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[COMPLETED] Gourgeist-S

Discussion in 'XY Previews' started by Shroomisaur, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    [​IMG]
    [Pros]

    <ul>
    <li>Gourgeist is a great spinblocker with a useful Ghost / Grass typing.</li>
    <li>It possesses solid physical bulk and useful resistances to common physical moves.</li>
    <li>Gourgeist-Small is surprisingly fast, able to land a fast Will-O-Wisp on common physical attackers such as max Speed Jolly Scizor, Breloom, Mamoswine, Excadrill, and Lucario.</li>
    <li>The Small forme makes efficient use of Leech Seed and Pain Split for healing.</li>
    <li>Frisk allows Gourgeist to scout opponent's sets.</li>
    </ul>

    [Cons]

    <ul>
    <li>Gourgeist-S has poor special bulk.</li>
    <li>It's weak to common special attacks and Pursuit.<li>
    <li>Gourgeist-S has low offensive stats.</li>
    <li>Fast Taunt or Substitute users ruin Gourgeist-S.</li>
    <li>It faces obvious competition for a teamslot from Gourgeist-H, which is bulkier overall.</li>
    <li>Gourgeist also faces heavy competition from Trevenant, which has more reliable recovery with Harvest.</li>
    </ul>

    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>Spinblocker<br />
    move 1: Will-O-Wisp<br />
    move 2: Leech Seed<br />
    move 3: Protect / Pain Split<br />
    move 4: Seed Bomb / Substitute<br />
    ability: Frisk<br />
    item: Leftovers<br />
    evs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 Spe<br />
    nature: Jolly</p>

    <p>Is bigger always better? The Small forme of Gourgeist functions as a surprisingly fast spinblocker with solid physical bulk and many tools to harass the opponent. With a Jolly nature and 184 Speed EVs, Gourgeist-S can outspeed many common threats including Jolly Mamoswine, Excadrill, Lucario, and Adamant Mega Kangaskahn. This allows Gourgeist-S to land a Will-O-Wisp and cripple the opponent before they get a chance to strike, whereas larger Gourgeist formes would take a full-powered hit. Combined with defensive investment and multiple ways to restore its HP, Gourgeist-S makes an excellent check to many physical attackers, including popular Rapid Spin users Donphan and Excadrill.</p>

    <p>With solid Speed, high Defense, and low HP, Gourgeist-S makes excellent use of Leech Seed, which inflicts additional passive damage to the opponent while restoring Gourgeist's health. Combined with Pain Split, Gourgeist has solid sustainability and can quickly sap the strength of a healthy opponent. Protect can be used for scouting and stalling against opponents faster than Gourgeist. Seed Bomb in the final moveslot is Gourgeist's most reliable STAB option. Substitute will leave Gourgeist without a source of direct damage, but it helps Gourgeist stall and protects it from status. STAB Phantom Force is Gourgeist's most powerful option and also allows it to stall for an extra turn of Leftovers recovery, Leech Seed healing, or burn damage before striking. However, it is a two-turn attack that locks Gourgeist in, allowing the opponent a free switch to a counter. This is especially bad if the opponent switches in a Pursuit user. Fire Blast with a Bold nature is a unique option to hit opposing Grass- or Steel-types, but with base 58 Special Attack its damage is pitiful against anything that isn't weak to Fire.</p>

    <p>Gourgeist does an excellent job of blocking Rapid Spin for your team, so it pairs well with entry hazard users. Gourgeist also suffers from poor Special Defense, so specially defensive teammates make good partners for Gourgeist. Tyranitar is a perfect match, combining excellent type synergy, incredible Special Defense, and access to Stealth Rock. Greninja is a more offensive teammate and can set up Spikes. Pokemon such as Blissey, Florges, or Sylveon also have good synergy with Gourgeist, handling special attacks with ease while providing Cleric or Wish support. Because Gourgeist relies on passive damage to wear down opponents, it is easily set up on by fast Substitute users. Reliable teammates with phazing moves, such as Mandibuzz, are great choices to pair with Gourgeist because they can prevent Pokemon from setting up behind substitutes as well as rack up entry hazard damage. </p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>While Gourgeist has excellent physical bulk, it is frail on the special side and has several common weaknesses. Special attackers such as Gengar, Greninja, Noivern, and Mega Charizard Y can easily defeat Gourgeist with their super effective STABs. Volcarona and Talonflame can boost in Gourgeist's face, only fearing the rare Rock Slide. Gourgeist also struggles against Grass-types with reliable recovery, such as Roserade or Venusaur. As Gourgeist-S relies on passive damage, any fast Pokemon with Taunt can shut it down. Crobat is an excellent example of a fast Taunt user that also threatens with a STAB Brave Bird. Finally, any fast Substitute user can block Gourgeist's Will-O-Wisp and Leech Seed attempts and force it out.</p>
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2013
  2. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Okay, I realize this post is small but let's be serious - why should I use Gourgeist-S instead of Gourgeist-H? I think that merits some explaining, honestly.
  3. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    I think the best comparison for this issue is Rotom-W. The on-site analysis lists a fast yet moderately bulky set first, followed by a slow but defensive set second... Gourgeist-S is effectively the faster and frailer version of Gourgeist-H. It has 99 base speed which is excellent, yet 55/122/75 defenses are still solid for a spinblocker. Small form can hit many Pokemon with a fast Will-O-Wisp that Gourgeist-H could never dream of, and a Gourgeist-S makes more effective use of subseed or even Pain Split (although I'm not writing up other options at this point).

