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[Completed] Vaporeon

Discussion in 'XY Previews' started by Okuu, Oct 29, 2013.

  1. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    [​IMG]


    [Pros]

    <ul>
    <li>A solid defensive movepool that includes Wish, Roar, and Acid Armor gives it the moves it needs to prolong its longevity on the battlefield.</li>
    <li>A high Special Attack stat allows it to make good use of Scald and other offensive moves.</li>
    <li>Good typing and respectable bulk make it notoriously hard to kill while potentially forcing switches.</li>
    <li>Access to Baton Pass, as well as set-up and support moves, makes it a fantastic candidate for Baton Pass teams.</li>
    </ul>

    [Cons]

    <ul>
    <li>The nerf to rain severely limits the viability of any strategy involving Hydration.</li>
    <li>Has to compete with many other Water-types to earn a spot on a typical team.</li>
    <li>Suffers from four-moveslot syndrome.</li>
    <li>Mono-Water typing lacks the useful resistances necessary to effectively wall many Pokemon.</li>
    </ul>

    [Set Recommendations]

    <p>Vaporeon @ Leftovers<br />
    Ability: Water Absorb<br />
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD<br />
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)<br />
    - Wish<br />
    - Protect<br />
    - Scald<br />
    - Toxic / Ice Beam / Roar</p>

    <p>Scald is generally the preferred offensive move on Vaporeon, as it not only makes the most of Vaporeon's 110 base Sp.Atk, but also delivers a chance to burn the opponent, reducing their offensive might. Its last move can cripple the opposition, whether it be through Toxic, which will quickly accumulate damage while the opposition fails to break Vaporeon's defenses, or through Ice Beam, for its offensive prowess against defensively-frail Pokemon. Roar is also a viable option, removing any Pokemon that would otherwise be able to freely set up against Vaporeon.</p>

    <p>A defensively-oriented EV investment maximizing HP and Defense in tandem with a Bold Nature means Vaporeon avoids getting 2HKO'd by common variations of Garchomp, Aegislash, and Alakazam, while walling just about everything else to a dead halt. Meanwhile, it can deliver massive Wishes to its allies, or use it with Protect to guarantee self-heals while stalling the opponent out. With Vaporeon as a physically defensive wall sporting Wish Support, it can form a reliable defensive core with a Specially Defensive Assault Vest user, such as Goodra or Heatran (both of which resist Vaporeon's weaknesses) and grant them a pivotal access to HP recovery.


    <p>Vaporeon @ Leftovers<br />
    Ability: Water Absorb<br />
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe<br />
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)<br />
    - Baton Pass<br />
    - Substitute<br />
    - Acid Armor / Wish / Aqua Ring<br />
    - Scald / Roar</p>

    <p>The timeless Baton Pass set-up. Even though Vaporeon has gotten nothing new to bolster the viability of this set, it's still quite formidable. With Baton Pass, Vaporeon can pass along a wide host of benefits to its allies. Substitute is the selling point of this set, allowing Vaporeon to shield itself or an ally with a status-absorbing, high-HP Substitute. Acid Armor is incredibly useful in this generation, with the nerf in power of many common Special moves and the resultant shift toward more Physical attackers on a team. Being able to boost any allied Pokemon's Defense can often cement a sweeper's position on the field, and simply using it on Vaporeon can force many common attackers away. Wish is another popular choice for the third moveslot, as it also takes advantage of Vaporeon's massive HP to heal incoming allies by a whopping 232 HP, and further bolsters Vaporeon's own survivability. Aqua Ring was a sketchier option in previous generations, but with overall bulkier Pokemon in the XY generation, it has a much greater chance of lasting longer, and conferring more of its benefits to either Vaporeon or the Baton Pass recipient. The last move is one to help Vaporeon stay on the field longer. Scald prevents Vaporeon from becoming Taunt-bait, does respectable STAB damage, and can cripple an opponent with the burn status. Roar can phaze away set-up sweepers that would otherwise laugh in the face of this set, as well as any immediate threat to Vaporeon.</p>

