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Postgame Company Mafia (NOC) Postgame

Discussion in 'Circus Maximus' started by Blue_Tornado, Jul 6, 2012.

  1. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    Company Mafia Postgame

    Game Thread

    Let's start by glancing at the game's progression. No effort is needed to realize that the scumteam was steamrolled. This is generally caused by two things: imbalance and play. Both took part here to result in a nearly flawless victory.

    Imbalance is generally caused by the host's flaws in game format and game management. As I feared, the format was indeed imbalanced and unfair towards scum. What stopped me from tweaking it, though, was the assumption that Smogon Town (tm) was worse than your average town, an assumption that formed after Medieval Mafia. I had assumed mislynches, to say the least, and was not expecting an ideal use of the vig shot. Technically, town being bad was a very valid assumption, and only combined with my game management did this completely backfire.

    What I mean by that is simple: I should not have distributed roles the way I did. I was in the mindset of making town as strong as possible, because I wasn't expecting much, without realizing that I overdid it. Giving PRs to players that would not get NK'd due to not being obvtown resulted in a bunch of players getting cleared due to their claims, players that would have made for fine mislynches otherwise. I also did not want the PRs to get namekilled, which is why I gave players such as Da Letter El and Paperblade roles that were [bordering on] useless. Finally, as if that wasn't enough, I reserved the VT slots to players whom I imagined were too unstable and inexperienced to be scum. Of course, this resulted in said players being handwaved as town under the assumption that this is exactly what I did. From now on I know to spread players evenly between PRs and VTs, to say the least.

    To sum it up, had I not been extremely pro-town during format finalization and role distribution, this game would have been perfectly balanced. In theory, anyway; like I said, imbalance isn't the only cause here. The scumteam were, simply put, blatantly scummy. It reached a point in which most if not all outside observers were able to name the scumteam without breaking a sweat. I will admit that my failed balancing played a part in their being easily snuffed out, but play being below average was certainly a factor.

    The format is basically a very defensive town (Doctor + Bulletproof + Watcher) against a strong scumteam (Roleblocker + Rolecop + Backup). Adding an info role at the cost of a Godfather seemed balanced enough. What I believe made the format too pro-town was the inclusion of the Innocent Child; it was meant as a tool to spark discussion during earlygame, but quickly turned into nothing but a clear on someone that was otherwise a viable mislynch target. I also considered the Neighborizer harmless desipte being able to self-clear in this game by simply targeting players. Scum Neighborizers exist (it's why they're called neighbors and not masons), but it was rightfully hard to believe that I would include such a role in a Smogon Mafia game, resulting in that self-clear.

    That's enough about technicalities, though; the heart of NOC is the play itself, so let's take a look at that, shall we? Smogon Town still suffers from that same problem of Follow the Leader. This isn't role madness: players' reads are not based on proof. The very idea behind NOC games is for town to build collective opinions by each contributing their own reads and input. By following a single player's (or numbered players') reads you not only hurt the town drastically but also open the door for scum to completely take over the game. It can't be helped; if you do not post in the mindset of contributing to hunting scum by sharing your thoughts, you're hurting the town. Smogon Town will vastly improve when the majority of players get this down.

    Something I did notice is that, despite the inexperience and flaws, a handful of players poured their heart into the game, and this is why I believe we have a foundation from which we can improve and eventually reach a high level of NOC play. I'd personally want to see a smaller game being played out by commited players, or maybe a few such games. Those will eventually lead to some very good games, no doubt.

    This was a nice experience as a host and, I'm sure, was also a nice experience for plenty of players and even some non-players. I wouldn't mind hosting more games in the future.

    Since some of you like meaningless awards, Town MVP goes to Da Letter El for taking a very strong approach and performing adequately well and Scum MVP goes to Vintage Books for being the closest to following scum's WC (survival!), despite (thanks to?) coasting through the first half of the game. :/

    Link to the post with the links.
  2. UllarWarlord

    UllarWarlord

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    WHY did you give ME Innocent Child? That's all I want to know.

    I wasn't much use in this game, so I'm not really good at making a nice comment...besides the above.

    gg all!
  3. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    Again, pro-town thinking. I thought you were going to be hard to read-clear. You and several others fit the bill, it's just coincidence that I picked you.
  4. Aura Guardian

    Aura Guardian

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    Good game, all. Just wondering: is there going to be an analysis of some major players, such as playstyle, how it did, etc? Or is the game thread enough for that?

