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Cold Wave

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Fireburn, May 11, 2013.

  1. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    [​IMG]

    What's up? It's been awhile.

    I left Smogon some time ago so I could focus on school and getting into college. But though I left the site, my love for the game never left me. With X and Y on the clear horizon and some school stuff drying up now that high school graduation is just around the corner, I decided to start getting into competitive Pokemon again. I tried OU for awhile, but let's face - OU sucks. I went back to my original home, Ubers, and found it to be just as good as I remembered it, and I've been having a lot of fun with this team I created for it. I'm not a serious ladderer and I won't even try to claim having a million ladder points, a 40-win streak, 360 No Scope No Stealth Rock 6-0 sweeps, or something inane like that, but this team has a pretty consistent win ratio and has beaten some good players. More importantly, it's one of the few teams I've made where I've felt like it has been a genuinely good team, one that fits my style, and one that I can be proud of. Because of that, I'd like this team to be as good as I can get it, and I'd appreciate some help in doing just that from people who know BW2 Ubers a bit better than I do. :]

    I'm not going to bore you with a long Introduction, so here's the team. It's a Rain Semi-stall build, focusing on punching holes with Kyurem-W and stalling out the crushed remains with poison and a solid defensive core:

    At A Glance

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The Details


    [​IMG]

    Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 204 Spd / 52 Def
    Modest Nature
    - Water Spout
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder
    - Surf

    Kyogre isn't usually who I lead with, mind you. That honor is given to Kyurem-W, who is capable of taking down most common leads in one shot with its crushing blows. Instead, Kyogre is used conservatively, meant to set up rain and check otherwise troublesome offensive Pokemon. It is perhaps the most conservatively played Pokemon on this team, only seeing battle when it is needed as its revenge killing role and ability to check Ghost Arceus, Dakrai, and Mewtwo is crucial to making this team work. It can also sweep late-game with its mighty Water Spout once my core has done its work, which is also why I like to keep this bloated whale around for the long haul. Rain is also useful for activating Tentacruel's Rain Dish and removing Jirachi and Arceus's Fire weaknesses. Basically, Kyogre checks sun and hyper offense while serving as a nice glue Pokemon and late-game cleaner. There's not much else to say, Kyogre's job is pretty simple.

    Water Spout is my main move and I pretty much just spam it while I can. It OHKOes even +1 Mewtwo, does tremendous damage to Ghost Arceus, and OHKOes pretty much everything that doesn't resist it (and some things that do). Surf is for when I am too weak to use Water Spout, chosen over Hydro Pump since I can't afford to have my revenge killer miss a crucial attack that could lead to me getting swept. Ice Beam and Thunder are the standard coverage moves and are useful for picking off weakened Palkia, Lati@s, and opposing Kyogre, especially when backed up by Toxic Spikes.

    I find Modest Scarf Kyogre generally more useful than Timid as the extra power is quite significant in most cases, not to mention it helps a lot against Arceus. The EVs are pretty straightforward: max SpA is for POWER, 204 Spd beats Rash Deoxys-A and Mewtwo, and the rest goes into Def in case Kyogre needs to take an Extremespeed or something.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald
    - Toxic

    Tentacruel used to be pretty bad in Ubers until 5th Gen came along and gave him Scald and Rain Dish, turning him from a waste of space into a pretty nice utility Pokemon. His most important job is Rapid Spin, and he does a pretty good job at it: Giratina-O hates Scald burns (as do most hazard setters in Ubers), Ghost Arceus dies to Toxic Spikes and Jirachi, and Giratina gives me an excuse to throw down Toxic Spikes. Speaking of Toxic Spikes, they are truly nasty in Ubers due to the lack of viable Poison-types. Tentacruel usage seems to be falling significantly due to Lati@s running around and threatening everything, so most opposing teams don't have a reliable way of removing them. Because of this, Tentacruel + Giratina tend to absolutely own most stall and defense tieams I face, as I can just sit there until their walls shrivel up and die, hehe. Tentacruel also absorbs Toxic Spikes automatically, which is really nice as they screw up a good chunk of my team. Rain Dish also allows Tentacruel to stick around for quite a while and he can also beat other Forretress and Magic Bounce Pokemon with rain boosted Scalds, a big reason why I chose him over Forretress. His Fighting resistance is also handy at times.

    Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes are the reasons I'm using Tentacruel. Spin keeps hazards off my side of the field, especially Spikes as I have no Levitating/Flying Pokemon. Toxic Spikes ruin stuff such as Chansey and defensive Kyogre that would otherwise be hard to overcome, and it makes it easier to handle offensive Pokemon such as Mewtwo. I do, however, tend to be cautious as to when I throw them down: only getting one layer can make it really hard to stall out something like Ghost Arceus for example. I also tend to prefer burning physical Arceus sets as well, though this is not as significant a worry. Because of this, I usually do not set Toxic Spikes up unless I know I can get down both layers before something dangerous comes in, or I know what Arceus my opponent has. The one except is if my opponent has Chansey, in which case I'll set down Toxic Spikes immediately to make it easier for Kyurem-W to bust through it. Scald is STAB and burns Ferrothorn, which is always nice. Toxic allows me to poison Giratina-O that try to set up a Substitute against Tentacruel, making it easier to stall out, and it helps check CM Ghost and Fighting Arceus too. It used to be Ice Beam, but I honestly never used Ice Beam and Toxic + Scald burn is usually enough to make Rayquaza think twice.

    Standard EVs are standard, enough in Def to survive Giratina-O's Earthquake at full HP with the rest going to SDef for taking hits.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Turboblaze
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Draco Meteor
    - Focus Blast
    - Earth Power

    This guy is the definition of raw power. Whatever is unfortunate enough to get switched into him is probably going to die unless it is a pink blob, and even the pink blobs aren't safe thanks to Toxic Spikes. Kyurem-W is nearly unwallable, especially with the rest of the team built to let him do work and take advantage of the holes he smashes.

    It might seem weird to use something like Kyurem-W on such a defensive team, but he really does fit well here. This beast helps the team work by punching enormous holes into the opponent's squad and ruining their cores enough to where my defensive Pokemon can easily wall and stall what is left. Kyurem-W also helps my team take out a few troublesome things that are hard to stall out: having something that can OHKO Lugia and Giratina on command is a real blessing, and he also walls the crap out of Grass Arceus, a troublesome threat to any rain team. The rest of team supports him well by giving him Toxic Spikes to help break defensive Kyogre, Water Arceus, and Chansey as well as providing Rapid Spin from Tentacruel and Wish support from Jirachi to help keep him alive and get him into battle. However, the most valuable support my team gives Kyurem-W is switch-in opportunities; a good few Pokemon on my team bait in things I can double switch Kyurem-W in on to wreck something. Groudon wants to put and end to Jirachi's shenanigans? Double switch to Kyurem-W. Grass Arceus thinks it can wall Kyogre? Kyurem-W will put a stop to that. Giratina wants to block my Tentacruel's Rapid Spin? In comes Kyurem-W as punishment. Kyurem-W punishes my opponent for playing predictably, forcing them to take risks that could leave them in a bad position against my other Pokemon. He's much more of a team player than what he originally seems to be, and overall I have been very satisfied with his performance.

    (Also, smashing things with 723 Special Attack Draco Meteors is just plain fun! :3)

    Draco Meteor and Ice Beam are the STABs that make him so much of a threat. The former's power is overwhelming and is usually spammed because it punches massive holes in everything and even manages like 40% to Chansey. The latter, on the other hand, is consistent and extremely potent given Ice's excellent offense coverage on the Ubers metagame. Focus Blast is there to kill pink blobs, Ferrothorn, and Tyranitar, easily besting Chansey in two hits after Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. Earth Power is mainly just there for Jirachi and the odd Heatran. However, I pretty much never use Earth Power, and am considering dropping it for Fusion Flare so I could have a move that OHKOes lead Forretress and Skarmory guaranteed.

    EVs are standard for a special attacker, with Modest chosen for more POWER. I am considering switching to a bulky spread to allow Kyurem-W to take more of an advantage of his solid 125/90/100 defenses, especially considering hardly anything in the base 90 Speed crowd runs close to max Speed. I'm not sure what would be optimal, however.

    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 216 SDef / 252 HP / 12 Def / 28 SAtk
    Careful Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Thunder
    - Iron Head / Ice Punch

    Glue Pokemon, primary special wall, and stalling machine, Jirachi is what makes the team work. With this set and support from Kyogre's rain, Jirachi is capable of countering and stalling out a long list of offensive Pokemon, including but not limited to most CM Arceus (especially that jerk Ghost Arceus), Mewtwo, Darkrai, Shaymin-S, Lati@s, Kyurem-W and Tornadus-T. In the rain, Jirachi is easily capable of taking their hits and then spamming Wish + Protect until they wither and die from Toxic Spikes. Wish support in general is helpful for this team as Jirachi can easily pass it to any of my other Pokemon: Kyurem-W scares out Jirachi counters, and everything else resists at least one or two of Jirachi's weaknesses. In short, Jirachi keeps the team alive and is easily my favorite defensive Steel in Ubers at the moment. I have considered using Ferrothorn a few times instead for Spikes, but Jirachi is just way too useful to give up.

