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Cloyster (Gen 4, adding Anti-Lead)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Heysup, May 8, 2009.

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  1. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/cloyster
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    I tested this set extensively, and it certainly deserves an analysis. It is Exclamation Point's set idea that he sent to me, and asked me to test / write up if I thought it was good. And hell, its awesome. I realize now that I should probably have just written the whole "Cloyster UU Revamp", but it will just have to be done later for NU anyway (if it still stays in NU). It is featured in my latest RMT as well.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    [SET]
    name: Mixed Attacker / Anti-Lead
    move 1: Ice Shard
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Spikes / Rapid Spin
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Shell Armor
    nature: Brave
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>With Crobat and Roserade being common leads in the UU metagame, this mixed set makes a very good counter, as well as a mixed wall breaker. Ice Shard takes care of Roserade and Crobat easily, while Surf takes care of the bulky leads designed to deal with Crobat, such as Steelix and Regirock. Spikes is a great option on any Cloyster set, because Cloyster can easily deal with Crobat, one of the most common Taunt users that would otherwise stop you from setting up. If Crobat decides to stay in and Taunt Cloyster, it will simply be hit by Ice Shard the next turn before it uses U-turn, making Crobat unable to switch back in easily. After Cloyster has done all it can, it has an amazingly powerful Explosion, which even takes a chunk out of bulky Pokemon like Registeel.</p>

    <p>Rapid Spin can be used over Spikes, to make beating greedy Focus Sash Roserade without allowing it to set up (Toxic) Spikes a much easier task. Roserade will likely use (Toxic) Spikes, expecting Cloyster to switch, however Cloyster can just use Rapid Spin to break Roserade's Focus Sash and spin away the Spikes, and simply KO Roserade the next turn with Ice Shard. Though, some Roserade may attack out in fear of Ice Shard, so basically it comes down to who predicts correctly. However, Spikes is usually a better option, as other Pokemon can use Rapid Spin more safely, and Pokemon to set up Spikes are hard to come by. Toxic Spikes can even be used over Spikes if your team would benefit more from the poison, however with Roserade and Drapion running around so often, Toxic Spikes are easily absorbed.</p>

    <p>Cloyster has a lot of trouble against Moltres leads, because of Cloyster's weaker Special Defense stat. Milotic, Azumarill, and Slowking provide nice switch-ins to the Fire-types such as Moltres who force Cloyster out, especially Slowking who can also take Fighting-type attacks as well. Hitmontop works amazingly well with Cloyster, resisting the Rock-type attacks aimed at it, while also being able to Rapid Spin Stealth Rock off of the field, allowing Cloyster more switch-in opportunities. Roserade, Charizard, Moltres, and the like all make great partners as they can switch into the Grass-type attacks aimed at Cloyster.</p>

    <p>A Life Orb, or "SubPetaya" variant of Yanmega greatly appreciates the Spikes support, because it grants Yanmega a ton of KOs that it otherwise could not accomplish. A Whirlwind variant of Crobat can also be used effectively with Cloyster, taking Fighting and Grass-type attacks aimed at Cloyster, while spreading residual damage. Yanmega and Crobat will also benefit from Rapid Spin support from Cloyster, as they both have a weakness to Stealth Rock. Pokemon such as Swellow will appreciate the fact that Cloyster can easily eliminate walls such as Regirock and Steelix, granting Swellow a higher chance to sweep.</p>
  2. Colloquy

    Colloquy

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    nc = no comma
    underlined = noun form
    italics = I didn't understand this, or it isn't needed.

    The second italics is where I didn't get something; why are you saying Milotic and Azumarill resist Cloyster's weaknesses? They both share weaknesses to Electric and from the common Grass-type move aimed at Cloyser. The only thing they resist is Fire**, so you should probably put that.

    twashedit: since when have Milotic and Azumarill resisted Rock?
    colloedit: mistakes happen to everyone twashley
  3. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Thanks a ton Addie, as always its appreciated.

    I guess how the Azumaril/milotic thing is unclear. I meant it to be connected to the first sentance, because these Pokemon have nice resistances against the Fire-types (such as Moltres) who can force Cloyster out. And Yes, its the fire resistance, not Rock resistance....water doesnt resist rock....lol.
  4. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Does no one have any questions, concerns, or even opinions on the set?

