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Conkeldurr (Update) [QC: 3/3] [GP: 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Namso, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. Namso

    Namso formerly Fuzznip
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    Okay so I've made a few relatively big changes in regards to Conkeldurr's analysis that I feel are necessary. To make it easier, I'll list them below. Hopefully the rest of QC agrees with the majority of what I will propose. This is a work in progress btw, so feel free to comment on anything that needs to be addressed while I fill in the rest of the stuff.

    Changes to be made:
    • Combine "All-Out Attacker" and "Status Orb" into one general offensive set, with a dedicated section in AC for "Status Orb." They're pretty much identical except for the ability and item changes, and I feel like Sheer Force is a lot better than Guts for this particular set.
    • Remove the "Substitute + Focus Punch" set and gave it a mention in OO instead, as the set itself is generally inferior to Conkeldurr's attacking set and SubPunch Breloom given its better typing, Poison Heal, and Spore.
    • Change the EV spreads to just one EV spread of 120 HP / 252 Atk / 116 SpD / 20 Spe. I'm a little skeptical about the EV spread because I'm not entirely sure what the reasoning behind 120 HP/116 SpD is, so I'm going to see if there are better alternative spreads to use. If you have a good one, lemme know.
    [Overview]

    <p>Equipped with the highest Attack stat out of all Fighting-types in the game and three amazing abilities to further bolster its offensive presence, Conkeldurr is a fearsome attacker in OU and one reason why every team needs a reliable Fighting-type answer. Moreover, Conkeldurr is supplied with a vast movepool, including a priority move in Mach Punch and the elemental punches, making it difficult to wall. Conkeldurr is also backed up by its reasonable durability, unlike most other Fighting-types, and a boosting move in Bulk Up to make it even harder to deal with. It also holds a low enough Speed stat to become a formidable Trick Room sweeper. However, despite being a powerful Fighting-type, Conkeldurr still faces stiff competition from its Fighting-type counterparts, such as Breloom, Lucario, Terrakion, and even the special attacking Keldeo, all of which have an excellent secondary typing to give them an additional STAB attack to use, significantly higher Speed to better fulfill a sweeping role, and Swords Dance in the cases of the former three. Additionally, even with Conkeldurr's high base 105 HP, its measly base 65 Special Defense makes it susceptible to the plethora of high-powered special attacks, such as Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, and Psychic, that plague the OU metagame. Worst of all, however, is Conkeldurr's lack of Close Combat, forcing it to rely on the much weaker Drain Punch and Mach Punch as its notable STAB attacks.</p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Drain Punch
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: ThunderPunch
    move 4: Mach Punch / Fire Punch
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Sheer Force / Iron Fist
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 116 SpD / 20 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is Conkeldurr's generic all-out attacking set, pounding the OU metagame with powerful coverage attacks backed up by its gargantuan Attack stat. This Conkeldurr specializes in wallbreaking and can function as an excellent partner for Trick Room teams. While its STAB attacks are not boosted by Sheer Force and thus cause Life Orb damage, Drain Punch actually heals said damage, and Mach Punch will be used sparingly.</p>

    <p>Drain Punch is this set's primary attack, backed by STAB and a Life Orb boost while recovering Conkeldurr's HP. ThunderPunch and Ice Punch are Conkeldurr's coverage moves; the former is particularly useful against bulky Water-types, such as Jellicent, while Ice Punch is handy versus bulky Ground- and Grass-types, most notably Hippowdon, Landorus-T, and Celebi, as well as the many Dragon-types. Mach Punch is used to chip off the last portion of the foe's health without having to take a hit. It also comes in handy when facing faster Pokemon with Fighting-type weaknesses, such as Kyurem-B and Tyranitar. Fire Punch is an alternative to defeat Jirachi, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Metagross much more easily and is recommended if Conkeldurr is being used on a Trick Room team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The HP and Special Defense investment allows Conkeldurr to better handle special attackers, specifically allowing it to survive standard Life Orb Latias's Draco Meteor and Psyshock. 20 Speed EVs are used to outpace Hippowdon so that Conkeldurr can 2HKO it before it can use Slack Off. Note that 0 IVs and a Brave nature should be used if there is Trick Room support and that Hammer Arm is a great option if Conkeldurr is used on a Trick Room team to outspeed more enemies. Iron Fist is an interesting alternative ability for this set because it boosts all of Conkeldurr's attacks, but it causes Conkeldurr to suffer from recoil. It should be noted, however, that Iron Fist Hammer Arm packs an absurd amount of power, 2HKOing or OHKOing almost everything. It's also possible to run Guts with Flame Orb if you are fearful of potential burn or poison status, making Conkeldurr a reliable status absorber on offensive teams that don't run cleric support.</p>