    248 HP / 144+ Def / 116 Spe is a spread that allows Gourgeist-S to outspeed and WoW Jolly Breloom as well as Adamant Mamo and DNite, just as the fast Rotom-W spread aims to.
  4. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Fair enough.

    My suggestion is to at least let it be known why you're using the small version over the huge one in the analysis, though. Reasons that you stated should be meshed in there (I at least see Jolly Scizor).
  5. pedro702

    pedro702

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    i really dont like using a 58 base spa still it seems to be the best way aroud grass types.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  6. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Fire Blast is specifically for Ferrothorn / Scizor, as with such low base SpA it's only a 3HKO against 72 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur and other bulkier targets. Phantom Force is an option if you simply want to maximize your stalling potential, gaining an extra turn of lefties, Burn damage, and possibly Leech Seed as well.

    I also added a TrickScarf set, since Gourgeist-S is actually the 4th-fastest Ghost in the game. I'm interested to hear more opinions on it. This is my first official analysis here on Smogon and I'm excited to finally contribute! I will be finishing the write-ups later tonight!

    Edit: also removed mention of unreleased mons
  7. pedro702

    pedro702

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    scarf WoW doesnt sound that good imo sure after you trick the choice scarf you can utilize it without being locked into it but even than i would probably use destiny bond there.
  8. FastFlygon

    FastFlygon

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    I would say for the Scarf set the first move should be Trick as that is the most important, followed by Seed Bomb and then Will-o-Wisp and Rock Slide both slashed with Destiny Bond. I would also emphasise in the set comments that Trick allows it to cripple common switchins to defensive grass types, namely other grass types like Ferrothorn.
    I will probably post more thought's tommorow, it's nearly 2am here.
  9. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Thanks Flygon! Moved Trick up, write-ups are done, and I believe this is now QC Ready. The only note I have is regarding Pain Split - it's most effective on Gourgeist-S thanks to lower HP and higher Spe, but should it be slashed over Leech Seed?
  10. Red3mpti0n

    Red3mpti0n

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    I wouldn't bother mentioning Pain Split on the defensive set. You're fast enough to SubSeed pretty well. Leech Seed stacks residual damage with WoW and compliments Sub/Protect and Phantom Force. Also lets Gourgeist act as more of a team player, as three of the four teammates you mentioned for it have no instant recovery options outside of Rest.

    Add Chandelure as a counter to defensive set, as it is always either resistant or immune to Fire moves, can block Leech Seed with Substitute and will OKHO Gourgeist through its own Substitute with either STAB, thanks to Infiltrator's buff. It only has to be wary of Gourgeist's Ghost moves and Rock Slide, but they only 3HKO uninvested. Mention Infiltrator's buff on Crobat as well.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013
  11. mdbtg

    mdbtg

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    I have been using Gourgeist-S and it has been amazing - It just destroys physical attackers.
    The one thing I would recommend is that on the first set (with Wisp and Leech Seed) you slash Shadow Sneak which I have been using instead of Fire Blast and Phantom Force as it allows you to KO a weakened threat without taking another hit, even if you protected that turn. It also allows Gourgeist to beat weakened Ghosts and Psychics who may try and revenge it with a faster shadow ball.
  12. Red3mpti0n

