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Comeback into Pokemon [RMT]

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by KapKap, Mar 25, 2009.

  1. KapKap

    KapKap

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2008
    Messages:
    87
    Team at a Glance:


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Intro
    This is my first attempt at a team in about 12 months I think. I was once a pretty succesful battler on Marriland, winning and placing high in some big tournaments there. After one of my best real life friends (also very succesful battler) got involved in the Main Event, I couldn't resist picking Pokemon back up. I have been thinking of the new possibilities with platinum moves and the uber/ou shifts now and then for about a week, and this is the result.

    It's a team built mainly around an Infernape or Gyarados sweep. The other Pokemon aid in clearing the way of counters and stabilising the team. I've left the concept of walls and sweepers behind, I only chose the Pokemon that help achieve the team's goal. This team is one of the most offensive ones I've built. I won't be able to counter every threat in the metagame perfectly, but I think the firepower of my own team compensates for that.

    The Team
    [​IMG]
    SWAMPERT @ Leftovers
    240 HP / 236 DF / 32 SA
    Relaxed : Torrent
    -Earthquake
    -Ice Beam
    -Protect
    -Stealth Rock

    One of the best leads I've found. Has the opportunity to lay Stealth Rock against a lot of leads immediately. Swampert also counters a lot of threads, mainly Tyranitar, Metagross, Flygon, and physical versions of Salamence. The Special Attack EVs guarantee a OHKO on min HP Flygon.

    [​IMG]
    INFERNAPE @ Life Orb
    56 AT / 252 SA / 200 SP
    Naive : Blaze
    -Close Combat
    -Flamethrower
    -Grass Knot
    -Hidden Power [Ice]

    Basically the centerpiece of the whole team. When the other Pokemon take out the Infernape counters the opposing team has, little will stand in this guy's way. I've chosen Hidden Power [Ice] over Nasty Plot, because I already have a Pokemon that can set up, and with an Ice attack I can wreck Salamence. Everything else important I need to take out with Infernape already gets OHKO'd.

    [​IMG]
    GYARADOS @ Leftovers
    64 HP / 252 AT / 192 SP
    Adamant : Intimidate
    -Dragon Dance
    -Waterfall
    -Earthquake
    -Ice Fang

    The second way to win me the match is with Gyarados. After one Dragon Dance he's faster than the Starmie speed group. If the correct Pokemon are eliminated, one Dragon Dance can mean victory. I opted for Ice Fang in the last slot. Since I have a surefire Gyarados counter now, Stone Edge wasn't really needed for anything except Zapdos, so Ice Fang (Salamence, Flygon, Latias) got the spot.

    [​IMG]
    CELEBI @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 180 DF / 40 SD / 40 SP
    Bold : Natural
    -Grass Knot
    -Recover
    -Thunder Wave
    -Reflect

    Latias was replaced by this Pokemon. Celebi still manhandles all the Bulky Waters, and counters Gyarados perfectly. This allowed for Protect on Swampert. Thunder Wave nails most switchins (Heatran, Scizor, Tyranitar) and cripples Zapdos. Reflect gives me protection against Pursuit users, and gives Gyarados a better chance of setting up. I felt I didn't need any Hidden Power or Leech Seed here. The SD EVs let me take Vaporeon / Suicune Ice Beam a bit better.


    [​IMG]
    SCIZOR @ Choice Band
    248 HP / 252 AT / 8 SP
    Adamant : Technician
    -U – Turn
    -Bullet Punch
    -Superpower
    -Pursuit

    Great Pokemon. Traps Starmie and counters Cresselia, prominent Gyarados/Infernape counters. Takes care of Celebi (Gyarados) and Latias (Infernape) as well. Can make openings for Infernape mainly by using U-Turn on a predicted switch. Bullet Punch ruthlessly takes out weakened Pokemon, can even kill Salamence after it switches in for the second time with Stealth Rock. Important Dragon resist.

    [​IMG]
    HEATRAN @ Leftovers
    248 HP / 56 SA / 204 SD
    Modest : Flash Fire
    -Lava Plume
    -Earth Power
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk

    The status taker and essential special tank of the team. Inflicts burn with Lava Plume on for example Gyarados or Swampert switch ins. Takes down Celebi and Zapdos with ease. Another Dragon resist.

