Conkeldurr [QC: 3/3][GP 0/2]

[Steel-Claw-Kingler]

It doesn't learn Bullet Punch.

Uuuuops, I was reading learnset of another pokemon, sorry ^^"

 

[JR]

Does Conkeldurr learn Ice Punch via breeding? I know you can't do it this gen but can I take a tutored Conkeldurr from a previous gen and breed it with Conkeldurr in X/Y to get it? I really don't wanna have a hard time breeding for one of my fave Pokemon.

 

[Colonel M]

Only 5th Gen Move Tutor. Same goes for Knock Off and all of its elemental punches.

 

[Imanalt]

so your evs on the assault vest set are inefficient. It is true on basically any pokemon that running 0/0/252 evs will give more special bulk than 252/0/0, but you lose more physical bulk than you gain special bulk. Assault vest mitigates the loss here, but it still does exist somewhat. Especially as a tank, maximizing overall bulk is better than just upping one stat, and so the spread that maximizes overall bulk (per x-act def evs calculator http://pokestudio.altervista.org/defevs.php ) is 200 hp and 56 sdef.

 

[Colonel M]

so your evs on the assault vest set are inefficient. It is true on basically any pokemon that running 0/0/252 evs will give more special bulk than 252/0/0, but you lose more physical bulk than you gain special bulk. Assault vest mitigates the loss here, but it still does exist somewhat. Especially as a tank, maximizing overall bulk is better than just upping one stat, and so the spread that maximizes overall bulk (per x-act def evs calculator http://pokestudio.altervista.org/defevs.php ) is 200 hp and 56 sdef.

I wouldn't exactly call it inefficient - rather a preference is chosen.

Random example - if we really wanted to maximize Conkeldurr's bulk the spread would already be inefficient as Attack investment is being made instead.

Still I think the one thing is taking Special hits is a bit more important than physical hits. I mean if I put the preference for a neutral nature it actually suggests going Impish (which is crazy since we're going Adamant). I'll calculate it out and see the differences though. I guess even though taking both sides are great I personally had a huge preference for taking as much SpA abuse as possible.

 

[Imanalt]

I wouldn't exactly call it inefficient - rather a preference is chosen.

Random example - if we really wanted to maximize Conkeldurr's bulk the spread would already be inefficient as Attack investment is being made instead.

Still I think the one thing is taking Special hits is a bit more important than physical hits. I mean if I put the preference for a neutral nature it actually suggests going Impish (which is crazy since we're going Adamant). I'll calculate it out and see the differences though. I guess even though taking both sides are great I personally had a huge preference for taking as much SpA abuse as possible.

no, its not inefficient to run max attack, all that says is that one point of attack is more useful than one point of either defense, which is almost certainly true because you should attack roughly as often as you get hit, and every attack should come from your attack, but not every attack coming in is the same. the question is purely a matter of how to most efficiently use the bulk evs available...

 

[Colonel M]

no, its not inefficient to run max attack, all that says is that one point of attack is more useful than one point of either defense, which is almost certainly true because you should attack roughly as often as you get hit, and every attack should come from your attack, but not every attack coming in is the same. the question is purely a matter of how to most efficiently use the bulk evs available...

Which is why I still question the validity of using your spread as well. Though Conkeldurr's capability of taking physical hits increases; however, taking special hits also decreases.

Physical hit random example:

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 156-184 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 156-184 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Special:

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 109-129 (27.1 - 32.1%) --2.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 115-136 (28.6 - 33.9%) --52% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 91-108 (25.9 - 30.7%) --guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

So far seems okay because if you're okay with 3HKOes it is solid, but taking special attacks (part of the appeal to the set) is harder. Im going to do more calcs though because I want to make sure more with benchmarks than arbitrary balancing of defenses.

 

[Colonel M]

Okay so calculations with the 200 HP / 56 SpD for random threats:

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 141-166 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
By the way, +2 Sacred Sword and +2 Shadow Sneak will 2HKO 200 HP Conk.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 111-132 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

No real change; especially since 200 HP Conkeldurr will lose to Swords Dance.

4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 46-55 (11.4 - 13.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 122-144 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 46-54 (13.1 - 15.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 96-114 (27.3 - 32.4%) -- 5.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Genesect U-turn barely does anything too different. Download-boosted Flamethrower and stuff will usually 3HKO 200 HP / 56 SpD Conkeldurr whereas 0 HP / 244 SpD Conkeldurr can avoid a 3HKO most of the time.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 294-346 (83.7 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah... no. If you're lucky and it doesn't get a boost...

