1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

[COMPLETED] Crobat

Discussion in 'XY Previews' started by IloveslakingIGN, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    [​IMG]
    [Pros]
    <p>
    <ul>
    <li> Ground immunity, Toxic immunity</li>
    <li>Infiltrator's new mechanics allows Crobat to damage opponents sitting behind a Substitute</li>
    <li>Super fast Taunt</li>
    <li>Decent defensive typing.</li>
    <li>Can use Black Sludge instead of Leftovers to the same effect while damaging opponents who try to Trick an item onto Crobat.</li>
    </ul>
    </p>

    [Cons]
    <p>
    <ul>
    <li>Needs to use super effective attacks to deal most of its damage</li>
    <li>Weak to common attacking types such as Electric, Ice, and Rock.</li>
    <li>Average defenses.</li>
    </ul>
    </p>

    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>Stall Breaker<br />

    <p>Crobat @ Black Sludge<br />
    Ability: Infiltrator<br/>
    EVs: 120 HP / 136 Atk / 252 Spe <br />
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)<br />
    - Brave Bird<br />
    - Taunt<br />
    - U-Turn/Toxic<br />
    - Roost</p>

    <p>Brave Bird is the only attack you should really be using for damage, allowing Crobat to pick off fragile Pokemon such as Greninja and Alakazam. The EV spread is optimal for Crobat, allowing it to OHKO Alakazam and Trevenant and 2hko specially defensive Tentacruel and offensive Starmie and is better than full investment in bulk. Your Crobat can also OHKO Greninja after a little bit of residual damage. </p>

    <p>Offensive Defog<br />

    <p>Crobat @ Black Sludge/ Life Orb <br />
    Ability: Infiltrator<br/>
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe <br />
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)<br />
    - Brave Bird<br />
    - Defog<br />
    - Roost<br />
    - U-Turn</p>

    <p>This set plays differently from the above set, attempting to remove the opponent's entry hazards and screens so that another team member can come in after a quick U-Turn and wreck the opponent's team. This Crobat should not be brought in until the opponent's entry hazard users have been defeated. Defog is the entire purpose of this set, so it is a must on the moveset. Roost recovers HP and rids Crobat of its Rock-, Ice-, and Electric-type weaknesses. Beware, though, as slower Ground-type moves will now be super effective on Crobat on the turn Roost is used. U-Turn gains momentum, allowing Crobat to damage the opponent a little bit and bring in a counter. However, Brave Bird is the primary offensive move and Crobat's best attack, allowing Crobat to beat up the opponent's Pokemon with ease.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Any Steel-type with decent defense will beat Crobat or force it out. Magnezone and Magneton come to mind immediately, as they are immune to Poison-type attacks, resist U-Turn, 4x resist Brave Bird, and can OHKO back with Thunderbolt, while not being afraid of Taunt. Mega Scizor and Non-mega Scizor can outspeed with Bullet Punch and OHKO or 2HKO, depending on its state. Aegislash stops Crobat in its tracks as well.</p>

    <p>Repeated, unresisted, powerful attacks work well too. Heliolisk can come in, especially when holding Choice Scarf, and OHKO Crobat with Thunderbolt. However, Heliolisk takes a good chunk of damage from Brave Bird, and is therefore only viable as a revenge killer. Barbaracle can come and force Crobat to U-Turn away fearing Stone Edge. Avalugg can take a hit from U-Turn or Brave Bird with ease and strike back with a double-powered Avalanche. Mega Alakazam can come in, outspeed, and revenge kill with Psychic or Psyshock. Rotom-W can also OHKO easily with Thunderbolt</p>
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  2. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,915
    Not a QC but you'd better to mention the buffed infiltrator mechanics and it's implications in the Pros section. Because that's the main reason it's considered OU worthy. Say something like:

    New Infiltrator mechanics allow it to bypass screens and subs allowing it to be an offensive wallbreaker
  3. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    Thanks, Adding now.
  4. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
  5. ShootingStarmie

    ShootingStarmie
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,352
    Okay so I don't like the fact the offensive set is listed first. If you're going to be using Crobat, it should be used mainly for it's ability to stall break with Taunt, Roost, and it's ability to bypass Substitutes. I don't even know if I want to see an offensive set, as it's coverage isn't the best, and has a pretty low base attack, but if other QC members feel that's it's worthy of a set I don't mind keeping it.

    As for the checks and counters section, you have not gone into much detail, you've basically just said Steel types. I think you should mention that Crobat's defenses generally can't take on strong STAB attacks, meaning Crobat is a liability when facing more offensive teams. Crobat is pretty easily revenge killed by Scarf Pokemon like Thundurus-T and Keldeo, and Crobat is often set up bait for most sweepers if it lacks Taunt. As you said, Steel types wall Crobat's STABs and resist U-turn as well, so Heatran, Magnezone, Aegislash, and Scizor all make pretty decent checks.
    IloveslakingIGN likes this.
  6. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    Editing again, found some more things.
  7. Snunch

    Snunch
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnuswon the 8th Official Smogon Tournament

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,074
    Your HTML looks broken, the spaces inside of the tags are no good. Change < ul> to <ul>, < p> to <p>, etc. <br /> is ok. You're also not closing most of your <p> tags. Make sure you follow Oglemi's example very closely, HTML can be fickle.

