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[COMPLETED] Mandibuzz

Discussion in 'XY Previews' started by Shroomisaur, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    [​IMG]
    [Pros]

    <ul>
    <li>It possesses excellent 110/105/95 defenses and reliable recovery in Roost.</li>
    <li>Base 80 Speed is surprisingly good for a very defensive Pokemon.</li>
    <li>Mandibuzz's typing gives it immunities to Psychic and Ground and key resistances to Ghost and Dark combined with Fighting neutrality, making it one of the very best counters to Aegislash available.</li>
    <li>Foul Play allows Mandibuzz to deal heavy damage to opposing physical attackers.</li>
    <li>It packs a large number of support options, including Defog.</li>
    </ul>

    [Cons]

    <ul>
    <li>Mandibuzz has terrible offensive stats so it must rely on Foul Play or Toxic for damage, making it very predictable.</li>
    <li>Its typing gives it weaknesses to common attacks.</li>
    <li>A weakness to Stealth Rock greatly reduces its defensive potential.</li>
    </ul>

    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>name: Stallbreaker<br />
    move 1: Foul Play<br />
    move 2: Roost<br />
    move 3: Taunt<br />
    move 4: Toxic / Whirlwind<br />
    ability: Overcoat<br />
    item: Leftovers<br />
    evs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 Spe<br />
    nature: Bold</p>

    <p>Although one of the best defensive Pokemon in BW NU, Mandibuzz was rarely seen outside of the lower tiers last generation. On paper, Mandibuzz received an additional weakness to Fairy-type moves and little else. However, with the Steel-type nerf causing Ghost- and Dark-type moves to jump in popularity, Mandibuzz's typing gives it these two key resistances combined with neutrality to Fighting-type moves. This allows Mandibuzz to counter many popular threats that rely on Ghost / Fighting or Dark / Fighting coverage, including Aegislash and Gengar. Add in Mandibuzz's excellent defensive stats and immunities to Ground- and Psychic-type attacks, and Mandibuzz becomes a real defensive threat in XY.</p>

    <p>Foul Play is one of the biggest factors to Mandibuzz's success, as it allows Mandibuzz to bypass its own terrible offensive stats by using the opponent's Attack stat. Foul Play deals heavy damage to opposing physical Pokemon, while a Bold nature and defensive investment protects Mandibuzz. For example, standard bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados fails to deal 26% damage with Waterfall while Foul Play is a guaranteed 2HKO in return. Combined with reliable recovery in Roost, Mandibuzz is a great counter to many physical threats. However, Mandibuzz is also surprisingly fast for a defensive Pokemon, and access to Taunt allows it to perform as an amazing stallbreaker. Taunt prevents opposing Pokemon from setting up, healing, or using status moves against Mandibuzz, which combines well with Toxic in the final slot to stall out defensive Pokemon. Whirlwind is a great option on more defensive stall teams, as it racks up entry hazard damage while forcing out setup sweepers.</p>

    <p>The 52 Speed EVs allow Mandibuzz to outspeed defensive Rotom-A, while the rest are invested in bulk. Overcoat is Mandibuzz's ability of choice, protecting it from Sandstorm damage as well as Spore and Sleep Powder. Substitute is a good option in place of Taunt on this set, as it allows Mandibuzz to utilize the SubRoost combination to stall out slower threats. Knock Off is another good support option, but Mandibuzz will have great difficulty giving up any of the listed moves. Mandibuzz appreciates teammates that can handle powerful special attacks, such as Blissey and specially defensive Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. Because Mandibuzz is weak to Stealth Rock, it also greatly appreciates Rapid Spin support from teammates. Assault Vest Excadrill is a reliable choice and has excellent defensive synergy with Mandibuzz.</p>


    <p>name: Anti-Entry Hazards<br />
    move 1: Foul Play<br />
    move 2: Roost<br />
    move 3: Defog<br />
    move 4: Taunt<br />
    ability: Overcoat<br />
    item: Leftovers<br />
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD<br />
    nature: Bold</p>