    <p>Reuniclus and Tyranitar pair up great with Conkeldurr; Tyranitar can remove many of Conkeldurr's checks, such as Gengar and Latias, while Reuniclus can set up Trick Room and has good synergy with Conkeldurr. Reuniclus can also absorb detrimental status with its Magic Guard ability. Conkeldurr struggles to defeat Pokemon such as Skarmory, which can retaliate with Brave Bird, and Sableye, which can cripple it with Will-O-Wisp, so it is ideal to have Pokemon that can remove these counters. Strong special attackers, such as Latios, Heatran, and Keldeo, are decent choices for this, as they can hit both of these Pokemon hard with their appropriate STAB attacks. Conkeldurr is also vulnerable on its special side, so Pokemon that can tank certain special attacks such as Psychic and Draco Meteor are recommended. Jirachi fits the bill perfectly, as it is able to withstand many special attacks aimed at Conkeldurr and provide it with Wish and paralysis support.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulk Up
    move 1: Bulk Up
    move 2: Drain Punch
    move 3: Mach Punch
    move 4: Ice Punch
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Guts / Iron Fist
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With Bulk Up, Conkeldurr can boost its already sky-high Attack and great Defense to impressive levels. Its natural bulk also makes it easy to boost up against many Pokemon, such as Scizor, Tyranitar, Gliscor, and Mamoswine, making it a challenging threat to take down without powerful super effective attacks. Conkeldurr often takes repeated hits due to its low Speed, and Drain Punch offers a relatively strong STAB attack and a means to recover the lost HP Conkeldurr takes from boosting up, which is the main reason why Bulk Up Conkeldurr can be a difficult threat to take out. Mach Punch compensates for Conkeldurr's low Speed and provides a means to pick off weakened foes, and with such a high Attack stat, Conkeldurr hits quite hard with it. Ice Punch is used for its excellent type coverage in tandem with Conkeldurr's STAB moves, disposing of common checks such as Gliscor, Celebi, Dragonite, and Landorus-T, among many other Fighting-type resistant Pokemon.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Max Attack with an Adamant nature is used to ensure that Conkeldurr hits as hard as possible, capitalizing on its Bulk Up boosts. The Special Defense EVs compensate for Conkeldurr's low special bulk, specifically allowing it to have a high chance at surviving a rain-boosted Hydro Pump from Keldeo and Draco Meteor from Life Orb Latios. The lack of heavy HP investment is to maximize Drain Punch healing. However, it is possible to reduce the offensive playstyle and run an EV spread of 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD with a Careful nature for the higher special bulk, making Conkeldurr even harder to take down both specially and physically after Bulk Up boosts; Choice Specs Latios, one of the strongest special attackers in the game, cannot even OHKO Conkeldurr with Draco Meteor with this spread. In terms of other attacking options, Payback is the only notable move over Ice Punch in order to hit Jellicent and Slowbro, which otherwise wall Conkeldurr, super effectively.</p>

    <p>Guts is the preferred ability for several reasons. It basically acts as Conkeldurr's safety net against status, such as paralysis from the likes of Jirachi and Celebi, Toxic Spikes, and Will-O-Wisp and Scald users, turning Conkeldurr into an absolute menace should it get statused. Guts Conkeldurr is also a great addition on offensive teams that don't typically run cleric support to act as a status absorber. However, Iron Fist still holds valuable traits as well. The immediate and consistent 20% power boost to Conkeldurr's entire moveset is useful outside Bulk Up, and when Conkeldurr does acquire some boosts, its Mach Punch becomes all the more threatening, capable of OHKOing threats such as Heatran, Terrakion, and Kyurem-B after Stealth Rock damage and one Bulk Up boost.</p>