    If this is good as it is, then I guess it's done.
  5. Cshadow

    Cshadow

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    How does this set deal with a Roserade lead that uses Grass Knot as opposed to setting up on the first turn?

    Even though the calculator I'm using may be 1 or 2 percent off, it still shows it as a KO;
    Max SpAtk/Speed Timid Roserade vs Min SpDef/Max Hp Brave Cloyster (100 Base Power): 594 - 702 (183.33% - 216.67%)

    It's a guaranteed KO
  6. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    With leads is mainly about prediction. Generally (though with this lead being moderately popular now, not as much), you can expect Roserade to use Spikes / Toxic Spikes against a Pokemon that it guarantees a OHKO against (that calc is wrong, btw, but Energy Ball still OHKOes). However the most common moveset for Cloyster includes Spikes over Rapid Spin, which has no buisness staying in on Roserade anyway.

    Once Roserade switches in one time with Spikes or SR, Ice Shard takes care of it.
  7. Olie

    Olie

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    Just an idea, but maybe it'd be a good idea to slash lum berry alongside life orb. Roserade do tend to carry sleep powder.

    | Roserade | Move | Sleep Powder | 46.1 |

    Do you even need life orb for the 2HKO with Ice Shard?

    also
    you may want to make that OHKO, just to be more precise.
  8. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    It's pretty risky staying in on Roserade considering it can straight up KO. I suppose this may lead the opponent to think you would obviously switch and you get a free layer of Spikes or just Ice Shard Roserade. I think more justification is needed for Lum Berry to be given a slash knowing that Cloyster shouldn't be staying in first turn (you are pretty bold if you are taking a huge risk like staying in first turn without really knowning your opponents style of play - and even then).
  9. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    The reason to stay in on Roserade is to make sure that it doesn't get spikes up. If you use Rapid Spin when it spikes, and Ice Shard the next turn (LO is needed iirc), you beat it. However, with Spikes Cloyster is almost always better off switching, because it cant stop Roserade from setting up spikes so it really isn't worth staying in. You should be carrying something like hitmontop if you use Spikes on Cloyster, so going to a Pokemon like Registeel to set up SR while the opponent sets up spikes, then going to Hitmontop after is the best course of action imo.

    Thats why I can't see Lum Berry being a "good" option, why would Roserade sleep Cloyster, when it a) will be able to set up Tspikes with a free turn, or b) OHKO Cloyster and not waste Sleep Clause on it.

    If anything deserves a slash, its Focus Sash, but I'm not sure still.

    Using prediction to beat Roserade is good enough for me, otherwise Cloyster is trying to do too much (Beating Crobat, and anti-Crobat leads is a good enough reason to use Cloyster).
  10. Aiklap

    Aiklap

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    Cloyster isn't doing much in terms of Roserade;
    If Roserade uses sleep power, it will get a free turn.
    If it attacks, Cloyster dies.
    If it uses spikes/toxic spikes, you still won't OHKO, (they switch) and if cloyster doesn't have rapid spin, their lead has done it's job. And will live to come back in again.
    If cloyster switches, it hasn't forfilled the "anti lead" role.

    Since as Roserade isn't really trumped by this set, it seemes rather pointless to give it an item for a pokemon it will be switching out of.

    Edit: this was before HeysUp response, and i am thinking that rapid spin is definatly superior (on the lead especially)
  11. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    For pure lead-wise purposes, Rapid Spin is probably better. However, the set is called Mixed Attacker / Anti-lead. The Life Orb is all-purpose, same with Spikes. The only thing Cloyster really loses too is Roserade because of it, and even that comes down to mindgames.
  12. Cshadow

    Cshadow

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    The Paragraph still makes Cloyster out to be able to KO Roserade, as if it is not a problem, which it is. I think you should mention something about him being able to 2HKO Roserade, but mention that the safer choice would be to switch out.

    You also lose your spikes lead (if you run spikes), if Roserade happens to attack, which isn't really all that good.

    EDIT: Actually Focus sash sounds like a good idea, you can Rapid spin the Spikes set up, breaking its focus sash, but will Ice Shard KO it after that?
  13. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    No it doesnt always, which is why I like Life Orb as the only option still. I could try to reword that paragraph though, to emhpasize that Cloyster can only beat greedy Roserade.
  14. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I re-worded it to say "only KOes Greedy Roserade who set up Spikes".

