams. Especially the Sand+Latios combination that dominated the suspect ladder. Almost rivals the rain combo of Hurricane+Hydro pump.
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    I am enjoying the discussion taking place here :) Maintain this momentum, brothers!

    yee brings an interesting point about "weatherless sand" teams. Most tournament players use Tyranitar more for its Pursuit-trapping capabilities than for summoning Sand. Keldeo and Landorus-I simply form a superb offensive core with a Pursuit trapper, and Tyranitar does this best. Now that Sand abusers are pretty much limited to Stoutland (and Sandslash?), there are very few specialized sand teams.

    Although if you're using a bulky defensive approach for your weatherless team, Sand may work against you, since it negates Leftovers recovery from Celebi / Zapdos / Rotom-W, etc and racks up further damage on LO Latias, etc. So in a sense, sand does limit your teambuilding options to a degree, and I would advise against slapping Hippo for the sole reason to "counter weather." There are no shortages in beating weather teams, as I will explain below.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The biggest conclusion that we all formulated from the last suspect test was that a weatherless team without Deoxys-D team is NOT crap, as some players have incorrectly claimed in the past to fuel the hatred for weather. Deoxys-D was simply a brainless, uninspired, and exploitable route to build weatherless (or weather teams), but is certainly not the cause of weatherless's success in current metagame.

    The main cause for a successful weatherless teams would have to be access to powerful priorities and Scarfers to check fast weather threats. I personally find Mamoswine + Scarf Landorus core to pretty much check Sun teams with ease. Mamoswine finishes off chloro sweepers, while Landorus says "nice try," to +1 Volcarona / Heatran / Darmanitan. This core also happens to do work in Sand teams as well, since Sand does not appreciate Mamoswine's Ground + Ice offense, nor Scarf Landorus's Ground + Rock offense, which are now augmented by Sand Force. CB Nite singlehandedly is another strong check for Sun threats.

    DrizzleToed can actually backfire on Rain users, since weatherless players can simply pack a Kingdra to dismantle Rain Offense. Specs Gothitelle is a perfect partner for Kingdra, and a major boon to weatherless team in general, eliminating the likes of Ferrothorn and Tentacruel for Kingdra to spam its powerful Dual STAB special offense with abandon. The opponent's Rain essentially facilitates the demise of such teams by the hands of Swift Swimmers - the presence of Kingdra alone has prevented the opponent from summoning Rain xD

    Another factor for the viability of weatherless teams (I mean, weatherless have higher usage than all four weathers combined) is being freed from weather wars and the extra team slot space that can be filled up with a less mediocre Pokemon than say Politoed. We have so many weather-independent power hitters such as Landorus, Terrakion, Mamoswine, Scizor, Breloom, Latios, Conkeldurr, etc to destroy opposing weather teams, while we also have pokemon options that can abuse the opposing weather: RD Kingdra, Rotom-W, or Keldeo in Rain; Heatran, Volcarona, Chandelure, or Victini in Sun (Fire-types are actually quite useful versus Rain for dispatching Ferrothorn and Jirachi, and are accompanied with powerful coverage moves such as HP Grass / Giga Drain / Sunny Beam / Bolt Strike to dish out pain to Water-types); Landorus in Sand; or Kyurem(-B) in Hail. Creativity and flexibility are probably the biggest weapons that allow weatherless to thrive in this relatively weather-centric generation.
  15. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,288
    fwiw, I don't disagree with you yee. Sand is completely different from Drizzle/Drought (hence why this thread should be focused on how to deal with those 2), but I do want to mention my issue in my post isn't about using sand - it's using it for the sake of having it because you feel you can't do anything about weather other than using it. Hippowdon and Tyranitar are great additions to teams but if you're resigning to losing if you don't have them, then that's a problem. Sand does have it's downsides as well (self-infliction of damage) that this thread can be useful for people looking to avoid weather altogether for that reason.

    I think you know that you still need be able to deal with weather outside of Tyranitar/Hippowdon helping to keep things in check so I think you understand what I'm saying here. Your post is pretty much the goal of this thread and I agree that the pressure of Dragon-types can pretty much take down the most efficient weather teams just because they inherently lack outs to them quickly. Thanks for posting about sand though because I had wanted to make a note that using it isn't bad at all, but this thread is about how to deal with weather without resorting to just throwing sand on and hoping it sticks (new guys: it probably won't).
  16. Ojama

    Ojama May your scattered remains entertain me
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Palace Mavenis the Smogon Tour Season 15 Champion

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,952
    I've never considered Sand as a weather and I'm glad people think the same about it. Yee and Pocket brought important points here.