    <p>Jellicent is a massive roadblock to Conkeldurr's success, as it walls all of Conkeldurr's moves outside of the unrecommended Payback and can severely hamper Iron Fist Conkeldurr or stall out Guts Conkeldurr with Will-O-Wisp. For this reason, Celebi works very well as a partner because it can take status without worry, thanks to Natural Cure, and can provide Thunder Wave support to allow Conkeldurr to outpace naturally faster threats. It can also take on Psychic-type attacks aimed at Conkeldurr from the likes of Starmie and Latias. Swords Dance Scizor with Acrobatics is also an excellent way to take out Jellicent and even Tentacruel, luring them both in to be promptly annihilated. Physically defensive walls, such as Skarmory and Hippowdon, are also going to be problematic. Powerful attackers that can break through these Pokemon work great, such as Hidden Power Fire Latios, Choice Specs Keldeo, and Taunt Gyarados. A more surefire answer to Psychic-type Pokemon is highly recommended, as Celebi often cannot do much back to Latios, Latias, Alakazam, and Starmie or is weak to their coverage attacks. Specially defensive Jirachi is a phenomenal choice to consider, as it can take these Pokemon very well and is generally a great switch-in to the many powerful special attacks that Conkeldurr would rather not take. It can also provide Wish support in case Conkeldurr is not at sufficient HP to boost up and spread paralysis status in a variety of ways. In terms of more offensive partners, Choice Scarf Tyranitar is an excellent candidate to pair with Conkeldurr, as it can outpace and dispose of Latias, Latios, Gengar, Espeon, and Celebi with its STAB Crunch and Pursuit, all of which can halt Conkeldurr's brutality.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A Choice Band set can become a neat revenge killer with Mach Punch and can hit walls extremely hard with Superpower or Hammer Arm; however, it's not worth it, as it's not difficult for the opponent to switch into a Fighting resist and is thus very reliant on prediction. Using Breloom or Terrakion are better options due to their complimentary secondary typing. A Substitute + Focus Punch set with Iron Fist can be used to decent effect, as Conkeldurr is the strongest SubPunch user in the game. The only downside to this is it's difficult to use because Conkeldurr always has to be behind a Substitute to use its only STAB move and when the opponent realizes your strategy, they won't allow Conkeldurr to set up unharmed Substitutes; you're better off running an offensive set for the immediate power and no reliance on Substitute. In terms of other attacking options, there isn't much to consider. Conkeldurr can use Low Kick for heavier foes but will sorely miss the power against lighter targets, such as Jirachi. Force Palm can also be used for the 30% paralysis chance to make up for Conkeldurr's lack of Speed, but it's illegal with Mach Punch, a priority move too good to pass up when coming from base 140 Attack.</p>

    [Check and Counters]

    <p>It's quite difficult to reliably deal with Conkeldurr without potentially taking a lot of damage due to its huge Attack and excellent coverage. Bulky Psychic-types, such as Celebi, Latias, Reuniclus, Slowbro, and Mew, are some of the best go-to switch-ins, as they take minimal damage from Payback and can retaliate with Psychic; however, some must be cautious of Conkeldurr's coverage moves. Physically defensive bulwarks, such as Hippowdon, Skarmory, Jellicent, and Gliscor, are also effective Conkeldurr checks, but they also need to be wary of its coverage moves. Offensive Gliscor can also pound Conkeldurr with Acrobatics, as can Scizor. Using strong special attackers to puncture through Conkeldurr's low Special Defense is another method to check Conkeldurr, especially under the appropriate weather; these include Latios's Draco Meteor, Keldeo's rain-boosted Hydro Pump, Dragonite's Hurricane, and Volcarona's sun-boosted Fire Blast. It's more difficult to handle Conkeldurr physically due to its high Defense and access to Bulk Up, but using strong Choice Band attackers, such as Garchomp and Dragonite for their powerful Outrage, Landorus-T with its Earthquake, and Breloom with Low Sweep (Breloom can also cripple Conkeldurr with Spore) work well when Conkeldurr is weakened enough, and they can all tank a boosted Mach Punch.</p>
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2013
  2. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    iron fist first on bulk up

    tbf i want it slashed on all-out attacker too, but i can guarantee literally the entire qc team will yell at me if you do it so wait on that...
  3. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    When I tested SubPunch (back when Iron Fist was unreleased), I found the set a lot more potent than the Bulk Up set, simply because it can dish out immediate damage with a super strong Focus Punch. With Iron Fist released, it has only gotten better.
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  4. Jukain

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    oh so i'm NOT the only person who doesn't hate subpunch conk

    in all seriousness it's a damn cool set that i would like to get more consideration
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  5. Namso

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    It's the Life Orb set that outclasses SubPunch. It still has immediate power and doesn't rely on always being behind a Substitute. Plus, you end up having stronger coverage attacks because you're forced to run Leftovers on SubPunch, which can be cancelled by sand. The whole SubPunch strategy is not really that great in general and Breloom is pretty much the only competitively viable user of it given its Speed, typing, Spore, and Toxic Heal.

