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Community Create-A-Team: Forgotten Wonders (LC)

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by Heysup, Oct 2, 2009.

?

Which Pokemon should we base the CCAT around?

  1. Life Orb Eevee

    117 vote(s)
    56.5%
  2. Wynaut

    90 vote(s)
    43.5%
Thread Status:
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  1. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Stop voting in the poll, it's over. Read the whole OP to find out where we are in the CC-A-T Process. Thanks!
    __________________________________________________________________________________

    [​IMG]
    Welcome to the Little Cup edition of Community Create-A-Team! This is where us Little Cup players work together to create a competitive team. The overall goal of this project is to get players involved in creating a Little Cup team, rather than just posting RMTs for people to use. Also, let's have fun while doing it.

    Origin of thread derived from here, and the first attempt at C-A-T can be found here. I am using a slightly different process since Little Cup is very different from OU, but I kept it as similar as possible.

    Please stay on topic. If we are discussing the the Pokemon we are basing the team around, please refrain from changing the topic.

    This is going to be a competitive team.

    Try to avoid "theorymon" as much as possible (there will be some, obviously, as the LC ladder isn't as active as the OU ladder).

    Process:


    Step 1 (Poll is going up around Oct 4th): We are going to start by picking which forgotten Pokemon (and set) we are going to be basing the team around. This does NOT mean the Pokemon has to be the late game sweeper, it means the team will be built around that Pokemon, whatever role it plays. This thread is for nominating Pokemon to be added to a poll (Pokemon that you think fit the description of a "forgotten" Pokemon). After a couple of days (probably around one-two days, until enough pokemon are in the poll (around 10)), I will select which Pokemon are going to be in the poll that will be posted after we decide on a list of Pokemon. This means you have to convince me, and others, that your Pokemon is worth being put in the vote.

    Note: A "Forgotten Wonder" is something is less used then the average OU Pokemon / set, but is still powerful enough to be used in the standard metagame. So no Caterpies, Magikarp, Beldum, Etc. Thanks.

    Note 2: You can suggest forgotten "sets", for example SubCroagunk is an option even though Priority Gunk is quite popular.

    Step 2: We select what style of team we want to make. This will likely include something along the lines of Offense, Bulky Offense (closest form of stall..), Weather, Trick Room, and possibly more.

    Step 3: We select Pokemon that work well around our Pokemon and fit the team style and test it.

    Step 4: We finalize the team and write up a 5-star RMT!
    ________________________________________________________________

    Step 1 Complete! Wynaut is the Forgotten Hero we will be basing our competitive team around!


    [​IMG]
    Wobbuffet Jr. (suggested by MGX):

    Wynaut @ Oran Berry
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 76 HP / 212 Def / 212 SDef (a different spread with a point in Spe over HP is also viable)
    Impish Nature
    -Counter
    -Mirror Coat
    -Encore
    -Safeguard / Destiny Bond

    Wynaut is the ultimate teammate for set up Pokemon and for counting Scarfed Pokemon. With it's very respectable HP and defenses, Wynaut can take a hit and use Encore, allowing you to Counter physical attacks, Mirror Coat special attacks, Safeguard vs status attacks, and / or switch out to a Pokemon who is barely touched by the attack being used by your opponent. This gives set up Pokemon a free turn to set up whatever they want, meaning it could get very dangerous really fast. Wynaut has always been forgotten because of the fact that it doesn't have great defensive typing (e.g., is weak to U-turn), is slow, and will likely get KOed before it does something. However, when Wynaut is placed on the right team, with the right pokemon, it will likely help another one of your Pokemon end the game, or come close to it on a regular basis.
    ________________________________________________________________
    STEP 2 COMPLETE!
    Team Style: Standard Offense
    _______________________________________________
    STEP 3:

    Topic: Team Parings (Sweepers (2-3) alongside Wynaut, followed by lead and Revenge killers).
  2. reyscarface

    reyscarface
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    Abra is pretty much what you are describing here. Every time I mention him, its like "lolwtf abra sucks man", when it got really big potential, specially when played with lures.

