1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Conkeldurr (Status Orb) (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by waterwarrior, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. waterwarrior

    waterwarrior

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,551
    skelly here (open)

    Why this set deserves to be on-site:
    -Conkeldurr's most common secondary set, with Flame Orb just as common as Choice Band, with Toxic Orb pushing it other the edge
    -Very useful late-game cleaner
    -Instead of hoping to catch a Guts boost from an opposing Will-o-Wisp or Thunder Wave, this set will always get a Guts boost
    -No problems with coverage like the Bulk Up set
    -Does not need a turn of set-up like the Bulk Up and SubPunch sets do
    -Hard to wall, as it has all the power of the CB set with the ability to switch moves
    -Completely ignores Breloom and its Spore, something very few attackers without Sub can accomplish

    Damage calculations, all including the Status Orb boost:
    Drain Punch vs. 248/0 Scizor: 62.1-73.47%
    Drain Punch vs. 236/252+ Breloom: 55.6-65.6%
    Drain Punch vs. 252/0 Conkeldurr: 54.95-64.85%
    Drain Punch vs. 252/4 Ferrothorn: 96.31-113.35% (75% to OHKO)
    Drain Punch vs. 252/252+ Ferrothorn: 72.44-86%
    Drain Punch vs. 252/0 Jirachi: 52.72-62.4%
    Drain Punch vs. 252/252+ Skarmory: 36.23-43.1%

    Mach Punch vs. 4/0 Terrakion: 77.8-91.7%

    Facade vs. 236/252+ Breloom: 69-81.25%
    Facade vs. 252/184+ Gliscor: 48.6-57.3%
    Facade vs. 252/128 Dragonite (Multiscale activated): 31.4-37%
    Facade vs. same Dragonite (Multiscale down): 63-74%
    Facade vs. 156/96 Gyarados (after Intimidate): 51.6-60.8%
    Facade vs. 252/252 Volcarona: 73-86.1%
    Facade vs. 252/252+ Slowbro: 45-53%

    All Payback calcs calculated on switch-in
    Payback vs 4/0 Gengar: 108.8-128.75%
    Payback vs. 252/224+ Jellicent: 43.56-51.5%

    Additional Comments:
    -HP is not maxed out to drop the damage from burn from 51 per turn to 50, which more than makes up for the loss of 7 max HP.
    -Drain Punch serves as a balance to the status' recoil, as well as an incredibly strong attack
    -Mach Punch is amazing priority, able to deal damage to secure the Orb's activation, and just a great attack in general
    -Payback hits the multitude of Psychic types like Celebi and Lati@s
    -Facade offers great neutral coverage, and has very high base power, actually outdamaging Drain Punch
    -The choice of Toxic or Flame Orb is personal preference. If you plan to hit and run, use Toxic Orb, but if you plan on staying, use Flame Orb.
    -Stone Edge can be used to nail Flying types, such as Nite and Mence, incredibly hard
    -Hammer Arm and Superpower are options for their sheer power, but Drain and Mach Punch are almost always superior options
    -Bulk Up can be used over Facade to have Drain/Mach Punch reach amazing power, but the loss of power from Facade means you miss out on a considerable amount of KO's if you can't set up.

    Teammates and Counters:
    -Like any offensive poke, hazards support is greatly appreciated
    -While not necessary, Rapid Spin support is nice to avoid Spikes
    -This set pairs well with Trick Room Reuniclus, as Conkeldurr's abysmal Speed allows it to wreck shop in Trick Room. Toxic Orb is recommended over Flame Orb if you are running TR, as you will probably be switching out after your 3 turns are up
    -With Facade, Conkeldurr is able to smash past Reuniclus, but still struggles with Gliscor, Slowbro, Tangrowth, and Hippowdon.
    -Skarmory isn't exactly easy to deal with, but Conkeldurr will leave a dent in its carapace.
    -Rain Dragonite, with SR down, can come in on anything and OHKO with Hurricane
    -Rain-boosted attackers, such as Starmie and Rotom-W, can't switch in, but can check Conkeldurr.

