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Pokémon Conkeldurr

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Epikhairz, Jan 18, 2014.

  1. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
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    Conkeldurr #534
    [​IMG]
    Type: [​IMG]
    Abilities:
    Guts / Sheer Force / Iron Fist
    Base Stats: 105 / 140 / 95 / 55 / 65 / 45

    Notable Moves (in no particular order):
    Knock Off
    Drain Punch
    Mach Punch
    Ice Punch
    Thunder Punch
    Fire Punch
    Superpower
    Poison Jab
    Earthquake
    Stone Edge
    Bulk Up
    Poison Jab
    Payback

    Analysis:
    Since Conkeldurr was introduced in BW, it has always been a brutal attacker. It boasted a nearly unrivaled Attack stat of 140 and decent bulk of 105 HP / 95 Def, and also had access to the coveted priority attack Mach Punch. It is also complimented by its amazing three abilities which it can take advantage of in different ways, and its low Speed can be mitigated slightly by using Mach Punch, or simply slapping it onto a Trick Room team. However, for the very reason that its Speed is low, as well as its Special Defense, and the fact that it lacks another typing, Conkeldurr can find itself struggling to compete with fellow Fighting-types like Mega Lucario, similar to last generation. Also, the new Fairy-type also causes lots of troubles for Conkeldurr, as another type has been thrown in to take on Fighting.
    However, in XY, Conkeldurr got some new toys to play with. The biggest change with the generation shift was the buff that Knock Off received. Now, nothing can safely switch into Conkeldurr bar Dark-resisting Mega Pokemon because there is a high chance it will use Knock Off, causing the loss of an item that could be crucial to success. Also, the new item Assault Vest allows Conkeldurr to remedy its previously debilitating Special Defense stat and make it somewhat usable. Conkeldurr won't be able to use non-attacking moves, but that's a small price to pay to turn Conkeldurr into one of the best well-rounded bulky Fighting-types in the tier. Here is Conkeldurr's most commonly run set that capitalizes on these two buffs:

    Assault Vest
    Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD - suggested by November Blue (post #7)
    Adamant Nature
    - Drain Punch
    - Mach Punch
    - Knock Off
    - Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Poison Jab

    With an Assault Vest attached to it, Conkeldurr actually becomes pretty sturdy on the special side as well and can come it on lots of attacks. When this variant of Conkeldurr comes in, switching out can be an extremely scary ordeal because Knock Off has the potential of crippling a Pokemon for the match, as well as being extremely strong. Drain Punch is Conkeldurr's primary STAB and is really its only way of independent recovery; therefore, if you wish to keep Conkeldurr alive longer, you may want to bring a WishPasser. Mach Punch is a strong priority STAB and mitigates Conkeldurr's poor Speed stat slightly; it can pick off foes easily and packs a powerful punch. Finally, the last moveslot is mostly for coverage. Have a problem with Dragons? Use Ice Punch. Have a problem with Gyarados and miscellaneous Flying and Water-types (Tentacruel)? Use Thunder Punch. Have a problem with those pesky Fairies? Use Poison Jab, though you won't get an Iron Fist boost from it.
    Personal Analysis
    I really like Conkeldurr in XY OU. A bulky Fighting-type with access to Knock Off, Mach Punch, and great coverage with the elemental punches are just some of the many reasons to use Conkeldurr. I can't really explain it with a full paragraph so I'll just end things here.

    Community Sets (open)

    Bulk Up - by Sir Heru (post #6)
    Conkeldurr @ Leftovers
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    Drain Punch
    Mach Punch
    Ice Punch
    Bulk Up

    3 Attacks + Protect - by Cheatingtaco (post #12)
    Conkeldurr @ Leftovers
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature

    - Drain Punch
    - Mach Punch
    - Protect
    - Earthquake

    CroConk - by 13_luckynumber (post #38)
    Conkeldurr @ Leftovers
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Atk OR 252 Atk / 252 SpD/ 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Bulk Up
    - Drain Punch / Knock Off

    SubPunch - by losedude (post #42)
    Conkeldurr @ Leftovers / Black Belt
    Ability: Iron Fist
    EVs:252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch
    - Knock Off
    - Ice Punch / Drain Punch