    <p>The newly buffed Defog now removes all entry hazards from play, and Mandibuzz is a great user. With excellent defenses, typing, and reliable recovery, Mandibuzz can switch in repeatedly and use Defog to support your team. Taunt is important as it allows Mandibuzz to defeat opposing entry hazard setters one on one. By Taunting opponents such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, or Stealth Rock Tyranitar, Mandibuzz ensures that these Pokemon cannot set up entry hazards again after Mandibuzz removes them with Defog.</p>

    <p>The EVs provide maximum physical bulk to help Mandibuzz check physical threats such as Talonflame. This set works best with more offensive teammates, especially those that fear Stealth Rock, such as Talonflame, Charizard, or Volcarona. Rotom-W, Magnezone, and Metagross all have decent special defense, solid offenses, and good defensive synergy with Mandibuzz.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Although Mandibuzz is very durable, without Special Defense investment it is vulnerable to powerful special attackers. This is made worse due to the fact that Foul Play copies their low Attack stats and struggles to damage them. Greninja, Magnezone, Zapdos, and Mega Manectric are examples that can defeat Mandibuzz with super effective special attacks. Fairy-type Pokemon such as Florges or Togekiss also give Mandibuzz trouble, since they resist Foul Play and can threaten with super effective STAB attacks. Although Mandibuzz usually carries Taunt, it is ruined by faster Toxic users. Crobat and Gliscor are great Toxic users and have a faster Taunt of their own, while Tentacruel is also an excellent choice. Mandibuzz is weak to Rock, so keeping Stealth Rock up will greatly hinder Mandibuzz. Tyranitar and Mamoswine are great users that also threaten Mandibuzz. Finally, although bulky, Mandibuzz can be overwhelmed by incredibly powerful attacks from the likes of Mega Kangaskahn.</p>
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2013
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  2. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    In the last slot Taunt should be slashed first. You need Taunt to stop defensive hazard setters from setting up again after you Defog away their hazards, otherwise they can just do it again and again and engage a stall war that you won't always be able to win (especially against Ferrothorn, which has Leech Seed). Beating slower Pokemon that can't hurt you back significantly and take respectable damage from Foul Play is nice as well (such as Hippowdon, Trevenant, and Gourgeist). Finally, Foul Play deals with most set-up sweepers that you would want to use Whirlwind against (even Mega Lucario takes ~72% from Foul Play if he uses SD in front of Mandibuzz, so you can see that no physical sweeper is setting up against Mandibuzz, even those that resist it) so it's not like you are easy set-up fodder without it.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
  3. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Well I've been testing Mandibuzz on the ladder, and I have to say... this thing has completely blown away my own expectations. I mean, it was amazing in NU last gen, but that's where it was stuck. On paper, the only thing that directly changed for it was an added Fairy weaknesses, and yet just like Bisharp and many other Dark-types, the metagame has changed around it so much that Mandibuzz is incredibly useful in OU.

    Foul Play and Roost should be standard on any Mandibuzz set, the mileage you get from just those two moves alone is incredible. Mandibuzz is so bulky that most physical attackers without a strong super-effective move will get walled all day and 2HKO'd by Foul Play. For example, standard bulky DD Gyara deals a pitiful 27% with Waterfall while Foul Play is a guaranteed 2HKO in return. +2 252+ Mega Scizor cannot 2HKO a healthy Mandibuzz with Bullet Punch while Foul Play deals over 75%, and +2 LO Scizor is guaranteed to be OHKO'd. With Roost, Mandibuzz has excellent staying power as well.

