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[COMPLETED] Aegislash

Discussion in 'XY Previews' started by alexwolf, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. MikeDecIsHere

    MikeDecIsHere And the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate.
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    Vaporeon is a pretty damn good switch-in to almost any single Aegislash set bar CB Head Smash. Worth a mention as an incredibly solid check.
  2. Imanalt

    Imanalt WHY BUNNELBY DO HAVE FUR?
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    its not really about shadow sneak. The thing with the spooky plate set is, it only works under the element of surprise. Plenty of things can switch into 3 of its 4 moves and proceed to ko you. Cb aegislash is much harder to outplay to switch in on, and so is harder to play around. Also you probably want to take away a bit of hp from that to run 88 speed evs so that you outrun uninvested skarm and things (notably bandtar) that speedcreep it. Outrunning skarm is crucial for the head smash 2hko to prevent it from roosting off the damage.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    With or without the surprise factor (which is not really a thing or at least shouldn't be, as Shadow Ball is Aegislash's best move) i can't think of many Pokemon that can safely switch into Shadow Ball. Special walls or tanks such as Tyranitar, Goodra, Sylveon, and Florges are OHKO/2HKOed by Iron Head (and Blissey by Sacred Sword while it can't do anything back). Ground- and Fire-types are dented by Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak, which is strong enough to 2HKO offensive Volcarona, standard Talonflame, Garchomp (after 1 layer of Spikes or two SR switch-ins), and Excadrill. I really can't think of any safe switch-in (that is a good Pokemon in this metagame that is) to mixed Aegislash, outside of SpD Hippo which loses with a SpD drop, if you have LO, or if Spikes are up. This set doesn't even need to predict most of the time as Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak 2HKOes so many things it's not even funny.

    And yeah, forgot to put the Speed EVs on the CB set, adding right now.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  4. Red3mpti0n

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    The reason i didn't try Assault Vest was to differentiate it from TTar as much as possible. IMO, Aegislash's biggest selling point as a trapper is STAB Shadow Sneak, which lets it avoid the 2HKO if it switches in on a Shadow Ball and OHKO the target if it choose to stay in. It also has a really low HP stat. I suppose it could work, but I'd rather play to its strengths.

    Although it has no merit yet, it's also worth keeping in mind that the set will be phenomenal once PokeBank is released, as Aegislash can then shut down the Lati's, Celebi and the newly Dark-weak Jirachi.
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Ok this should be ready for QC checks.
  6. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    Sets two and three are the same thing, I assume you meant to have the first one be an Autotomize set, but right now it's the Swords Dance King's Shield set.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Edited and thx!
  8. ginganinja

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    This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about alexwolf. Like seriously, these are like the same fucking set.

    I don't want to be a dick, but couldn't you fuse these together, since iv been staring at them for the last few minutes and they look almost identical. Im getting cross-eyed looking at so many goddam sets lol
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Sorry guys i fucked up and made some sets look the same. Changed everything back to the way it should be. The set with Spooky Plate slashed first is the wallbreaking set btw.
  10. -Tsunami-

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    I'm not convinced that Iron Head is better than Sacred Sword on the SD / King's Shield set (I haven't used / seen any of the others so not going to comment on those). You mention that Iron Head is basically just for Sylveon and Togekiss (Tyranitar dies to Sacred Sword and Goodra is hit hard by it as well), but those Pokemon cannot really touch Aegislash anyway. You can just boost to +6 on them rather easily if they stay in (if they're smart, they won't). Meanwhile, Sacred Sword hits Greninja and Ferrothorn, both of which are actual threats to Aegislash (as well as Bisharp). Sacred Sword at +2 hits hard enough regardless, so the power difference on neutral hits really isn't that large of an issue. Sacred Sword is also really useful for hitting Pokemon such as Mega Kangaskhan. Sacred Sword also allows Aegislash to beat Excadrill 1 on 1, since it can tank an EarthQuake. Losing coverage on Steel-types is also a big deal, since using Shadow Sneak on them will leave Aegislash with base 60 defenses that turn. IDK, I personally just feel Sacred Sword should be 1st slash on the SD set.
  11. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
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    The two SD sets and two All-Out Attacker sets need to be combined; they're super similar with just minor differences between them. Even for preview purposes we can just combine them.