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 296-350 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 294-346 (83.7 - 98.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So in this scenario this is where 200 HP Conk would pull a slight win. But let's just double check Nasty Plot.

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 322-380 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 256-302 (72.9 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

However, the near-max SpD allows Conkeldurr to guarantee surviving the +2 Flash Cannon. To be fair the 200 HP / 56 SpD is only OHKOed 12.5% of the time. But meh.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 171-202 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 169-201 (48.1 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I don't think Conkeldurr should really try taking Garchomp - +2 Garchomp OHKOes even the 200 HP variant most of the time.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 175-207 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 138-164 (39.3 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

This would be one situation where the max SpD Conkeldurr wins. Moving on.

Versus Scizor the 200 HP Conkeldurr has a lot of advantages on the other Conkeldurr versus the near-max SpD. Pretty much Choice Band U-turn is a 4HKO, Bullet Punch can 2HKO only 28.9% of the time with Stealth Rock, and Superpower fails to 2HKO.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 193-228 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 192-226 (54.7 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Eh...

4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 129-153 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 127-151 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Also eh...

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 109-129 (27.1 - 32.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 108-127 (30.7 - 36.1%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

200 HP Conk can dodge a 3HKO.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 144-169 (35.9 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 142-168 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Really Choice Band Tyranitar is a rare sight for some reason - but let's face it is this rocket science?

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 229-271 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 229-270 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 115-136 (28.6 - 33.9%) -- 52% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 91-108 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 149-177 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 118-140 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So the main difference here is max SpD Conkeldurr taking a 4HKO from Shadow Ball Gengar.

I'm not really going to bother with X unless it's with the bulky set. +1 Flare Blitz OHKOes even 200 HP Conkeldurr. Zard Y should really be a no-go either.

252 SpA Espeon Psyshock vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 272-324 (67.8 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Espeon Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 270-320 (76.9 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 258-306 (64.3 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 204-242 (58.1 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If Life Orb Alakazam has a slim chance of OHKOing max SpD Conkeldurr with Psyshock. Though I think the majority are Sash anyway.

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 256-303 (63.8 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 255-300 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

We're not going to bother with regular Gyarados. Many would carry Bounce.

252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 187-222 (46.6 - 55.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Conkeldurr: 186-220 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Choice Band I think doesn't quite OHKO either.

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 168-198 (41.8 - 49.3%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 134-158 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Slim chance to 2HKO, but guaranteed with Max SpD Conk.

252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 118-141 (29.4 - 35.1%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Goodra Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 94-112 (26.7 - 31.9%) -- 1.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Fairly relevant I would say.

By the way Choice Specs Psyshock OHKOes 200 HP Conkeldurr. I don't know if you want me to go through this one.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 164-192 (40.8 - 47.8%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 130-153 (37 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Honestly 6.6% is pretty slim. And the majority carry Leftovers at the moment. So:

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 126-148 (31.4 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 100-118 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 35.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

So it can 4HKO this way.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 140-165 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 110-133 (31.3 - 37.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 172-203 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 136-161 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 108-127 (26.9 - 31.6%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 85-102 (24.2 - 29%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Life Orb Hydro Pump is the only relevant thing to note.

That's about some of the Top 50 Threats. So in overview:

- 200 HP Conk is best against Scizor, Gliscor, and a few others.
- Max SpD Conkeldurr can see 3-4HKOes on some very threatening Life Orb special Pokemon - and avoids a 2HKO from Greninja Hydro Pump.

So really that's just some of the examples to help paint the picture. Landorus-T was omitted but the calculation is above. So IMO finding a spread that avoids a 2HKO on Landorus-T's Earthquake and a 2HKO from Greninja's Life Orb Hydro Pump. This leaves us with something like...

108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 SpD

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 110 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 156-184 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 110 HP / 148 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 153-183 (40.4 - 48.4%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That's... about the closest I can get to it without sacrificing Attack. Sort of. Sorry I'm really tired.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

It's also worth noting that, with HP investment, Conkeldurr heals a lower percentage of its health with Drain Punch. For this reason, along with the fact that the 200 HP / 56 SDef spread isn't significantly more efficient, I think the present spread on the AV set is fine as is.

EDIT: 1000th post, which coincidentally falls on the first day of my 4th year on Smogon. Yay :)

 

[Colonel M]

By the way I am not opposed to adding the 200 HP / 56 SpD spread into the Set Details, though arguably 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 SpD accomplishes something close to balancing defenses while having close benchmarks. Wonder if sacrificing Atk would be worth it in this scenario to close the % chance of 2HKOes on those two potential threats.

