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Community Create-A-Team: Forgotten Wonders (LC)

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by Heysup, Oct 2, 2009.

?

Which Pokemon should we base the CCAT around?

  1. Life Orb Eevee

    117 vote(s)
    56.5%
  2. Wynaut

    90 vote(s)
    43.5%
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  1. Articanus

    Articanus

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    Whoops. ><"

    Oh well, then it leaves room for Ancientpower or something. Hell, run Toxic Spikes I guess and when Croagunk comes in, kill it with Wynaut and bring in Omanyte later.
  2. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    I tried to argue Omanyte against HYU, but HYU is adamant that AJet is more important that Spikes

    I still prefer Omanyte, as it is a wicked lead and any viable Spiker in LC is an excellent choice IMO
  3. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    MGX you weren't arguing that set, you were arguing the "bad kabuto" set :P.

    Anyway, I actually really like that Omanyte set (been used against me quite a bit lol). I'm good either way, lets discuss the pros and cons of this ArticaNyte vs MGX/HeysuButo.

    Current Topic: Lead Omanyte (Articanus's Suggestion) vs Lead Kabuto (Heysup / MGX's suggestion)

  4. Articanus

    Articanus

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    Well as far as we have to compare them, let us list their similarities:

    They have the same typing, SR, and surf coming from a sp. attack stat of 15. They both use Physical Rock-type moves, but that's where the similarities end.

    Differences? Let's look at advantages:

    Omanyte has MUCH more bulk thanks to its higher defensive stats, HP investment, and Oran Berry. This nets it more free turns, enabling it to get multiple layers of Spikes after laying SR. Rock Blast hits multiple times, allowing it to break subs and sashes(in SB1).

    Kabuto is faster, has priority, almost guarantees SR thanks to the focus sash. It's also stronger, while at the same time being more consistent.

    So which one is right for the team?

    I'm more inclined towards Omanyte(obviously), so I'd pick that. What makes them completely different is consistency. Kabuto gets its job done much more consistently, but when worked right(as HYU and others will agree with), Omanyte can net you a bigger payoff. And then, it still gets SR. Spikes are almost a bonus if you get bonus turns. Omanyte is also anti-set-up, since they can't ever set up a sub(Croagunk can, but Kabuto isn't doing much better).
  5. Maris

    Maris

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    The problem is that the most common leads in the metagame are
    snover FS/scarf
    phanpy
    meowth
    obviously omanyte wont be getting SR up anytime soon vs snover. while kabuto doesnt do much better, it does get SR pr it could kill snover. Consistant results matter in a metagame filled with uncertainty. Besides what does omanyte do for the team other than SR?
    take it this way. you can have a A)100% chance of 100$ or B) a 25% chance of nothing a 25% chance of 100$ and a 50% chance of 300$ what would you pick? replace A with kabuto and B with omantyte. consistant good enough results are whats important not incosistant Great results.
  6. Articanus

    Articanus

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    it beats Phanpy and Meowth. Snover is a different issue.

    Against Snover, Kabuto doesn't do well either though. Snover can still OHKO with a sash or scarf on, eliminating kabuto. And if they don't carry a grass move, then both beat it.

    If we want to go by comparisons, if:

    Kabuto nabs $100 95% of the time.

    If $100 = SR or a kill, then:

    Omanyte nabs $100 30% of the time, $167 25% of the time, $233 20% and $300 10% of the time.
  7. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
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    Why can't we run HP Rock on Omanyte? STAB coming off a 15 SpA stat sounds pretty nice to me. Then we don't have to invest in Atk EVs on Omanyte.
  8. Articanus

    Articanus

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    Using HP Rock/ Ancientpower begs the question: what does it hit?

    Rock Blast has the utility use in SB1 of breaking sashes: otherwise, there'd be no reason to run it.