    Also, the name on each set should be Aegislash, not Aegishield. Even in shield forme the name of the Pokemon is Aegislash.
  12. UltiMario

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    I was gunna bring up the 2 SD sets could probably manage a way to slash together but the other sets simply can't. Nothing else plays similarly enough, or have completely different spreads that make trying to slash other moves on pointless.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Which two SD sets Oglemi? There are 3 SD sets currently, and the one with LO plays very different from the others so i assume you mean the Double Dance and the SD + King's Shield sets. I am fine with merging them, as long as Double Dance gets the first slashed on the merged set (Autotomize / King's Shield, Shadow Claw / Shadow Sneak).

    As for the all-out attacking sets, as UltiMario said, they can't be merged. The first set is a powerful tank that takes advantage of every single good quality Aegislash has to offer, while the Spooky Plate set is all about wallbreaking and its tanking potential is limited, not to mention that its liable to get Pursuit-trapped after going into Sword Forme, something that the first set doesn't give a shit about.
  14. Namso

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    Double Dance and Swords Dance shouldn't be combined together. They play differently in the sweeping role and run different moves. You're going end up having to explain that if you run Swords Dance + King's Shield, use Shadow Sneak; if you run Swords Dance + Automize, use Shadow Claw; this is how you use Double Dance; etc. They look cleaner and won't cause any kind of confusion on their own, so I think they should be kept separate for these reasons.
  15. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
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    <p>Aegislash @ Spooky Plate / Life Orb<br />
    Ability: Stance Change<br />
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA<br />
    Quiet Nature<br />
    - Shadow Ball<br />
    - Shadow Sneak<br />
    - Iron Head<br />
    - Sacred Sword</p>

    <p>Aegislash @ Spooky Plate<br />
    Ability: Stance Change<br />
    EVs: 228 HP / 252 Atk / 24 SpA / 4 SpD<br />
    Nature: Brave<br />
    - Pursuit<br />
    - Shadow Sneak<br />
    - Shadow Ball<br />
    - Iron Head / Sacred Sword</p>


    -----------------------------------------------

    <p>Aegislash @ Life Orb<br />
    Ability: Stance Change<br />
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe<br />
    Adamant Nature<br />
    - Swords Dance<br />
    - Shadow Sneak<br />
    - Iron Head<br />
    - Shadow Claw</p>

    <p>Aegislash @ Leftovers<br />
    Ability: Stance Change<br />
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe<br />
    Adamant Nature<br />
    - King's Shield<br />
    - Swords Dance<br />
    - Shadow Sneak<br />
    - Iron Head / Sacred Sword</p>



    You can't tell me that the first two sets can't be merged because of an EV change... the addition of Pursuit does not a new set make.

    The two SD sets can also be merged, there isn't even an EV change, it's just a difference of using Leftovers and Life Orb.
    Namso likes this.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Here is why i prefer Iron Head over Sacred Sword on each set:

    King's Shield + 3 attacks

    Iron Head hits hard the specially defensive Pokemon that would be able to tank Shadow Ball otherwise, such as Goodra, Sylveon, Togekiss, and Florges. Sacred Sword doesn't hit anything that you can't already 2HKO (Excadrill, Ferrothorn, and Greninja are 2HKOed by Shadow Ball for example, and Hydreigon from Iron Head) but is useful if your team really wants to OHKO Pokemon such as Greninja and Excadrill because they are problematic for your team. Iron Head is superior.