    As useful as Jirachi is, it wasn't actually on the first version of this team. The first iteration had Forretress and Tyranitar over Tentacruel and Jirachi to help faciliate Kyogre sweeps by Pursuiting Latias. However, having Forry as my only Dragon resist kinda sucked as it tended to die quickly, and sand hurt my team more than it helped it. I ditched TTar for Jirachi for a sturdier Dragon resist and replaced Forry with Tentacruel for a more consistent spinner, and that has worked much better ever since. Jirachi is really the glue of the team and I've loved using it in Ubers since I first started in Gen 4 when Platinum first came out.

    Thunder makes Jirachi super annoying - it breaks Ho-Oh's Substitute, hurts Skarmory and Forretress a lot, and makes Kyogre think twice before coming in. Paralysis support is also a boon to my relatively slow team, which is nice. It used to be Toxic, but Thunder has overall been better for pressuring the aforementioned threats, and I can still usually beat Ghost Arceus by paraflinch. I alternate between using Iron Head and Ice Punch and I'm not sure which one is better. Iron Head kills Kyurem formes and, in conjuction with Toxic Spikes, allows Jirachi to run over slow defensive Pokemon such as Giratina and Blissey, helping a lot versus stall teams. It also lets me paraflinch things and generally be evil. However, Ice Punch destroys Shaymin-S and hurts Rayquaza more while still hurting Lati@s and Giratina-O. It is also a nice deterrent for Gliscor.

    EVs are give me enough SpA to always break Ho-Oh's Substitutes while maximizing special bulk. The 12 Def EVs are kinda random, but they help me take random Outrages and the like.

    [​IMG]

    Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 112 Spd / 248 HP / 148 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Judgment
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover

    Mr. Utility himself, Grass Arceus in the rain is one of the best defensive Pokemon around. His main job is to counter Kyogre, Groudon, and Excadrill, though he's also wonderful against Zekrom, Thundurus, Manaphy, Kingdra, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Water and Ground Arceus, and the Sinnoh Dragons provided rain is up. He's an excellent check to rain and sand teams and is a good Pokemon to throw around in troublesome situations. Grass Arceus is also my best check to Rayquaza, though I have to be really careful as V-Create makes Grass Arceus a sad (and probably dead) panda.

    Grass Arceus is my chosen Stealth Rock setter and he usually finds opportunities to set it up. I sometimes wish I could use another move instead, but I can't really afford to give Stealth Rock to Jirachi and risk spreading it too thinly. Judgment is reliable STAB, chosen over Grass Knot so I could hurt Manaphy instead of being walled by it. Ice Beam kills Rayquaza and Gliscor and hurts Zekrom and predicted Shaymin-S switch-ins. I have considered Stone Edge over Ice Beam a few times for Ho-Oh, but the phoenix so far hasn't been troublesome enough to this team to warrant the switch. Recover should be obvious lol.

    EVs give me enough Speed to outpace Garchomp with the rest going into special bulk to help take on Kyogre and Palkia.

    [​IMG]

    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Roar

    Giratina rounds out the team by blocking Rapid Spin and checking troublesome physical attackers. His main purpose is to counter Extremekiller, and he's also great against most other physical Arceus, Ho-Oh, Terrakion, Blaziken, Jirachi, mono-attacker Kyogre, and Kabutops. Giratina is extremely difficult to kill and spinblocks basically everything, which helps a lot against stall teams. Leftovers and better defenses are why I picked him over Giratina-O, as it allows him to counter these threats much more reliably. Not much else to say about Giratina, he does his job and does it well.

    Rest and Sleep Talk provide healing and allows Giratina to absorb status, letting him stick around for quite a while. Will-O-Wisp neutralizes pretty much any physical threat, while Roar is for phazing and racking up hazards damage. I originally used Dragon Tail, but Roar doesn't miss and allows me to phaze Substitute users. The consistency is worth being completely owned by Taunt in my opinion.

    EVs maximize physical defense with a bit of speed creep for getting around other base 90 walls such as Groudon and defensive Kyogre.