    If I have to get rid of Rock Blast, I'd probably replace it with Earth Power. Takes Croagunk off the list of "counters", as now it can be EVed to take a FO + Vaccuum Wave.
  9. Sledge

    Sledge

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    HP rock would be an option because it OHKO's 116hp/rash snover, but of course, so can Kabuto's rock slide, but i am in favor of kabuto mainly because of it's accses to priority in aqua jet. Omanyte does have spikes, but you gotta ask, "how often will i survive to lay them down, while doing something to the other poke to not be in a hole?"
  10. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    The thing with MGXHYUButo (bad name, now shortened to HMButo) is that it beats nearly ALL leads.

    Meowth: Surf, AJ, FO Resist blah blah

    Snover: If scarfed, both die as you hang on with your sash as they hit you while you OHKO with Rock SLide, and then hail kills you. If not scarfed, then RS is an OHKO unless extremely bulky. If SUbSeeder, just lay SR, break the Sub, get the fuck out.

    Phanpy: Surf 100% OHKO, even for 36 SDef versions. Then you still have your sash and can set up SR, unlless Phanpy uses Ice Shard turn one (which is p dumb)

    Houndour: hard. However Kabuto outspeeds LeadDour who only has 14 Speed, and KOs with Surf + AJet.

    ehhhhh what elseeee

    Machop: Dunno
    Riolu: KOd by Surf + AJ, not sure if outspeeds
    Dratini: Rock Slide x2

    etc other anti leads are p uncommon, and Im sure one can just go for the SR -> AJet on them.

    But against the main leads, its not guaranteed to get SR up, but most definately likely to come out on top. This way although you arent getting SR up, you are certainly stopping either their SR or if anti-lead a vital member, as Anti Leads are often used to get momentum going, which you have snatched them of.

    Hence I support HMButo as our lead.
  11. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Articanus pointed out that his lead was more "risk/reward" oriented, and while I'm all for that, I think the reliability of the Kabuto lead really fits in with "standard team that even new users can use".

    Does anyone have any better ideas?
  12. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    If we choose not to go down the SR lead route, then OranChop is a great anti lead.

    Otherwise for SR leads its pretty much between Kabuto, Onix, Bronzor and Anorith.

    Anorith looks good on paper with Rapid Spin, but the thing is is in practicality, its often underwhelming and is KOd by all the common leads before it can actually set up SR and then Spin others' away.
    Ive always hated LeadZor, mainly because fuck it is so boring and gives the opponent a chance to set up their Krabby or Dratini or what have you.
    Onix is eh, kabuto is much better at laying SR down and then KOing the other lead.
  13. Rolf

    Rolf

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    I think there are a couple good sweeper options. As a normal-type sweeper, I think there are two fun set-uppers. Normal-types are great to take the ghost-type attacks aimed at Wynaut.

    Porygon
    ----------
    move1: Agility
    move2: Tri Attack
    move3: Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
    move4: Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ground
    item: Oran Berry / Life Orb
    ability: Trace
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Speed

    C/p'd from Vader's analysis. A monster, and is easily capable of sweeping teams after an Agility.

    -or-

    Zigzagoon
    ----------
    move1: Substitute
    move2: Belly Drum
    move3: Seed Bomb
    move4: Other option
    item: Salac Berry
    ability: Pickup (Gluttony isn't legal)
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 196 Att / 196 Spe / Other EVs

    Again, probably even easier to sweep through teams if setup. If not though, than it's somewhat of a dead weight, unlike Porygon.

    So yeah, those are my two suggestions for sweepers since it seems like MGXHYUButo (lol) has been chosen as a lead.
  14. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    We are done talking about sweepers atm, though I do like both of those options.

    Hmm, I'm beginning to second guess the "Surf" option on Kabuto. I mean, why don't we just use Waterfall with max attack?

    We get higher Damage output due to not splitting EVs and some nice extra bulk to absorb Fake Outs etc.

