Conkeldurr (Status Orb) (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

I'm pretty sure there's a better EV spread for this than the one that you're currently using. i did an analysis on this set on another site, and I used a spread of 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SpD. Here is what I said in my analysis:

MikeDecIsHere said:
"The EV spread is very specific in order to reduce the amount of Burn Damage. With 228 EVs, Conkeldurr reaches an HP stat of 407, meaning that Conkeldurr receives 50 Damage (actually 50.875, but damage gets rounded down) per turn from Burn recoil. At max HP, Conkeldurr would receive 51 Damage, which could actually be a hindrance. 252 Attack EVs with an Adamant nature maximizes Conkeldurr´s damage output. With this EV spread and a Guts boost, Conkeldurr can OHKO Excadrill with Mach Punch and 2HKO 252 HP/252 Def Bold Reuniculus, Conkeldurr´s #1 switch in. The rest of the EVs are pumped into Special Defense in order to maximize Conkeldurr´s Special Bulk as much as possible. If Conkeldurr does not have perfect HP IVs, then you can move some of the EVs from Special Defense to HP, as 407 HP is ideal for this move set"
Of course, this is outdated, since no Excadrill and Slowbro is now a better switch in, but I would still mention that Facade 2hko's bulky Reuniclus. I can show calcs if need be
 

Pocket

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Unlike the conventional Bulk Up Conkeldurr, which only relies on Payback to do damage against Psychic-types, this Conkeldurr has Facade. +1 Facade does 68-80% to Slowbro, so it's a solid 2HKO. +0 Payback can 2HKO / +1 Payback can OHKO if Conkeldurr is slower, but that involves taking a hit anyways, so there is no inherent advantage in under-speeding imo.
 
-I'm not entirely sold on Bold with 0 IVs for the same reason Pocket isn't, but I'll let QC have the final say on it.
-Stone Edge is already in AC, I suppose you just glanced over it
-Implemented MikeDec's EV spread, the fact that Excadrill is irrelevant really has no bearing, as both have max Atk.
 

AccidentalGreed

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Forget what I said about Life Orb. Also,this is basically the second most popular Conkeldurr set, so:

[QC 2/3]

May I ask why this thing's running 32 SpD though? I may be overlooking something, but the OP doesn't really explain that.
 

Pocket

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waterwarrior
-Unfortunately, even with Guts, Conkledurr still struggles with Gliscor, Slowbro, and Reuniclus.
-Skarmory isn't exactly easy to deal with, but Conkledurr will leave a dent in its carapace.
-Rain Dragonite, with SR down, can come in on anything and OHKO with Hurricane
-Rain-boosted attackers, such as Starmie and Rotom-W, can't switch in, but can check Conkeldurr.
Remove Reuniclus in the list, since Conkeldurr scores a solid 2HKO with Facade. Although, you are right that this Conkeldurr still struggles with Slowbro and Gliscor, mention that they both fall close to a 2HKO after very little residual damage:

Facade vs Slowbro: 45-53%; good chance of a 2HKO after Rocks.
Facade vs Gliscor: 48-57%; good chance of a 2HKO after Rocks

I would also add Tangrowth and Hippowdon to that list.

Also, I'd either slash Bulk Up with Facade or mention it in AC. Even with Guts activation, it is only a +1 boost. Guts activation AND Bulk Up are essentially a +3 boost, and a single boost is all it takes for Conkeldurr to 2HKO even Hippowdon, Tangrowth, and Skarmory with Drain Punch. Not only does Bulk Up enhances its wall-breaking capabilities, it also allows Conkeldurr to become a Sweeper, with its boosted Mach Punch being able to clean up much more easily. The loss of a full-powered Facade is a considerable loss, and you may not need the extra power of Bulk Up, which is why I can settle with this being on AC rather than on the main set. However, Bulk Up should be mentioned for the above reasons.
 
May I ask why this thing's running 32 SpD though? I may be overlooking something, but the OP doesn't really explain that.
Since this is my EV spread, I'll explain this one.

It's more the HP EVs than the SpDef EVs. 224 HP EVs rounds down the burn damage to 50 instead of 51 per turn from Flame Orb. After running calcs, I determinted that the extra point of damage is actually detrimental in the long run, despite the extra 7 HP. Therefore, I simply placed the remaining EVs in SpD, though they can really go anywhere, hell even Speed for that matter, but I figured the little extra Special Bulk would be nice.
 
Thanks for the check AccidentalGreed! :D

Anyways, updated the counters list, added the calc on Slowbro (Gliscor one was already there), put Bulk Up in AC, and put the reasoning behind the 224 HP Evs.
 