    Defog is the one big bonus Mandibuzz has this generation, and although I was honestly very skeptical about using an SR-weak Defogger, it works quite well.
    Yeah, this was still a WIP and those slashes were just preliminary (actually that moveset was my old Knock Off set, but with Foul Play replacing Knock Off, which should explain the slashes). The set I've been testing sounds like the exact same one you're describing! It consists of Foul Play, Roost, Defog, and Taunt, and has been extremely useful in my tests. It craps all over hazard-users like Skarmory, Ferrothorn and friends. I will be updating the OP with this Anti-Hazards set. I also agree that with Foul Play, there's far less need for Whirlwind on Mandibuzz so that will probably go in the comments. Thanks for the post, alex!

    Since the anti-hazards set has 0 wiggle-room for slashes, I'm also going to add a second set consisting of SubRoost, which is another tactic that Mandibuzz uses very well if your team doesn't need (or already has) Rapid Spin/Defog support.

    An alternative EV spread of 248 HP / 120+ Def / 140 Spe gives Mandibuzz a faster Taunt/Substitute, allowing you to outspeed standard 16 Spe Toxicstall Gliscor at the expense of special bulk. Let me know your thoughts!
  4. McGrrr

    McGrrr Facetious
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    Toxic should be an option (and even preferred) on all Mandibuzz. It really needs it for stuff that don't care about Foul Play. Taunt AND Defog seems overkill to be honest. Knock Off should also be a legitimate option because this thing induces a lot of switching.
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    The point is that the Pokemon that Mandibuzz wants to deal with all are dealt just fine by Foul Play. Toxic is mostly for special attackers that Mandibuzz doesn't have a job facing unless it is using SubRoost (which is another set).
  6. McGrrr

    McGrrr Facetious
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    And my point is that allowing a free switch to something that doesn't care about Foul Play, knowing that Mandibuzz will need to switch out immediately, is asking for trouble. From a game theory point of view, any such instance is a liability that will cost you battles.

    A clearer example of this principle would be locking yourself into choice item Earthquake, but those instances involve relatively high reward for your risk. Mandibuzz shouldn't be putting itself in the same situation.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Sacrificing utility at the things you do best (getting rid of hazards and stopping hazard setters) to hit some threatening switch-ins with Toxic is not the best option, at least not on the Defog set. A Pokemon should first focus on the things it does best and then with the Pokemon that trouble it. I don't disagree with Toxic getting slashed after Taunt, but Taunt is 100% the best option for the last slot.
  8. McGrrr

    McGrrr Facetious
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    I'd actually drop Defog. Taunt induces switching, which complements toxic.

    Toxic/Taunt/Foul Play/Roost actually beats my entire team on its own (I'm not joking!!). Fortunately, I've only faced one of these, and my opponent used it poorly.

    Edit: honestly, this should be the absolute standard, because it completely trolls offensively orientated teams.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2013
  9. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I've actually had quite a bit of luck with the moveset Taunt - Knock Off - Foul Play - Roost. While Foul Play and Knock Off may seem redundant, I always find myself regretting not having one of those attacks on the set. Knock Off allows Mandy to be one of the best wallbreakers around (and annoys practically everything that attempts to switch into her), while Foul Play allows her to counter physical attackers like Swords Dance Aegislash with impunity.
  10. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Updated the OP with the new format. Hopefully that clears up some confusion about the sets.
    The reason Toxic isn't slashed on the first set is because it is a dedicated anti-hazards set. In order to be effective at ensuring hazard removal, Mandibuzz needs both Taunt and Defog, which allows it to laugh shut down things like Skarmory and Ferrothorn. Toxic doesn't help you against these types of matchups as Alexwolf stated. Also, many of your posts seem exclusively based on how your one specific team fares against these threats... there are other teams out there so keep that in mind!

    Anyhow it's easy enough to simply slash Taunt with Substitute on the subroost set which would allow that set to be an excellent stallbreaker. Also going to add the faster spread to that set to improve its sub/taunting ability.