    Once we decide on Surf vs Waterfall, then we can move on to revenge killer and Missy counter; assuming no one else has any better ideas for lead.
  15. Articanus

    Articanus

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    Does Waterfall OHKO Phanpy? I would keep Surf if it doesn't, but that's your call.
  16. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Well Surf vs Waterfall:

    Surf always OHKOes Phanpy. Waterfall doesn't.

    Waterfall allows you to have a more powerful Aqua Jet and Rock Slide. Surf needs investment.

    Those are the two arguments. I think I prefer Waterfall, but I really don't know.

    Also, we don't need a Missy "counter", we need something that beats it. In that slot I think we should consider Munchlax since we are heavily Ice-Weak at the moment.
  17. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    I think we can leave the Surf / Waterfall as a slash in the final CCAT, since neither will have a truly big impact on the overall team. I guess we can settle for pick your poison at the moment and move on to more important stuff for now.

    I say we go on to our final two slots for now
  18. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Good idea MGX. Let's move onto our last two slots.

    We need a revenge killer and something to check Missy with. If we can fit something to check / revenge Gligar as well, that would also be quite beneficial.

    For Missy check I think we have a few options:

    Stunky (Overall best check, but aside from beating Missy it's basically useless)
    Houndour (has trouble switching into LO and Sub variants)
    Munchlax (has trouble vs bulky WoW variants)
    Taillow (can switch in on anything but Thunderbolt and beat Missy 1v1)
    (Other).

    For revenge killers we have two-ish options on a type of revenge killer:

    Priority
    Choice Scarf

    Priority is really good but is often too "weak" to get the job done. Choice Scarfers have the possibility of being outsped, or being turned into set up bait.

    Lets talk about revenge killer, then Missy Check. The current topic is revenge killer.
  19. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    yay REVENGE KILLERS

    ok first few things that sprung to my mind:

    Choice Scarf Houndour: This basically gives us a two fold weapon: Missy Check and Revenge Killer. STAB Fire Blast and Dark Pulse are nothing to laugh at, and with HP it can hit most of the metagame for massive damage.

    Choice Scarf Cranidos: RAAAWRRR. I think everyone knows why this is a beast, but now I am getting a bit concerned about priority in the form of Croagunk and Carvanha. Moreso Carvanha as Wynaut does a good job at taking out Croagunk.

    Choice Scarf Mankey: U-Turn is the big seller here, I absolutely love U-Turn on anything. Scouting is big for the team and one may also choose to switch Wynaut into the opposing switch in if its a mon like say Bronzor or a Croagunk even or ideally a ghost which we trap with our Ghost Killer.

    Choice Scarf Gastly: Timid Gastly is capable of outspeeding nearly all other Scarfers with 27 Speed, and hits hard with Double STAB. Energy Ball or TBolt nicely round up the set and Explosion is for "going out with a bang." Gastly is also a great Dratini check, outspeeding +1 Dratini and OHKOing with Shadow Ball or Sludge Bomb while being immune to Extremespeed.

    LOGunk: EH FO + Vwave + Sucker Punch pretty much covers most threats. Its getting a bit bland though, although we might need something like Gunk to take on water type attacks.

    what elseeeee

    Probably all the fucking Choice Scarfers go here, like say ScarfMite, ScarfStunky, ScarfChinchou even.
  20. Psykout22

    Psykout22

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    ok well the last two members should cover resistances, revenge kill and ghost check, 3 things for 2 members:

    I first of all wanted scarfkey and teddy, but that didn't cover resistances, tailow offered the similar problem with ice weak.
    However, Tailow really does check missy (apart from t-bolt + lose speed tie), it can live a hp fight after sr damage to KO back with Brave Bird. However this is just breakfast, it also KOes Floon without the SR damage help... such power.
    And so i have Tailow, to stop ground resistances and a great ghost switch in.

