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[COMPLETED] Florges

Discussion in 'XY Previews' started by Hypercut, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    [​IMG]

    [Pros]

    <ul>
    <li>Florges has amazing special bulk and good Special Attack.</li>
    <li>With its Fairy typing, it can withstand Dark- and Fighting-type attacks and be immune to Dragon-type attacks.</li>
    <li>Also, it has enough power to OHKO Dragon-types such as Noivern, Dark-type such as Malamar, and Fighting-type such as Lucario.</li>
    <li>It has access to Aromatherapy and Wish to support itself and its teammates.</li>
    </ul>

    [Cons]

    <ul>
    <li>Florges's Defense leaves a lot to be desired.</li>
    <li>Horribly walled by Steel-types.</li>
    <li>Not so good HP stat for a Wish user.</li>
    <li>There are only a few real options in terms of movepool.</li>
    </ul>

    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>name: Support<br />
    move 1: Wish<br />
    move 2: Protect<br />
    move 3: Moonblast<br />
    move 4: Aromatherapy / Toxic</p>
    ability: Flower Veil<br />
    item: Leftovers<br />
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD<br />
    nature: Calm</p>

    <p>This is the best set Florges can run. An amazing Special Defense stat and a decent Special Attack stat make it very hard to shut down. This set allows Florges to be a Wish supporter, in order to heal its teammates' HP. Protect allows Florges to utilize Wish itself, or just scout the opponent's move. Moonblast is the STAB move of choice, as it drops the Special Attack stat of the opposing Pokemon, making Florges even harder to shut down. This STAB also serves to OHKO most Dragon-, Dark-, and Fighting-type Pokemon, and even does good neutral damage against Pokemon that have a low Special Defense stat. While Sylveon seems to outclass Florges as a Wish passer, Florges's access to Aromatherapy, which allows it to heals status problems on the team, makes it the better Wish passer. While Aromatherapy is Florges's primary choice, it can run Toxic instead to cripple special attackers such as Volcarona and Mega Blastoise, which Florges naturally checks very well, but cannot do much else against.</p>

    <p>Physically bulky Pokemon are very useful to cover up Florges's weaknesses. Excadrill fits the bill very well as it can Rapid Spin away Toxic Spikes, which give Florges trouble; Excadrill also destroys the Poison-type Pokemon that threaten Florges with Earthquake. Rotom-W is a good partner for Florges as well, being capable of withstanding Steel-type moves such as Bullet Punch, and burning Pokemon to halve their Attack stat with Will-O-Wisp.</p>

    <p>name: Calm Mind<br />
    move 1: Calm Mind<br />
    move 2: Moonblast<br />
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire<br />
    move 4: Psychic</p>
    ability: Flower Veil<br />
    item: Leftovers<br />
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe<br />
    nature: Modest</p>

    <p>This set takes advantage of Florges's massive staying power in order to stack up boosts with Calm Mind. After a boost, it can deal serious damage, making it hard to switch in safely. Moonblast is the STAB move of choice, allowing Florges to do some good neutral damage after one Calm Mind. With Hidden Power Fire, Florges can OHKO Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Scizor if they try to switch in on Moonblast; the same applies for Psychic- and Poison-type Pokemon such as Alakazam, Gardevoir, Tentacruel, Crobat, and Venusaur. Energy Ball can be used instead of Psychic, but it isn't recommended: without Psychic, Florges is utterly ruined by Poison-type Pokemon. However, if your team has other ways of dealing with Poison-types, such as Garchomp or Zygarde, then Florges should run Energy Ball in order to deal some serious damage against the bulky Water- and Ground-type Pokemon that would otherwise interrupt your physical attacker's sweep.</p>