    Big Threats


    Most things are pretty manageable, though these Pokemon can give me a lot of trouble:

    [​IMG]
    Rayquaza - Biggest threat to the team by far. Rayquaza is incredibly hard to switch into and one mispredict means I'm usually screwed. Grass Arceus is my best answer, though V-Create means he's somewhat shaky at best. Fortunately, Rayquaza can't really set up on anything on my team, and Stealth Rock + Life Orb cuts down on his lifespan dramatically, so he's usually not a threat for long. However, he'll usually deal some serious damage before going down.

    [​IMG]
    Reshiram - Similar to Rayquaza, hazards keep it at bay but predicting around it is hard. Fortunately, no one uses Reshiram anymore, which is actually somewhat depressing. :[

    [​IMG]
    Bisharp -
    Massive threat if it manages to set up, though its not common enough to really worry about too much. It's immune to poison and beats Giratina which is super annoying. -.-

    [​IMG]
    Ghost Arceus - I can usually beat it with teamwork from Jirachi and Kyogre, but it's still annoying as nothing on my team resists Ghost.

    [​IMG]
    Wobbuffet - Custap Wobb is just a jerk in general, especially if it traps Kyogre. Get Toxic Spikes down ASAP and don't be stupid against Destiny Bond.

    So, that's the team. I'd really appreciate some advice on it; I know I've been out of the Ubers loop for awhile and I know you guys can help make this team better. Rate away! :)

    CHANGES I'M TESTING


    Forry > Tentacruel - Rejected, Forry made my team too weak to sun.

    Toxic > Ice Beam on Tentacruel - Kept.
    Thunder > Toxic on Jirachi - Kept.
    Stone Edge > Ice Beam on Grass Arceus - Decided to keep Ice Beam.

    SpD Ogre > Scarf Ogre - It was alright, but ScarfOgre is overall much more useful.

    Giratina-O > Giratina-A

    Importable (open)
    Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 204 Spd / 52 Def
    Modest Nature
    - Water Spout
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder
    - Surf

    Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald
    - Toxic

    Kyurem-White @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Turboblaze
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Ice Beam
    - Draco Meteor
    - Focus Blast
    - Earth Power

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 216 SDef / 252 HP / 12 Def / 28 SAtk
    Careful Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Thunder
    - Iron Head

    Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 112 Spd / 248 HP / 148 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Judgment
    - Ice Beam
    - Recover

    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Roar

  2. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    The first time I saw this team (which was in a funsie with a friend) it instantly jumped out as interesting to me. I really like how you use Kyurem to punch holes with a strong defensive backbone to support the many switches you'll be forced into.

    There's a few soft spots though that will probably need some buffing. Ho-Oh is really a pain for this team as it finds many opportunities to switch-in and while you lack means to deal with it in the long term. Your only safe switch-in is Giratina which is not only needed to spin block (sorta) but it can't really do much back besides phaze while Ho-Oh roosts or makes you eat another Brave Bird. Ferrothorn has quite a few threats it can come in on and can then proceed to setup Spikes or pester the threats that could force it out with Leech Seed. Your lack of steel types or dragon neutral physical walls means it is that much easier for a Scarf Mence to clean your team mid-late game. The lack of Spikes on your team really hurts it in general as you can't really take much advantage of the many forced switches you team causes besides Kyurem.

    I think the steel typing and Spikes really makes Forretress a better choice over Tentacruel. You won't even need T Spikes much anymore as Forretress can easily use any Pink Blobs that try to come in on Kyurem as Spikes fodder that'll let you muscle past them later as well as wear down the rest of the opposing team. The dragon resist and solid defense (even when uninvested) helps with Scarf Mence. Ferrothorn can't use PWhip and Seeds to wear down Forretress like it can with Tentacruel. Running Pain Split on Forry will help give it some longevity and turn the Ferrothorn matchup into a very favorable one. Afterwards, the choice between Toxic and Volt Switch are up to personal preference. Crippling the spin blockers that aren't massive Spikes fodder as well as checking Ghostceus/Ekiller are some appealing advantages to Toxic. Volt Switch helps you to keep momentum and can be used to pivot an easy switch in for Kyurem-W. Sadly, Forretress doesn't help with your Ho-Oh weakness besides allowing you to soften up the team around it for a potential Kyogre clean. Ho-Oh has an arguably better matchup due to the lack of Scald however Toxic/Volt Switch on the switch-in will help cripple/wear it down in ways Tentacruel can't.