    Exactly, especially the bolded part. One of my first Weatherless Teams was Scizor / Landorus / Keldeo / Latios / Terrakion / Jirachi. It's basically a Standard Sand with Scizor over Tyranitar. Although Tyranitar isn't considered as a Weather Inducer, I was a bit bored of brining it sometimes. Weatherless Teams are clearly the funniest ones to use because of this variability in your choices.

    Since we're talking about Pokemons that can beat Suns and Rain Stalls, I'm going to give you my point of view. I totally agree with Mamoswine, this thing is just a big issue for every rainstall i've been facing. In addition, Mamoswine is extremely useful against Offenses thanks to Ice Shard. It is also a great Lead and is really hard to take down with its Focus Sash. Confirming about Kyurem-B as well. SubKyurem-B or CB or whatever you want is a big threat for almost every Stalls. Sand Stalls are extremely weak to it and so are Rain Stalls. It works very well against Suns thanks to its bulk and its resistances. Dragonite, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Garchomp, Salamence and other Dragons are, as yee said it, extremely good in a Weatherless Team to matchup well against Stalls. Fighting Type Pokemons are also very effective in Weatherless Teams such as Lucario, Conkeldurr, Breloom, Keldeo and Terrakion. Alakazam, Thundurus-T and Gengar are in the same boat, especially Thundurus-T since it can destroy an entire Stall.

    We didn't talk about it yet so I'm gonna do it: an interesting thing in Weatherless Teams is that you can run a "Weather Move" to one of your Pokemons. For example Heatran with Sunny Day to deal with Rains (works well when you killed Politoed), or Tornadus with Rain Dance. It's not even to use this Weather to make your Team better (well yes but you aren't abusing it, it's clearly to break the opposite weather and so make your opponents Team less good (and finally yours better). It will last only 5 turns and will break the opposite weather which is very good. You can even use it a bit, like with Heatran or Tornadus, Rain Stalls will have a hard time handling Heatran in Sun especially with a Status move like Will o Wisp.
  17. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,740
    I can attest to this. But I run weatherless hyper offence as my primary playstyle (without Deo-D, yeah wrap your heads around it)and that also works pretty well. Without having to worry about waging my sun/sand/rain war I can get down to business quickly and can maintain momentum without having to worry about keeping the weather up. Rain Spam though is still pretty annoying. Kinda kills the fun when a Keldeo running Specs hydro pump doesn't have to worry about coverage, usually doing 50%+ to almost the entire metagame under rain.

    The worst part is (especially in the ladder) when people see you're weatherless they just throw their politoed away, which is annoying to deal with because now they have a free sleep + kill fodder which will mindlessly Spam specs moves till you deal with it. and a pure bulky water type is pretty hard to OHKO without any bander or a STAB grass/electric move.

    EDIT:
    Well I used to pack hail on my Starmie during the Tornadus-T era. Sounds fantastic on paper, works p great too. Want to switch in to spam hurricane? too bad. But here's the thing. You can only reasonably do this once in the entire game, not to mention your weather opponent has to lower cost of opportunity with his insta weather summoner. He doesn't have to waste a turn doing it. YOU have to.
  18. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    About this, i used with success a sunny day heatran in a dracospam team (4 dragons 2 steels) in order to weaken even more the effect of rainstall against me. It was also good because dragonite can do even more damage to skarm/rachi so that they cant beat it. An another thing i tried is rain dance water gem keldeo to basically get a ko against sun teams every time you use rain dance (you lead against ninetales with keldeo, you do rain dance and then you ko something with hydro pump). In more defensive teams i used hail gastrodon, a great pokemon with a lot of chance to setup the hail in order to cancel the effect of the weather.
  19. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,514
    First, I want to stress the point made about Sand/Weatherless. SOME Sand teams have a similar archetype when you compare them to weatherless teams. Myself, I use the same cores in my teams and sometimes, I swap Tyranitar for something else. When will I do that ? Well I feel like I can withstand the classic weather teams.