    As it stands now, I'm against including it.
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    The advantage Sub Punch has over the All-Out Attacker set is how putting up a Substitute eases up prediction. Many players would try to switch into resisted hits and force it out, but against a Sub Punch Conkeldurr, they must actually stay in and break the sub before it can get to Conkeldurr, and the Conkeldurr would use this opportunity to hit the foe with a move that hits hardest. This set highly prefers Leftovers, which is offset by Sand, but oftentimes Focus Punch + Iron Fist is all the power you need to punch holes into the opponent's teams. Whereas the All-Out Attacker has an increased dependency in selecting the right moves on the switch, Sub Punch just sets up Substitute and fire away virtually un-tankable Focus Punches. Unless an opponent is packing a Jellicent, which isn't all that hard to eliminate if you really need it gone, most teams are softened up pretty well by Focus Punch with a little bit of coverage in Iron Fist-boosted Ice Punch and priority in Mach Punch.

    It's not that hard to set up Substitute with Conkeldurr, either, since it has great bulk, unlike Breloom. All it takes is a single TTar, Ferrothorn, or a scarfed Keldeo / Terrakion locked into Hidden Power / Stone Edge to be Substitute bait. Having low Speed actually aids in this strategy, since it ensures that a Substitute would be left intact at the end of the turn. And it only takes one or two chances of Conkeldurr firing off strong punches behind a Substitute to accomplish its job of softening up the opponent's defense for its team.

    I'm not trying to make the case here that SubPunch is better than the All-Out Attacker set; it's obvious that the All-Out Attacker set is almost always the preferred choice. I'm just trying to make a point that there's enough things going for the Sub Punch set to warrant its own set analysis - it's on par or maybe even better than the Bulk Up set from my eyes.
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  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I would be ok with Sub Punch if it wasn't for this fatal flaw: once the opponent gets that you are using Sub Punch it can just keep attacking to break the Sub. For example you can't anymore setup against Ferothorn with Power Whip, one of your main setup targets, and not having a reliable STAB attack just doesn't cut it in OU. You can't threaten Pokemon that you otherwise could if you are not at full life, such as Mamoswine, Magnezone, and Kyurem-B, because they can all hit you hard enough so you don't have enough health to set up a Sub, and they all can take one Mach Punch.

    Also, i know that Fuzznip already has the abilities in the right order, i just wanted to leave this here:

    All-Out Attacker

    Sheer Force > Iron Fist

    Conkeldurr uses more often its coverage moves than its STAB moves, so Sheer Force is generally more useful. Iron Fist is great as well, not to mention that Hammer Arm + Iron Fist is a damn nuke, easily OHKOing 252 HP Rotom-W after SR, and works great with Trick Room support, but it's a bit more situational than Sheer Force.


    Bulk Up

    Iron Fist > Guts

    Iron Fist boosts all three attacking moves of Conk and it does it all the time. It is reliable. Guts on the other hand, relies on you switching into status moves in order to grab the boost, which not only doesn't always go your way (the opponent can just not use a status move), but is harmful for Conkeldur anyway. Being paralyzed makes you not move 1/4 of the time, and getting burned or Toxic'ed puts you on a timer. In general, Guts should not be used to deliberately switch Conkeldur into status in order to get the boost, it's used mostly to make sure that status don't completely ruin its sweep.
  8. ginganinja

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    I think the point of using Guts on Conkeldurr isn't to switch into status moves (like wtf), but to prevent yourself getting utterly raped by them. At least with Guts, WoW doesn't ruin you, and neither does Scald. Sure, they "technically" put you on a timer but I don't really care; The point is that a) im not crippled and b) I just gained a massive power spike and can prolly snatch an extra KO before going down.