    I'm not sure what else you can do to help with Ho-Oh without radically changing up your team. I guess it'll just be something you'll have to try to nail on the switch-in or play around. Some other minor things to consider would be U-Turn on Jirachi. There are obvious drawbacks to using it over Iron Head/Ice Punch however being able to pivot Kyurem in safely as well as ensure it gets the Wish has some uses. Hopefully somebody better than me will find some better ways to get past some of your road blocks. (I'm not sure what to do about Ray/Ho-Oh, a Rockceus looks like it would be pretty on your team although that would mean shifting things around to deal with the lack of Grassceus.)
  3. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Thanks for the rate and the kind words! Kyurem-W is actually the one who usually ends up disposing of Ho-oh/Ferro. Both of them like to come in only to find Specs Ice Beam 2HKOes, and combined with Scald Burns from Tenta (Ferro) or a predicted Toxic from Jirachi (Ho-Oh), they don't usually last TOO long. They can be pretty annoying though, especially Ferrothorn. Scarf Mence is definitely annoying as well, but its not usually strong enough to break Jirachi or Arceus, and I've never been swept by it (knocks on wood). That said, I figured someone would suggest Forry over Tentacruel again lol. Pain Split is a cool suggestion as it helps fix my main beef with Forry (dying too fast). I like Tentacruel's special bulk and automatic Toxic Spikes absorption though, but I'll definitely give Forry a shot. Thanks again and glad you like the team!
  4. Donkey

    Donkey

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    This team is based off of an interesting yet slightly gimmicky concept, and I like it for the most part. However, I wonder how you beat opposing stall or semistall teams, especially ones with Forretress and/or Ho-Oh. The team looks like it relies too heavily on prediction with Kyurem-W to break cores, and you will generally have only 3-4 switchins if the enemy team gets up early Stealth Rocks. And without Kyurem, this team is a weak rain stall.

    I also think your team has too many pokemon that are simply bait for other pokemon. Since your defensive core is strong while Kyurem is alive, this isn't a problem, but late game once hazards are up you will get demolished. To help check this you can run Thunder on Jirachi (pressure forry, tenta, ogre, arc steel, skarm more) and Stone Edge on arceus-grass.

    This team is also really weak to CM Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-o, Arceus-Fight, etc because you don't run toxic on Tenta. Ice Beam is nice for Rayquaza, but since Giratina-O's carry EQ you'd be better off Toxicing then swapping to Arceus-Grass or something. This does mean V-create becomes more threatening, but Rayquaza can already switch in on 3 members of your team after something dies.

    Nice team overall.
  5. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Thanks for the rate! I really like the Thunder suggestion on Jirachi as it helps against things that annoy Kyurem-W, I'll definitely give it a shot. Toxic on Tentacruel I'll definitely try as well - to tell the truth, I've only used Ice Beam maybe once lol. Giratina-O isn't too much of an issue as I can generally beat it with Arceus-Grass, but I see how it helps against CM Arceus and is definitely worth considering.

    I'll also try Stone Edge on Arceus-Grass - I'm a little worried about losing Ice Beam against Zekrom and GiraO, but I think I'll manage fine.

    To answer your question, my main strategy for beating enemy stall is to set down Toxic Spikes ASAP and use Kyurem-W early game to smash their walls. I will usually lead Tenta to throw down TSpikes or Kyurem-W to discourage early Stealth Rock. I do have to predict with him to make it work, but Kyurem-W's power does generally pressure my opponent to make conservative plays, so I can usually do it. However, it doesn't always work out, I will admit. The team is very reliant on Kyurem-W + Toxic Spikes in its present form to beat full stall teams, definitely. The most difficult matchup for this team I've found is actually classic stall with Giratina-A + Chansey as I have to predict perfectly with Kyurem-W in order to win and Giratina-A is much harder to bust through than GiraO or Ghost Arceus so I can spin freely, but as long as I can kill Chansey than Kyurem-W usually cleans up.

    If their spinblocker isn't Giratina-A, sometimes I can just set TSpikes with Tentacruel and phaze everything to death with Giratina.