    <p>Maximizing Vaporeon's HP with this set allows it to create 116 HP Substitutes and 232 HP Wishes and makes Vaporeon much harder to take down. A 136-point investment in Speed lets Vaporeon reach 200 Speed, which allows it to both outspeed a wide host of Pokemon and set up Substitutes before getting hit by moves such as Toxic or Thunder Wave. The remaining 120 points are slotted into Defense to allow Vaporeon to better survive physical attacks. This specific set-up leaves Vaporeon slightly more specially defensive than physically defensive, but its high HP can let it comfortably survive a wide range of attacks nonetheless. A Sub-passing Vaporeon splashes well into a variety of teams and works best to protect a set-up sweeper and give them the turn they need to start their sweep. Rather than having specific teammates that work best, Sub-Pass Vaporeon enables situational counterplay by either predicting moves and then Baton Passing into an advantageous situation, or away from a disadvantageous one.</p>


    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Due to Vaporeon's large movepool, checks and counters can vary wildly depending on which moves Vaporeon is or isn't using. Set-up sweepers are hard-pressed to find something better than a Vaporeon to set up against, unless that Vaporeon lands a Toxic / Haze / Roar, or manages to burn a physical set-up sweeper with Scald. Even if Vaporeon Baton Passes out, the opposing Pokemon can still get a free buff / attack in. A Quiver Dance sweeper such as Volcarona or Vivillon can easily set up and either shrug off the incoming Scald or enjoy the unopposed boost when they switch out to something else. With access to both Wish and Baton Pass, Vaporeon is notoriously hard to properly 'check', as it specializes more in supporting the next Pokemon to switch in after it, and less so in offensive focus.</p>

    <p>In general, most Grass-types can easily switch in on Vaporeon and either set up on it or outright kill it. Breloom, Venusaur, Roserade, Chesnaught, and Trevenant all have some way of boosting their stats, and the first three also carry a handy Toxic immunity. Rotom-W is also an easy counter, though its tendency to carry Volt Switch as its only Electric STAB usually prevents it from staying in long enough to KO Vaporeon on its own. Other speedy Electric-types, such as Jolteon, Galvantula, and Zapdos can simply soak up an incoming Toxic or Scald and 2HKO with their Electric STAB of choice. Opposing walls can also pose a problem, as Blissey can soak up Scalds for days, cleric away any burns or Toxics it may receive, and heal itself far beyond Vaporeon's capability to damage. Skarmory doesn't appreciate the burn from Scald, but is immune to Toxic, and has little issue with Roosting away damage it would receive on the switch. Similarly, Ferrothorn doesn't like getting burned, but STAB Power Whip, a Toxic immunity, and access to Leech Seed make it a threat nonetheless.</p>
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
  2. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    (Change log)
    • Added a second moveset (3 attacks + BP/Rest)
    • Protect listed as a potential move in the first moveset (If I can't trust a guy named 'bobbyvaporeon' with Vaporeon movesets, who could I trust?)
    • Made changes per Somalia / PK Gaming / Menshay
    • Stopped caring about change log
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  3. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    I'd list Protect in Additional Comments in set one, as it allows Vaporeon to stall even more and get free wish healing.
  4. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    Of course, I'm open for any more suggestions.
    • Should I go into more detail about possible hazing/phazing sets?
    • Are there any formatting issues that I'm not aware of?
    • Anything else required of me?
  5. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA Lonely Wanderer
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    -The reason why it is better to leave this preview as a skeleton pre-QC check is to save time for yourself and others, so please if you can do that.
    -The first set should not have Baton Pass as a primary move. That would be used when Vaporeon is a dedicated Baton Passer. Therefore the first set should be....