    Set Name: SubAbra
    Abra @ Life Orb
    Ability: Synchronize
    EVs: 58 HP/200 Speed/252 SpA
    Timid (+speed, -spa)
    - Substitute
    - Psychic

    - HP Fighting
    - Shadow Ball/Energy Ball


    Very simple. EVs maximize sweeping capability with the last point used in HP because it fits. Life Orb Abra is very strong, now pair it with substitute to block last turn 1 on 1 Sucker Punches, and you got a fearsome sweeper that can win you a lot of games. When I use this, I like to use a lead gastly, because it attracts both bronzong and munchlax, things that give this set problems.

    Psychic can OHKO most Gligars, while the last moves are for coverage. HP Fighting lets you hit things that resist Psychic, like Houndour. Shadow Ball hits ghosts hard, while Energy Ball puts the dent on water types.

    One of the best sets I have used on Abra, yet very underrated :(
  3. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Not forgotten by everyone, but Drifloon is very cool and this set seems to be rare. It does not get long sweeps as often as some 'floon sets, but almost always takes down one or two foes.

    Drifloon @ Oran Berry
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 4 Def / 196 SpA / 4 SpD / 196 Spe (gogo LC ev spreads!)
    Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
    -
    Hypnosis
    - Explosion
    - Substitute
    - Shadow Ball

    Against a surprising number of Pokemon you can easily get a few tries at Hypnosis thanks to Drifloon's great 90 base HP, so even if you miss the first its not too bad. From there set up a sub, you should now be able to hit most foes with 2-3 Shadow Ball's before going down thanks to sub, unburden making you faster than everything, and Oran bringing you back to reasonable health. Or if they bring in something you want gone quickly simply blow up in their face.
    Though, it would be so much better without the Oran Glitch that prevents Oran activating from Substitute damage..

    It is walled badly by Munchlax or any normal unless you blow up, but you have enough time to sleep them and get a free switch, or Explode. Either way its benificial.

    Nature has a few options, in fact a majority of competitively used natures are viable, but boosting Speed tends to help, and attack normally costs you the least.

    Drifloon has a good set of immunities and makes a great lure for Munchlax, as well as often incapasitating 2-3 Pokemon per match (Sleep, repeted Shadow Balls, Explosion).
  4. Virtuoso

    Virtuoso

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    I'm not too well versed in LC, but I would like to see a team around that Eevee.
  5. KnightoftheWind

    KnightoftheWind
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    How about some Horsea action?

    Horsea (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 196 Def/196 SAtk/76 SDef
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Signal Beam / HP Electric / HP Grass
    - Ice Beam
    - Rain Dance

    Horsea takes the MVP award on my rain team, this thing is powerful. It doesn't need a single Speed EV, as in the rain, it'll hit 22 Speed, enough to outspeed Scarfers designed to hit 21 Speed. What's more, it naturally hits 19 HP, so there isn't any EV adjustments necessary if you want to use Hidden Power. There isn't much in LC that can stand up to its Surfs. The other moves are for coverage.

    Horsea doesn't really need to be a special rain sweeper. We can also make it mixed, or a Dragon Dancer.
  6. lati0s

    lati0s

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    I would like to sugest quick feet teddiursa, I think he's a good choice becuase although not too common he packs a lot of power and good speed and can flourish with proper support.

    teddiursa @ toxic orb
    36hp/196atk/36def/36spdef/196speed
    Jolly nature
    -swords dance
    -facade
    -crunch
    -earthquake/close combat/cross chop
  7. Stagnant

    Stagnant

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    I've had a little play testing experience with Eevee and I agree that it makes for a fantastic late-game sweeper. So this is where my vote is going. Eevee is very under appreciated.
  8. Namso

    Namso
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    I'd like to nominate RP SubLiechi Aron.

    Aron (M) @ Liechi Berry
    Ability: Rock Head
    EVs: 76 HP/236 Atk/196 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Head Smash
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Polish
    - Substitute

    Some LC Pokemon are forgetting the viability of using SubBerry items, and I'd like to spice things up by using a RP SubLiechi set. With its recent addition of Head Smash into its movepool, I believe Aron can become a very threatening sweeper with it, not to mention Rock Polish to boost its rather pathetic Speed to.