    Threat List
    Azelf: Heatran takes this thing on, absorbing almost everything it throws at him.
    Breloom: I must make sure Heatran takes sleep, then Celebi resists its moves and wittles it away with Grass Knot.
    Celebi: Heatran counters this 100%, not caring about status and hitting back with Lava Plume. Scizor can come in and threaten OHKO, but I'm a bit worried about ThunderWave and HP Fire.
    Dugtrio: It can kill Heatran and Infernape, and that would suck big time. Gives Gyarados a chance to set up though, it can't harm the rest of my team.
    Electivire: Swampert takes on variants without HP Grass. Celebi can handle it.
    Empoleon: I must rely on Swampert to get it down with Earthquake, but he isn't well protected against special attacks. Celebi can Thunder Wave it and hit it with Grass Knot. Gyarados sets up on it, Infernape can revenge, and it can only come in on Heatran.
    Flygon: Swampert counters physical sets, but will have trouble coming in on CB Outrage. Scizor can finish it off when it's locked in Outrage. I need to predict right when it's choice, otherwise Swampert. Risks taking burn if it switches into Heatran.
    Gengar: Scizor can Pursuit. Heatran can take sleep, take a few hits (Shadow Ball + Focus Blast) and kill it.
    Gliscor: Gyarados sets up on him, Swampert and Celebi beat it easily.
    Gyarados: Celebi counters this with ease.
    Heatran: Swampert can switch in and scare it away a few times, my own Heatran can switch in on predicted choice, Gyarados can switch in at least once.
    Heracross: Choice Band gives me problems. Gyarados can switch in and scare it away, but after that I need to out predict it with Celebi/Heatran.
    Infernape: I need to rely on Gyarados here. Otherwise Scizor to finish it off with 40% Bullet Punch.
    Jirachi: Heatran counters this nice and easy. Swampert can do a bit of damage with Earthquake and take hits. Scizor can U-Turn to break the substitute or something if need be. Celebi can Thunder Wave if it isn't using Substitute.
    Kingdra: Not much I can do to a Kingdra in rain. I need to predict the Draco Meteor with a Heatran switch, and then Scizor Celebi or Gyarados can take it on.
    Latias: Scizor switches in on anything except HP Fire, and threatens OHKO. Celebi Thunder Waves.
    Lucario: Gyarados can shake it off most of the time. Celebi comes in and Thunder Waves. Scizor takes off 40% after one Defense drop with Bullet Punch.
    Machamp: Celebi resists all of its moves except Payback and Ice Punch, Gyarados can Intimidate it, but will get confused probably.
    Magnezone: Traps Scizor if I'm locked in Bullet Punch or Pursuit. Can't do anything to Heatran. Swampert takes it on.
    Mamoswine: Gyarados does this fairly well. Celebi too. Luckily can't really come in on anything.
    Metagross: Swampert counters it pretty well. Gyarados, Scizor and Heatran can come in on choice Meteor Mashes. Celebi Reflect + Thunder Wave can beat him eventually.
    Ninjask: I'm not really afraid of it, even if I lack Roar. Can be dangerous, but if I don't let it Swords Dance, it can't be so bad. They mostly pass to Metagross / Tyranitar, which Swampert already counters.
    Porygon-Z: Heatran takes it nicely, as well as Scizor. Celebi Thunder Waves.
    Rhyperior: Must predict its choice attacks, tank versions aren't really a problem for Swampert. Gyarados can come in on anything except Stone Edge.
    Roserade: Heatran takes it. Also Latias if it lacks Shadow Ball.
    Rotom-A: Don't really know anything about this Pokemon. I guess Heatran takes it on if it doesn't have Hydro Pump.
    Salamence: Need to look out for Dragon Dance sets, but Swampert does a good job against physical Salamence. If it gets stuck in Outrage, it gets clobbering from Scizor. Special Salamence gets handled by Heatran. Celebi can handle physical sets as well.
    Scizor: Gyarados counters it well. Infernape can stop it from sweeping with Bullet Punch.
    Snorlax: Scizor takes his chance to come in and hit it hard. Gyarados fears Body Slam, but otherwise takes it. Infernape can always revenge.
    Starmie: Scizor traps it with Pursuit. Celebi takes it.
    Suicune: Celebi takes this on with ease.
    Togekiss: Not very much I can do to it. Scizor has to Bullet Punch it once it is damaged a bit. Infernape CC does 75% on max HP Togekiss.
    Tyranitar: Swampert counters it fairly well. Scizor too. Gyarados, Infernape can revenge kill. Risks getting burned if it switches in on Heatran.
    Weavile: Swampert tanks it, Scizor beats it hands down. Gyarados can come in once or twice. Celebi needs to look out though.
    Yanmega: Heatran beats this if it doesn't run HP Ground. Scizor can come in and Bullet Punch.
    Zapdos: Heatran is the best switchin, otherwise Latias or Swampert. Celebi can Thunder Wave.