    Thanks again and glad you like the team!
  6. Donkey

    Donkey

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    Yeah, the gira-o issue with not running toxic means sub Gira-O subs and spams Dtail, or Tenta dies to break sub then you send in something to kill it. gl
  7. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I actually don't agree with forgoing Ice Beam on Grass Arceus, just for the sake of Gliscor. Using Toxic on both Jirachi or Tenta (even Thunder breaks the Sub if you use 28 SpA EVs) should do well enough in my opinion. You have Giratina to phaze it too, so get up SR ASAP. You're also giving Rayquaza another chance to setup D:

    The problem with this team is that it's too slow. Kyogre just isn't cutting it, lol. Thing is, there isn't much of a room to put in a fast Choice Scarf user such as Genesect or Terrakion, making Pokemon like Rayquaza or Salamence big threats. I do think you could do better by using SDef Ogre > Scarf Ogre; gives you a better chance to win weather war, checks Kyurem-W and counter Reshiram brilliantly, and can limit setup attempts with Roar. Mewtwo is wrecked by Jirachi in Rain, same goes for Shaymin-S, and Darkrai is countered much harder now. Ghost/Fighting Arceus will have more trouble vs you. You can try use Rest/Sleep Talk/Scald/Ice Beam just for Rayquaza lol, but Roar and Stealth Rock + Burn rate from Scald should keep it at bay from setting up. Smart play should catch it off guard. I support Donkey's Toxic Tenta and Thunder Rachi idea, just make sure to use 28 SpA Evs so you could break Ho-Oh's Sub.

    Very nice team, glad to see you're alive :>
  8. Fireburn

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    Thanks for the rate wolfie boy. :P I'm a little hesitant to drop Scarf on Kyogre as it would make my team even slower and I like ScarfOgre's lategame sweeping potential (it helps a lot against sun), but I'll give SpDOgre a shot for sure. Extra Darkrai/CM Ghostceus insurance is always good.

    I tried the other proposed changes this morning and have decided to keep Thunder on Jirachi and Toxic on Tentacruel. Both have been working very well, particularly Thunder as paralysis helps my slow team quite a bit. I'm not sure yet on Stone Edge on Grass Arceus, the Ho-Oh deterrent is nice but I can usually beat Ho-Oh between Kyogre/Kyurem-W/Giratina and Stealth Rock. Losing Ice Beam vs. Giratina-O and Rayquaza has also sucked in a few matches. I'll keep playing with it though.

    I also tried Forry over Tenta and decided that Forry wasn't really working out. It made me weaker to Fire attacks and sun teams as a whole and accentuated my weaknesses to Reshiram and Rayquaza as Forry can't do much to any of them. (The first match I tried with Forry I actually went up against a sun team and got swept by Scarf Genesect with Flamethrower, with Tentacruel I would probably have won lol.) It was a good suggestion but I just don't think it fits well on this team.
  9. Donkey

    Donkey

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    I understand being polite and all, but Forretress is simply a terrible suggestion. If you had special defensive Kyogre it would be fine, but Forretress needs a bulky water or a bulky fire type or the synergy of the team means an inherent weakness to Reshiram/Palkia/Dialga if sun is up.

    There's not really a reason to my post other than letting you know it's fine to forsake politeness for accuracy, lol.
  10. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Bump.

    After trying Stone Edge vs. Ice Beam on Arceus, I think I am going to keep Ice Beam just for consistency/the ability to always OHKO Rayquaza. Stone Edge was useful at times, but Ice Beam is overall better imo.

    Will test SpDOgre soon. Any more rates?
  11. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Fireburn :D I have to rate this before I leave.

    Stone Edge doesn't hit all the time and it's weak :[ I will say keep Ice Beam because without it, you are even walled by Giratina-O who can actually deal a lot of damage to your team. Only Kyurem-W can actually threaten to OHKO it, Kyogre can 2HKO with Ice Beam but the rest of the moves are resisted. It cannot come in on full power Water Spout though :P Jirachi won't like Earthquake variants, I guess you can flinch it to death lol, I recommend going with some Speed creep. Stone Edge doesn't even KO Rayquaza after Stealth Rock :[ Rayquaza beats you one-on-one then and you lose your only check to Mixed Rayquaza D: V-Create OHKOes after SR and Fire Blast + ExtremeSpeed will do the same.

    Remove Ice Beam and the whole team dies to SD Rayquaza D: It can setup on choice locked Kyogre, Jirachi sometimes, and Tentacruel. Everything is OHKOed at +2 and your Giratina can only Roar/Burn it even after it V-Creates :[ Kyogre will die after a little prior damage which is likely to happen late game. Stone Edge's accuracy just sucks, and you have Kyogre + Giratina, you don't need to fear your favorite pokemon till that extend :P Specs Kyurem-W is also a great lure for it, since Specs Ice Beams 2HKOes standard Ho-Oh.