    [​IMG]

    [SET]
    name: Status Orb
    move 1: Drain Punch
    move 2: Mach Punch
    move 3: Payback
    move 4: Facade
    item: Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
    ability: Guts
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Bulk Up and Choice Band Conkeldurr have to hope that the opponent will accidentally burn, poison, or paralyze them, all while still being susceptible to Spore from Breloom. However, Conkeldurr can guarantee a Guts boost and possess an immunity to sleep by equipping a Status Orb, easily allowing it to smash through the opposition after the first turn it is sent out. Conkeldurr can easily revenge kill a weakened threat with Mach Punch or come in on attacks like Tyranitar's Crunch in order to safely activate Flame Orb or Toxic Orb, then begin to hammer away. Drain Punch, while actually not the strongest attack Conkeldurr has on this set, is the only way to keep Conkeldurr alive for a long period of time while still hitting hard, as the residual damage from a burn or poison will quickly eat away at Conkeldurr's HP. Mach Punch can not only aid in allowing Conkeldurr to safely receive the boost from the Status Orb, but score hits on faster threats that would otherwise deal massive damage to Conkeldurr, such as Terrakion. Payback is the main way any Conkeldurr set will get around Ghost- and Psychic-types, such as Gengar, Latias, or Latios. Facade is the strongest attack on this set, and is able to surprise and deal massive damage to threats such as Gliscor and Reuniclus, who would otherwise completely wall this set.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread allows Conkeldurr to drop the residual damage of Burn from 51 HP per turn to 50 HP per turn, which will more than make up for the loss of 7 max HP in the long run, especially with the small boost in Special Defense the 36 SpD EV's give. The choice of Flame Orb or Toxic Orb ultimately depends on how you decide to use Conkeldurr. If Conkeldurr is being used as a mid-game sweeper and will be given the job of breaking the opponent's walls, Flame Orb is the best choice. If Conkeldurr is being used as a late-game cleaner or as a hit-and-run attacker of sorts, where Conkeldurr will not be on the battlefield for more than three turns in a row, Toxic Orb is the best choice.</p>

    <p>Like the Bulk Up set, Status Orb Conkeldurr has a few other moves it can effectively use. Stone Edge can be used to nail Flying-types such as Dragonite or Salamence, as well as Volcarona, harder than any other move could. Hammer Arm and Superpower are far more powerful than Drain Punch or Mach Punch, but the loss of either desperately needed recovery or hard-hitting priority can spell doom for Conkeldurr in many situations, so the two are inferior options. Finally, Bulk Up can be used to send Conkeldurr's Attack stat to even higher levels, hitting an insane 936 Atk stat after only one Bulk Up, but the residual damage from the Status Orb makes it a lot harder for Conkeldurr to find an opportunity to set up the Bulk Ups safely. Furthermore, the only moveslot that can really be replaced with Bulk Up is Facade, but Facade just has so much raw power (as shown in the below calcs) that it is almost too good to ever pass up. For example, see what this move does to defensive Pokemon of the metagame:</p>

    <ul class="damage calculation">
    <li>Facade vs. 236/252+ Breloom: 69-81.25%</li>
    <li>Facade vs. 252/184+ Gliscor: 48.6-57.3%</li>
    <li>Facade vs. 252/128 Dragonite (Multiscale activated): 31.4-37%</li>
    <li>Facade vs. same Dragonite (Multiscale down): 63-74%</li>
    <li>Facade vs. 156/96 Gyarados (after Intimidate): 51.6-60.8%</li>
    <li>Facade vs. 252/252 Volcarona: 73-86.1%</li>
    <li>Facade vs. 252/252+ Slowbro: 45-53%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Regarding teammates, Status Orb Conkeldurr does not require much support to be used effectively, but can still gain major benefits from it. Arguably the best partner to Conkeldurr is Trick Room Reuniclus (offensive or not), as Trick Room can turn Conkeldurr into an incredibly fast sweeper for 3 turns, where the opponent will majorly struggle to find anything that can even attempt to stop Conkeldurr without taking a major hit. If Conkeldurr is being used in Trick Room, a Brave nature with a 0 Speed IV can be used to make Conkeldurr even "faster" under Trick Room. Toxic Orb would also be the preferred item in that scenario, as Conkeldurr will only be under the effects of Trick Room for three turns and will most likely switch out afterwards. Pokemon that can supply entry hazards, such as Deoxys-D or Ferothorn, also make excellent partners to Conkeldurr, as they allow Conkeldurr to turn many 2HKOs into easy OHKOs, making it even harder to stop. Rapid Spin support from the likes of Forretress is also quite useful, as it allows Conkeldurr to avoid damage from Spikes, which are especially harmful to the Status Orb set. Even with the Guts boost, Conkeldurr still struggles to break physical walls such as Skarmory, Gliscor, and Slowbro, so special attackers like Rotom-W or Jolteon, who can easily muscle past the aforementioned counters, make excellent partners. Furthermore, Conkeldurr's less-than-stellar Special Defense stat leaves it at the mercy of Pokemon like specially-based Dragonite, Starmie, and Rotom-W, especially when Rain is in effect, so dedicated special walls like Chansey, Blissey, and Ferrothorn make great partners (although the first two must watch out for the occasional Psyshock from Starmie).</p>
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Definitely Facade over Stone Edge. Facade provides awesome neutral coverage that even nails Gliscor. It only misses out on Ghosts, which Payback comes in handy. You really don't need the coverage of Stone Edge with Facade under Conkeldurr's belt. Bulk Up is still useful to break certain physical walls like Skarmory or Hippowdon. Here's what I'm thinking:

    Name: Status Orb
    Move 1: Drain Punch
    Move 2: Mach Punch
    Move 3: Payback
    Move 4: Facade / Bulk Up
    Item: Toxic Orb/ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 4 SpD

    You could probably note that this Conkeldurr pairs well with OTR Reuniclus, since this Conkeldurr can wreak havoc under Trick Room.
  3. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,308
    Seems legit but needs some calcs!
  4. waterwarrior

    waterwarrior

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,551
    ^editing in those suggestions as we speak

    EDIT: they're all in there now
  5. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    RU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    4,013
    if you decide to put facade over stone edge, mention spiritomb in teammates/counters? payback doesnt do to much to it as spiritomb is slower than conk, and its immune to its other moves.

    havent played OU in a while, dont know if spiritomb still has a niche :(
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Spiritomb is virtually non-existant in OU, but Sableye exists, which is a 2HKO by Payback.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    7,211
    Facade should definitely be slashed in the main set but i am not sure where...
    Without SE, Conk will have troubles with fliers and without Payback with Psychics and Ghosts. But Facade is your best option against many pokes, such as Gliscor, Heracross, Toxicroak,Tentacruel,Landorus,Starmie on the switch, and Lati@s on the switch(you wouldn't stay in after the switch anyway).
    Also Facade is the strongest move in the set, outdamaging even Drain Punch!
  8. waterwarrior

    waterwarrior

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,551
    @Molk, sorry, but Pocket's right. You never see a Tomb in OU
    @alexwolf, i was adding that in while you posted that

    @Chillarmy, you know what, you have a point. added.
  9. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    517
    "If a Pokemon is not common, it should not be mentioned at all" -- I'm confused by this logic. Spiritomb is at least usable in OU (not to mention that it has its own OU analysis), so I don't see how a single sentence mentioning it being a solid check to this set would hurt. It's important to mention checks and counters to a Pokemon if they can be used against said Pokemon, even if they're not particularly common. It's really like saying Kyogre "only loses to Palkia, BU Dialga, Nattorei, (sometimes) Chansey, and Grass Arceus" because Shedinja isn't common in Ubers. Also, Spiritomb gives this set the business, even if Stone Edge is present, due to Pressure. I personally think that it's worth mentioning at some point in "Teammates and Counters" and eventually in AC, if this set gets approved.
  10. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,267
    Except it's not even a solid check. What's it going to do in response? Its normal response to physical threats is Will-O-Wi... oh wait.

    Tomb is not only bad in OU, it's not even a good check, doubly so since it doesn't have recovery.
  11. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,158
    Yeah no objections here. Guts abuse Conkeldurr is the most common secondary set (definitely more common than subpunch and choice band) and its pretty good to boot.

    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  12. waterwarrior

    waterwarrior

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,551
    Tomb taken off Checks and Counters (sorry Molk and Chillarmy)
    PK Gaming is awesome

    @below:
    | 102 | Spiritomb | 3875 | 0.824% | 2992 | 0.763% |

    This.
  13. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    517
    Spiritomb -- being immune to 3/4 of this Conk's moveset -- can hammer away at Conkeldurr with Night Shade or Shadow Ball, both of which do 'enough' damage. Granted, Spiritomb sucks against Bulk Up variants, but with either status orb, Conkeldurr won't be able to tank Spiritomb's hits for long, let alone leave Spiritomb in a position where it can't Rest or Pain Split. Spiritomb is also the only Ghost-type that doesn't get maimed by a Guts Payback, which is worthy of at least a mention. Conkeldurr has immediate power now, as well as extra coverage with Facade, so the usual means of checking Conkeldurr will likely have changed. Quickly mentioning Spiritomb as a check gives anyone reading another good idea of what to look (out) for, when searching for what can put this particular set in its place -- not exactly the best of options, but it can work. Being a great option against Reuniclus and good spinblocker, as well as an 'ok' option against this set is enough to at least get a short sentence.