    Well this is it. Please rate and do some good suggestions. I'm always willing to consider. Thanks in advance.
  2. YTP

    YTP

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    Hmm seeing as no one else has bothered to rate... I'll give my two cents.

    First of all I really don't recommend using Swampert to counter Gyarados. Offensive teams really run right over your team and making Swampert work like that isn't the best approach. I have always liked Protect on Swampert leads as a way to scout.

    Hidden Power Fire Latias is also a pain. I suggest you use Metagross over Scizor. While it is also weak to HP Fire he doesn't take as much. He also can trap but not as well. So its entirely up to you. If you use Scizor still try this spread: 120 HP / 248 Atk / 60 Spe / 82 SDef. It is a little more special defensive and outspeeds the standard CBTar since it isn't OHKOd by bullet punch and can safely 2HKO Scizor with Stone Edge.

    This is a really good team though. VERY nice presentation as well.
  3. SoT

    SoT Yes please!
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    Okay, this is gonna be a quick little rate. It's a great team just want to make a few changes.

    First off I would drop HP Electric on your Swampert for Protect. It will help out against Heatran/Metagross/Azelf leads, who tend to blow up after Stealth Rocking. It also helps lessen prediction needed against CB who this guy commonly switches into, Tyranitar/Flygon etc. Other than that he should be a great lead countering most of todays top leads.

    Next I would suggest dropping Latias as a whole. I would reccomend that you run a Zapdos in it's place. Zapdos can give you a few advantages that Latias couldn't, those being: 1) It can counter Lucario, you really have no surfire Lucario counter, nothing can really even revenge kill it, especially ones with Stone Edge. 2) It's not pursuit weak, that's actually a huge deal now adays with every team carrying just about 2 pursuiters. It also better allows you to deal with Scizor.

    The Zapdos that I'd recommend is

    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Timid - 252 Hp, 176 Sp. Attack, 80 Def or Sp. Attack
    Pressure
    - Thunderbolt
    - Heat Wave
    - HP Ice/ HP Grass
    - Roost

    This outspeeds neutral natured Salamence, +nature Lucario, and +nature Gyarados. This still allows you to counter the bulky waters as you stated above. HP Ice is just to hit Flygon, while Grass is there to nail incoming Swampert. It's really up to you, both of which are very good options.

    Lastly I woud suggest that you run a Scarf Tran. Between your Swampert/ Scizor you should be able to avoid most status. And your team really lacks a Scarfer. I would recommend the standard Fire Blast/ Earth Power/ HP Electric/ Explosion. Heatran will outspeed +1 DD Gyarados and then kill with HP electric providing you a nice little plan b, if Zapdos can't do it.

    Lastly I would reccomend that you run Stone Edge, I'd rather hit othery Gyarados than worry about hitting Latias/Celebi since your Scizor can just pursuit them to hell regardless.

    Well goodluck with the team, hope I helped out just a bit. I'm too coming of a hiatus, a bit shorter than your though :P. If you have any questions or concerns don't be afraid to post them. Good luck again!

    ~ SoT
  4. KapKap

    KapKap

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    Thanks for the input you guys, will consider!

    Metagross instead of Scizor is a good idea, but I think I have a better idea. Zapdos over Latias is also possible, but I got the suggestion to place Celebi over Latias. Counters Gyarados perfectly, takes on bulky waters just as well or better as Latias. Still resists ground, only problem is that celebi is fire weak. Infernape could sweep my team easily if it wasn't for Gyarados.