    Red3mpti0n

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    I recommend removing Fire Blast from the first set, honestly. It's weak and none of its relevant targets are switching into Gourgeist anytime soon. Offensive ones like Loom and Scizor lose to WoW anyway and defensive ones like Ferro and Forry are either scared out by WoW or can just set up hazards as you 2HKO at best. So that leaves...Trevenant and opposing Gourgeist, which also don't require Fire Blast. I'd just go with Seed Bomb/Phantom Force
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Remove the Choice Scarf set. Weak as fuck and easy to take advantage of with anything that doesn't mind Grass moves. Trick alone is not enough to remedy this problem. Choice Scarf Rotom-W with Trick and WoW was successful in 5th gen because it had amazing dual STABs and one of them was Volt Switch, and also had a base 105 SpA stat. This means that it could check a lot of offensive Pokemon with just its STABs and OHKO them if they were weak to them, which is not the case with Gourgeist-S.
  14. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Fair enough. 1, 2, 3, and... Poof! It's gone. Just need QC on the defensive set.
    I'm hesitant to add Shadow Sneak since a 40 BP move as your only attack will leave Gourgeist complete set-up fodder for just about anything. Gourgeist-H makes better use of Sneak anyway. Obviously, Gourgeist is going to be fodder for something depending on its attacking move of choice, but I'll make it Phantom Force / Seed Bomb as per Red3mpti0n 's suggestion so you deal decent damage and break subs.
    NixHex likes this.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Remove Substitute and replace it with Pain Split. SubSeed is a bad strategy on anything not named Harvest Trevenant while Pain Split is actually a very good healing option with 55 base HP. Keep Protect slashed after Pain Split though, as you can stall for 25% damage each turn with WoW + Leech Seed.

    Mention as a con its big competition from Gourgeist-H and make sure to stress the important Pokemon that Gourgeist-S can outspeed and Gourgeist-T H can't (physical attackers of course).

    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  16. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Done and done! Removed all mentions of Subseed. Thank you alex!
  17. Goodbar

    Goodbar

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    I think a special set merits a mention at least in the comments. Primarily for Starmie - with the nature and IVs shifted toward the special side, you're surviving a 2HKO from a bulky spinner and a potential full OHKO from an offensive spinner. Meanwhile it threatens with phantom force or seed bomb so if you choose your switch ins carefully it makes a great counter/check. The added special bulk also helps it check some other special threats without taking a remarkable amount away from the physical spectrum in my experience (partially thanks to WoW). It's worked well for me at least.
  18. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Small form doesn't have any business trying to take on Starmie since it can't outspeed; you're best off running Super Size since that form has better bulk to begin with. If you want to try a SpD spread, choose Super Size... but even then, it's not very effective. I tested specially defensive Gourgeist-H before physically defensive, and the fact is that it still can't check offensive Starmie and there are too many super effective special attacks flying around. It's best to focus on Gourgeist's strengths, which is walling physical threats and spinners.
  19. Cuddlefish

    Cuddlefish

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    Hi. I've noticed how both Gourgeist-S and H essentially reverse in their strengths while the Average and Large sizes fail to find their own niche. Perhaps a mention of how Gourgeist-S out performs those two middling sizes and why could be appreciated. Seeing as how Gourgeist is unique in this size attribute, I think that a small commentary on the less popular forms would be appreciated. While I'm new to any sort of contribution to this forum, I've been reading through these posts for some time and I've been wondering about this. Average and Large sizes are vastly less popular in comparison to the more extreme versions and because of that, there hasn't been much buzz or call to make writ ups for them. On that note, as a reader, I'd like to see them mentioned because they're unlikely to rate their own in-depth discussion.
  20. PocketChamp

    PocketChamp

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    I'd agree that there's practically nothing for Gourgeist average or huge. Huge is just that bit faster, and average is just that bit bulkier.
  21. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Hi, sorry for the wait. This thing looks alright now (I absolutely like how you took advantage of its decent Speed, which benefited in many situations), so feel free to put in the prose now. Be sure, however, to implement proper capitalization on terms such as "substitute," which is supposed to be "Substitute." Also, be sure to put the set in the current format now!

    [​IMG]
    THIS ISN'T MY STAMP APPROVED 2/3
  22. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Yeah, this preview was ancient! It was the first thing I'd ever written in C&C, so I've updated the OP with the new format, made a few corrections, and the write-up is now ready. Thanks AG!
  23. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA Lonely Wanderer
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  24. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Thank you!

