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Cloyster

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Bologo, Oct 2, 2010.

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  1. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Cloyster
    [​IMG]
    [Overview]

    • Icicle Spear, with its new base power of 25, is extremely strong with Cloyster's Skill Link, easily compensating for his 95 base Attack stat
    • Shell Break lets Cloyster break away from his defensive mould and attempt a sweep, which is quite possible thanks to his near-perfect coverage in 3 moves
    • Incredibly vulnerable to Vaccum Wave and any Specially offensive Pokemon with a Choice Scarf due to horrendous Special Defense, both of which end his sweep
    • Still a great supporter with access to Rapid Spin, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes
    [SET]
    name: Shell Breaker
    move 1: Shell Break
    move 2: Icicle Spear
    move 3: Rock Blast
    move 4: Hydro Pump
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Skill Link
    nature: Naughty / Naive
    evs: 252 Atk / 40 SpA / 216 Spe

    Set Comments


    • This set is Cloyster's attempt at a sweep
    • Coupled with Life Orb, Cloyster has 824 Atk, 561 SpA, and 460 Speed after one Shell Break, though it drops defenses by one stage each
    • Icicle Spear is the main move of choice a majority of the time due to 100% accuracy as well as being the strongest move on the set
    • Rock Blast gives very good super effective coverage with Icicle Spear
    • Hydro Pump adds coverage by OHKOing many Steel-types
    Additional Comments

    • Speed EVs allow Cloyster to outspeed base 90s holding a Choice Scarf as well as Adamant ScarfChomp
    • Attack EVs are maxed out to take advantage of Icicle Spear, which can OHKO most of the physical walls in the game after a Shell Break, and even 2HKO many pokemon that resist it after Stealth Rock damage
    • The rest of the EVs are dumped into Special Attack so that Cloyster can OHKO Steel-types such as Metagross, Jirachi, and Scizor with Hydro Pump a majority of the time after a Shell Break
    • An alternate spread is 252 Atk / 48 SpA / 208 Spe with a Naive nature, giving Cloyster 500 Speed to outspeed even a Jolly ScarfChomp after a Shell Break
    Teammates & Counters

    • Really appreciates Spin support, as entry hazards can make his sweep short-lived
    • While he can 2HKO them with Icicle Spear after Shell Break, a teammate such as Burunkeru or Celebi would be useful for taking on Poliwrath and Kerudio, both of whom resist the entire moveset
    • Pokemon who can set up Stealth Rock are also very good partners since many of Cloysters OHKOs and 2HKOs occur after Stealth Rock damage
    • Needs to watch out for ANY pokemon carrying Vaccum Wave, as the vast majority can OHKO even without Special Attack EVs
    [SET]
    name: Choicester
    move 1: Icicle Spear
    move 2: Rock Blast
    move 3: Shell Blade
    move 4: Explosion
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Skill Link
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe

    Set Comments

    • Relies on coming in as many times as possible and firing off Icicle Spear to do damage
    • Unlike Shell Breaker, Choicester relies on using Cloyster's bulk to come in several times during the match, rather than making him a glass cannon
    Additional Comments

    • Because it's using Cloyster's bulk, HP EVs are preferred to Speed EVs so that Cloyster can come in several times
    • 248 HP EVs instead of 252 because it allows him to come into Stealth Rock 5 times instead of 4 if it's necessary
    • Although it doesn't have the sweeping potential of the Shell Breaker set, it still holds enough force to 2HKO Skarmory and Nattorei with Icicle Spear after Stealth Rock, which is quite a feat for a physical Choice user
    Teammates & Counters

    • Unlike the Shell Breaker which merely appreciated Spin support, it's a necessity for Choicester to be effective due to constant switching
    • Appreciates support from Magnezone and Wobbuffet to take out Steels, which can wall Icicle Spear
    • Once again, Stealth Rock support is needed to achieve some of the major OHKOs and 2HKOs this set offers
    [SET]
    name: Utility
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Spikes / Toxic Spikes
    move 3: Icicle Spear
    move 4: Rock Blast
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Skill Link
    nature: Impish
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD

    Set Comments

    • Lets Cloyster put his support movepool to good use
    • Able to surprise opponents who expect a Shell Breaker, allowing a free layer of entry hazards or a free Rapid Spin
    • While it doesn't hit as hard as the other sets, it's still able to deal tons of damage to frail opponents