    What do I do now?

    Give Swampert Protect over Hidden Power Electric, or replace Swampert altogether.

    And what to do about Heatran. I could make it scarf, or give it another set, or keep it this way (my bet would be to keep him this way, I like him due to special defense prowess).

    Give more suggestions please, thanks to the people that already posted.
  5. ToF

    ToF
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    The real glaring thing about this team is the fact that it can't handle Salamence very well. DDMence straight up rips this team, and Mixmence can be a pain as well since you have nothing that can take 2 Draco Meteors in succession (Scizor will take a lot of damage). We can fix this with some minor tweaks, however.

    As SoT suggested, I'd add Protect on Swampert so that you have a chance at beating those suicide leads / Metagross / Heatran. After all, I doubt you want a severely crippled Swampert considering what you expect it to counter and all.

    The Salamence issue can be patched up by simply altering the EV spread of Scizor. The ubers spread for Scizor is actually really nice for OU considering the amount of heavy-hitting special attackers. 176 HP / 100 Atk / 176 SpD / 56 Spe should suffice with a Choice Band and your current moveset.

    You also have a pretty glaring Gyarados weakness if you do decide to add Protect to Swampert, so consider something like Celebi over Latias. It handles your bulky water problem just as well, with access to Calm Mind and Grass Knot. If you really wanted to keep similar coverage, you could also consider HP Ice as a secondary attack, though for now I'd just run something like Calm Mind / Grass Knot / HP Fire / Recover, HP Fire for those Scizors and Forretress and Skarmory that think they can switch in for free.

    The final switch I would make is making Heatran scarfed. This provides insurance against stuff like Lucario, Scizor, and even Infernape (with Scizor and Celebi drawing Fire attacks, Heatran shouldn't have a problem switching in). Scarftran also will provide the team with some much needed speed, possibly revenge killing stuff like Jolteon who you dislike as well as of now.

    Hope some of this helped, good luck.
  6. SoT

    SoT Yes please!
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    Hm, well Scarf your Heatran definitely. Celebi would work fine and complements Heatran very nicely. Infernape won't be too much trouble with Gyarados/Scarf Tran. You have 2 very nice checks thanks to them. And with that spread ToF does that still do enough to hit Mence back with the reduced Attack? Also it really doesn't help with the Mix Mence issue though. Nothing on this team can reliable switch into Mix Mence. How about dropping Swampert for a suicune, and running a Heatran SR lead? I think that could work out relatively well. If this doesn't make sense I'm sorry, I'm just trying to come up with some decent ideas! ;)
  7. ToF

    ToF
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    Well Mixmence would have to be dealt with via smart switching, possibly bringing Swampert in on a Fire Blast or Earthquake. I believe max attack Scizor hits Salamence with Bullet Punch for like 65%, so with that EV spread, it will probably do around 55%-60%. With Life Orb, it makes his life a little easier to weaken it and eventually revenge-kill. Remember, we suggested Scarftran as well, so he has another switch-in to Mixmence's Fire Blast with the 2 Fire weaknesses =).
  8. YTP

    YTP

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    I feel like I just got booed off the stage ._.

    I don't see THAT much of a MixMence weakness. If it uses Outrage, Scizor or Ape can come in (In the case of Ape...after it has killed something) and KO it. Plus Scarfing Heatran also solves it.

    A bigger weakness that I see is Babiri DDTar. Sure Swampert counters him but outside of that your team is destroyed. I don't know how to fix this though. The best thing I can suggest is managing your swampert really well. Don't try to do too much with Pert.
  9. KapKap

    KapKap

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    Thanks for the comments so far guys.

    @ Twist Of Fate: you pretty much confirmed what I said one post before. I'll take the Latias Celebi switch as a 'yes'. But now is the question, what set should Celebi be running? 12 months ago 245 speed with Bold and max Defenses with ThunderWave was the way to go. I have no idea what to do now. Maybe something like (I'm checking Smogon sets as I type):

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Bold : Natural Cure
    252 HP / 216 DF / 40 SP
    - Grass Knot
    - Recover
    - Reflect / ThunderWave
    - Leech Seed / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire

    Ok guys help me out here: Grass Knot and Recover are staple. Then, I'd really like ThunderWave in case I'm gonna give Heatran a scarf (no more Lava Plume), but Reflect also seemed very very good combined with a DD Gyarados. Leech Seed can devastate walls like Bronzong and help me stall out certain stuff. A Hidden Power is kinda needed as well, Ice would help my Salamence weakness (although ThunderWave does the job probably) and help against Flygon, Hidden Power Fire slaughters Scizor. ^ Comments on this please.