    I agree with what ShootinStarmie said, except you shouldn't mention Heatran because it isn't released yet. Additionally, you should remove Cross Poison from the bulky set, because taunt + either brave bird or toxic beats all the relevant fairies except Azumarill anyway while providing a lot more utility against every other pokemon.

    The speed EVs on the bulky set come straight from UU, where outspeeding 115s was all Crobat needed to do. In OU, it should definitely outspeed Alakazam at worst, and depending on where Greninja's speed ends up, outspeeding that would be important.

    Although CB Crobat has been a usable pokemon in previous generations, LO has never been used. I don't see any reason for that to change in XY. I'd like to say remove LO from the offensive set, but if anyone wants to vouch for it I'm willing to change my mind.

    I see you're in the process of editing now, so I'll hold off on posting more for now. I think you use more detail and less fluff in the pros and cons section.
    IloveslakingIGN likes this.
  8. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    I've got two tabs open, thankfully, so I can see posts.

    Snunch, Thanks for the tip on the HTML. I wil remove life orb, since I have found that Crobat has a hard time staying in, and U-turn lacks stab, that it is more detrimental than helpful. Also removing CP on the bulky set, Azumarill will usually have Belly Drum already used if crobat is not introduced at the same time, and +6 Aqua Jet will wreck batsy.


    Pros and Cons is a WIP.

    Updated for now.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,209
    Defog, Super Fang, and Hypnosis need a mention on the first set. The first has huge utility and makes Crobat a pseudo-spinner, so imo it should be slashed on the main set. Super Fang makes stallbreaking easier while Hypnosis works very well in tandem with Defog and unlike most sleeping moves can't be blocked by Overcoat and Grass Pokemon (who wouldn't want to switch into Crobat anyway).

    Also, i don't like CB and LO on Crobat. Choice Band Crobat is pathetically weak by OU standards and gets forced out extremely easy, while Life Orb does not sit so well with Brave Bird recoil and SR weakness. However, if Defog proves to have a very big impact on the metagame, i would be more willing to use Life Orb. Until then, i think that both Sharp Beak and Leftovers are ok options for the offensive set.
  10. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    While i'm not convinced Choice Bat is bad idea, i will add Sharp Beak + Leftovers.
  11. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,854
    -Remove mention of Heatran
    -Keldeo isn't going to rely on HP Ice anymore when it is only slightly more powerful than icy wind anymore. Nor does it need it to beat Crobat, Hydro Pump does more 120 x 1.5 = 180 vs HP Ice 60 x 2 =120.
    -You do not need to emphasis only on a specific variant of Thundurus, regardless of whether it outspeeds or not, it one shots crobat and doesnt take too much from Brave bird
    -QC Team agreed to remove the second set a.k.a offensive set. it can be mentioned in other options. Remove mentions of LO Nasty Plot set also.

    Also please make this into a more readable format (bullet points rather than paragraphs of text).
    IloveslakingIGN likes this.
  12. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    updated, might need some help with the counters section, I feel like this thing has too many counters.

    -Removed Mega Mawile from counters, feel like it was covered with steel types. can re-add if necessary.

    -Still have too many words in the paragraphs. I'm good at adding text. subtracting, not so much.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  13. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,854
    You don't have too many words currently so I wouldn't worry about that.

    Alright so here is a few things you can add (of course feel free to disagree if you feel that what I said isn't valid):

    Pros:

    -You can add why infiltrator is so good now.
    -You can combine point 2 with point 4 - Great base with access to Taunt making it a great stallbreaker.

    Set Comments

    -Taunt always prevented set-up, regardless of whether the Pokemon was behind a Substitute or not. So please remove that.
    -Brave Bird is the main slash, allowing Crobat to pick off fragile Pokemon such as Greninja and Alakazam while Super Fang is Crobat's only way to deal with Bulky Steel-types such as Skarmory; allowing it to beat it with a combination of Taunt, Super Fang and Roost.

    Other Options

    -You can add to your point regarding an offensive set the EV Spread that is to be used since it will differ from the main set which currently has no Atk investment.
    -Add that Cross Poison can be used solely for Fairy-types as aside from that, it doesn't provide any good coverage whatsoever.
    -Choice Band can be covered also.


    Checks & Counters

    Your first paragraph can be the solid counters (Electric-types but bulky enough to take brave Bird, such as Thundurus-T and Zapdos, Steel-types and Rock-types) the second can also be a brief one about checks (Choice scarf mons like Latios who can ohko this thing). That should be enough.