    The problem with setting up Toxic Spikes and winning with Giratina is, Giratina-O outruns your Giratina :[ Spikes stacking teams will be annoying to face really, unless their spinblocker is Ghost Arceus which you can beat with Toxic Tentacruel :D Toxic is a great choice over Protect.

    Another thing is how do you actually kill Dialga? D: I know Kyurem can OHKO it with Draco Meteor but it can come in on everything else and phaze. Draco Meteor smashes Giratina. Jirachi will wall Dialga in rain but you can't do anything back, except hax it then get in Kyurem-W? Thunder Dialga is a real annoyance, I know Arceus-Grass walls Dialga too but you can't touch it outside of weak Ice Beams.

    Just saying no Ground-immune :[ Watch out for powerful Earthquake abusers, although Grass Arceus and Giratina can handle most of them :D Offensive Groudon variants can easily come in on Tentacruel and Jirachi, then fire off free Earthquakes, Giratina has to Rest soon and Arceus-Grass doesn't like Fire Punch, not a big problem though :) The more annoying issue is Spikes, the whole team takes full damage from Spikes, and you need to get around their spinblocker to spin.

    Garchomp in the sand, is also one of the few reasons to use Ice Beam, because Judgment just can't OHKO it. Kyogre revenges but can't switch in.

    To me, I will keep Scarf Kyogre, unless you are planning to make Kyurem-W scarf instead. Specs Kyogre lures in Ferrothron and rapes it. SpD Kyogre makes you lose the ability to revenge kill Excadrill, Garchomp and Groudon reliably. Not really common but RestTalk Giratina-O walls your team, and it can phaze with Spikes which will hurt your team greatly. Unless Kyurem-W can get in safely of course, Rest ones just make them immune to Tentacruel.

    I am sure you can play around Reshiram since you have Kyogre + Tentacruel. If it comes in on Jirachi/Giratina and outpredicts you things can get ugly though D: I know you tried Giratina-O but I think it is a better pokemon for this team. Spikes will be such a wonderful addition to this team if you can fit it in. You can't add in Ferrothorn though as your team really needs Grass Arceus for Rayquaza.

    -It gives you a Ground-immune not really needed with Grass Arceus but it makes you less Spikes weak, a great advantage when facing opposing stall.
    -You beat Ho-Oh better with Giratina-O actually, because you can 2HKO it with Outrage.
    -I think your team lacks a real way to take out some bulky Arceus forms when they are poisoned by first Toxic Spikes layer ( You can't parahax with Jirachi or Toxic it anymore! ) such as Ghost Arceus. Giratina can't do anything do it while Giratina-O can 2HKO with Outrage, unboosted Judgment doesn't OHKO. At least you have a way to knock out Arceus when you can't phaze it anymore, pretty useful for those rare Recover Extremekiller or even things like Calm Mind Water Arceus lol. End-game Extremekiller can easily OHKO Kyurem-W after Stealth Rock and Kyogre will die as well to a boosted hit. Jirachi can't wall Judgment Water Arceus in rain, and having another check besides Grass Arceus is great. You need a crit to KO it if they outrun you :[
    -I know this is even rarer but Calm Mind Kyogre with Rest will be hard to KO, you have to catch it on the switch with your own Kyogre or Arceus-Grass. Otherwise it can survive a hit, grab another boost and spam Rest till you crit it or you lose. Outrage lets you at least do some damage to it. Same case with the rarely seen Manaphy as it is immune to Toxic Spikes and will freely grab boosts on Tentacruel and Jirachi, you can't hax it due to hydration. Manaphy is a lot weaker though and much less bulky specially :D Tail Glow variants are not a problem because those are easily revenge killed and Kyurem-W can OHKO it easily.

    This is the Giratina-O set, Roar is fine over Outrage if you need it.
    Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 72 HP / 136 Atk / 252 Def / 48 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rest
    - Outrage
    - Sleep Talk

    You will actually deal a lot more damage in the process compared to Giratina, Outrage seems dumb but it won't lock you in when picked by Sleep Talk. Losing Will-O-Wisp does sort of suck but you have Scald on Tentacruel. Just something you can try out. Ferrothorn will be more annoying since you can't burn it anymore with Giratina. Grass Arceus will kill Ferrothorn eventually anyway or putting Will-O-Wisp on Grass Arceus is possible if you are willing to remove Jirachi's Protect for Stealth Rock.