    All Out Attacker (Iron Fist) - by Jack B. (post #54)

    (Conkeldurr) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Iron Fist
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Fire Punch
    - Ice Punch
    - Thunder Punch
    - Mach Punch



    Questions for Discussion
    - Is Conkeldurr outclassed by anything
    - Is Conkeldurr worth using in OU despite having to compete with powerhouses like Mega Lucario
    - Are there any other viable Conkeldurr sets
    - Any other questions
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  2. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    I advise max Attack, since that's all you'll be doing. You want good Attack to kill things and yield a bigger pay off from Drain Punch. There's no point in all that bulk if he can't boost or recover health by himself.
    FlyThai and Wunderbear like this.
  3. Hrothgar

    Hrothgar

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    I adored the bulk up set in bw and now I'm interested in the vest but does it hit hard enough I wonder? I'd like to see some calcs
  4. Kriptini

    Kriptini

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    Conkeldurr may be transitioning to anti-meta this gen. Rotom-W is the most-used Pokemon in OU right now, and many Rotom-W sets commonly carry Will-o'-Wisp. If you can get AV Conkeldurr to switch in on that WoW, you're golden. There are also some new WoW users, like Trevenant and Gourgeist. Conkeldurr can also hit Aegislash pretty hard thanks to Knock Off. He's got some stuff to watch out for, though, as Talonflame can eat him for breakfast and Conkeldurr sadly cannot survive two hits from CB Entei's Sacred Fire, so that is one burn he can't take advantage of. Conkeldurr also has to watch out for Clefable, as a Clefable with no offensive investment can still 2HKO an AV Conkeldurr.
  5. FlashStep

    FlashStep

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    I find that Talonflame makes a great partner with it, TF absorbs all the WOWs and deals with a number of the users (Trevenant, Gourgiest) while Conkeldurr handles the Rock-types that threaten TF. But yeah, Rotom is difficult to handle.
  6. Sir Heru

    Sir Heru

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    My set looks like this, it works pretty well against Rotom-W:

    Conkeldurr @ Leftovers:
    Ability: Guts
    IV's: 252 HP/ 252 Attack/ 4 SpD
    Nature: Adamant

    Drain Punch
    Mach Punch
    Ice Punch
    Bulk Up


    To explain why it is really good against Rotom-W:
    In my experience over the last couple of months, Rotoms just spam Will-O-Wisp as they want to. Here is where it gets interesting. I can either just bring in Conkeldurr or, if it is already in, just go for a Bulk Up. At a good amount of HP, a Hydro Pump will not knock me out and I can get a good amount of HP back. Usually followed up by a Mach Punch I knock it out. Unless there is a Talonflame on the team, this leads to a crucial sweep. I have Leftovers over Assault Vest, because once I get the burn, I'm on a timer. Regenerating half of the burn damage every turn really helps me out a ton.

    I love this thing, I wish, I could use it in UU, but it would be too broken there. If only Machamp got Drain Punch *sigh*
    Actually, Espeon and Conkeldurr are the only things I miss about OU.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  7. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    You have Drain Punch for healing. Assault Vest is far superior.

    Epikhairz0603 Could you please change the set in the OP to this:

    Conkeldurr @Assault Vest
    252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
    Guts
    Adamant

    Drain Punch
    Mach Punch
    Ice Punch
    Knock Off

    This set provides the best special bulk, and doesn't compromise physical bulk as much as you'd expect. Max power is essential because Conkeldurr's main role is to hit hard, and the stronger the hits the higher the Drain Punch recovery.

    Iron Fist is inferior, IMO. Burns are everywhere, and Conk's presence gives the opponent a reason to refrain from spamming WoW, which can protect your teammates. Why would you give up a status absorber role for a little extra power?
  8. Sir Heru

    Sir Heru

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    I won't be able to use Bulk Up then. Also there are situations, where you can't Drain Punch, when fighting a Garchomp for example.
  9. Antibiotic

    Antibiotic

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    I don't necessarily agree that giving Conkeldur Max attack/spdef is the best way to go. I give him a spread of like 248 HP/136 Atk and put the rest in SpDef. While I don't really have specific calcs for the spread, the point is to make him a tank on both sides, not just special. How essential is Conkeldur's attack if you can't survive to retaliate? This also helps with psyshock, one of the biggest counters to AV Conk.
  10. KlynPar