    Does anyone have anything else to add?
  15. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I was wondering where this went...I think it's done >.>
  16. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    need to remove crobat from this, you could maybe just add steelix lead or something to emphasise(spelling???) that it is still useful on other other leads (or probably just keep it limited to roserade which is still pretty nice).
  17. umbarsc

    umbarsc

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    I've been using this recently (with Expert Belt), and it's great. However, Dugtrio and Donphan should definitely be mentioned here because Cloyster sets up Spikes against them and scares them away with Ice Shard and Surf. Also, point out how it does more than 50% to Specs Yanmega with Ice Shard, and how it can bait and blow up on Milotic.
  18. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Wondering if I should update this now, or wait until Froslass is deemed BL or UU, because if I update it, Froslass will be all over the set description.
  19. iliketurkeybacon

    iliketurkeybacon

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    Rock Blast is useful on more things than Froslass, although it's the main target of course. I find it more useful with a Focus Sash, as Life Orb hinders its ability to take physical hits, while a powerful STAB, or pretty much any super effective special hit will ohko Cloyster. With Rock Blast and Focus Sash, you can survive Froslass's Thunderbolt (fairly common now, as Taunt is more or less assumed, leading slower foes to attack) and a Hidden Power or Fire move from Moltres, and ohko both. Baton Pass teams often start with a Bug or Flying lead (Lopunny is the only common exception), which Rock Blast can deal major damage to. Drifblim is at worst 2hkoed by Rock Blast with around 200 Attack EVs, and it's also useful against Butterfree leads (sounds really gimmicky, but I've seen at least three in the last two days). Scyther is a popular lead to pass Agility or Swords Dance without having to switch into Stealth Rock, and you can take it out in one attack, through the inevitable Substitute, as long as Rock Blast's accuracy doesn't let you down. Rock Blast has even saved me from random SubPunchers and a Bellyzard with a Substitute up. If Cloyster stays alive long enough for them to be revealed, Rock Blast is a godsend against SubSeeding Jumpluff and SubRoost Articuno or Moltres.

    That was a wall of text just on one move. There are a ton of variations of Cloyster that are reasonable. Ice Shard is a very useful move, but with the tier changes since the OP was last updated, it is less necessary. Altaria is uncommon and hit slightly harder by Rock Blast, and Roserade won't be a lead in UU anytime soon. Due to its departure, Toxic Spikes are slightly more viable on Cloyster, although UU still has more than enough Poison types that may be waiting to soak them up. Surf is helpful against Donphan and Steelix, but you outspeed both and can spam Spikes against Steelix, who only lays down Stealth Rock and will cause very little harm to Cloyster if it stays in or doesn't Roar, and you can Explode on Donphan for a ton of damage, also preventing him from spinning your hazards away.

    I have used Cloyster as my lead most of the time since the UU rankings were reset, and it has helped me stay on the leaderboard since then. I tweaked it many times, and it started as something similar to the Life Orb set, but now is tailored to my team's needs.

    Moves:
    Rock Blast
    Explosion
    Spikes
    Toxic Spikes

    Ability:
    Skill Link

    EVs:
    208 HP/204 Attack/98 Speed
    Impish Nature

    Focus Sash, the Speed EVs, and Toxic Spikes work extremely well together. First, Cloyster has a base 70 speed stat. While not considered fast, Cloyster easily outspeeds Donphan, who otherwise wouldn't be threatened by an all-physical set, and its Explosion cripples the recovery-lacking elephant, while also preventing Rapid Spin from hitting, which means that Cloyster's Spikes can't be spun away as long as it explodes first. I expanded this strategy to even faster spinners. 98 Speed EVs give Cloyster a stat of 200, easily outpacing almost all Hitmontop, and 8 points higher than 0 EV Blastoise, two common spinners that might think they can outspeed Cloyster and remove the hazards. I can't count the times that I set up on another lead that tried to set up on me, then Exploded on their spinner. Most teams only have one Pokemon with Rapid Spin, so I'm fine with letting each of us get hazards up, then often taking out their spinner, while I can punish switches and get mine in later. Also, against opposing Cloyster leads, being faster is a huge advantage, since even if the opponent's has Rapid Spin, if they don't spin on the turn that you get Spikes up, you can Explode to ensure that they aren't spun away.