    Which leads me to another point. I believe that Weatherless teams are funnier, more interesting, because they let you create a team freely. My point being, the weather teams, must abuse their weather. They are usually built around that, and they should be built around that in my opinion.
    On the other hand, the weatherless teams are built around beating the weather teams and standing the common threats. And when I'm playing weatherless teams, I'm more worried about facing off-the-meta teams that do not follow the classic pattern.

    I think that in our metagame, weatherless teams can shine. There are beasts like Keldeo, Terrakion, Breloom, the Dragons, etc.. To pressure the weather teams and more, sometimes, use their own weather against them. This was why Scarf Keldeo has been so strong. Who cares about your Rain offense, in the end, Keldeo will end up being able to OHKO literally everything in your team. Anybody body can play the pony's speed tie, no need to have Specs Toed, Thundurus etc behind. And the pony will give a headache to any Sand offense player.
    Landorus is also, one hell of a monster, that any team could possess.

    It's really possible to build an almost perfect offensive core, regardless of the weather. One thing that remains tricky, is the speed. Sun teams, with their Chlorophyl sweepers, and Stoutland (it's usually Adamant, meaning that Scarf Keldeo etc can outspeed it.. but well, I could see the dog being a huge issue for many of my weatherless teams -even if it's Jolly-) get the upper hand in terms of Speed, and it's really hard to contest it for weatherless teams. Having a bulletproof answer is mandatory and it's, to be honest, something that I don't like at all.

    All that to say, on the offensive side, I think weatherless are fine, definitely fine. Obviously, pokemons as strong (read annoying) as Jirachi on the defensive side will remain an eternal pain for the weatherless teams, since we were talking about weatherless offenses.

    But, I'm more worried about the other side. I'm wondering if weatherless stalls are totally out of the question, or if they can be successful in this metagame. While I don't doubt that it's possible to match weather teams in terms of raw power, is it possible to take the assaults from the different abusers of each weather team ?
  20. Alexander.

    Alexander. Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,836
    Cool thread Ojama, Weatherless teams can definitely work fine on the current BW OU metagame even if Deoxys-D is now banned from the OU tier. One of the best Pokemon which be used instead of Deoxys-D is Aerodactyl in my opinion, it hasn't the Spikes in its moveset but it has a very very good statistic of speed, a good coverage (Rock + Ground isn't not a bad coverage imo, it hits a lots of things), Taunt to prevent some annoying setup, Fire Blast (it's a really good choice on Aerodactyl since it destroy Forretress which can spin the Stealth Rock and since it hits Skarmory and Ferrothorn as well, annoying Pokemon which can setup their entry hazards and which wall Aerodactyl without any problem if it hasn't Fire Blast) and it has obviously the important Stealth Rock which it can setup quite easily with its statistic of speed. Another Pokemon which can be used effectively instead of Deoxys-D are Azelf, Mew and as Neliel already said Custap Berry Skarmory and Custap Berry Forretress (it has also Rapid Spin to spin away opponent's entry hazards, which isn't bad of course)which can surprise many people too since it hasn't really common right now. Another very good Pokemon to use instead of Deoxys-D, is Terrakion obviously which can Taunt and Stealth Rock as well and which can put pressure on the opponent's Pokemon with its STABs moves, it hasn't Spikes like Aerodactyl and it isn't so fast as it but they is probably the best choice (and the most common) nowadays because everyone fears its powerful STABs moves (it isn't slow anyway, it's one of the fastest threats of the game).