    I agree here, I was using Knock Off Mandibuzz before I discovered Foul Play was legal. The question is where and how to build such a set. Knock Off and Whirlwind have great synergy together, racking up hazard damage and depriving multiple foes of their items. Taunt works well with Knock Off too. Something like Knock Off / Whirlwind / Roost / Taunt could work well and is very similar to my "original" set.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    The first set needs max HP / max Def to deal with physical attackers such as Excadrill, Mega Char X, and Talonflame as good as possible.
  12. Gondor

    Gondor

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    I've been playing around recently in showdown with the following Mandibuzz:


    Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Overcoat
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Roost
    - Foul Play
    - Defog
    - Taunt

    It really switches in well to a lot of things, but any most conditions really hurt it. It can heal through a burn or poison, provided it's up against a physical attacker, but the one attack type often doesn't do it any favours. It is fantastic against most of the ghosts you see in the current OU meta on showdown, such as Trevanant / Gourgeist / Banette / Aegislash. The faster threats such as Frostlass or Gengar, it can deal with, but they often pack thunderbolt or ice beam. It can eat an Ice Beam or two, and is able to revenge kill Frostlass, but Gengar will get it.
  13. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    While it probably doesn't deserve a slash, U-Turn deserves a mention on anti-hazards over Taunt since Mandibuzz is one of those Pokemon that you lose all your momentum using, and going for Defog + U-Turn can let Mandibuzz keep momentum on your side, especially if you come in and force out a hazards setter to get a free u-turn.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Outspeeding 16 Speed Gliscor is speed creeping so change the EV spread. To outspeed min Speed Rotom-W you only need 52 Spe EVs, so unless there are some other threats that i am missing, going with 52 Spe EVs is speedy enough.
  15. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Ok, changing the first spread to max/max, and the second to outspeed uninvested Rotom-A so you can Roost before he Volt Turns (defensive Rotom will never break your sub with Volt Switch if you Roost).

    You're right, U-Turn is definitely an option, Mandibuzz has tons of those! I'll add a mention of it.
  16. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Ok, after more playtesting I'm pretty happy with these two sets. I'm going to put this up to QC now!

    Mandibuzz has tons of other options... aside from niche things like Brave Bird, Mean Look, and Tailwind, the most notable ones are Knock Off, Whirlwind, and U-Turn. These are solid choices so if QC feels that a Knock Off, Whirlwind, Roost, Taunt/FoulPlay set for defensive teams is appropriate that is fine by me, or they can just remain in the comments.
  17. Namso

    Namso
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    Add that it's relatively fast for a defensive Pokemon.
    Remove the Fighting neutrality part, I would consider that to be a con given the advent of strong Fighting-type hitters, namely Lucario.
    Here you can include that the Fighting neutrality gives it issues dealing with Pokemon such as Mega Lucario and Medicham.

    edit: Yeah just remove the whole Fighting-type neutrality thing in general. It's not a pro and I guess it's not a con given the limited good Fighting-types in pre-pokebank.

    Also, can you add teammates to the sets please? For example, the anti-hazards set works well with Stealth Rock weak Pokemon, such as Charizard and Talonflame.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
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  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Fighting-types are not popular outside of Mega Lucario, so the Fighting neutrality is kinda irrelevant for the overview, though it's useful to wall Ghosts that rely on Fighting moves for coverage.
  19. col49

    col49 mi amor
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    Perhaps I'm overlooking something crucial, but I'm not all too sure that two separate sets are necessary when the difference can essentially be one move, and one that doesn't really chance how the set plays at that. Personally, I feel as though this could be comfortably packaged into a single set, consisting of Foul Play / Roost / (Taunt / Defog) / (Toxic / Whirlwind) without any fuss. I add Whirlwind because while Foul Play is all well and good for deterring set-up from physically inclined sweepers and so forth, Mandibuzz can otherwise offer a fairly safe window for specially inclined sweepers to grab a boost or two and inevitably overwhelm Mandibuzz. Moreover, Mandibuzz fits fairly comfortable in stall formats, further increasing the value of WW. I slash it with Toxic because Toxic+Whirlwind is counter-productive, and helps to convey that Mandibuzz can take the stance of a stallbreaker (Taunt+Toxic) or a multi-purpose utilitymon for stall (Defog+WW), though of course mix-and-matching can be done for individual necessity.
  20. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    I'll add a mention of its decent base 80 speed.