    <p>Vaporeon @ Leftovers<br />
    Ability: Water Absorb<br />
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD <br />
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)<br />
    - Wish<br />
    - Scald<br />
    - Protect / Roar<br />
    - Toxic / Ice Beam</p>

    -Don't mention unreleased Pokemon (Jellicent etc.)
    -Add Blissey, Roserade, Rotom-W as well as Trevenant as counters.
    -An offensive set won't be as useful as gen 5 simply due to the nerf in Rain, and what seperated Vaporeon from other offensive Water-types was the fact that it could nab Hydration Rests. This generation you have better Pokemon to perform that role. I feel this can be AC material. However, I will let other QC members weigh in on this so don't remove it yet. If it somehow is agreed that an offensive set should be there, then by all means make rest the primary move in the 4th slot and not Baton Pass.
    -I feel that a dedicated Baton Passer set should be up there seeing as Vaporeon still continues to be a staple on BP teams.

    Apart from that good work!
    Princess Bubblegum likes this.
  6. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    You weren't supposed to write this up. In the future, please keep the analysis in skeleton form until you receive 2 QC stamps.

    Your overview needs to be a to more focused. Mentions of irrelevant moves choices (Aqua Ring, Shadow Ball, etc) don't really benefit the reader. Try to keep it simple and straightforward. (I would remove the first sentence in the pros & cons section) I'd mention that Vaporeon has the skillset to deal with some of top threats, such as Blaziken, Talonflame, Azumarill, etc. Of course, makes sure to stress in the set comments that can directly switch into these threats, nor can it beat it if they've boosted, but it's still a check.

    Other things:
    • I agree with Somalia's set.
    • I don't think the offensive rain sweeper set is viable. Rain sweeper slots are extremely limited, and I don't see a player wasting it on a Pokemon as slow as Vaporeon.
    • Remove all mentions of unreleased Pokemon.
  7. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    SOMALIA / PK Gaming: Baton Pass does make for a niche move on a Wish support Vaporeon set (given Vaporeon's low speed, it's able to Wish, tank a hit, and then Baton Pass into a freshly-healed check/counter for the opposition), but I'll agree that niche isn't enough to make it into an OU Analysis. I'll modify that set. As for the offensive set, I'm personally divided on having an offensive 'mon that can take a few hits and deliver a fair bit of coverage. From what I can briefly think of before my lunch break, Ghost/Ice/Water hits all mono-types for Neutral at worst, and is resisted by Water/Dark and Water/Normal. However, the nerf to Rain hampers its ability to fire off boosted Scalds/Hydro Pumps. But, rain isn't entirely necessary, as it can just run Water Absorb and forgo Rest. I'd like to see what more people say about it before I axe it.

    And I have most of the changes written up now, but I still need to finalize some stuff. I haven't ignored your input!

    (edit: Made the aforementioned changes)
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013
  8. Menshay

    Menshay

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    The introduction mentions Heal Bell, but unless something changed it's still a gen4/5 tutor move.
  9. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    I haven't seen any testing confirm Heal Bell, so I've axed it. Thanks!
  10. Namso

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    Offensive Vaporeon isn't worth it. It's no better than the whole slew of other rain Pokemon available and, like PK said, I don't see anyone wasting an open slot on something that really can't be used offensively to good effect. Vaporeon is naturally a support Pokemon, and it does that best, so I would remove that set. I also do not agree with the moveset for the defensive set. I recommend this:

    Wish
    Protect
    Scald
    Toxic / Roar / Ice Beam

    Vaporeon needs Protect to make Wish work better. It's not like Togekiss or Jirachi that bank on paraflinch hax to act as a pseudo-Protect or like Blissey and Clefable that pair it with Softboiled. It's simply not good without Protect and I find it too risky to use Wish without it, given Vaporeon actually has no means to consistently guarantee it delivers. Scald is self-explanatory. Last slot can go to either Toxic to cripple the Pokemon it walls and deter its switch-ins, Roar to phaze out boosting sweepers such as Aegislash and Gyarados (it works really well on Vaporeon from my experience), or Ice Beam for the abundant Dragon-, Grass-, and Flying-types.
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  11. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    Removed the offensive Vaporeon set, and edited the defense set a tad to make a middle ground of sorts.