    This set: Facade, Brave Bird, QA,

    I then think about ice weak, and suddenly i realize we need a scarfer:
    Scarfchou, a great choice, making a special sweeper and great go-to pokemon resisting loads of different attacks is a worthwhile place in CCat, it also packs quite the punch with unique typing for STAB and unresisted coverage.

    This set: Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and Hidden Power (Grass).

    Tailow and Chinchou, two great pokemon that work well together (no weakness between them either).

    RAWR
  21. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Excellent idea Psyk, most of us agreed on IRC that these two Pokemon work quite well in our last two slots. Still waiting on other suggestions before making a decision though.
  22. Rolf

    Rolf

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    The Zigzagoon set I posted in the statistics works really well to revenge kill anything not ghost typed, and can manage against those too. It's XS is the strongest priority in the game outside of Sucker Punches from Stunky/Houndour, but is resisted by less. Oh, and doesn't require the other person to attack. It works overall very well as a priority revenger.

    Levitate Bronzor always works well as a Gligar check, and is also an underrated Missy check. Just run Payback and BAM. Easy missy check. Even if it burns you Payback 2HKOs.(correct me if I'm wrong) You can also run HP Ice to beat any Gligar. Overall a great poke.

    Of course the others suggested work well two, just those two haven't been suggested yet, so I want to bring them into discussion.
  23. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Burned Payback vs max HP Missy: (32.00% - 40.00%). That 5HKOes with Oran.
    Burned Payback vs min HP Missy: (36.36% - 45.45%). That 4HKOes with Oran, 3HKOes without.

    Some check....

    Zigzagoon's ExtremeSpeed isn't a reliable revenge killer at all. Especially if we aren't using a Ghost-trapper, Ghosts will just switch in and stop Zigzagoon in it's tracks. While it is 120 Base Power, Zigzagoon only has 13 Atk, meaning even Pokemon like Dratini's ExtremeSpeed will hit just as hard or harder.

    Thanks for the suggestion though. That Zigzagoon set is pretty cool.

    Still looking for more suggestions or people to agree with Taillow / Chinchou.
  24. Sledge

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    I think Tailow/Chinchou looks pretty good seems to fit perfect with this team. Not much else to say except agreeing with everything Psykout said.
  25. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Well then let's test! Here is the team:

    Kabuto (M) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 36 HP/196 Atk/36 Def/236 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Aqua Jet
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rock Slide
    - Waterfall / Surf (make sure to change the EVs to 236 SpA and 36 Atk)
    ---
    Wynaut (M) @ Oran Berry
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 76 HP/212 Def/12 Spd/132 SDef
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Safeguard / Destiny Bond / Tickle (I like this actually)
    - Encore
    - Mirror Coat
    - Counter
    ---
    Taillow (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 236 Atk/236 Spd/36 SDef
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - Facade
    - Quick Attack
    - U-turn
    ---
    Chinchou (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 52 Def/220 Spd/232 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk) / Modest nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Hydro Pump / Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    ---
    Dratini (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Shed Skin
    EVs: 28 HP/244 Atk/196 Spd/36 SDef
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Aqua Tail / Waterfall
    - Outrage
    - Extremespeed
    ---
    Gligar (M) @ Oran Berry
    Ability: Hyper Cutter
    EVs: 236 Atk/236 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stone Edge
    - Quick Attack
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    ---

    Now here is a list of potential problems I see:

    Misdreavus-weak if Taillow is gone / weakened with Stealth Rock. This is honestly my biggest concern.

    HEAVY Ice-weakness; Chinchou is our only defense against them and it's scarfed.

    Possibly has some trouble with Bronzor, but Wynaut should take care of that.

    We will test this for about a week and see if any of these possible problems are that major. If we need to switch something, we will do it! Have fun!

    EDIT: I am having some trouble with Scarf Cranidos (never though of this) and Misdreavus (as I predicted). I am going to try to see if I can make Gligar bulkier to deal with Cranidos. Otherwise we might need to re-think some of our slots because of it's merely decent type-synergy.
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