    2nd issue: scarfing Heatran. It seems a good option, I've used scarfed heatran a lot in the past, but he can't really switch in on Celebi and other walls because of ThunderWave. That's what bothers me the most. I also don't see why I need a scarf when I got bullet punch on Scizor. Only reason I can think of is Infernape, otherwise I'd really prefer taking special hits way better and switching in on Celebi / Zapdos.

    Regarding Swampert, I think I'm going to go Protect. I also thought of Toxic. An ideal moves that screws over a lot of Bulky Waters. Then again, this isn't really a stall team, so Toxic may seem more useful than it really is. And Protect certainly got its merits, so...

    Keep the comments coming, I really like the input you guys give me (10x better than on Marriland haha :P)
  10. Clefairy{m}

    Clefairy{m}

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    Please don't suggest that your Latias is able to stop Scizor's and Tyranitar's assaults, by using "Reflect". It insults me to here you say that. Even with Invested Evs in HP + Def, it's fate is already sealed, with Dragon Pulse as her only attack.


    Celebi @ Light Clay/Leftovers
    Impish: Natural Cure
    - Seed Bomb/Zen Headbutt
    - Recover
    - Reflect
    - U-turn

    ^ I was thinking of using this Celebi set before I read your team rate. Not quite sure of the evs yet. Maybe 252 HP/ 40 Atk/ 96 Def/ 36 Spe/ 84 SpDef

    96 points gives you a bonus point. 36 makes you faster than Tar and 84 special defense makes it easier to switch into water pokes w/Ice beam. "Especially as celebi seems like it will be your main switch in for them"

    I chose Impish over Bold nature so U-turn becomes more effective and being physical helps you better against pokes like Blissey, Tar.
  11. KapKap

    KapKap

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    First off, the reason I said Reflect on Latias helps against TTar is because the Pursuit doesn't hurt so much when I switch.

    That outta the way, I think your Celebi set is pretty horrible for this team. U-Turn doesn't really have any use combined with Reflect, especially when Celebi is faster, she can't escape pursuit with U-Turn, so it has basically no use on this set. Secondly I'm trying to counter Gyarados and Bulky Waters here. Seed Bomb isn't gonna do that (Intimidate, 40 lower BP on Gyarados, higher physical prowess on bulky waters), let alone Zen Headbutt. Sorry to say, this set is garbage.

    Please keep em coming! (read my last post)
  12. ToF

    ToF
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    On Celebi, I'd suggest running the EV's you have with Grass Knot / Recover / Thunder Wave / HP Fire. I think this is the best set in the metagame as of now, and will basically help out this team as much as possible. Leech Seed is kind of overrated in this fast-paced offensive metagame where you end up switching a lot, and so does your opponent. Thunderwave will have to suffice for Salamence and friends, since HP Fire is more relatable to the current top-tier OU's. Note that with your current spread, HP Fire does not KO Scizor, but it does hit it for like 65-70%, so be weary when using it on Scizor, or you will be faced with a KOing U-turn in return.
  13. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    I'd say Ice Fang is pretty worthless on Gyara. The damage it does over Stone Edge to Latias is minimal, and Latias is not Gyara's biggest issue anyway (nothing near the threat of other Gyara).

    This is going to sound crazy, but one fairly viable option (and totally unexpected) is Outrage. Obviously it immediately takes out all the dragons, with 100% accuracy (I personally hate relying on Stone Edge when I've gone through the effort of DD'ing), and still hits other Gyara pretty damn hard (especially if they've taken SR damage already). Also, Outrage hits as hard as Waterfall on neutral targets. Since no one expects outrage, no one switches in a steel type until they've already taken the initial hit, meaning they'll only get 1 turn of set up at best (since outrage could well run out right after they switch in their steel type), which means Gyara might even get the chance to earthquake the shit out of their steel type.