    I also agree with Ojama on the topic of the "Weather move" such as Rain Dance, Sunny Day and Sandstorm on Weatherless teams, they have generally some problem to Weather teams (mainly against Sun teams of course, since Venusaur and the other Chlorophyll sweepers like Victreebel are really a pain for Weatherless teams since they can hit your whole team with their incredible speed and their coverage moves -Poison + Fire + Grass is a very good coverage...- and since if Venusaur uses Growth for example -it can do it against Rotom-W and Keldeo which are quite common on any Weatherless team to fight Rain teams easier-, it can smash the whole Weatherless teams, and you can revenge-kill it with Scizor's Bullet Punch and Mamoswine's Ice Shard -they're both interesting choices for a Weatherless team) only if Venusaur is already weakened, so you can't always revenge-kill it-, and you can solve it using a "Weather Move" on a Pokemon of yours, for example you can use Rain Dance Keldeo, as already Neliel said, to beat more easily Sun teams or you can use (another example) Sandstorm Terrakion if you have some problem against both Rain and Sun teams. Use "Weather move" is a very nice strategy to beat more easily Weather teams since they usually sacrificate their weather summoner because they think that it isn't useful against a Weatherless team (if they think it's useful -Tyranitar is useful against Lati Twins, for example-, they obviously think that it's less useful than the other team members versus a Weatherless teams...) and when they sacrificate it/them (there are Sand teams with both Hippowdon and Tyranitar and against them is more difficult use effectively the "Weather move", but it isn't anyway impossible of course, it can be used without any problem in the late game I think), you can use the Weather move and then the game becomes much easier to win since Weather teams can't use its sweeper such as Venusaur, Stoutland, Tornadus and so on effectively if their own weather isn't up. In short, weatherless teams are still usable even if Deoxys-D is now banned from the OU tier and they can also funner to play than a Weather teams in my humble opinion and they can also lack Politoed and Ninetales which are without any doubt bad Pokemon.
  21. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,740
    It's not 'impossible' to do that, but if you're not doing it without weather it's more of, 'I won't run weather because it's lame and overused'... instead of say, 'I won't run weather because it's more practical that way'.

    I have always seen stall team take a refuge behind weather because the advantages are too good to pass up. Without that sand chipping away your opponents health or that rain dish recovery aiding your annoying tentacruel or that valuable rain nerfing the fire type weakness for your defensive parafusion jirachi or that leech seed protect ferrothorn, it's much more harder to keep up with the ridiculous power creep this generation has brought.
  22. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    1,433
    Awesome topic Ojama!

    Best part of the op:
    I feel the same way, thats why I've been playing weatherless a lot recently. My fascination with weatherless really started with when Genesect came out. I made this hyper offensive team and it was my most successful team ever, even taking me to my first full tournament win. After that I was hooked on weatherless for a long time.

    Azelf / Sub Salac Terrakion / SD Breloom / DD Salamence / SD Scizor / DD+RD Kingdra

    Made this team right before Genesect got banned and it was my go to team until Deo-D was banned. I felt so comfortable playing the team due to the synergy between the 'mons. I went full physical offense because of how specially offensive the metagame has been, so I thought people would be preparing for special threats more than physical. I had two priorities and all the 'mons either boosted speed along with power or simply power plus priority. I also used an unconventional DD+RD Kingdra so I could change weather on Sun/Sand teams but still set up on Rain teams. I think the main draw with this team is that pretty much everyone is running a scarfer right now and locking themselves into moves that allow me to set up another super dangerous threat.

    Sun is definitely, in my experience at least(for the above team really), the most threatening playstyle. I always had to conserve Kingdra to try and get a mid/late game Rain Dance up. As you said Sun is so hard due to the boosted cloro sweepers. On the same note, Dog Sand can be really annoying if you let it get out of hand at all.

    I never really had too many problems with Rain Stall(first off I feel like its so rare now lol) and that my match-up against it really just had me eliminating those one, maybe two, key threats: ie. Remove Ferro with Terrak and Loom to sweep with Kingdra.

    I think my team was successful because it included all the things that are being brought up in this thread. It had two dragon-types, both of whom do work against teams like Sun and Rain. Two fighting-types who crush steels(and everything else). Two priority users, to keep fast offensive 'mons in check. Plus their set up moves helped them beat both Offensive and Defensive teams. Terrakion can set up a Swords Dance to smash stall teams, but also activate Salac Berry to sweep offensive teams. These same characteristics are seen in each sweeper, except instead of speed Scizor and Breloom rely on boosting their enormous attack stats to break defensive teams with priority abuse for offensive teams.
  23. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ♪~ forced amnesia, an epiphany won’t see ya ~♪
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,175
    Okay. Here's my 2¢ on the topic of weatherless teams. First off, they're incredibly potent since they don't have to run Pokemon as crappy as Politoed or Ninetales (let's face it, no good competitive battler would run Politoed or Ninetales if it weren't for their abilities) and extremely niche Pokemon like Dugtrio or Donphan. Now, I think Ojama brought this up at least once before, but Fighting-types are extremely effective in weatherless teams, only being rivaled by dragons in terms of power and efficiency. Fighting-types can make sun and rain whimper simply due to the power vested in their attacks. Below are some sets I've had success running, organized by Pokemon. Commentary included!