    EDIT: Right, so Lanturn should be removed from Starmie's list of checks and counters, because it's not relevant to the OU metagame. Golurk and Nidoqueen shouldn't be mentioned at all as Pokemon that can check Terrakion, because they're not commonly used. It's the OP's choice to include Pokemon such as Spiritomb in the analysis, but giving them the pass because they're not that common hurts a lot more than it helps. Mentioning generally crappy things such as Shedinja as a check to, say, CM Reuniclus is a terrible idea, and I would back down if it were the same case with Spiritomb, but it's not. Spiritomb has utility outside of preventing this set from getting out of control. I'm not proposing that Spiritomb be mentioned as a significant threat, but rather have it serve as something to base potential other checks and counters to this Conkeldurr on. I.E, mentioning something that can give this set problems (or does Conkeldurr have Magic Guard ?_?) will give those reading it an idea of how to check it though their own means. Moreover, it shows that Conkeldurr's usual checks and counters have changed at least a bit with the moveset change.

    "Without Bulk Up or Leftovers, Conkeldurr won't be able to survive for as long as usual, making Pokemon that can tank a few boosted attacks and hit Conkeldurr back for a sizable amount of damage, such as Spiritomb or Poison Heal Gliscor, are good options to use against this set as well. For that reason... blah blah blah" -- not exactly that ideal sentence, but this is what I meant. The Pokemon that I'd mentioned serve two completely different purposes, and check this Conkeldurr using similarly played, but overall different methods. Generalizing checks to this set filters out a lot of theorymon ("But wait, Dragonite can't tank a Guts Facade if SR is up, let alone more than once. Skarmory can't tank Drain Punches forever, either. Oh no, this thing is uncheckable."), which ultimately makes the set much easier to understand. This Conkeldurr is much more vulnerable to being stalled out, and there are many Pokemon that can do such a feat. Listing them all is asinine, but mentioning the better examples of Pokemon that can do so saves a lot of effort for the people contributing to this set, and more importantly, those reading it in with the intent of bettering their team.
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    Spiritomb is just not relevant to the OU metagame. It's like stating Lanturn as a counter to Rotom-W. If this was UU, then mentioning Spiritomb as a counter would be important, as Spiritomb has significantly more usage and influence on the metagame. But since this is an OU analysis, we don't need to mention obscure counters that players would most likely never face.
  15. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    764
    Calcs would be appreciate to deepen this set's understanding.
  16. waterwarrior

    waterwarrior

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,551
    They're there, between why the set should be on-site and additional comments O.o
  17. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,381
    I've been using this Conkledurr on my Trick Room team, and let me tell you, Facade is absolute annihilation! Once you click Facade, you click the insta-kill button. I think it should be noted that if this set is run on a TR team, Toxic Orb should be the primary choice since he will be sweeping in the 3 turn limit of TR, meaning he will pretty much always receive less damage.
  18. Husky

    Husky

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    344
    @your damage calcs: Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm quite sure that Payback's power isn't doubled anymore on the switch in 5th gen..
  19. waterwarrior

    waterwarrior

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,551
    @Pillsbury, comment added
    @Husky, you're certainly right, and that's what I was trying to show, that it hits really hard even though it is still only 50 BP.

    While I don't doubt Gengar's chances of survival (60/60 defenses don't lie), the calc on Jellicent looks a little off. Can someone confirm the calc? I'm using this, so it would be appreciated if it was from another source.
  20. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,238
    What EVs for Jellicent are you using? I use this calculator.
  21. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur GO GOOMY

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    611
    the calculations are correct, if you go first its rather weak.
    luckily jelly outspeeds you.
  22. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,683
    I know this probably detracts from the purpose of the set (ignores status by using your own status orb), but would Life Orb deserve some mention on this set? By taking stray status (paralysis is recommended to take as less damage as possible), Conkeldurr hits much harder in addition to the boost from Life Orb.

    Using Life Orb on this set would probably mean renaming this set to "All-Out Attacker."
  23. waterwarrior

    waterwarrior

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,551
    Using LO goes against the purpose entirely. BU, CB, etc. Conk relies on the opponent sending a stray status Conk's way. The point of this is that Conk will ALWAYS have Guts, and not have to rely on the opponent. I can't deny that LO Conk with Guts hits like a monster truck on roids, but its just not the purpose of Status Orb Conkeldurr.
  24. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¬°YA HA!
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,887
    This set is pretty solid. As a minor note, mention a Brave nature with 0 Speed IVs just so Bold variants of Slowbro will outspeed you, this allowing you to hit them much harder with Payback. Conkeldurr won't be outrunning much anyway, so this sacrifice of Speed won't really affect its effectiveness. Also, Stone Edge at least deserves a mention in AC, as being able to demolish Pokemon such as Dragonite and Volcarona is a good benefit.
  25. Danilo

    Danilo im a danilo!!!
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    2,308
    I don't know if you want to be slower than Slowbro, since many of them seem to carry Psychic

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)