 

[Colonel M]

If I can get a second check on this that'd be great. Conk is another high priority Pokemon and with understanding how the analyses work now after writing Gyarados I think I'm good with this one too.

 

[ColtCababa]

Life Orb and Drain Punch are counterproductive? I don't understand why they would, as Drain Punch can often times recover any and all Life Orb recoil.

 

[alexwolf]

Add Conkeldurr's low Speed as a con, as it's actually its biggest one. Also, add that its best set (AV) struggles to break through defensive teams and the other ones are not that good atm anyway (all those in overview obviously).

Stress Mega Venu as one of the best counters to this thing, as it's immune to Knock Off. Same goes for Mega Mawile, which can initially weaken Conk with Intimidate and doesn't take too much from Drain Punch with max HP, while being immune to Knock Off, Outspeeding Conk, and OHKOing it with Play Rough.

QC APPROVED 2/3

 

[Colonel M]

Life Orb and Drain Punch are counterproductive? I don't understand why they would, as Drain Punch can often times recover any and all Life Orb recoil.

It is physically impossible to recover all of Life Orb recoil as, after using Drain Punch, you still suffer from Life Orb recoil. In a way it is slightly counterproductive but not entirely. I will word this better when written.

 

[Alphanex20]

Could Stone Miss or Rock Slide merit a mention on the AV set? Both let you hit Mega Charizard Y on the switch (who otherwise walls and 2HKOes you). Yes you can OHKO it with Knock Off + Mach Punch, but you need rocks for that (and Mega Charizard Y almost always comes with Defog/Rapid Spin support these days). Talonflame is in the same boat (but not nearly as hard to counter).

EDIT: Also wanted to say that Rock Slide has the added benefit of making people think you are Sheer Force, FWIW.

 

[TheTraininator]

This is just my opinion, but I think that Iron Fist should be slashed before Sheer Force on the all-out attacker set, as it not only benefits all the moves on the set (bar Earthquake) as opposed to Sheer Force only buffing a couple, but it keeps your secondary effects too, and I think a buff on all your moves plus secondary effects is a better payoff than a minor increase in power to your coverage moves, no buff to your STABs, and no secondary effects.

 

[Jaroda]

This is just my opinion, but I think that Iron Fist should be slashed before Sheer Force on the all-out attacker set, as it not only benefits all the moves on the set (bar Earthquake) as opposed to Sheer Force only buffing a couple, but it keeps your secondary effects too, and I think a buff on all your moves plus secondary effects is a better payoff than a minor increase in power to your coverage moves, no buff to your STABs, and no secondary effects.

You're saying a 10% chance to freeze is better than a permanent 10% power buff as well as negating Life Orb damage?

 

[Colonel M]

The only reason to use Iron Fist is because you want to either boost Drain Punch or use Hammer Arm (applicable in Trick Room). Even then you likely would want to use a different item with Iron Fist since Life Orb recoil can get out of hand. The secondary effects from all of the Sheer Force boosted moves are negligible due to Conkeldurr's low Speed and their abysmal chance of activating.

Could Stone Miss or Rock Slide merit a mention on the AV set? Both let you hit Mega Charizard Y on the switch (who otherwise walls and 2HKOes you). Yes you can OHKO it with Knock Off + Mach Punch, but you need rocks for that (and Mega Charizard Y almost always comes with Defog/Rapid Spin support these days). Talonflame is in the same boat (but not nearly as hard to counter).
EDIT: Also wanted to say that Rock Slide has the added benefit of making people think you are Sheer Force, FWIW.

Thunder Punch does a number to Zard Y on the switch (252+ Atk Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 234-276 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and if they dare run Hasty they risk a 25% chance of a OHKO. Most Zard Ys don't pack Roost anymore since having Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast, or Earthquake is too crucial (and even Air Slash to a lesser extent). Still, I have no issue mentioning Rock Slide in the Moves section if only because Zard Y is a popular threat and regular Charizard still can take negligible damage from Drain Punch (252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 87-103 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO).

 

[TheTraininator]

You're saying a 10% chance to freeze is better than a permanent 10% power buff as well as negating Life Orb damage?

Oh, right, forgot about the negating Life Orb recoil thing. I wasn't saying that the Freeze chance was better, I was saying that the minor coverage increase in power did not justify lowering the power of your spammable STABs, with keeping the side effects being a nice bonus, but the Life Orb recoil loss on boosted moves is pretty important, so I withdraw my initial point.