    The reason I mention the neutrality to Fighting is because Mandibuzz is one of only 4 Pokemon (the others being Honchkrow and Drapion/Skuntank) that resists Ghost while not being Fighting-weak. This is the reason why Mandi can counter any Aegislash as well as check Ghosts like Gengar that rely on the godly Ghost/Fighting coverage combination. Hopefully that makes sense.

    EDIT: rephrased that line in the pro's section to reflect this.

    I thought teammates were added during the write-up? I can certainly add teammates now (sorry, still getting used to the order of things here in C&C lol), thanks for the feedback Fuzznip!

    I understand where you're coming from, because initially I had this all as one giant set... but it was very cluttered with some awful slashitis. The anti-hazards set fulfills a specific role, and those moves are simply the best choices if you want a reliable, durable hazard remover. Crobat gets his own set for that role, so I think Mandibuzz wants a clean, dedicated anti-hazards set as well. Defog doesn't fit as a "slash" on a generic set very well, at least that's how I feel.

    As for Whirlwind, I can easily add that as a slash after Toxic on the first set. I agree that it fits onto defensive/stall teams nicely and that's another reason why I like Knock Off alongside Whirlwind, although if that deserves a slash somewhere is up to debate. As for now, adding the Whirlwind slash!
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  21. Namso

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    As far as I'm aware, nothing is added during write-up phase, you're just turning the points into full sentences. So adding teammates is required so QC can approve of the things you mention without having to read blocks of text fishing for it.

    You can keep the Fighting neutrality mention, you have a point. Perhaps you can make this clear for viewers, though. Mention something about the fact that its resistance to Ghost and Fighting neutrality makes it a prime check to Pokemon that rely on Ghost/Fight coverage, such as Aegislash and Gengar, as you already know. I would keep the sets separate as well. I would agree with you col in regards to combining them, but the slashes would get ugly and only specific moves should be used in tandem with each other, making the set comments a complicated mess generally. They also fit on different team archetypes and work well with different teammates I find.
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  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Keep the sets separate. The first set is a dedicated anti-hazards supoorter while the second one is a Toxic staller.

    Also, i am not sure about slashing Toxic with Whirlwind. If i were to use Whirwlind somewhere i would use it on the 3rd slot, as Sub can't go with Whirlwind anyway and Taunt + Whirwlind + Foul Play is too much anti-set up insurance and honestly seems like a waste. Toxic is Mandibuzz's best weapon against strong special attackers that don't mind Foul Play and so should be alone in the third slot. Make the last slot like this: Substitute / Taunt / Whirlwind.
  23. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA I am the King.
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    I feel as though Substitute is a waste, if you have Taunt you can prevent status move from slow bulky Pokemon in the first place in addition to preventing entry hazard Pokemon from staying in and setting up on you). Taunt is very important on a 'Stallbreaker' and should be the primary move in the third slot. This should not be called a Stallbreaker when it doesn't even have Taunt as a main move?

    EDIT: Sub Roost is good for stalling out bulky Rotom-W in conjunction with Toxic, it can get an Ac mention perhaps.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
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  24. Shroomisaur

    Shroomisaur Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.

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    Yes, I'll change the slash order to reflect the name of the set (it was previously subroost). Taunt is really amazing on Mandi from my experience. But speaking of subroost, that combination still works extremely well, allowing Mandibuzz to set up even on things like defensive Rotom.
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Yeah SubRoost is better for AC. Maybe we could mention a faster spread in the AC for SubRoost, to stall out strong but slower special attackers? Is there anything notable that Mandibuzz can outspeed with max Speed + Timid?

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