    It may be hard to achieve an Aron sweep, but that just adds more to the challenge, which really makes it more fun.
  9. dachickens

    dachickens

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    Something that I tried and found to be rather rare was Curse Bidoof Unfortunately I lost the EV spread, I'll update with it when I find it. IIRC it was max Attack, max HP, and the rest in something else, but if someone else has a better EV spread I'd be happy to see it.

    Bidoof @ Oran Berry/Chople Berry?
    Ability: Simple
    EVs: (tba)
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Curse
    - Quick Attack
    - Pluck
    - Aqua Tail

    This Pokemon relies on Curse to quickly boost Bidoof's average Attack to nosebleed heights while simultaneously increasing its physical bulk. Quick Attack then combos well with Curse because it negates the speed drops and hits hard with +2 STAB priority. The other two attacks provide amazing coverage, and Pluck even has the added effect of stealing an opponent's Oran Berry and prolonging Bidoof's sweep.

    It worked well for me but ultimately failed because I couldn't get a good team around it, so I hope this CCAT will try to give this Bidoof the support it deserves ^_^
  10. EvilBob

    EvilBob

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    For that Bidoof I'd consider putting 204HP/196 Sp. Def, and then a point in Atk or Def, With a neutral Nature this gives you 13 Sp. Def, which is enough to not be OHKO'd by LO Missy's HP Fighting at full health. 204HP/196SpDef/36 HP also gives you a better shot at taking an unboosted dynamic punch after a curse.
  11. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I've actually used SubAbra (and Gastly, I was trying a bunch of 'Sub(Insert Sucker Punch weak Pokemon' sets), and it's decent.

    It certainly fits the bill as a forgotten threat, but my main issue is that there is no reason that it would be viable in this metagame now since it's popularity dropped. Missy is all that more popular now, so is Duskull and priority in general which OHKOes Abra, stopping it from even getting a Sub up.

    However I haven't made up my mind yet, give me a slightly more detailed strategy outlining situations where this Abra works out and I'll gladly reconsider.

    Drifloon is currently in Missy's Shadow (albeit for a good reason), and it definitely is viable. This set is unique to only Drifloon, and I really like how it's not a 'sweeper', but a 'Takes out 2-3 Pokemon Midgame' Pokemon. Imo Drifloon is perfect addition to the list.


    I've actually lost (I know, I know) to your Rain Dance team, but it really wasn't because of Horsea. In the rain, I really find it to be good, but not 'really good'. Horsea is too hard to base a team around without making a Rain Dance team, which is not exactly a good idea for a C-A-T project (for the first round anyway).

    So Forgotten Wonder...not really a wonder, but it's main turn off is the fact that you're forced into Rain Dance.

    I've used this to a lot of Success as well, but it's really tough to use in the hyper offensive metagame. However, what made me decide that Teddiursa deserves a spot is the fact that it can OHKO Missy with crunch:

    17 Atk vs 12 Def & 22 HP (80 Base Power): 18 - 22 (81.82% - 100.00%) (around 60% chance to OHKO min/min (Timid or Naive) Missy with SR in play).

    That alone gives it a chance for success. I'll add it to the list for now.



    Good set, great explanation, but not 'forgotten' at all. Aron is seeing more use then it should already with its new publicity with Head Smash.

    Key turn off is right there (bolded). If it wasn't viable then, it likely won't be viable now. I personally have used this on a BP team, but it's just too easy to wall and set up on.

    Save your votes for the poll thread! I will say that Eevee is definitely a good choice, I agree.
  12. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    For next time, I think choosing a theme or general team plan should happen before we pick any Pokemon.

    And seconding the "Eevee is actually not that great" thought. Double STAB QA sounds good, but its not stunning. Its decent for picking of weak foes who don't resist normal, and a free switch for all the highly threatening ghosts. Eevee is.. kinda like the Electivire of LC. Looks "omg awesome" to start with, but in reality its only just about functional, with the odd sweep here and there. Just way to easy to revenge kill and switch into. Kinda feeling the same way about Teddiursa, but to a lesser extent as Teddy can be quite scary once your opponents priority is low.
  13. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Eevee has much better defenses then Dratini and a crazy powerful Double Edge / Return while dratini is forced to outrage. While Dratini is amazing, I don't think it directly outclasses Eevee. If more people agree than disagree with removing Eevee, then I'll gladly remove it.