    Also, why did I get BPV? Just wondering.
  5. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    Seemed like a likely NK. ~pro-town thinking~

    It's kind of hard to do player-by-player analysis with NOC. Only, like, general opinions, and a lot of dudes were similar in that regard so there's not too much of a point.
  6. Da Letter El

    Da Letter El Officially internet famous
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    To be fair, I thought cape was mafia largely BECAUSE of his role, lol.

    The day vig was unnecessary for town. You essentially gave the village way too many clears via role claims and didn't give the mafia enough (any) safeclaims to really work with. Add in an extra kill when the mafia only has 4 members (and thus the town got 4 mislynches - none of which were needed I might add) and it leads to a really hard game for the mafia. When it was clear that there was a mafia hooker, it was clear the watcher was clear. The doctor's obviously going to be clear, and there's going to be some sort of inspector. Then with ullar and the day vig, that's 4 clears, as well as at least one of announcer/neighbor. That's just too difficult for a mafia to overcome. To be fair, this village would 100% lose if the godfather were inspected, because we're used to taking inspections as fact. But that relies way too much on luck to really be a reliable way for a mafia to win.

    To be fair, the deadlines were pretty scum-favored. However, the scum were pretty awful, I'm sad to say. Vintage Books was ok...Walrein wasn't bad but had some hilarious slips (I was dying when Walrein was like "what do you mean i'm the mafia hooker, I'm definitely not the mafia hooker"; thanks for telling me you're some other mafia role). The pressure and release of pressure on walrein day 1 gave away 3 of you incredibly easily. If you're scum, DON'T DO THAT. Just press people naturally. That pressure felt incredibly fake and it showed when we had 3 correct lynches in a row. All from that one incident.

    In terms of what the next NOC can do to be more balanced and interesting, I would propose the following changes:

    1. Try to give the mafia either roles or role-claims that are generally thought to be town.
    2. Give the town (and mafia to be fair) roles or role claims that seem a bit far-fetched, to allow for more false-claiming opportunities for the mafia and less village clears.
    3. Slightly extend the first and second day (I like 5-7 days for day 1 for a smogon town and 4-5 for a day 2), but keep the rest of the days around the 72 hour length. Activity definitely was slowing down near the end (as blue tornado correctly guessed it would), so I think 72 hours is a good deadline for a smogon town in a NOC from day 3 and on. This will make for better reads.
    4. Either give the mafia more members or the town less strong power roles. Slightly self-explanatory

    I think the above would make for a bit better and interesting of a game.

    I just want to say that I enjoyed this game, although I was a bit depressed that everyone took for granted that I was town. It made the game a bit more boring for me, because I had nothing to prove. I just got to sit back and pressure people, which was fine, but meh.

    Thanks for hosting this, blue tornado! All things considered, this was a fun game, and I hope there are more NOCs on smogon in the future!
  7. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    Yeah, yeah, I learned my lesson with all those clears.

    The point about people getting bored is exactly why I'm against long D1/D2 though, as I already told you. People that aren't into the game get bored after a set amount of time. If D1/D2 are long, the game becomes inactive at D3 instead of D5.
  8. Da Letter El

    Da Letter El Officially internet famous
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    Oh and how did manav godkill himself? I'm curious

    And as for capefeather, I just want to say that if you had not included your role PM in that last post of yours, I would have thought you were probably town. That last post you made felt incredibly honest; I think before, you were just trying to copy what other people were doing and saying, but your last post just felt real. So yeah. Sorry for all the suspicion lol

    Also cape's godkill, in my opinion, ironically would have helped us if I were to die the next night, because then he wouldn't have been mislynched by people being like "DLE THOUGHT HE WAS MAFIA GET HIM" and we'd still have an odd amount of people for LYLO (lynch or lose, aka only one more town member than mafia) instead of MYLO (mislynch and lose; aka two more town members than mafia), giving the town better odds.
  9. Yeti

    Yeti

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    yeh son i won da game.

    I actually did go back and read the posts of the users that were in suspicion - I figured VB was either mafia or someone else on the list was, so my estimate there was only 1, maybe 2, mafia left let me feel confident to use my one-time shot on VB who I had the strongest suspicion of and put a lynch vote on someone else suspicious. The odds both people were clean were slim to none imo.

    gg all.
  10. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    Oh dear... how did I forget this?
  11. Da Letter El

    Da Letter El Officially internet famous
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    lol

    I don't think any other response is appropriate
  12. j-squared

    j-squared

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    Thanks for hosting a good game B_T! A little skewed toward the village, but still a fun game!