    Iron Fist is nice, it just utterly sucks getting forced out by every single water type because a burn screws you that much.
  9. shrang

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    Yeah, Guts is more reliable. I'd much prefer an immunity to burn than a measly 20% boost in power.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Politoed, Tentacruel, and defensive Starmie are the only Pokemon that Guts helps you with, as Jellicent beats Conkeldurr regardless of Guts. And 20% is not a measly power boost at all. Here are some examples:
    • +1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 300-354 (92.59 - 109.25%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. You OHKO Terrakion before it even gets the chance to hit you, which is useful if Conkeldur is weakened and can't afford to take a hit.
    • +1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 258-304 (98.47 - 116.03%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 220-260 (52.38 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. So if Whirlwind brings in something that can force Hippo out, Conk can get past Hippo next time it gets a setup chance.
    • +1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 151-178 (48.55 - 57.23%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 260-308 (80.49 - 95.35%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 145-172 (44.34 - 52.59%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Same deal with Hippo, if Whirlwind brings in something that forces Skarmory out, Conk gets past Skarm if it gets another setup chance.
    • +1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 340-402 (84.15 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. +1 Mach Punch does 16.83 - 20.04% which means that Celebi gets 2HKOed before it can 2HKO back with Psychic
    • +1 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 306-360 (75.55 - 88.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • 252+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 274-324 (91.02 - 107.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Getting a 20% power boost in your whole attacking moveset is huge so i would really urge anyone that hasn't tried it to do so.
  11. ginganinja

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    Yea, I get that a 20% boost is nice, I am just saying I would much less prefer losing to everything with Scald and Will-o-Wisp (shit, even Ninetales cripples you) as well as (bonus) being very effective against Jirachi and Ferrothorn, since you at least discourage both of them to casually throw out a paralysis move least they give you a massive boost.

    Guts lets you beat Starmie, Rotom-W, Ninetales, Tentacruel, Politoed, Sableye AND Jellicent if you forgo Ice Punch and run Payback. Like heck, even Volcarona worries about switching in due to Flame Body potentially screwing it over. I am not denying that those calculations are nice and all, its just that many of those pokemon (note, not all), you actually beat ANYWAY, why wouldn't I run Guts and be more assured against like, every rain team, every sun team, and heck, most balance teams run Rotom-W so why not that as well.

    You are beating stuff that you would risk losing to without guts, I still don't see how that is a bad thing.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Of 'course if you run Payback Guts is the way to go, i was talking about the main set not stuff in AC. Not to mention that Rotom-W prefers to use Hydro Pump most of the time against BU Conk, which even comes close to OHKOing in rain from the bulky attacker set, as WoW gets you fucked up against Guts Conk. The same is true for Ninetales, which would prefer to do a good amount of damage with a Fire attack than give a potential +1 Atk boost to Conk and make it even harder to deal with.

    And Iron Fist helps against a lot of stuff that check you well or at least revenge kill you. SpD Celebi with Psychic (most of them) 2HKOes you without Iron Fist, and Skarmory and Hippowdon can phaze you twice instead of once if you give up on Iron Fist. Oh and Gengar can 2HKO you with Shadow Ball if you have taken a bit of previous damage, as Guts Ice Punch doesn't OHKO after lefties. And don't forget that i didn't mention a lot of Pokemon that Iron Fist helps with because i just wanted to show how a 20% boost is not unimportant at all. 20% boost means 10% more healing and a whole lot more OHKOes on weakened offensive Pokemon with Mach Punch. Hell you can even 2HKO offensive Starmie with Drain Punch + Mach Punch after a boost, with SR up of 'course.

    I know that Guts is very useful against common stuff, but there are a lot of instances where it isn't needed, not to mention that often the opponent doesn't want to deliberately status Conkeldurr in fear of Guts. Iron Fist is always helpful and it helps against many common checks to Conkeldurr, as well as revenge killers.