    Breloom (open)
    [​IMG]
    Breloom @ Fighting Gem / Life Orb / Fist Plate | Technician
    Adamant | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Spore | Bullet Seed | Mach Punch | Focus Punch


    Oh, this is a fun set. Focus Punch is Breloom's most powerful Fighting-type attack, but it's nearly impossible to throw out due to its negative priority and the forced flinch that occurs if it gets hit. However, thanks to Spore, Breloom can throw at least one Focus Punch without fear. A Focus Punch followed by a Mach Punch can make short work of several of Breloom's checks, including Latios, Latias, Venusaur, and Landorus (all 2HKOed by a combination of Focus Punch and Mach Punch after SR damage). Fighting Gem gets the first slash since it gives Breloom an inhuman amount of power behind its Fighting-type moves once, despite its difficulty to use, and Life Orb gives all of Breloom's damaging moves quite the damage boost, though not to the extent Fighting Gem gives Focus Punch and Mach Punch. Fist Plate is a compromise between having a damage boost and avoiding the recoil brought on by Life Orb.

    As for alternative moves, you could always run Swords Dance over Focus Punch and turn this Breloom into a deathly sweeper rather than an insane wallbreaker. Stone Edge can also be run if attempting to destroy Dragonite and Volcarona on the switch is more appealing to you (even though that's what teammates are for).

    [​IMG]
    Breloom @ Focus Sash | Technician
    Adamant / Jolly | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Spore | Swords Dance | Bullet Seed | Mach Punch


    This Breloom is particularly nasty against rain stall, since it's faster than pretty much every key member of the aforementioned team archetype. Due to that speed, Breloom can threaten a Spore against at least one key member, freeing a set-up opportunity for itself, which it can use to decimate the opponent's team even further. Dragonite, which would normally be seen as a fully capable stop to Breloom, has to run a Lum Berry to even have a shot at beating out this set. Of course, they can opt to run some speed on certain Pokemon but this forces them to compromise their bulk, leaving them vulnerable to Breloom's teammates. Against offensive weather-based teams, Breloom still shines, thanks to its power and access to potent priority. Jolly and Adamant are slashed since Jolly causes Breloom to lose out on some power, while Adamant causes it to lose out on speed. With Sash Terrakion at its side, one can play mind games with the opponent using Team Preview, forcing the opponent to guess which one will be the actual lead, punishing them if they guess wrong.


    Terrakion (open)
    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Salac Berry / Rock Gem | Justified
    Jolly | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Substitute | Swords Dance | Close Combat | Stone Edge


    Say hello to what is possibly the best set-up sweeper in the entire game, rivaled only by Dragon Dance Dragonite, Swords Dance Garchomp, Double Dance Thundurus-T, and Rock Polish Sheer Force Landorus. The premise behind this set is simple: bash your opponent with high-powered STAB-boosted moves early on in the game, and secure a sweeping opportunity later on by using Substitute to give Terrakion a shield against status and revenge killers. Once that's done, get a Swords Dance under Terrakion's belt and start running. Salac Berry gets the nod over Rock Gem since it gives Terrakion the boost it needs to sweep with ease, with Rock Gem getting the secondary slash since it gives Terrakion the power needed to barrel through stall teams. Note that you should move the 4 HP EVs to Special Defense if you opt to run Rock Gem over Salac Berry, as this lets Terrakion make 4 subs instead of 3. If you do decide to run Salac Berry, you really should use 4 HP EVs, as this activates the Salac after 3 subs, giving Terrakion that speed boost sooner, rather than later.

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Choice Band | Justified
    Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Close Combat | Stone Edge | X-Scissor | Sacred Sword


    I think you all know this set, so I'm not explaining it. If you really need an explanation for this set, consult Terrakion's OU analysis, and if that doesn't give a satisfactory explanation, then I'd recommend heading on over to Battling 101.