    I agree that the village had a few too many clears. Also, AG's role should have probably only been 1-time (or at least alert the mafia that it wasn't just 1-time).

    I didn't like DLE/Itchni's use of previously sent messages for hidden communication. It didn't break the rules, but it kinda defeated the purpose of NOC. I'd like to see this type of activity banned in future NOCs. I also thought the Cereza/AG hook situation went against the rule of not quoting anything the host sends you.

    I felt that the village did a pretty good job of staying active this game...a lot better than in previous NOCs. I think the forcing village to reach a majority had a lot to do with this (I really liked this change btw). I thought this rule would help the mafia at first, but I think it actually helped the village this game. The mafia was forced to pick a side for each lynch; random votes and not voting were clearly scummy decisions. This helped in scumhunting. However, if the village had mislynched more, this might not have helped as much.

    I also think 72 hour days worked pretty well. Longer days lead to inactivity. I would like to see this format used in following NOC games (72 hour days, need majority or else vanilla gets lynched).

    I enjoyed this game, even though I had to sub in halfway through. Luckily, I had kept up with the thread, and it didn't take me too long to get up to speed (another thank-you to B_T for allowing me to sub).
  13. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    Forcing people to reach majority isn't usually needed because, well, it's in town's best interest to reach majority.

    The shenanigans involving use of outside-of-thread messages didn't break any rules and was against the purpose of NOCs, yes, but that's just like gaming the game (clearing people via massclaims, clearing people via "host would probably not do this"), it can't be helped. I let it fly as an original idea on their part.
  14. Paperblade

    Paperblade

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    I agree with j^2 on a good number of points, 72 hours with majority required seems to encourage activity and consensus for lynches whereas infinite time until majority tends to make people lose interest because days drag on and on and on. Even if the deadline can make people panicky and lynch dumbly, that only means people who waste too much time in the day tend to not lynch well, sooo...

    Also stopping people from setting up encryptions/code during temporary neighborizing/networking is probably for the best (at least in future games).
  15. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

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    I don't think it requires a direct ruling. You can mix things up to prevent abuse of knowledge (like in AG/Cereza's example simply not guaranteeing that results are the same). You can also make it universally unaccepted aka lame aka gay to do so.
  16. Paperblade

    Paperblade

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  17. Acklow

    Acklow

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    Hi, I wasn't in this game, but I found the final two Mafia with little effort. Ask B_T, this is very very true.
  18. zorbees

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    paperblade died so early i forgot he was in the game
  19. Vintage Books

    Vintage Books

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    :( This was my first NOC, and I fear that I initially became a suspect due to me simply not knowing how the game works at all. (though I was away for the first part) It took me a while to work things out and settle in, because I simply had no idea how NOC's work.

    I really think the fact I was found so easily was due to my lack of experience.

    Anyway, this was really fun, and thanks Blue_Tornado for hosting :)

    EDIT: weee I can now edit my posts.
  20. Aura Guardian

    Aura Guardian

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    If coolking hadn't caught on to you at first, I might not have noticed as much or been able to make as good a case against you.

    EDIT: This is not an edit.
  21. coolking49

    coolking49

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    wait... what? I understand Manav and pokemonrocks, but you classify me with them? I should be offended.

    also, you're welcome AG
  22. Itchni

    Itchni

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    I was actually intending on BGing paperblade on night 1 before deciding on Dale in the end. I think i send that with my PM right BT?

    But yea, good game. Didn't really do much but it was fun nonetheless.
  23. Vintage Books

    Vintage Books

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    Rediamond was also VT dont forget
  24. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

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    This was a very good game to read as a spectator too. Might be because I'm so new but I didn't figure out who the Mafia were as easily as the others.

    I've played some forum Mafia games in the past, and there NOC is the standard variant. If there is a new NOC game soon I'd like to give it a try after seeing this one (unless a Beginner starts up in the meantime, or even then).
  25. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    Not much to say. I got a lucky shot in the dark with OD, but failed with Walrein. I guess I kind of ended up voting for him in the end, but for the wrong reason...

    Less of a failure than I usually am.

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