    Btw i would also like to advocate for a different EV spread on the BU set. 252 Atk / 232 SpD / 24 Spe Adamant lets Conkeldurr survive a Hydro Pump from unboosted Keldeo in rain 80% of the time (with Hydro Pump's accuracy factored in) and a Draco Meteor from Life Orb Latios 66.25% of the time (again with accuracy factored in), in order to 2HKO both of them with Drain Punch + Mach Punch after a boost with Iron Fist (Drain Punch + Mach Punch does a min of 78% damage to Latios, sure 2HKO after SR and a round of recoil). The slightly lower physical bulk has never been an issue, as whenver Conkeldur dies to something its from special attacks, and almost nothing can scratch +1 Conkeldurr from the physical side anyway. Not to mention that the lower HP helps Conkeldurr heal more with Drain Punch, percentage-wise.
  13. tehy

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    Here's another sentence for your skeleton

    • Iron Fist is used to ensure Conkeldurr loses to as many Pokemon he otherwise destroys as possible.
    I don't think i can object to this strenuously enough. If he has Iron Fist-and let's assume I know about it-what the hell is conkeldurr really setting up on in OU, or switching in on, now? And of course, now he's boned to hell and back by Sable and Jelly, Lava Plume tran and Scald bulky waters can render him useless, etc, etc.


    And don't hide behind 'maybe theyre scared cause he could have guts'. Guts is now only a second slash at best on all of conk's main sets. In a month or two, I bet i won't see it much, if at all, if Iron Fist's the first slash on conk.

    Why in god's name is Ice Punch the main slash? You mention that it hits:

    Dragonite:If he has hurricane, then he's a real threat, but that's about it, and you have to hit him on the switch-in. Otherwise, Bulk Up and Payback eventually.

    Gliscor:If he lacks Toxic, set up and destroy

    Celebi:Only hit harder on the switch-in by Ice Punch;even after Iron Fist.

    And then you lose to:Starmie, Jellicent, probably some other stuff I can't think of at the moment.

    Conkeldurr's greatest power is the ability to lol at burn and its inducers. Let's not take that away, please.
  14. Namso

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    I'm not against slashing Guts first, that's the ability I ran with when I used Conkeldurr and I personally prefer it as well. I didn't sorely miss the consistent power boost Iron Fist provides because, all things considered, it isn't vital to Conkeldurr's success; it just doesn't necessarily need it. Some of the reasons why I like Guts:

    1) Basically acts as a safety net against harmful status, turning Conkeldurr into an absolute menace when it does get crippled.
    2) Becomes a nice status absorber for offensive teams that don't typically run cleric support.
    3) Isn't hindered by Toxic Spikes.
    4) Plethora of opportunities to actually get crippled as well with the popularity of paralysis Jirachi and Will-O-Wisp/Scald users, among other rampant users of status.
    5) Conkeldurr isn't necessarily put on a timer either. It only gets a little troublesome with Toxic, but there's nothing stopping you from switching out and resetting that timer, while Drain Punching its health back when it does switch back in. +0 Guts Conkeldurr still hits hard.

    In terms of Ice Punch vs Payback, I honestly feel Ice Punch provides far more utility than Payback does. Payback really only helps with Jellicent. Offensive Starmie has a very high chance to be KOed by +1 Drain Punch + Mach Punch, factoring in Life Orb and Stealth Rock. It fails to KO with LO Hydro Pump. Defensive Starmie loses against Conkeldurr as well because it runs Psyshock and using Scald can backfire if Conkeldurr is Guts. Tentacruel loses to Guts Conkeldurr as well.

    With Ice Punch, though, you maintain super effective hits against Celebi and Lati@s, hitting them harder than Payback on a predicted switch-in. Gliscor fails to Toxic stall or set up Swords Dance against you. Dragonite and Salamence can't Dragon Dance freely either, nor can Garchomp Swords Dance. You beat Donphan, Hippowdon, the odd Zapdos, and Breloom too. Toxicroak can't wall you either and you kill Thundurus-T and Venusaur easily. Don't forget Landorus-T who is definitely something Conkeldurr wants to overcome.

    So yeah, I'm sticking with Ice Punch for now.

    I'll change the EV spread to what you suggested alexwolf. Looks fine with me. Why the 24 Speed, though?
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
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  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Oh yeah i forgot to mention, 24 Spe EVs outspeed paralyzed Choice Scarf base 110s, so basically Choice Scarf Latios. I know that this scenario is very rare but the 4 EVs taken from SpD don't really matter anyway. It's really minor, if you want put it if not it's fine too. Payback is definitely AC as Ice Punch is just too useful to give up, unless your team specifically struggles against Jellicent.