    Well, I've never run DD Outrage Gyara. I've run Outrage on the Taunt + 3 attacks lead gyara with fair success.
  14. KapKap

    KapKap

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    I was editing all the time when you made your post, but look at the top for the changes. I gave Celebi Reflect over HP Fire, and some more SD with it.

    I opted for Ice Fang on Gyarados, reasons stated above.

    Still need advice on what to do with Heatran!

    Keep 'em coming!
  15. RainDance

    RainDance

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    Ugh, basic team I don't see many problems but heres one i don't see the use of having ice fang on gyrados stone edge is a lot better and provides more coverage for the team, dealing with move types.
    Also with the high crit ratio on stone edge it would help better than 65 power on ice fang and the miss rate.
    Also hp (fire) or (ice) would be alot more useful on celebi than reflect since your not setting up dual screens whic is mor effective than a single screen i would reccomend hp (fire) since you have Hp (ice) on infernape.
    Alright thats all.
  16. Aquamentus

    Aquamentus

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    The way it is now, this is pretty solid.
    Let's see... Salamence may beat you up a bit, like with any other team, but Scizor can beat it in a pinch, Heatran can take a Specs Meteor (sort of), Celebi can paralyze it, Gyarados can Intimidate it and Ice Fang, etc.

    I've been having fun with a Waterfall-Return-Dragon Dance-Taunt Gyarados lately... shuts down attempts to T-Wave, Roar, Perish Song, and so on, and sometimes nets you a second DD. Really though, I'm mentioning that simply for the lack of things to complain about with your team and because Gyarados's set is still kinda "controversial". Fairly standard, but good.
  17. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    beh, Ice Fang is crap. 65 base power is pathetic, and the fact that it too isn't all that reliable on the accuracy makes it even more pathetic. Also, even if Celebi stops 95% of gyaras, I'd hate having wasted my DD having to retreat when another Gyara switches in (and end up taking SR damage). >.> Outrage > Ice Fang almost completely
  18. Bloodcross69

    Bloodcross69

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    Pretty generic team. I honestly see a slight LO Starmie weak but you can prolly get past that with a free switch-in for Scizor, switching in might be a pain.

    Welcome back Kappie ^^
  19. KapKap

    KapKap

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    Haha is this Zeus? :P

    Btw, I don't think this is a generic team, I really thought of stuff for a while, it's just with standard pokes (not all the standard sets though), but they'll cover each other very good I think. It's just that I wanna win :P
  20. KapKap

    KapKap

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    Bump!

    Do you guys have some more advice in store? I thought of replacing Swampert with Metagross with SR, and maybe making some slight changes after that. Anyone can give me some tips on that?

    Also some more advice on the Celebi set please!
  21. Surveying Motions

    Surveying Motions

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    Sorry I don't have a rate but I just had to answer this:

    After one DD Gyara outspeeds and kills Starmie.
    Scizor traps and kills Starmie.
    Celebi will not die to Ice Beam and has S/E GK.
    Swampert is not weak to any usual Starmie attacks, as Recover is standard over GK.

    Overall, I don't think there is a LO Starmie weakness at all.
  22. KapKap

    KapKap

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    Haha thanks for clearing that up, I feel the team is almost perfected, it's not very original, but it certainly works. I especially love how Celebi can Reflect on a Scizor switchin, and then Gyarados has chances to set up.

    Nevermind that Metagross for Swampert swap, that was plain dumb. I need that Heatran check / fire resist, and there's no reason to let Metagross do what Swampert can do (except Explosion).

    Last thing... Scarf Heatran or not?

    It would help immensely against Scarf Jirachi, I kinda render it useless with scarf Heatran (it cant trick). I don't really have a solid Celebi switchin or status taker if I decide to go for Scarf, that's what bothers me the most. Any suggestions on that?
  23. Shaft

    Shaft

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    I would keep Tran as it is, you really want a status absorber annex special wall and I don't think a scarftran adds more to the team then the restalk version. On top of that you might want to get Hp Fire instead of Reflect on Celebi, not only for being able to suprise Scizor but mostly to get things like Forretress, who would otherwise set up spikes on you all day long. Besides those two nitpicks nice team team mate ^^ keep it up!

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