    <p>Sticky Web is appreciated on a teammate, as it mitigates Florges's lack of Speed and puts the opponent in a tight spot. Also, physically bulky Pokemon such as Excadrill or Rotom-W are very useful. The first because it can spin away entry hazards such as Toxic Spikes, is immune to Poison-type moves, OHKOes Steel-type Pokemon with Earthquake, and can withstand priority moves such as Bullet Punch that would KO Florges. The second because it can take some physically-based attacks very well and then respond with a Will-O-Wisp for a burn, use Pain Split to heal some HP, Volt Switch in order to gain momentum, or Hydro Pump to do heavy damage to threatening Pokemon such as Scizor.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>While Florges's Special Defense is massive, its Defense is not the best. It has serious problems with physically-based Steel-type Pokemon such as Scizor, which can OHKO it with Bullet Punch, and if Florges doesn't run Hidden Power Fire, it is forced to switch out. Toxicroak also forces Florges out because of its Swords Dance-boosted Poison Jab, but must beware of switching into Psychic. Fire-type Pokemon such as Volcarona and Charizard can safely switch in if Florges is running the defensive set, as they resist Moonblast and can threaten a sweep after setting up. Venusaur can also safely switch in on Moonblast, making Florges useless if it doesn't have Psychic. Aegislash easily uses the defensive set as setup fodder, and can proceed to sweep Florges's entire team. It's also very easy to outspeed Florges, as it lacks a lot of Speed. It all depends on the type of moves or set it's running, as Florges has a case of moveset schizophrenia.</p>
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2013
  2. srk1214

    srk1214 is a giant squid of anger
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    I'm not a QC or anything, but 4 sets for Florges is way too many. From my perspective, the Support/Cleric set and the Wish Calm Mind set are outclassed by Sylveon, due to Sylveon's better physical bulk. Neither of these sets have any speed, which is the only potential thing to differentiate it from Sylveon on those particular sets.

    Offensive Calm Mind seems a strange idea with low speed and mediocre physical bulk, however, this and 4-attacks are probably the better sets, since they can differentiate themselves from Sylveon with coverage. Sylveon essentially has Moonblast, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, and Hidden Power as options. These two Florges sets however can run a Grass type move, which provides help against bulky waters, rocks, and grounds (that are weak to Grass.)
  3. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    Unfortunately, if i put EVs in Spe on Florges, he still remains slow, that is the point.
    Hm no, Sylveon base Def is 65, Florges is 68, but yes, Sylveon's base HP is 95, but he still being OHKOed by Bullet Punch or takes serious damage from physical moves. So their not too different.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  4. FastFlygon

    FastFlygon

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    Yes both of them are fragile but Sylveon is flat-out better in pretty much every way as a WishCM mon and a Cleric. The only potentially convicing thing would be if Florges could:
    a. hit a speed benchmark easily that Sylveon could not, thus giving it an advantage over Sylveon versus that/those Pokemon
    b. score an O/2HKO that Sylveon cannot get due to the slightly higher special attack
    If you can provide proof of either of these (IE calcs or "with x EVs you outrun y") then fair enough but as is there's little reason to use this over WishCM Sylveon.
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    As the users above me said, Sylveon is better in defensive roles, so remove the two Wish sets.
  6. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    Done.
    I have playtested the two Wish sets, but i didn't think they were so useless lol
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    It's not about being useless (they are not useless), it's about being outclassed.
  8. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    Yeah, but Sylveon and Florges share same weaknesses, and for example Bullet Punch still 2HKO them.

    Assuming that Tyranitar is Sylveon (i've modified his base stats to Sylveon's base stats)

    Detailed Result:
    252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Tyranitar (+Def) : 77,66% - 91,37%

    Assuming that Tyranitar is Florges (i've modified his base stats to Florges base stats)

    Detailed Result:
    252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Tyranitar (+Def) : 82,22% - 97,22%

    Hmm, does not seem that much difference, or I wrong?
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Even if it's not much of a difference Sylveon still has better physical bulk and bigger Wishes to pass. Oh and a slightly better movepool (Shadow Ball + Moonblast get great coverage).
  10. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    Yes, you're right lol. I realize now that Sylveon can pass bigger wish than Florges. Distraction error lol
  11. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    This evening, when I come back to home, I'll update this thread.
  12. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    For defensive sets:

    Florges:
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD +Def
    Physical Bulk: 92880
    Special Bulk: 124200

    Sylveon:
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD +Def
    Physical Bulk: 98894
    Special Bulk: 117018

    Sylveon:
    252 HP / 196 Def / 60 SpD + Def
    Physical Bulk: 92984
    Special Bulk: 122534