    This is now up for GP.
  25. P2X7

    P2X7

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    Amateur GP Check below.
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    [Pros]

    <ul>
    <li>Gourgeist is a great spinblocker with a useful Ghost / Grass typing.</li>
    <li>It possesses solid physical bulk and useful resistances to common physical moves.</li>
    <li>Gourgeist-Small (Consistency, which is also why I've changed later examples to "Gourgeist-S".)is surprisingly fast, able to land a fast Will-O-Wisp on common physical attackers such as max Jolly Scizor, Breloom, Adamant Mamoswine, and Dragonite.</li>
    <li>Small form makes efficient use of Leech Seed and Pain Split for healing.</li>
    <li>Frisk allows Gourgeist to scout opponent's sets.</li>
    </ul>

    [Cons]

    <ul>
    <li>Gourgeist-S has poor special bulk.</li>
    <li>It's weak to common special attacks and Pursuit.<li>
    <li>Gourgeist-S has low offensive stats.</li>
    <li>Fast Taunt or Substitute users ruin Gourgeist-S.</li>
    <li>It faces obvious competition for a teamslot from Gourgeist-H, which is bulkier overall.</li>
    <li>Gourgeist also faces heavy competition from Trevenant, which has more reliable recovery with Harvest.</li>
    </ul>

    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>Spinblocker<br />
    move 1: Will-O-Wisp<br />
    move 2: Leech Seed<br />
    move 3: Pain Split / Protect<br />
    move 4: Phantom Force / Seed Bomb<br />
    ability: Frisk<br />
    item: Leftovers<br />
    evs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 Spe<br />
    nature: Impish</p>

    <p>Is bigger always better? Small form Gourgeist-S functions as surprisingly fast spinblocker with solid physical bulk and many tools to harass the opponent. With base 99 Speed and 116 Speed EVs, Gourgeist-S can outspeed many common threats such as Jolly Scizor and Breloom, as well as Adamant Dragonite and Mamoswine. This allows Gourgeist-S to land a Will-O-Wisp and cripple the opponent before they get a chance to strike, whereas larger Gourgeist forms would take a full-powered hit. Combined with defensive investment and multiple ways to restore its HP, Gourgeist-S makes an excellent check to many physical attackers including popular Rapid Spin users spinners Donphan and Excadrill.</p>

    <p>With solid speed, high defense, and low HP, Gourgeist-S makes excellent use of Leech Seed, which inflicts additional passive damage to the opponent while restoring Gourgeist-S's health. Combined with Pain Split, Gourgeist-S has solid sustain recovery and can quickly sap the strength of a healthy opponent. Protect can be used for scouting and stalling against opponents faster than Gourgeist-S. Substitute is also an option that helps protect Gourgeist-S from status. The final moveslot is Gourgeist-S's source of direct damage. STAB Phantom Force is Gourgeist-S's most powerful move and also allows it to stall for an extra turn of Leftovers recovery, Leech Seed healing, or Burn damage before striking. However, it is a two-turn attack that locks Gourgeist-S in, allowing the opponent a free switch to a counter. Seed Bomb is a more reliable option, but has poor coverage and leaves Gourgeist-S walled by opposing Grass-types. (Maybe move this next part to AC.)Fire Blast with a Bold nature is a unique option to hit opposing Grass- or Steel-types, but with base 58 Special Attack its damage is pitiful against anything that isn't weak to Fire.</p>

    <p>Gourgeist-S does an excellent job of spinblocking Rapid Spin for your team, so it pairs well with hazard users. Gourgeist-S also suffers from poor Special Defense, so specially-(I'm pretty sure that there should be a space here instead of a hyphen.)defensive teammates make good partners for Gourgeist. (You have too many spaces here, so you might want to get rid of one.) Tyranitar is a perfect match, combining excellent type synergy, incredible Special Defense, and access to Stealth Rock. Greninja is a more offensive teammate and can set up Spikes. Pokemon such as Blissey, Florges or Sylveon also have good synergy with Gourgeist-S, handling special attacks with ease while providing Cleric or Wish support. Since Gourgeist-S relies on passive damage to wear down opponents, it is easily set up on by fast Substitute users. Reliable teammates with phazing moves, such as Mandibuzz, are a great choice to pair with Gourgeist-S, because they can prevent Pokemon from setting up behind substitutes as well as rack up entry hazard damage. </p>
    (Get rid of that hide tag, I don't even know why it would be there, but it seems like maybe there was a skeleton or something here?)

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>While Gourgeist-S has excellent physical bulk, it is frail on the Special side and has several common weaknesses. Special attackers such as Gengar, Greninja, Noivern, and Mega Charizard Y can easily defeat Gourgeist-S with their super-(There should be a space here, not a hyphen.)effective STABs. Volcarona and Talonflame can boost set up in Gourgeist's face, only fearing the rare Rock Slide. Gourgeist-S also struggles against Grass-types with reliable recovery, such as Roserade or Venusaur. Since Gourgeist-S relies on passive damage, any fast Pokemon with Taunt can shut it down. Crobat is an excellent example of a fast Taunter that also threatens with STAB Brave Bird. Finally, any fast Substitute user can block Gourgeist-S's Will-O-Wisp and Leech Seed attempts and force it out.</p>[/hide]

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