    I'd say Glameow is outclassed by Meowth more than Eevee is outclassed by Dratini. They function differently.

    Anyway, I don't really see how you can base a team off of this generic lead. It doesn't do anything in particular for you, plus Meowth is definitely too similar to this.

    I disagree completely. Picking the Pokemon first allows us to not be 'forced' to pick any specific Pokemon. This especially applies to LC, since any team other than 'generic' offense / bulky Offense is forced to use Trick Room user X, Rain Dancer X, Sunny Day Abuser X, Walls X. That's why I'm really in favor of picking the Pokemon, then picking the type of team, rather then picking the type of teamed and being forced to use certain Pokemon. For a community anyway. Not to mention I'm trying to follow the OU C-A-T process-ish.

    Vader is likely going to try it your way for the next round though.

    Teddiursa isn't that easy to revenge kill either, but it's meant to sweep when scarfers and priority are gone. I see what you mean though.

    -----------------------

    Right now Eevee is getting as much a support for nominations as it is for an denomination, so I'll keep it on for now, but it could easily get removed if more people want to. I mean I'll obviously hold eric / mgx's opinion high, I just want better reasoning to remove it :)
  14. franky

    franky
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    I support Eevee as well, sounds interesting.
  15. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    I don't actually think Eevee should be removed from the poll (mostly thanks to the support of a shocking number of people), but I would strongly discourage people from voting for it. Its normal attacks are often extremely predictable, and its speed is low enough that every important Ghost get in and can set up or hit back hard. Eevee was one of my first analysis, I know well it looks cool, but its non STAB attacks are surprisingly weak. Bite is barely going to deter Missy from coming in, and not stop it from beating you. QA is admittedly nice for revenge killing certain threats, but not more than that.

    (all calcs assume max attack, boosing nature, adaptability, and LO boost)
    min/min Croagunk: 66.67% - 85.71%
    min/min Houndour: 66.67% - 85.71%
    min/min Mankey: 70% - 90%
    Even against 0/0 Abra it only has a 2.56% chance to OHKO. Abra has 25/15 defences. If Abra invests 76 Evs in Defence (it has the spare) Quick Attack will never 1KO. Not being to KO even the most frail of LC sweepers is really bad, and lets so many of them revenge kill you.

    It falls short of KOing even particularly frail foes like these, and all of them are able to deal massive damage in return. Mankey forces you to use QA as it is almost always Scarfed and can 1KO, if you don't QA Croagunk it will do massive damage (though not KO) your Eevee. Houndour even outspeeds and carries its own Priority..

    QA can pick of weakened foes, but it is simply not a sweeping tool and will not prevent full health foes from revenge killing you. Therefore it is easy to revenge kill.

    Its actually hard to find a Pokemon in the top 20 that don't revenge kill Eevee.. Croagunk comes close, but it can always deal ~70% and avoid the 1KO. Houndour can only do ~80& with Sucker Punch, but its faster can survive QA and can use Fire Blast or Overheat for an easy 1KO. Mantyke and Porygon have problems, I guess. Which leaves about 17/20 Pokemon in the top 20 as compident revenge killers (and with LO damage, doing 80% or 90% is generally enough).

    There are many other team plans, look at the immunity team, my sash abuse team or the team vader and I made with that focused on overwhelimg the opponent with strong special speed boosting Pokemon.

    Even if we do pick a theme we are not exactly forced to pick any Pokemon, sure most rain teams have Mantyke, but its not needed exactly. There is plenty of varity within themes.

    And the advantage is that we actually know the theme before picking Pokemon, we don't want to choose a scarfer ot Teddy and find that actually people want a TR themed team. Just helps general cohesion.

    As for sticking to the process, its relatively new and can be bent to suit our needs so long as we are careful.

    Also, can we suggest more than one? If no, the could someone do DS Magnemite please.
  16. franky

    franky
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    It would be a good build though: potential partners, support, etc. Once the ghost-types are gone, it could work out.
  17. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Completely understandable reasoning, though I do think you underestimate QA.