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Focus Sash | Justified
    Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Stealth Rock | Taunt / Swords Dance | Close Combat | Stone Edge


    Sash Terrakion, on the other hand, is worth explaining. Okay, I think we all know that Terrakion has a penchant for causing switches all the time. We also know that Terrakion is über strongth, right? Thanks to that strength and a handy BW2 tutor, we can exploit all that and use it as an effective SR setter. Even the bulkiest of Espeon are 2HKOed by this Terrakion's Stone Edge, making it a reliable SR setter for even the heaviest offensive teams. The choice of Taunt or Swords Dance in the second slot is just a choice between these two questions: "Do I want to stop my opponent from laying SR or statusing me?" or "Do I want to turn the pressure in the field up to eleven?" Overall, powerful set.


    Now, keep in mind that those are just 2 mons I've found success with in OU. A team style that sun teams typically struggle against (what? sun teams have issues?) is DragMag offense. Aside from sun stall teams and the stupidly bulky Cresselia and Heatran that come with them, sun teams tend to lack bulk in critical areas, forcing them to use their incredible offense to secure momentum against their opponents (see: Simulation of a Drought, French Orgy with Belzebuth), which in turn allows the dragons to secure a KO on the average each time they switch in. Now, combine that with Fighting-types, who can quickly get rid of any steels the opponent may have, and DragMag offense becomes a powerful offensive team style that even sun and rain teams (both offensive and stall-based) will have problems handling.

    Priority abuse also tends to rustle the jimmies of rain and sun offense teams, since they like their fast, somewhat frail attackers. Mamoswine works well against the both of them since its Ice Shard hits every Chlorophyll sweeper for super-effective damage; Mamoswine's Earthquake is also heavy-duty STAB that is incredibly difficult to switch into if the aforementioned rain / sun team lacks a resistance or immunity to it. Dragonite, despite not packing STAB behind its ExtremeSpeed, is another priority abuser rain and sun teams have trouble with, thanks to its holy trifecta of advantages: powerful STAB in the form of Outrage, the buff to +2 on the priority scale for ExtremeSpeed, and Multiscale, quite possibly the most important advantage of them all, since it halves all damage done to it at full health, not to mention its extensive movepool and resistances to the most common attacks carried on rain and sun teams. Scizor and Breloom, despite not doing as well against sun as they do rain, still deserve a mention simply because of their overall offensive prowess.

    I'll add more soon.
  24. UncleDrew

    UncleDrew

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    I agree with much of what Trinitrotoluene has said. I have found weatherless teams to be very potently strong and being able to use 6 whole Pokemon that are good and that work well together, as opposed to Rain or Sun teams in which Politoed and Ninetales take up space in which, really, something else could be more useful. Many powerful threats exist that are capable of functioning very well not only outside of weather, but within and against weather that your opponent brings in with their team. I had decided to try a weatherless team a while ago based around VoltTurn as to keep constant pressure on the opposing teams threats and wear them down. Sand Force Landorus-I was utilized to abuse any potential Sandstorm teams, while also being able to threaten a variety of threats on Sun teams. He was then paired with a specially defensive Rotom-W, who is able to take many hits and provide support for the rest of the team while being able to threaten rain teams. Another excellent Pokemon who can function both in and out of weather is Breloom. He is immensely powerful and can threaten a variety of threats in all weather conditions.
  25. Bad Ass

    Bad Ass Everyone is here, but you're nowhere near
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a GS2 Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,351
    the main problem with weatherless is, obviously, missing out on the massive advantage that weathered teams get. rain gets hyperpowered water moves, sun gets ridiculous venusaur and cresselia, and sand makes it very hard for the aforementioned two to beat you as well as niche stuff like sandslash and stoutland. the best way to play with a weatherless team is really take advantage of the fact that you are using 6 pokemon, as opposed to teams being limited by a weather starter.

    also easy to do is abuse common weather teams. you pretty much can't stop rain dance kingdra if you're using rain yourself, since it automatically gets 2x speed and crazy power hydro pumps. kingdra also really puts the pressure on sand, and is one of my favorites to use on weatherless since its so good vs every team archetype. jellicent is also great vs rain especially, but can help out vs sun stall teams and does a number to standard sand. the key is working in pokemon that are synergistic with your team's goal while still being able to check the weather. weather is just like a pokemon in teambuilding. in the same way you wouldn't let latios run right through you, you need to have a plan to deal with each type of weather. if you build a team weak to water-type spam, don't expect to win when facing water-type spam. if you do that and take into account that a lot of weatherless mons can straight up crunch various weathers, the task becomes a lot easier to swallow

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)