    Additional Comments


    • All EVs are dumped into HP and Special Defense with an Impish nature to let Cloyster take physical attacks well, while letting him survive against special attacks
    Teammates & Counters

    • Pokemon who can take advantage of Rapid Spin and/or entry hazards are good teammates
    • Dark-types with Pursuit can take out Spinblockers, making Rapid Spinning much easier
    • A teammate that can set up Stealth Rock is also a good idea, to take advantage of double hazard damage
    [Team Options]

    • Rapid Spinners are a good idea for most sets, though the Utility set can do without since he carries the move
    • Stealth Rock support is required for all sets, because the Shell Breaker and Choicester need it to get certain KOs, and Utility likes it for double entry hazard abuse
    • Pokemon that can take on really bulky Water-types as well as Steel-types are a good idea, because they're the ones most likely to wreck Cloyster's sweep
    [Optional Changes]

    • Ice Shard is an option on the Shell Breaker and Choicester for taking out Choice Scarf users, just be aware that it's not very strong, even after a Shell Break
    • Running enough Speed to outspeed minimum Speed base 90s such as Groudon and Giratina is an option on Choicester, as it can OHKO and 2HKO both
    • White Herb is an option on the Shell Breaker, but keep in mind that Cloyster won't be able to OHKO physical walls as well as he could with Life Orb
    [Counters]

    • Stealth Rock damage makes it hard for him to switch in and cause damage several times in the match
    • Horrible Special Defense means that even weak special attacks can 2HKO
    • Poliwrath and Kerudio with lots of HP and Defense EVs can be counters to the Shell Breaker, but must make sure that they're at very high HP beforehand, as they're mostly there to revenge-kill
    • Vaccum Wave wrecks any set, even without many Special Attack EVs
    • Specially-based Choice Scarfers can revenge-kill Cloyster
    [Dream World]

    • There is very little pay-off to using Cloyster's Dream World ability - Dust-proof in single battles
    • It costs him his best STAB move as well as his best coverage move in Icicle Spear and Rock Blast
    • In double or triple battles, it may prove useful for his partner(s) by nullifying damage from weather for them
  2. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    I've finished this to the best of my ability. If anyone has any suggestions for EVs on the Choicester and Utility set, that would be good, since I admittedly did choose simpler EV spreads for them.

    I hope I did the format correctly.

    Oh yeah, and by the way, I thought I might as well mention this while I'm here. If you're going to do any calculations with Icicle Spear, make sure you type in "25 x5 Ice Physical" into the damage calculator instead of "125 Ice Physical". While they may not look any different, the damage output is slightly different, so please keep that in mind.

    EDIT: I fixed some spacing issues with the bullets to make it look less overwhelming to the eye.
  3. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Looks good to me, marked as done. Side note, "Choicester" is a terrible set name. :P
    Cheers!
  4. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    I put White Herb into Optional Changes for the Shell Breaker, because even though I don't think it's the best option, it still helps against more offensive teams who might be carrying more priority.
  5. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Naive nature needs a mention for outspeeding all Scarf Garchomp after a Shell Break, which IMO is important if Cloyster wants to crawl into OU. It requires 250 Speed.
  6. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Ok, I put that in.
  7. revengeska

    revengeska

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    This might be a stupid question, but is Hydro Pump strictly better than Shell Blade on the Shell Breaker set?
  8. BubaOReally?

    BubaOReally?

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    It is because he can hit Phys. walls better.
  9. BubaOReally?

    BubaOReally?

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    I was wondering if you could slash spikes with Rock Blast on the shell break set. it might seem weird and he does lose coverage over waters, but spikes help him fill a supportive role in the beginning of the match. he also has enough power with Hydro Pump and ice spear to late game sweep. Maybe make a new Ev spread if you do it.
  10. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    There's really no point in sacrificing Cloyster's coverage for Spikes. He needs all of his coverage, or else there's going to be something that completely walls him. Ie. Bulky Waters if you take off Rock Blast, and physical walls, like you said, without Hydro Pump. That, and you don't really want your LO sweeper to be taking a lot of damage during the match since otherwise his sweep is going to be very short-lived.

    Also, I'm not writing this analysis anymore, I don't have the time until after exams are done, and I don't particularly feel like it either. Someone else needs to take it over.
  11. BubaOReally?

    BubaOReally?

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    But if he is meant to be a late game sweeper it would be inferenced that you have taken care of the things that stand in its way (Ie Bulky water types). and i think it might fake out a lot of players when they see spikes and think that your support and then you sweep them. it just something different, just trying to be creative.
  12. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

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    Are there some KOs the Shell Breaker needs Hydro Pump especially for? With all that SpA already I would prefer the consistency of Surf at first glance.