    Even if Sylveon optimizes EVs specifically to outclass Florges, it's not COMPLETELY outclassed. It's niche is small but if in BW analyses Chandelure and tons of other random things can have 5 sets that are borderline garbage then I'm pretty sure 1 bulky Florges set deserves analysis, considering it fits the criteria of being both good and not outclassed.
    Princess Bubblegum likes this.
  13. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Can we mention Recover as a slashed move somewhere on the LO / CM sets. Its not a terrible move by any means and I was sure it gets Recover. Obviously disregard if I am wrong.
  14. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    According to Serebii, Florges doesn't learn Recover, I had already thought about it.
    Yeah, its not terrible, and in case that move will be updated, where i can put it?
  15. ginganinja

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    Disregard then, it was a PS! error (as usual -__- ) and the research thread doesn't list it as getting it. Ignore me.
  16. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    I can't ignore you because I still hope in that move XD
  17. Piexplode

    Piexplode

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    I think half the trouble is florges and sylveon are really similar.. their viable movepools overlap a lot. Ultimately Sylveon it seems is better justifiably by passing bigger wishes. Will be weird to see how two very similar pokemon will probably end up in 2 separate tiers due to one very slightly outclassing the other.

    Edit: Currently Sylveon can't run heal bell due to reasons. So Florges is the best wishpasser which can also use aromatherapy/heal bell. Should this be noted in the analysis, or will it become irrelevant soon?
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  18. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    Well, there's that. Since Florges can get Aromatherapy and Sylveon can't use Heal Bell, for the meanwhile Florges gets the benefit of being the Cleric Fairy. That should justify an analysis regardless of anything.
    Princess Bubblegum and Piexplode like this.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Yeah for sure, that's a good reason to re-add Florges's Wish set. Sorry for the inconvenience.
  20. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    Sorry if i haven't updated early this analysis, but i was testing again this Pokèmon.
    However, i have re-added Florges's Wish set, and fixed the entire analysis. Now I think that its QC ready.
    No problem Alex, we are only at the beginning of this metagame, and there are still many things to know.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Remove the 3rd set, Florges is very slow to us such a set. Its Speed lets it down against offensive teams and its coverage moves are not good enough to get past Pokemon such as Aegislash, Sylveon, Togekiss, and opposing Florges, meaning it doesn't really break any defensive core either.

    Also, why is Energy Ball on the last slot of the CM set? Ok it hits Azumarill and Hippowdon a bit harder than Moonblast but Psychic makes sure that Florges is not walled by Poison-types such as Tentacruel and Crobat, so it deserves the first slash imo.
  22. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    Yeah, i've noticed with some further testing. Thanks Alex, I removed third set and fixed CM set with Psychic as first choice.
    Now I think its ready for a QC.
  23. asterat

    asterat

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    Umm what the fuck is that second set, it kind of looks terrible lol.
  24. Hypercut

    Hypercut

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    CM set allows Florges to deal some serious damage, but its very slow and imo that set is not so terrible lol
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Change this to ''Amazing special bulk and good Special Attack''.

    Combine those two as they are the same Pro.

    Add that it has reliable recovery with Wish and it can also heal its teammates as a Pro.

    Remove this as it is just a repetition of the first Con.

    Slash Aromatherapy before Toxic on the first set.

    Also what is this supposed to mean:

    There are plenty of Steel and Poison-types in OU, and they can all easily switch into Florges as they resist its STAB move, making Toxic not the ideal option. Also, out of the Pokemon you mentioned, Goodra and Noivern are OHKO/2HKOed by Moonblast anyway. Just remove this sentence and mention that Toxic is good to cripple special attackers such as Volcarona and Mega Blastoise, which Florges checks very well.

    Make sure to describe the moves of the set in the order that they appear, which means that you first explain Wish + Protect, then Moonblast, and then Aromatherapy / Toxic.

    Remove HP Ground from the CM set as everything other than Chandelure is hit harder by the other moves and Chandelure is not common enough to give it a slash. Psychic 2HKOes anyway after a boost, while Chandelure struggles to do anything back. Remove the Energy Ball slash and just give it a small mention at the end of the paragraph.

    Add some teammates for both sets. Physically bulky Pokemon that resist Florges's weaknesses such as Excadrill and Rotom-W are good teammates.

    Oh and please fix the checks and counters section. You have Pokemon such as Gyarados that are 2HKOed with Moonblast after SR and you don't very important counters such as Aegislash.

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