    Focus Sash is also useful in a situation where an opponent you'd normally put Spikes up on, like Uxie for me, has an unexpected Choice Specs, or super effective move that would normally ohko. You get one layer of Spikes up, and with the Speed EVs, if you can keep your opponent's hazards off the field, you can sometimes Explode on an annoying Blissey or anything slower than you that lacks priority in a pinch. Sometimes, I lay down Toxic Spikes the first turn and I'm promptly greeted by a Venusaur or Nidoking to absorb them. My team doesn't do well against Poison-type Pokemon, so I take this opportunity to Explode if Cloyster's sash isn't broken, which actually happens a lot. To me, this Cloyster becomes a very versatile lead, which I often try to get a few layers of Spikes with and promptly blow up, but is fast enough and has sufficient Defense to be useful later in the game if you keep it away from Special attacks.

    Skill Link is necessary with Rock Blast so that it hits 5 times, but Shell Armor is the better choice without a multi-hit move. The attack EVs are there to guarantee a kill on 4 HP Froslass with Rock Blast, and 98 Speed EVs let Cloyster outpace base 80s that use 12 or less Speed EVs, and all of the popular UU spinners- Claydol, Blastoise, and Hitmontop. This is rather arbitrary, but I EVed Cloyster to just outspeed the common 4 EV Milotic. Obviously, if this set becomes standard, that won't be the case anymore, but I've been surprising people for weeks by Exploding before the Rapid Spin. The rest were put in HP to not waste Cloyster's great Defense stat, and to allow it to take some Ice Beams if it has to. The odd HP stat allows it to switch into Stealth Rock 4 times, but since it's a lead, and still not a fast Pokemon, that usually won't matter. You could go with more Special Defense, which I've tried, but most things which don't invest in Special Attack are slower than you with the added Speed (like most Milotic, Altaria, and Blastoise), and even if you were to max Special Defense, STAB Thunderbolts and the like would still ohko our bivalve buddy.

    Focus Sash lets you get off at least one move, as mentioned before. Lum Berry could work since Venusaur likes switching in on this guy, but Cloyster can't do much but explode, and Paralysis and Poison aren't terrible, since those turns mean one more layer of Spikes, and most of the time this Cloyster doesn't stick around very long, so I just explode on almost anything once statused to get a Pokemon in that won't allow a spinner to do its job. Burn isn't nice, but Spiritomb otherwise just allows the Spikes to pile up, and dislikes switching in on Toxic Spikes. My team is definitely not a stall team, but since I have no Ghosts, it's very focused on putting up hazards quickly and not letting them get removed, which Cloyster does a great job at. Leftovers could work, but Cloyster can only sponge Physical hits, and probably not strong Fighting or Rock-type ones either, so I wouldn't highly suggest that. Cloyster makes a passable (and unexpected) Rain Dance lead with Rain Dance, Surf, Explosion, and Damp Rock or Focus Sash. Fire is almost always a Special attacking type, so rain will aid Cloyster a bit. The last move doesn't matter too much, Ice Beam is STAB, but not boosted by the rain, only Cloyster's middling base 85 Special Attack, and Rapid Spin is always nice on any set, but Cloyster shouldn't be switched into Stealth Rock to spin it away. For a set like that, a -speed nature would probably be a good idea, since Cloyster will be using physical and special moves. Priority is always nice, but in my case, with Explosion and Rock Blast already being walled by Steel-types, and defensive Grounds taking little from a 60 Base Power attack (after STAB), I prefer the extra hazard. I didn't use Surf because I like all of the current EVs, but that seems like a good idea if you want to mess with Donphan without offing Cloyster.

    The quoted post is from the suggested movesets thread, but I began to see that this would be much better here as I was typing this giant wall of text. I think I repeated things too much, and I may have capitalized or not capitalized the wrong things, so if anything is confusing or wrong, I'd appreciate it if someone could point it out (Someone's crazy enough to read this whole thing? :-P). What I'm suggesting is fairly different from the Life Orb set in the OP, but both are Cloyster anti-leads. I'm not sure if my set and Heysup's are similar enough that they should be in the same thread, or I should put this in a different thread, or it's not considered good enough for a thread, but I thought I'd put it out there. Heysup, I guess this would cover the whole updating for current UU thing, feel free to put parts of this in the OP if you want.
  20. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Oh boy.