Pocket

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Thanks for the explanation, MikeDec, and for the changes, waterwarrior :d

QC Approved (3/3)
 

LouisCyphre

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This may be way late at this point, but SubDisable Gengar walks all over this if it runs Facade. Definitely worth at least a passing mention.
 
All right GP team, go ahead and rip this up!

Also, @Lou, SubDisable Gengar walks over every standard Conkeldurr set. If it only countered this one I would've mentioned it, but there's no point.
 

Ray Jay

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Additions in Bold
Deletions in Red


[SET]
name: Status Orb
move 1: Drain Punch
move 2: Mach Punch
move 3: Payback
move 4: Facade
item: Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
ability: Guts
nature: Adamant
evs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Bulk Up and Choice Band Conkeldurr have to hope that the opponent will accidentally burn, poison, or paralyze them, while still being susceptible to Spore from while fearing Sleep from the likes of Breloom. However, Conkeldurr can guarantee a Guts boost and possess , as well as give it an immunity to sleep Sleep, by equipping a Status Orb, easily allowing it to smash through the opposition after the first turn it is sent out. Conkeldurr can easily revenge kill a weakened threat with Mach Punch or come in on attacks like Tyranitar's Crunch in order to safely activate Flame Orb or Toxic Orb, then begin to hammer away. Drain Punch, while actually not the strongest attack Conkeldurr has on this set, is the only way to keep Conkeldurr alive for a long period of time while still as well as hitting hard, as the residual damage from a burn or poison Burn or Toxic will quickly eat away at Conkeldurr's HP. Mach Punch can not only aid in allowing Conkeldurr to safely receive the boost from the Status Orb, but score massive hits on faster threats that would otherwise deal massive damage to Conkeldurr, such as like Terrakion. Payback is the main way any Conkeldurr set will get around Ghost- and Psychic-[backspace]types such as like Gengar, Latias, or Latios or the Lati twins. Facade is the strongest attack on this set, and is able to surprise and deal massive damage to threats such as Gliscor and Reuniclus, who would otherwise completely wall this set.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The given EV spread allows Conkeldurr to drop the residual damage of Burn from 51 HP per turn to 50 HP per turn, which will more than make up for the loss of 7 max HP in the long run, especially with the small boost in Special Defense the 36 SpD EV's give. The choice of Flame Orb or Toxic Orb ultimately depends on how you decide to use Conkeldurr. If Conkeldurr is being used as a mid-game sweeper and will be given the job of breaking the opponent's walls, Flame Orb is the best choice. If Conkeldurr is being used as a late-game cleaner or as a hit-and-run attacker of sorts, where Conkeldurr will not be on the battlefield for more than three turns in a row, Toxic Orb is the best choice.</p>

<p>Like the Bulk Up set, Status Orb Conkeldurr has a few other moves it can effectively use. Stone Edge can be used to nail Flying-types such as Dragonite or Salamence, as well as other threats like Volcarona, harder than any other move could. Hammer Arm and Superpower are far more powerful than Drain Punch or Mach Punch, but the loss of either desperately-(remove hyphen) needed recovery or hard-hitting priority can spell doom for Conkeldurr in many situations, so the two are inferior options. Finally, Bulk Up can be used to send Conkeldurr's Attack stat to even higher levels, hitting an insane 936 Atk stat after only one Bulk Up, but the residual damage from the Status Orb makes it a lot harder for Conkeldurr to find an opportunity to set up the Bulk Ups safely. Furthermore, the only moveslot that can really be replaced with Bulk Up is Facade, but Facade just has so much raw power (as shown in the below calcs) that it is almost too good to ever pass up. For example, see what this move does to defensive Pokemon of the metagame:</p>

<ul class="damage calculation">
<li>Facade vs. 236/252+ Breloom: 69-81.25%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 252/184+ Gliscor: 48.6-57.3%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 252/128 Dragonite (Multiscale activated): 31.4-37%</li>
<li>Facade vs. same Dragonite (Multiscale down): 63-74%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 156/96 Gyarados (after Intimidate): 51.6-60.8%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 252/252 Volcarona: 73-86.1%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 252/252+ Slowbro: 45-53%</li>
</ul>