    King's Shiled + SD

    With Shadow Sneak and Sacred Sword, your strongest attack has a BP of 90 against Pokemon that are neutral to both, which sucks. On the other hand, Iron Head provides you with a 120 BP move to use against neutral targets. Of 'course both moves are very good and have different targets but i just don't like how weak you are with Sacred Sword prior to setup against Pokemon neutral to your moves. Also, Iron Head allows you to have a way better shot at getting past Hippowdon. Against SpD Hippo it is a 50-50 mind game. You use SD as he comes in, then you either SD again as he goes for EQ and then you OHKO with +4 Iron Head or attack him at +2 as he uses Whirlwind and you leave him as easy pickings for the next time you setup. Against physically defensive Hippo it is a bit harder but still with the right prediction you can get past it as long as he has take 25% damage beforehand or seriously weaken it with Iron Head as he uses Whirlwind. Imo, faring much better against one of Aegislash's best and most common switch-ins and faring way better against Pokemon neutral to all three of your moves (Shadow Sneak, Iron Head, Sacred Sword) makes Iron Head slightly superior to Sacred Sword on this set.

    Double Dance

    On this set you already have a strong STAB move to hit Pokemon neutral to your moves and Hippowdon, so the better super effective coverage of Sacred Sword makes it the superior option.

    Mixed

    Uses both so no issues here

    Autotomize

    Iron Head covers Florges, Sylveon, Togekiss, and weakened Goodra, which would otherwise wall you and stall you out with LO recoil or just OHKO you back. Sacred Sword is very useful to OHKO Tyranitar and Greninja, but i think that Iron Head's utility is a bit more wide.

    SD + 3 attacks

    On this set you already have a strong STAB move to hit Pokemon neutral to your moves and Hippowdon, so the better super effective coverage of Sacred Sword makes it the superior option.

    Pursuit

    Iron Head hits hard the specially defensive Pokemon that would be able to tank Shadow Ball otherwise, such as Goodra, Sylveon, Togekiss, and Florges. Sacred Sword doesn't hit anything that you can't already 2HKO (Excadrill and Greninja are 2HKOed by Shadow Ball for example, and Hydreigon from Iron Head) other than Ferrothorn, but is useful if your team really wants to OHKO Pokemon such as Greninja and Excadrill because they are problematic for your team. Iron Head is superior.

    Choice Band

    Iron Head is your best bet against Hippowdon, one of your best switch-ins while also OHKOing any Tyranitar. Sacred Sword is your best bet against Ferrothorn and Bisharp but the latter is very rare and Shadow Claw already 3HKOes Ferrothorn. Iron Head is superior.

    Oglemi

    The Pursuit set has almost max bulk and a different move. It also has a very different main purpose than than of the wallbreaking set. It aims to trap and eliminate Ghost and Psychic-types while the other set is a an all out wallbreaker (while the Pursuit set is not such good wallbreaker, due to lack of SpA investment).

    As for the two SD sets that you mentioned i am not entirely sure. Let me discuss it with the QC team and come back at you.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
  17. Red3mpti0n

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    Why are we even giving all these SD variations (Swords Dance + King's Shield in particular) sets, again? Most are wholly outclassed by every other Aegislash set:

    0- SpA (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 142-168 (43.42 - 51.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    4 SpA Spooky Plate (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 193-228 (45.95 - 54.28%) -- 56.25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    If you REALLY want to use SD as a wallbreaker, the walls you can't break through with SD sets are broken down by Shadow Ball with no investment (lol Skarm calc.) So there's absolutely no reason to even use boosted Shadow Claw or Shadow Sneak to wallbreak, as the Spooky Plate wallbreaker set is superior. It makes you wonder why you'd even use most of these SD sets in the first place, since most aim to get past Hippo and Skarm.

    +2 Shadow Sneak has its merits, but a mixed Autotomize set is an arguably better late-game cleaner because it can already destroy faster threats with +2 speed AND hit the weaker defensive side of any given threat, as shown by a minimal need of investment in its secondary attack stat.

    Pure special Aegislash really doesn't struggle with special walls like pure physical sets struggle with physical walls, as most can't tank more than one Shadow Ball, if any. So again I ask, why use SD? Even CB is better...