    More useful than surf or Ice Shard would be? I don't think it's even close tbh, the Rock Blast with Ice Shard set is horribly walled by anything with decent defense, especially Spinners like Claydol, Hitmontop, and even Kabuto, while the Surf + Rock Blast set lacks priority.

    Froslass Tbolt and Alakazam's Psychic are survived by running a spread 160 HP / 252 Atk / 96 SpD. Life Orb makes sure you aren't completely forked by a solid Spinner, while it also guarantees the KO on Proslass.

    I do agree with Rock Blast being effective and useful, especially versus SubPunchers not named Poliwrath and SubStallers though, it would obviously be included in the set, just it would include Surf and Ice Shard. Froslass is still the main / only reason to run it over Surf / Ice Shard though.
    I know it's viable. I used it for a long time on the ladder (look at my TUF RMT), but I really think this update should wait until Froslass' status is decided.
    Toxic Spikes early are never a good idea, and without Leftovers or Life Orb, you won't be doing much early-mid, or even mid-late game. You are walled by absolutely everything that resists Rock, and you don't even OHKO Proslass, who can set up 2 Layers of Spikes on you, or just one and switch out.

    Anyway, tl;dr:

    You didn't explain why I should update this when Froslass' may be banned. You even agreed that it was a major part of Cloyster being good.

    I don't really see what your set does that the normal set wouldn't, especially since it loses to Proslass.
  21. iliketurkeybacon

    iliketurkeybacon

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    The moves obviously depend on what your team needs. Like I said at the end of my post, it seems that the set I'm mentioning has deviated very far from your set, so it's almost an apples to oranges comparison. What my set, with Rock Blast, lacks in priority, it makes up for with added speed. This Cloyster doesn't try to take weaker Surfs, it outruns their users (Blastoise, Milotic) and can set up Spikes or use Explosion when it seems to be the best time. With the Brave nature of the Life Orb set, Blastoise and Hitmontop can outrun Cloyster and spin away the Spikes (or possibly KO if Cloyster is weakened in Hitmontop's case), and Ice Shard isn't nearly as useful on a lead now that Roserade is gone. There are many leads that try to counter Froslass with an attack that breaks its Focus Sash and priority, but with Rock Blast, Cloyster doesn't need Ice Shard in that respect. In my earlier post, I explained why I use Toxic Spikes on my team. Without them, I have trouble with stall, and they bait Poison-types early so I can explode on them. I'm happy to have my Toxic Spikes absorbed if I can take out Venusaur, who troubles my team the most. If i were to suggest a move in general, it would be Ice Shard, but while it is a useful move, it doesn't help against any common leads to my knowledge. Donphan gets exploded on first, and Surf wasn't doing much to Registeel in the first place- making it not worth it to me to split EVs. Rapid Spin is also a good move for Cloyster, if only to clear the hazards of other leads. This Cloyster isn't an anti-lead in the sense that it attempts to beat as many common leads as possible, but it puts its team in a favorable position against most leads.

    Like I said, I think our sets are pretty different. Froslass sometimes run TrickSpecs, and most would just stay in and Thunderbolt. In fact, many Froslass with Thunderbolt forego Focus Sash and use Life Orb. Focus Sash on Cloyster also lets you set up without fear against slower leads packing super effective special attacks. You can get at least two layers of Spikes against Electrode leads if they don't Taunt (most seem to worry about Rain Dance first), or you could go with the 2hko with Rock Blast. This Cloyster is fast enough that it is sometimes useful with 1 HP late in the game.

    Rock Blast literally works on all SubPunchers I have played against besides Aggron. Rock Blast will break Toxicroak's Substitute, and that is really SubPunch Toxicroak's only option against Cloyster, since Sucker Punch and Ice Punch will be doing terrible damage. Froslass is the main reason to run Rock Blast like I said, but far from the only reason. Were Froslass banned, I probably wouldn't use Cloyster as a lead, but as sort of a utility Pokemon with Rock Blast for the Substitute users mentioned earlier.