    These Calcs are actually completely flawed (except for Mankey, which I screwed up by forgetting to take the -1 defense off from doing a previous calc). Anyway, you forgot the fact that Houndour (basically all of the time) AND Croagunk both use -defense natures most of the time.
    Code:
    | Croagunk   | Nature       | Lonely           |    36.1 |
    | Croagunk   | Nature       | Mild             |    27.1 |
    | Houndour   | Nature       | Lonely           |    53.3 |
    | Houndour   | Nature       | Hasty            |    21.6 |
    
    
    So the proper calcs are:

    vs Houndour:

    16 Atk vs 8 Def & 19 HP (40 Base Power): 16 - 20 (84.21% - 105.26%)

    This OHKOes 67% of the time with Stealth Rock, nevermind the fact that it will probably have an attacks worth of Life Orb recoil already on it. And not to mention, most Houndour's don't even max Speed EVs:
    Code:
    | Houndour   | Speed EV     | Low (50-100)     |    51.5 |
    | Houndour   | Speed EV     | Very High (200+) |    28.6 |
    Not to mention only a select few use a + Speed nature to guarantee outspeeding Eevee.

    This allows Eevee to actually OHKO Houndour with Return (16 Atk vs 8 Def & 19 HP (102 Base Power): 38 - 46 (200.00% - 242.11%) while Houndour is forced to use Sucker Punch to do any damage.

    vs Croagunk:

    16 Atk vs 9 Def & 19 HP (40 Base Power): 14 - 18 (73.68% - 94.74%)

    This has a small chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock, but you need to consider the fact that Croagunk a) will almost always have used an LO attack throughout the battle, and b) it can't OHKO you, so it needs to use an LO attack anyway. QA OHKOes with just 1 LO recoil almost all of the time.

    As for Abra, almost zero of them invest in Defense:
    Code:
    | Abra       | Defense EV   | None             |    93.1 |
    Meaning that the proper calc for 76 HP Abra is:

    16 Atk vs 8 Def & 20 HP (40 Base Power): 16 - 20 (80.00% - 100.00%)

    Which is a 67% chance of OHKOing. The only time an abra should invest in defense is if it uses LO, which is basically adding the probably of LO recoil as well.


    As I have shown, that's really not the case. In the late game scenario especially, when most of these Pokemon will have taken some LO and residual damage. That's why it's such an effective sweeping tool.
    You are forgetting a huge amount of Pokemon, namely Munchlax, Diglett and everything slower than Eevee that doesn't resist Return or Double Edge.
    Very true, but I think it's way more fun and effective to pick a Pokemon to base a team around. Anyway, the main reason is that I wanted to use 'forgotten wonders' as a theme, and logically, picking the Pokemon first is the correct course of action for that.
    Plenty is really an iffy word....I'd say every rain teams I've seen except for one use Mantyke (though not 100% of mantykes are on Rain teams (agilityke)).
    Well we are basing the theme around the Pokemon. So of course we won't use a TR team with Teddy or a Scarfer. That's why I wanted to pick the Pokemon first, because the Pokemon picks the team, the team doesn't pick the Pokemon (like it does for many types of teams).
    I did bend it (made it more CAP-ish). I still feel this is the propper way.

    Of course! Post some reasoning for it (sounds quite interesting).
  18. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    You are right that I did not take the - Def natures into account, but even then its not a clean 1KO so these Pokemon can deal massive damage in return. Eevee needs to run a + speed nature to tie neutral max Houndour.

    And yes, the 76 def abra was simply an example to prove that against even the most frail of Pokemon Eevee has serious trouble getting a 1KO. And I'm not sure how you get 67% chance of a 1KO on any non - Def nature Abra... What calc are you using?

    Diglett will often run Focus Sash, is not 1KOed by QA and can happily hit you with EQ followed by Sucker Punch. Munchlax with max HP and 36 Def will never be 1KOed by Return (though Double Edge has a 66% chance to 1KO, but will do huge damage to you)

    With SR down and againt a weakened team without normal resists, ghosts, fast priority, scarfers at high health, or moderately bulky fast Pokemon, it could pull of some sort of a sweep. Without all of that, its going to find sweeping very hard.

    That seems fair enough, but imo it would be best at least next time to let people decide on if they want a team based around 'forgotten wonders'.