    I am going to do some more testing as to what should be the optimal EV spread for this thing, I feel uneasy about maximizing the HP EVs.

    Finally, don't worry about quantity for now, these previews are meant to be brief while informative and to the point.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
    IloveslakingIGN likes this.
  14. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    Changed 252 HP EVs to 248 to round down stealth rock damage.
  15. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    updated again.

    In response to the EV thing, I'm not sure either, haven't really tested to many different defensive spreads, so i would appreciate help with that.
  16. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,414
    The slashitis in the set seems pretty bad. I would just do this:

    - Brave Bird / Super Fang
    - Roost
    - Taunt
    - U-turn / Defog

    Or, hell, make the Defog set separate. Hypnosis and Toxic aren't bad options, but they aren't taking extreme priority. Hell I even think Super Fang has a higher priority over the status moves, but that's just me. Additional Comments is where it's best left to IMO.
    IloveslakingIGN likes this.
  17. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    I'm going to agree that Hypnosis's less than stellar accuracy is a let down, so i've removed it from the set. Super Fang over Brave Bird without Toxic means that you can't kill opposing pokemon holding leftovers, so i'm going to keep that as a slash and add a note. Even then you are still walled by steel types, effectively leaving your opponent with a win condition should your opponent end up in a 1v1 against crobat while having any steel type, even those that take neutral damage from brave bird.
  18. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,854
    You need to remove this last sentence



    Regarding an optimal spread, here is one:

    120 HP / 136 ATK / 252 SPE

    OHKO Alakazam, Trevenant, 2hko sp.def Tentacruel, offensive Starmie and is better than full investment in bulk. You also ohko greninja after a little bit residual damage.

    IloveslakingIGN and Snunch like this.
  19. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    Thank you, I have implemented those changes.
  20. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,729
    I don't think any crobat set should lack u-turn, crobat's 4x resistance to fighting, bug, grass, and ground immunity buys it loads of momentum. At the same time it's very easy to switch into crobat, its only real offensive threat is a strong flying move which has many resistances. In many cases crobat usually likes to come in, and u-turn out immediately. In my opinion crobat has no room to suggest defog and taunt on the same set, Roost is necessary to stay in good health, an attacking move is very useful and necessary, and u-turn has excellent utility on Crobat. As a defogger crobat works to keep hazards off the field, and be a pivotal member of your team threatening a revenge kill on any slower fighting, bug, or grass pokemon, and providing excellent resistances while being very resillient. Taunt performs the same role, but serves as an excellent staller breaker, punishing pokemon that rely on status, set up, and other moves to beat Crobat, meaning Crobat can use roost, taunt and brave bird to beat out these pokemon. COnflating these two roles on one set sacrifices resilliency, or the ability to act as an excellent pivot (also giving up being able to hit psychic types hard which can be handy), and Crobat simply can't drop these qualities.

    From what I understand flying gems are available in gen 6 through rock smashing, thus a flying gem acrobatics option is worth mentioning in other options. Thanks to lack of recoil, and lack of leftovers Crobat's survivability is very comparable to the standard leftovers/brave bird set up. Acrobatic's power is also very similar to Brave bird's. However it offers the utility of the first attack being significantly stronger allowing for somem ore revenge kills. Lack of leftovers is worse, typically if youre u-turning a lot, as opposed to being offensive, but both set ups have merit.
  21. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    I will do some testing later this week, today and tomorrow are going to be very busy for me with work. I don't think that a revenge killer set is viable, seems like a waste of an item on a pokemon like Crobat.

    Seems Gimmicky.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
  22. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    Removed Thundurous, rementioned heavy assaults.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
  23. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,854
    1) From the way I look at things, this set is a stallbreaker set meaning that it HAS to have taunt and Roost and U-Turn has been a staple on Crobat for quite sometime, and I doubt things will change now. Sure Defog is great but since the set is a stallbreaker, the aforementioned moves are needed. This is a tricky situation simply because I'd rather not see Defog which is really important be a secondary slash(U-Turn shouldn't be replaced for anything tbh)..the two moves can't be hosts of the same moveslot.

    2) Perhaps another set or a strong mention in AC of a more offensive set (Brave Bird / Defog / ??? /???/) and 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe jolly (Life Orb/ Leftovers I don't mind) should suffice. Other QC members need to weigh in on this before it is given the stamp so this isn't final.

    3) The checks and counters section needs some rewording and additions of specific Pokemon. if you could add a few more, especially 6th gen ones, it would be sweet.

    4) Aside from that, all the types should be capitalized eg. Steel-type Pokemon' as well as move names 'Bullet Punch'.

    Almost there dude! Just make these changes and hopefully when QC finalizes whether my suggestion is a-ok, this can be stamped
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
    IloveslakingIGN and Colonel M like this.
  24. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    editing in the above changes.
  25. IloveslakingIGN

    IloveslakingIGN

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    146
    Edited the above changes in, if I missed something let me know. Going to work on this another day and then put it up for QC.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)