    You can always change things after the tier changes, it would be good to at least remove Crobat/Roserade references. I think all of new UU is covered in my post- but once again, it seems like our sets are too different to say that something that's true for one is for the other. I think that what I described would be an "update", but it wasn't about your specific set. Perhaps I should see if this warrants a new thread?


    On my team, Toxic Spikes draw out Poison-types which I seek to take out as soon as possible. Also, many teams lack a Poison-type (the only really common one is Venusaur), so people with a spinner that can be Poisoned, like Hitmontop or Blastoise, will try to get them in after the first layer to avoid them getting "badly poisoned", so I've been able to get one layer of Toxic Spikes down and take out the opponent's spinner in many games. Toxic Spikes especially hinder stall, which my team otherwise had a problem with. If I manage to get Toxic Spikes down and take out the only team member that can remove them, that is a huge help in beating stall. Also, many people don't know that Cloyster has Toxic Spikes and don't expect them. That is something specific to my team though- Ice Shard and Rapid Spin are other viable moves that would fit on this set. This set OHKOs 4 HP/0 Defense Froslass every time, and a bulkier Froslass will go down in two hits. If that bulkier Froslass had Thunderbolt and was obviously designed to beat Cloyster, then yes, I would lose to it. Leftovers is a pretty useless item on Cloyster unless you try to make it a wall in the vein of Steelix where you max HP and Special Defense EVs. Cloyster takes special hits terribly, and can stick around a long time against non-Rock or Fighting physical attacks, with or without Leftovers. This Cloyster has a better chance of being around at the end of the game with Focus Sash, and is fast enough to Explode on slower enemies that are troubling your team that Brave Cloyster couldn't outrun. This lead isn't meant to beat any Steel-types, and taking around 70% off of Donphan with Explosion, while also protecting any hazards it had up, is good enough for me. I don't consider something that doesn't resist Explosion and that can be used to set up Spikes on to "wall" Cloyster.

    I wasn't trying to convince you, I was sort of trying to do it for you so you could copy and paste what you wanted, but I diverged from your set, so that probably wouldn't work any more. Froslass is a major reason why Cloyster is a lead in UU, but it isn't a major part of Cloyster being good. Your set in your RMT seemed good, and Cloyster didn't have access to Rock Blast back then (it might have helped with Crobat, I'm not sure). The presence of Froslass makes Cloyster leads far more common, opening up opportunities for more unconventional moves to work (maybe Toxic Spikes :D), similar to how Electrode can be a useful lead outside of Rain Dance teams. Cloyster also does very well against Alakazam- Rock Blast+Ice Shard will KO the common Counter leads every time, who often Taunt on the first turn fearing Spikes.

    I'm not quite sure what Prolass is, but I'm assuming it has Thunderbolt. That is the main reason why my Cloyster holds a Focus Sash. Even if Froslass has Thunderbolt and attacks instead of using Spikes/Taunt, my Cloyster wins if Rock Blast hits, unlike any Cloyster without Focus Sash, significant EV investment, or the obscure and otherwise useless Wacan Berry. If it is specifically designed to beat Rock Blast Cloyster by using defensive EVs and Thunderbolt, then every Cloyster would lose to it.
  22. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

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    Jun 14, 2007
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    1,678
    There's the obvious fact that Rock Blast is additionally useful on Cloyster against other Cloysters, as well as the occasional Stallrein or Lapras (particularly Sub + Dragon Dance). I think Rock Blast will always have its uses on Cloyster whether Froslass gets banned or not, it may just warrant a re-ordering of the slashes to reflect what is generally the most used or most useful option for the current environment.
  23. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

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    Jun 28, 2008
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    You guys are missing the point, I'm trying to say that there is really no reason to update the write up yet, because Froslass is such a big aspect of the lead metagame. It wasn't that I need trouble updating it, it's that the lead metagame will drastically change if Froslass is banned, meaning the write up will be way different and there may even be a different lead set (such as maybe something similar to the one turkeybacon suggested) altogether.

    Another thing is that I HAVE tested this (and got to #3 on the ladder actually) in a Froslass-less metagame. Meaning, chances are, it will probably stay the same minus a couple slashes. Still, it's too dependent on whether or not Froslass is in the metagame, especially for the write up's sake.

    This goes for almost all lead sets tbqh.
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