    Oh and also tehy, many of what you say is wrong, many of what you claimed i said i didn't, and your post in general misses a lot of points. But anyway it doesn't matter, the majority seems to agree for Guts > Iron Fist, so it's fine, as long as Iron Fist gets slashed after and gets a good presentation in the AC.
  16. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Key factors, firstly that Rotom-W needs rain to even have a chance at OHKOing, and secondly, Conkeldurr has Drain Punch to heal off that Hydro Pump damage if Rotom-W even did attack. What to take away from this is that Guts Conk still wins against Rotom-W, even more so if Sand is up, whereas Iron Fist loses hard. Most people (I find), use special defensive Ninetales anyway, which needs Fire Blast to even have a prayer at 2KOing (and then Drain Punch moves that chance so lol...).

    Agreeing the Fuzznips post tho in everything, in my tests Guts was far more reliable.
  17. Namso

    Namso formerly Fuzznip
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    I believe this is ready for QC now. Again, ignore what is in the hide tags, that analysis is going to remain untouched moveset-wise (EV spread change is open, though).
  18. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    QC APPROVED 1/3
  19. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    People are more lax about burning / poisoning / paralyzing conk since every "good" RMT this year with it has used Iron Fist over Guts and most people think Iron Fist is creative (hint: its not). Guts is BETTER this meta because even good players aren't afraid to status Conk as much anymore (hell, 10/10 times I burn Conk its severely crippled since everyone assumes you'll fall for the Guts bluff).

    Please mention these things when discussing Guts is all I ask!


    AC mention Payapa Berry because fuck Psychic Celebi / Reu / Zam / CM Jira. Hell Psyshock is more endurable now too.
  20. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Just to illustrate this, max HP / max SpD+ Conk can take a Specs Draco Meteor from Latios, probably the strongest commonly seen Special Attack that isn't weather boosted. Maybe just mention this.

    Otherwise, QC APPROVED 2/3
  21. Namso

    Namso formerly Fuzznip
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    This is done for last QC I think. I deleted the skeleton by accident, though. Sorry.
  22. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    One or two things I noticed.

    • Since Tenta and Jelly are annoying for BU sets, I'd mention acrobatics scizor as a partner.
    • I'd remove Latias from the list of bulky Psychic-types as LO SF Ice Punch is almost an OHKO.
    • In the end about strong physical attackers, imo mention that conk can live a hit and can hit most of these Pokemon hard, so they should only bother when it's weakened.
    EDIT-Also conkeldurr is spelled as 'conkledurr' more than once :]
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
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  23. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs Rule 51
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    Just a quick suggestion, but I think the EVs on the Bulk Up set should be adjusted slightly to give a bit more initial physical bulk. One cool thing about Conkeldurr is the fact that it can easily switch in and set up on Pokemon such as Tyranitar, which becomes harder to do with less physical bulk. The change I'd propose is just moving 40 EVs from SpD to HP. This gives Conkeldurr exactly enough physical bulk to always survive CB Terrakion's Close Combat from full health and never be 2HKO'd by CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge after Stealth Rock. You can then recover a lot of the damage done with Drain Punch and, if necessary, finish the opponent with Mach Punch the next turn. This would cause a slight decrease in special bulk, but not much. For instance, the chance for Scarf Keldeo to OHKO with Hydro Pump in Rain only goes up to 31.25% from 18.75%, and Specs Latios OHKOs with Draco Meteor regardless.

    It might be too late to change the EV spread now, but I just thought I'd throw that out for consideration.
  24. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    I would definitely add Rotom-W to C&C as well as Forretress for the all-out-attacker set. That might seem like an odd thing to add, since Rotom-W gets 2HKOed by Drain Punch. However, Rotom-W can tank a single Drain Punch and proceed to Will-o-Wisp Conkeldurr, not only crippling his attack stat, but also causing him to take even more damage. It can also do a sizable chunk of health with Hydro Pump. Forretress, while it can't do anything to Conkeldurr, can set up hazards in its face if it lacks Fire Punch, a Drain Punch is only a 3HKO. I guess they aren't counters, more like Pokémon that can trouble Conkeldurr. Actually, this may be better suited for the AC of the all-out-attacker, since you can mention Pokémon that help Conkeldurr beat these Pokémon.
  25. BKC

    BKC
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    qc approved 3/3

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