    I really think you should try Skarmory over Jirachi for a spin. I know it sucks to lose your Mewtwo check and a counter to Latias/Latios. Skarmory has a few advantages: the main one is it gives you invaluable Spikes support, and makes Giratina's phazing move much more effective. The next one is Skarmory is immune to Ground and isn't harmed much by Stealth Rock either, and the weird thing is Skarmory fares much better against stall compared to Jirachi. Giratina-O can't defeat Skarmory outside of Thunder and HP Fire will only 2HKO you in the sun. Having the best Extremekiller check isn't bad either, and Skarmory phazes on his own, you get to abuse your hazards which is perfect for this team. If Latias lacks Thunder, Skarmory still walls it in rain, and Grass Arceus can still check Latios anyway, but if they have Calm Mind then that's too bad.

    If you do decide to try Skarmory out, I suggest using Scarf Kyurem-W and make Kyogre Specs. That way you keep your offense while still having a way to revenge kill CM Latias. Specs Kyogre is an even more powerful nuke than Kyurem-W, and it still rapes Ferrothorn.

    You can try Giratina-O over Giratina to give the team more power, and a way to actually KO Ho-Oh outside of using Kyogre. Kyurem-W can't switch in, Giratina-O can come in on Sacred Fire and Rest off the burn when needed. Watchout for Spikes! Oh, you must keep Jirachi alive to save your team from shrang's Beartic. Dragon Dance Rayquaza is a bigger issue then Swords Dance because after just one boost, everyone will die to a single hit, unless you managed to lure it to Outrage Jirachi which is still a 2HKO, and you need luck. Grass Arceus dies after just a little prior damage, and if Rayquaza is Adamant then you die :( Skarmory can help tank Outrages better and it beats Bisharp because it dies to Spikes. Depending on whether you use Taunt or Toxic, Skarmory can still check Ghost Arceus regardless of what set it is. Flamethrower is piss weak in rain and Skarmory has no problem walling that, Focus Blast is inaccurate and Skarmory can still phaze it out easily. I will recommend Taunt because Tentacruel is using Toxic already. In rain, Skarmory walls Ho-Oh so it actually helps you more than Jirachi vs Ho-Oh.

    *OMG, that's a long post I typed, too long don't read :P Skarmory > Jirachi, try out Scarf Kyurem-W and make Kyogre Specs. If you miss out Jirachi's ability to wall Latios and passing Wishes too much then keep the team as it is. Giratina-O is a good choice over Giratina when you use Skarmory :P Trying it could be fun! You will like Outrage's power boost compared to Giratina's passiveness.

    Great team bro good luck
  12. gookie

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    use 3 attacks grass arceus and stealth rock on jirachi over protect

    use the gira-o set trickroom mentioned to threaten groudon more

    reminds me of a team with subseed shaymin over kyu-w and a resettalk ogre for cm arceus

    also your team can't go toe to toe with deo-a spikes sash lead into offensive groudon with gira-o or even other spikes teams with resttalk tina-o. seems a bit of a mish mash team trying to fuse to things that maybe weren't meant to work
  13. Fireburn

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    Responding to both trickroom's and Poppy's rates:

    Skarmory over Jirachi - Going to have to say no to this. Losing Jirachi means I get 6-0ed by Thunder Latias and Latios, and it makes Kyurem-W way too nasty. Jirachi's bulk and Wish is just way too important.

    Stealth Rock > Protect on Jirachi - I tried this in the past and found it disagreeable. Not having Protect made Jirachi really easy to wear down, which I can't allow to happen against something like Latios. I would probably be okay with this if I had another decent Dragon check, but as it stands its not really something I can afford to do. I find that Jirachi often cannot last long enough to do what it needs to do without Protect, and making sure it has reliable recovery has saved me in a lot of matches.

    I'd love to run 3 attacks or WoW on Grass Arceus, but I can't afford to give SR to anyone else.

    Giratina-O > Giratina - Will definitely give this a try, I'll probably miss Will-O-Wisp but I can see how this will be handy. I'm kind of worried about losing the defenses though as Giratina is my only real Extremekiller counter.

    Sash Deo-A leads are annoying, if they're Rash then leading with Kyogre limits them to one layer of Spikes, and against these types of teams I can usually spin against with Tentacruel as they usually run Ghost Arceus/Giratina-O sans Rest. Tentacruel also isn't quite as easy to OHKO as Forretress or something either.

    Thanks guys!

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