    EDIT: Checked a couple meta relevant things, Hydro Pump is really big for Skarm which probably makes the case for it:

    Surf | Hydro Pump
    SpD Skarm : 51.2-60.5 | 64.7-76.3
    Def Skarm : 74.9-88.3 | 94.6-111.7

    As for Scizor though, Neutral CB Bullet Punch does 59.8-70.5, so unless you got your Smash off totally clean (unlikely), it's probably going to beat you anyway.
  13. revengeska

    revengeska

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    Yes, I get that you're aiming for steels largely and they tend to be physical walls, it's just tricky. Does it have downsides over non-physical walls, type coverage wise?
  14. PooF

    PooF

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    I was wondering wouldn't ice shard deserve a slash or at least a mention in AC on the choicester set. I mean, choice band sets love STAB priority, especially pokemon with rather mediocre speed otherwise.
  15. Aeron Ee1

    Aeron Ee1 Nom nom nom
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    If Naive is only going to be mentioned in AC, then the Naive slash on the set should be removed..
  16. BubaOReally?

    BubaOReally?

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    the most common physical walls you will face are hippowdon, Nattorei, Skarm (i have never ran into a special defensive one) and lots of steel types. Hydro Pump is really just for those steel types and if you don't want it you can replace it with ice shard or explosion.

    It does not have a disadvantage over non-physical because icicle spear decimates everything that is not bulky water type, even swampert is OHKO (i think) with +2 Icicle spear. And rock blast takes out everything in-between.
  17. revengeska

    revengeska

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    What I was originally gonna do was go Adamant and use Shell Blade instead of Hydro Pump on the Shell Break set. However, after considering the usefulness of Hydro Pump, having a Naughty nature and putting Hydro Pump on there does seem a lot better. I'm going to try it out, thanks!
  18. deiphobus

    deiphobus

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    I'm pretty sure that nearly all Garchomps are Jolly, so you should fix the speed on the shell break so you can outrun Jolly ScarfChomps
  19. BubaOReally?

    BubaOReally?

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    agreed, max speed investment is a must this gen.
  20. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    The EV spread reaches 250 Speed, reaching 500 after a Shell Break, which is exactly 1 more point than Jolly ScarfChomp which lies at 499...

    No, Hydro Pump isn't for any of the first three you mentioned. Icicle Spear OHKOs all 3 of them after Shell Break no matter what their EV spread is after Stealth Rock. Hydro Pump is more for stuff like Metagross and Jirachi who won't take nearly enough from Icicle Spear, but will be killed by Hydro Pump. The only time I'd want Shell Blade is if I'm using a Rain team, since Shell Blade would be more powerful than Hydro Pump thanks to greater Attack and better accuracy.

    At this point, I'm not going to answer anymore questions in this thread. If someone else wants to write up the analysis for this thing, then go ahead. I already said I'm not going to write it.
  21. revengeska

    revengeska

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    Bologo, if you don't want to come on and answer any more questions, then don't. My questions weren't directed at you specifically but anyone who can answer them.

    Massive improvement for Cloyster over DPP, probably the ice-type pokemon that has gained the most. Considering it now takes out many of the pokemon that ice types are countered by, it seems like a good addition to a Battle Subway team, which I guess is my main reason for breeding it now.(I'm using my girlfriend's computer and am too lazy to spend any significant time on Shoddy or whatever is used these days)
  22. VentusVictory

    VentusVictory

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    I'm using RNG abuse in my Platinum right now to get a shiny Cloyster that I'll add to my Gev V Battle Subway team too.

    Quick question: How can Cloyster still use Shell Blade if he's already used Shell Break? Does he throw the shards at the enemy?
  23. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    The same reason you can't throw a bomb made of mud at a floating doll- The game doesn't always follow logic.
  24. revengeska

    revengeska

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    Or maybe just takes the shards and swings them at enemies.. In a way it makes more sense than before Shell Break, because when you look at Cloyster's picture you don't see any blades lol.
  25. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    As far as the Cloyster analysis goes, I might write this if the time is right for me. I am currently in progress of Staraptor and Hariyama, so if anybody else volunteers, I'll be happy to oblige.

    If you guys are going to post here, at least have some real competitive substance in your post. We are also doing the analysis based on WiFi OU, not Subway.
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