    Keep 'em coming! (or I guess I could set it as ready for QC?)
  12. Namso

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    Fair enough, but I'm still wondering why Substitute is even there. What's the point of it? Wish + Substitute is a terrible combination. Your reasoning to use it doesn't convince me either. I don't know what you mean by "soak up damage," as Vaporeon is slow such that it will take a hit first before you Sub, thus forcing you to Wish at that point while your Sub breaks and you get hit again out in the open. Blocking status is a given, but you can run Protect to scout for such status and bring in the appropriate Pokemon to take it or run cleric support. It's basically just Toxic that's super crippling, but it's really easy to soak that with something else.
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  13. Okuu

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    Ah, that was actually a vestige from when I had Baton Pass in the set (and only had one supportive/defensive set). I'm not seeing much of a reason to keep it!
  14. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA Lonely Wanderer
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    Baton Pass Vaporeon has to have Acid Armor as its main move. It is the best Pokemon to set up vs ttar and co. Once that is made

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  15. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    I'm trying to think of a better example than Tyranitar to set up Acid Armor against, as DDtaR is still a thing, and generally, the opponent's set up is going to be more dangerous than yours. Tyrantrum / Pinsir / Heracross, perhaps?
  16. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    Something like non-SD Lucario would be pretty good bait, as would Choice Band Scizor, provided it isn't U-turning.

    Failing that, Vaporeon is likely cause some switches, so any free turn isn't wasted as long as you're doing something.
  17. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    Fun fact: 248 HP / 252 Def Bold Vaporeon variants can potentially force 3HKO's from 252 SpAtk / Timid variants of Mewtwo-Y using Psystrike.

    [edit] I also followed PK Gaming's lead and temporarily removed the html formatting.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Remove any move that doesn't have a slash on a main set. Also, re-add the HTML formatting.

    Remove this from the cons:

    As there aren't any common Infiltrator or Sound-based move users that can hurt Vaporeon.

    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 2/3
  19. Okuu

    Okuu Applications Support, Pettan Co.
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    Actually, now that I think of it, you're partially right. A 252 SpA Noivern using Boomburst would fail to hit 30% on a typical Vaporeon. However, none of that would be directed at the Substitute, which is actually desirable if you're planning on passing the Sub to something else. But even so, the Noivern or whatever would be still be able to ignore the switch-in's Sub. I think I'll just axe that line.
  20. Okuu

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    Any other alterations / additions / removals I need to consider?

    From what I've seen of playtesting, Acid Armor is incredibly important. The effects of the nerf to the popular SpAtk moves have led to an increase in the amount of physical attackers, and throwing a massive Defensive boost up (whether it be for Vaporeon's own safety, or to be Baton Pass'd elsewhere) is rarely ever a poor choice.
  21. Suichimo

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    I'd like to ask why all the sets have 248 HP instead of 252? Is it a Leftovers number? The reason I ask is because it puts you at 463 HP instead of 464, for 116 HP subs. And if you're going for 115 HP subs, shouldn't you just use 236 HP EVs?
  22. Okuu

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    Toxic / Poison / Burn / residual hazards are going to be annoyances for a Vaporeon, so you're going to want an odd amount of HP so that you can buy yourself an extra potential turn of life. It might be doable with a smaller HP EV total?
  23. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA Lonely Wanderer
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    You're fine. Just pm a QC member to stamp this since it has been a while.
  24. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Not a huge deal, but it's a good idea to just max HP on the Baton Pass set, since that lets Vaporeon make 116 HP, rather than 115 HP, substitutes.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  25. alexwolf

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    Replace Yawn with Scald.

    This should be the last pro, remove the rest of the sentence.

    Remove those two paragraphs, you don't need written paragraphs for pros and cons.

    Vaporeon can't 3HKO Aegislash, at least not 252 HP versions. Either be more specific about the set you are talking about or remove Aegislash.

    Explain the EV spread and add some teammates for both sets.

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