    In defense of the Pursuit set, having tested and suggested it myself, it actually DOES play differently than all these sets that claim the same. It directly gives TTar and Scizor huge competition as a Pursuit trapper and I've highlighted what it can do in my earlier post.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    The SD sets don't have wallbreaking as their primary purpose but sweeping, which the special sets with Shadow Ball can't (except from the Autotomize set, which has his own problems). Whether or not the 3 existing SD sets all need separate sets is the matter that we are discussing right now.
  19. Rhoswyn

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    Why more speed EVs with Automize? Wouldn't you need them more if you are NOT using Automize?
  20. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    Mainly because Autonomize allows you to suddenly break new speed tiers, such as Choice Scarf base 90 and base 115s and such.
    Without Autonomize you're so slow (base 50) that there's literally nothing relevant to outspeed.
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  21. Rhoswyn

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    Ahh, I see! Thanks! =]
  22. Namso

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    Talked with QC, here is what the sets should look like in this order:

    <p>Aegislash @ Leftovers / Life Orb<br />
    Ability: Stance Change<br />
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe<br />
    Adamant Nature<br />
    - Swords Dance<br />
    - King's Shield / Shadow Claw<br />
    - Shadow Sneak<br />
    - Sacred Sword / Iron Head</p>

    <p>Aegislash @ Spooky Plate / Life Orb<br />
    Ability: Stance Change<br />
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA<br />
    Quiet Nature<br />
    - Shadow Ball<br />
    - Shadow Sneak<br />
    - Iron Head / King's Shield<br />
    - Sacred Sword / King's Shield</p>

    <p>Aegislash @ Life Orb<br />
    Ability: Stance Change<br />
    EVs: 88 Atk / 252 SpA / 168 Spe<br />
    Rash <br />
    - Autotomize<br />
    - Shadow Ball<br />
    - Hidden Power Ice<br />
    - Iron Head / Sacred Sword</p>

    <p>Aegislash @ Leftovers<br />
    Ability: Stance Change<br />
    EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe<br />
    Adamant Nature<br />
    - Autotomize<br />
    - Swords Dance<br />
    - Shadow Claw<br />
    - Sacred Sword / Iron Head</p>

    This means that the Pursuit set and Choice Band set are being removed. I don't get the point of running Pursuit. I would rather a) set up a free Swords Dance or Automize on the switch or b) nuke something hard with Shadow Ball and the like. Pursuit is still a 50/50 move as well. Tyranitar and Scizor are probably better at the job as they always have been. It should be an AC move on the mixed set if anything. On the note of Choice Band, I'm not a fan of it because Aegislash really misses being able to switch moves. It's moveset is pretty easily resisted by a number of Pokemon, so it can potentially screw you over if you don't play carefully with it. I get CB Head Smash is really cool (the whole point in using it), but I feel like it's rather unnecessary and inferior to Aegislash's more stronger sweeping/wall-breaking sets. Also, the mixed set has King's Shield slashed with the last two moves, as it's just a really good move. Being able to swap to shield form at will, stop physical sweepers, and turn into a decent pivot basically is worth it.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
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  23. AccidentalGreed

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    In favor of removing the CB and Pursuit set, too.

    Also, please slash King's Shield alongside Sacred Sword and Iron Head in that mixed set, as it makes a good pivotal move and allows Aegislash to choose moves if it has to hit something like, say, Mega Kanga, without being nuked by Earthquake.
  24. Plus

    Plus real vibes
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    posting to agree with Fuzznip and AG regarding CB and Pursuit, as well as ShakeItUp regarding Sacred Sword being the main slash on the first SD set. Ghost + Fighting is an infinitely better type coverage than Ghost + Steel (look at kitsunoh!!), even with the new perks that Steel gets against Sylveon and Togekiss. Because honestly, unless Togekiss is running Fire Blast, it doesn't matter if Aegislash has to use Shadow Sneak because you can boost up so easily. Personally, I'd opt for the ability to take down Ferrothorn, Greninja, and Excadrill more than I would try for a 50-50 with Hippowdon.
    I understand that Iron Head gives stronger neutral power, but Aegislash is in no way "weak" even after one Swords Dance when you have 150 base offenses to work with. From what I'm seeing, getting two isn't even extremely difficult with that set.
  25. ginganinja

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    posting to say that I agree with Fuzznip, AG, Plus, and ShakeItUp as I was present during the discussion.

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