<p>Regarding teammates, Status Orb Conkeldurr does not require much team support to be used effectively, but can still gain major benefits from them. Arguably the best partner to Conkeldurr is Trick Room Reuniclus (offensive or not), as Trick Room can turn Conkeldurr into an incredibly fast sweeper for 3 turns, where the opponent will majorly struggle to find anything that can even attempt to stop Conkeldurr without taking a major hit. If Conkeldurr is being used in Trick Room, a Brave nature with a 0 Speed IV can be used to make Conkeldurr even "faster" under Trick Room. Toxic Orb would also be the preferred item in that scenario, as Conkeldurr will only be under the effects of Trick Room for three turns and will most likely switch out afterwards. Pokemon that can supply entry hazards, such as Deoxys-D or Ferothorn, (Comma) also make excellent partners to Conkeldurr, as they allow Conkeldurr to turn many 2HKOs into easy OHKOs, making it even harder to stop than it already is. Rapid Spin support from the likes of Forretress is also quite useful, as it allows Conkeldurr to avoid damage from Spikes, which are especially harmful to the Status Orb set. Even with the Guts boost, Conkeldurr still struggles to break physical walls such as Skarmory, Gliscor, and Slowbro, so special attackers like Rotom-W or Jolteon, who can easily muscle past the aforementioned counters, make excellent partners. Furthermore, Conkeldurr's less-than-stellar Special Defense stat leaves it at the mercy of Pokemon like specially-based Dragonite, Starmie, and Rotom-W, especially when Rain is in effect, so dedicated special walls like Chansey, Blissey, and Ferrothorn make great partners (although the first two must watch out for the occasional Psyshock from Starmie).</p>


Good work.
 
This is from a long time ago, but Spiritomb has a fucking OU analysis. Why is that not point enough for it be considered as a check?
 

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Amateur check
REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

[SET]
name: Status Orb
move 1: Drain Punch
move 2: Mach Punch
move 3: Payback
move 4: Facade
item: Flame Orb / Toxic Orb
ability: Guts
nature: Adamant
evs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Bulk Up and Choice Band Conkeldurr have to hope that the opponent will accidentally burn, poison, or paralyze (should those be capitalized?) them, all while still being susceptible to Spore from Breloom. However, Conkeldurr can guarantee a Guts boost and possess an immunity to sleep by equipping a Status Orb, easily allowing it to smash through the opposition after the first turn it is sent out. Conkeldurr can easily revenge kill a weakened threat with Mach Punch or come in on attacks like Tyranitar's Crunch in order to safely activate Flame Orb or Toxic Orb, then begin to hammer away. Drain Punch, while actually not the strongest attack Conkeldurr has on this set, is the only way to keep Conkeldurr alive for a long period of time while still hitting hard, as the residual damage from a burn or poison will quickly eat away at Conkeldurr's HP. Mach Punch can not only aid in allowing Conkeldurr to safely receive the boost from the Status Orb, but score massive hits on faster threats that would otherwise deal massive damage to Conkeldurr, such as Terrakion. Payback is the main way any Conkeldurr set will get around Ghost- and Psychic-types, (comma) such as Gengar, Latias, or Latios. Facade is the strongest attack on this set, and is able to surprise and deal massive damage to threats such as Gliscor and Reuniclus, who would otherwise completely wall this set.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The given EV spread allows Conkeldurr to drop the residual damage of Burn from 51 HP per turn to 50 HP per turn, which will more than make up for the loss of 7 max HP in the long run, especially with the small boost in Special Defense the 36 SpD EV's give. The choice of Flame Orb or Toxic Orb ultimately depends on how you decide to use Conkeldurr. If Conkeldurr is being used as a mid-game sweeper and will be given the job of breaking the opponent's walls, Flame Orb is the best choice. If Conkeldurr is being used as a late-game cleaner or as a hit-and-run attacker of sorts, where Conkeldurr will not be on the battlefield for more than three turns in a row, Toxic Orb is the best choice.</p>

<p>Like the Bulk Up set, Status Orb Conkeldurr has a few other moves it can effectively use. Stone Edge can be used to nail Flying-types such as Dragonite or Salamence, as well as Volcarona, harder than any other move could. Hammer Arm and Superpower are far more powerful than Drain Punch or Mach Punch, but the loss of either desperately needed recovery or hard-hitting priority can spell doom for Conkeldurr in many situations, so the two are inferior options. Finally, Bulk Up can be used to send Conkeldurr's Attack stat to even higher levels, hitting an insane 936 Atk stat after only one Bulk Up, but the residual damage from the Status Orb makes it a lot harder for Conkeldurr to find an opportunity to set up the Bulk Ups safely. Furthermore, the only moveslot that can really be replaced with Bulk Up is Facade, but Facade just has so much raw power (as shown in the below calcs) that it is almost too good to ever pass up. For example, see what this move does to defensive Pokemon of the metagame:</p>

<ul class="damage calculation">
<li>Facade vs. 236/252+ Breloom: 69-81.25%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 252/184+ Gliscor: 48.6-57.3%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 252/128 Dragonite (Multiscale activated): 31.4-37%</li>
<li>Facade vs. same Dragonite (Multiscale down): 63-74%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 156/96 Gyarados (after Intimidate): 51.6-60.8%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 252/252 Volcarona: 73-86.1%</li>
<li>Facade vs. 252/252+ Slowbro: 45-53%</li>
</ul>