    Edit: Destiny Bond>Safeguard on Wynaut for taking down Munchlax or Bronzor when you can't survive a hit.
  19. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Hmm, I really like using Wynaut and I forgot all about it since HGSS (though I put it in my Berry Juice team for obvious reasons). I really like this suggestion because of the new set up mons that are in HGSS, and using Wynaut likely before Berry Juice is on shoddy would be a huge plus.

    However I don't just like Wynaut as an anti-scarf, I like using it as support for set-up Pokemon. I think that's its real niche.

    Adding it.
    Outclassed by other SubPunchers IMO, most notably Croagunk who's already up there. Croagunk gets STAB and much better resistances and immunities to set up a Substitute.
  20. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Posting to support Cacnea, but with the following set:

    Cacnea (M) @ Salac Berry
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 236 Atk/236 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Endure
    - Focus Punch
    - Destiny Bond
    - Sucker Punch

    This set is so, so good. You Endure on an attack that would KO you, then Destiny Bond. At worst, you get one kill. At best, you then Focus Punch. If the opponent stops the Focus Punch, they die. If not, they eat an 18 Attack Focus Punch. Sucker Punch hits opposing priority users, and can finish off opponents maimed by Focus Punch.
  21. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I really really dislike this set. It only works against people who have zero clue how the set works, and against experienced battlers it flat out won't work. This set is especially hindered by the fact that NP Missy, SubGastly, and Sub in general are everywhere. I'll probably add it as it seems to be getting some support, but I would really really really discourage anyone from voting for it. I also don't like how you say "guaranteed to get a KO every match", when it rarely does...ever. For example against the top 5 Pokemon:

    Missy: Obviously Missy completely wrecks cacnea, Substituting and setting up whatever the hell it wants while you can't even touch it.

    Gligar: Swords Dance: Sets up Swords Dance, and will OHKO you regardless of your moveset while you can't do shit to it. QA will outpace your Destiny Bond, and Sucker Punch will do shit-all.
    Rock Polish: It owns Cacnea, stalling destiny bond and Sucker Punch with roost while setting up Rock Polish.
    All-in-One: Has a tougher time, but it still comes down to predictions: you need to predict Roost and Focus Punch it, or predict EQ and Dbond or Sucker Punch. Not reliable at all.

    Houndour:
    Scarf is going to wreck you regardless, while mixed is going to also likely wreck you unless you get lucky with Sucker Punches over and over again while Dour keeps spamming them as well....

    Croagunk: Resists sucker punch and Focus Punch. Has its own priority. Cacnea has nothing on it.

    Machop: Machop wins most of the time due to confusion, as you need to bypass confusion AND win the speed tie to even Destiny Bond KO Machop.

    There is the top 5, but this is getting a little tedious and redundant so I'll stop here.

    So before I add it, can you guys explain how you base a team around a Pokemon that functions like this without just saying 'its guaranteed to KO one Pokemon per match, so its good'? Because not only is that false, it isn't a good aspect to base a team around.
  22. Rolf

    Rolf

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    914
    I would like to suggest Taillow.

    Taillow@Flame Orb/Toxic Orb
    Guts - EVs tba
    ~Protect
    ~Facade
    ~Brave Bird
    ~Quick Attack/U-Turn

    Taillow is an absolute monster. 19 speed and 15 attack doesn't sound like much, but once your orb activates (toxic orb with uturn, flame with qa) you hit 22 attack. This STILL might not sound like much. Now take into account that he has a great duel stab only resisted commonly by Aron and Bronzor.

    By expirience, Facade can OHKO some Gliscor, and most everything else by extension. Brave bird hits the odd ghost. Quick Attack does a number on anything faster than you, and cancels most sucker punches. Uturn gives great scouting opportunities.

    I'm on my itouch ATM, I'll add more later if needed.
  23. lati0s

    lati0s

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,492
    tailow was already listed
  24. Rolf

    Rolf

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    914
    Oh. Yeah I saw that :/ I support a Taillow then.
  25. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2008
    Messages:
    5,655
    I'm going to be getting the poll up with the current Pokemon ASAP, and leave the poll open for a couple (TBA) days. Then it starts getting really exciting!
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