 

[JR]

Oh, right, forgot about the negating Life Orb recoil thing. I wasn't saying that the Freeze chance was better, I was saying that the minor coverage increase in power did not justify lowering the power of your spammable STABs, with keeping the side effects being a nice bonus, but the Life Orb recoil loss on boosted moves is pretty important, so I withdraw my initial point.

Even without the Life Orb recoil being negated Sheer Force would still be better than Iron Fist. As Jaroda had stated, a permanent 10% power boost is better than a 10% chance at status. That 10% is far from being minor.

 

[Alphanex20]

The only reason to use Iron Fist is because you want to either boost Drain Punch or use Hammer Arm (applicable in Trick Room). Even then you likely would want to use a different item with Iron Fist since Life Orb recoil can get out of hand. The secondary effects from all of the Sheer Force boosted moves are negligible due to Conkeldurr's low Speed and their abysmal chance of activating.

Thunder Punch does a number to Zard Y on the switch (252+ Atk Conkeldurr Thunder Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 234-276 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and if they dare run Hasty they risk a 25% chance of a OHKO. Most Zard Ys don't pack Roost anymore since having Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast, or Earthquake is too crucial (and even Air Slash to a lesser extent). Still, I have no issue mentioning Rock Slide in the Moves section if only because Zard Y is a popular threat and regular Charizard still can take negligible damage from Drain Punch (252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 87-103 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 7.3% chance to 3HKO).

Nice, didn't think of ThunderPunch. That is probably better since you can hit Gyara hard even if it is a Mega (though I doubt it will OHKO, even with Mach Punch factored in, without rocks). The only thing I could think of Rock Slide being better for is Volcarona (which no one uses since Talonflame is a thing), MegaZard X (who you can obliterate on the switch with TPunch before it Mega-Evolves) and Talonflame (who isn't that hard to have a counter to anyway). Also you can technically OHKO any MegaZard with TPunch since Mach Punch will do around 10-15% to Y and at least 20% to X (more if you are Iron Fist or have Guts active) and finish it off (and Charizard literally knows no priority move). I also have been questioning Knock Off as of late, since the only real thing I use it on is Aegislash (who is not OHKOed and 90% of the time has a Weakness Policy nowadays). Sure it hits Gengar and Latias (among others) but Gengar really cannot hurt you and Latias is not OHKOed by Knock Off and can use Psyshock to ignore your Assault Vest. I also found that it makes you setup bait for Mega Scizor/Mega Lucario (who also packs Justified, on a scarier note).

 

[JR]

I also have been questioning Knock Off as of late, since the only real thing I use it on is Aegislash (who is not OHKOed and 90% of the time has a Weakness Policy nowadays). Sure it hits Gengar and Latias (among others) but Gengar really cannot hurt you and Latias is not OHKOed by Knock Off and can use Psyshock to ignore your Assault Vest. I also found that it makes you setup bait for Mega Scizor/Mega Lucario (who also packs Justified, on a scarier note).

You don't just use Knock Off on those that are weak to it, though. It also denies things of Leftovers recovery, neuters those that are reliant on items such as Choice users. Knock Off is a beautiful beautiful move. Also, not all Lucarios are physically oriented. Many have found success in special sets, which can be taken care of by Conk.

 

[Fiddlebro]

has anyone considered running low sweep on the sheer force set? That's what I've been using on it over drain punch and its great, deals huge chunks of damage. Typically hit something with low sweep and finish with a mach punch. i still prefer guts conk the most though.

 

[TheTraininator]

Even without the Life Orb recoil being negated Sheer Force would still be better than Iron Fist. As Jaroda had stated, a permanent 10% power boost is better than a 10% chance at status. That 10% is far from being minor.

It's better on the moves BOOSTED by it, but the important thing is that Drain Punch and Mach Punch get a 20% boost by Iron Fist, but not by Sheer Force, while the punches + Poison Jab still get a buff, so without the fact that Life Orb isn't factored in on coverage, it's still not superior imo, considering that the 20% buff to your STABs is worth the 10% loss to your coverage.

 

[Colonel M]

Again the ultimate problem is by running Iron Fist and using Life Orb you will always take recoil. And being bluntly honest - Hammer Arm suddenly becomes a little more viable than Drain Punch with Iron Fist because it allows Conkeldurr to hit harder than most Fighting - types with a 120 BP move (and without Def / SpD drops nor Atk drops which is pivotal against most bulky Fighting - type Pokemon).