<p>Regarding teammates, Status Orb Conkeldurr does not require much team support to be used effectively, but can still gain major benefits from it. Arguably the best partner to Conkeldurr is Trick Room Reuniclus (offensive or not), as Trick Room can turn Conkeldurr into an incredibly fast sweeper for 3 turns, where the opponent will majorly struggle to find anything that can even attempt to stop Conkeldurr without taking a major hit. If Conkeldurr is being used in Trick Room, a Brave nature with a 0 Speed IV can be used to make Conkeldurr even "faster" under Trick Room. Toxic Orb would also be the preferred item in that scenario, as Conkeldurr will only be under the effects of Trick Room for three turns and will most likely switch out afterwards. Pokemon that can supply entry hazards, such as Deoxys-D or Ferothorn, also make excellent partners to Conkeldurr, as they allow Conkeldurr to turn many 2HKOs into easy OHKOs, making it even harder to stop than it already is. Rapid Spin support from the likes of Forretress is also quite useful, as it allows Conkeldurr to avoid damage from Spikes, which are especially harmful to the Status Orb set. Even with the Guts boost, Conkeldurr still struggles to break physical walls such as Skarmory, Gliscor, and Slowbro, so special attackers like Rotom-W or Jolteon, who can easily muscle past the aforementioned counters, make excellent partners. Furthermore, Conkeldurr's less-than-stellar Special Defense stat leaves it at the mercy of Pokemon like specially-based Dragonite, Starmie, and Rotom-W, especially when Rain is in effect, so dedicated special walls like Chansey, Blissey, and Ferrothorn make great partners (although the first two must watch out for the occasional Psyshock from Starmie).</p>
 
| 121 | Spiritomb | 2155 | 0.558% | 1787 | 0.554% |

Slightly more than one half of one percent. Its not relevant at all, especially considering this:

| 97 | Electivire | 4055 | 1.049% | 3121 | 0.968% |
 
Alomomola and Amoonguss have an OU analysis, too - your point?
If they have established niches in the OU metagame that allow them to be granted worthy of an analysis, then Smogon has recognized their presence in the OU metagame. Seeing as an analysis isn't just written for the sake of the analyis being written, and that some people may actually require the niche that granted these subpar Pokemon the right of an analysis, mentioning them as threats to a Pokemon when they are impediments to that Pokemon isn't unreasonable.

Spiritomb, Amoonguss, Alomomola, and many other Pokemon with low usage have OU analyses. Why is it so hard to mention them as threats? Your rebuttal was nonsensical.
 

bugmaniacbob

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If they have established niches in the OU metagame that allow them to be granted worthy of an analysis, then Smogon has recognized their presence in the OU metagame. Seeing as an analysis isn't just written for the sake of the analyis being written, and that some people may actually require the niche that granted these subpar Pokemon the right of an analysis, mentioning them as threats to a Pokemon when they are impediments to that Pokemon isn't unreasonable.

Spiritomb, Amoonguss, Alomomola, and many other Pokemon with low usage have OU analyses. Why is it so hard to mention them as threats? Your rebuttal was nonsensical.
Their presence was recognised only when the metagame was new, and nobody was quite sure what the eventual metagame would look like or turn out to be. Hence why Crustle currently has an OU analysis. In most of these cases they don't have any kind of established niche - indeed, I'm not certain that Spiritomb wasn't initially rejected by QC - but the presence of analyses for these Pokemon does not necessarily mean that they are worth mentioning in analyses for other Pokemon. Typically, analyses for niche Pokemon are only granted for sake of those who may actually want to use them in the above tiers - they cease to be of relevance to people who aren't actually using them, such as is the case here.

Regardless, this is not worth arguing about since it's the analysis-writer's choice whether or not they want to include a certain threat. Also, most of the time even specific threats to sets should go in "Checks and Counters" - typically set descriptions are more for teammates than for checks.
 
Farfetch'd has an analysis. By that logic, he should have a mention on Breloom's counters because his Brave Bird will always OHKO even the bulkiest Breloom set. There's also the fact that, well, since when do the other Conkeldurr sets pick off Spiritombs like they're nothing? If it specifically counters this set and only this set, then you mention it. If it counters 3/4 sets, and the first set has some trouble with it, then it should go in the genral Checks & Counters section, if anywhere.

tl;dr Find me an OU analysis where Amoonguss is listed as a check/counter, and Spiritomb goes in the general checks and counters section, if anywhere.
 

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