    KlynPar

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    I think max atk is almost a must because Conk's attacks are so weak (105 BP, 97.5, 75, 75, 60) and without a boosting move on the AV set Conk just wouldn't be powerful enough to tank. Also, being more powerful actually somewhat helps Conk's longetivity because it increases healing from Drain Punch. With no investment on both sides, after AV Conk has 226 Def and 249 SpD. So, essentially, if you're going for a mixed defensive tank, it would make more sense to invest in Def than SpD.
  11. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Is bulk up really that good? I've been playing Assault Vest, and Knock Off + Ice Punch delivers such amazing coverage I'm not sure I'd run Bulk Up even if it were possible to use it alongside vest. It makes Conk soo hard to handle for many teams. I often find myself leading with Conk just because it's so good at handling so many different enemies (with AV equipped). The only real annoyance is fairies, but even they don't like losing their items-- so Mega Venu is about the only thing that likes switching into Conk.
    unfixable likes this.
  12. Cheatingtaco

    Cheatingtaco

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    Can I just say that I love conkel this gen. I use a different set then most but it works amazing.

    Conkeldurr Leftovers
    Adamant Nature
    252 HP 252 Atk 4 Spe
    - Drain Punch
    - Mach Punch
    - Protect
    - Earthquake
  13. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
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    Not this Gen, IMO. Too many things can hit Conk super effectively, which compromises its ability to stay in and boost up. Assault Vest's bulky pivot role suits it much better.

    Should Bulk Up get a set? Or would Iron Fist Choice Band be a more worthy candidate?
  14. KlynPar

    KlynPar

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    Can you explain what Protect accomplishes?
  15. FlyThai

    FlyThai

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    Conk would much rather have Ice Punch or Thunderpunch instead of protect. He also enjoys having Knock Off instead of Earthquake
  16. unfixable

    unfixable I believe in the person I want to become
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    4 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 79-94 (22.4 - 26.7%) -- 25.9% chance to 4HKO
    252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 80-96 (21.9 - 26.3%) -- 12.5% chance to 4HKO
    They can't really do anything to each other.
  17. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 244-288 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Entei: 130-154 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Technically if you get burned from his first Sacred Fire as you Drain Punch you'll do enough damage to finish him with Mach Punch the next turn. And don't wory about ExtreSpeed because Entei can't switch moves.

    The win is in Megasaur's hands. Any one with Sleep Powder for one screws him over, and he can't outlast a combination of Leech Seed and Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb. Also if one carries Knock Off then so much for that Assault Vest!

    The Bulk Up set IS still really good, and actually good potentially afford the 252 HP / 252 SpD spread what with Bulk Up and Guts to boost your attack.

    4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 118-139 (28.5 - 33.5%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
    4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 85-102 (24.1 - 28.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO
    4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Conkeldurr: 127-151 (30.6 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    In this instance, Leftovers preserves more health in one turn than the Assault Vest with max HP, and only a bit less than the Vest with max SpD, however a second turn of Leftovers from a switch or any non special attack results in more HP preserved overall. Furthermore you have a much better Df and At stat after one boost. Also because AV Conk is so popular, people can easily screw themselves over by trying to send a physical threat into you only to see you have Bulk Up instead. Leftovers mitigating Burn damage is also really helpful. AV Conk will be better at switching in, BU Conk can tank and stick around better.

    252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 135-160 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
    4+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 348-412 (91 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

    Conkeldurr maintains +0 because Intimidate counteracts Bulk Up. You are now much safer from his Earthquake and your Ice Punch can still potentially OHKO, or Mach Punch can finish him off anyway. And this is with 4 At EVs.

    252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 300-354 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 4+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 204-240 (68.4 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Situational admittedly but if they are desperate to get rid of you with their Talonflame and you got a Bulk Up in you can always survive to their dismay and OHKO with Knock Off with Stealth Rock, otherwise get out. If Talonflame was stupid enough to try to switch into a predicted Drain Punch and gets its Band or Life Orb Knocked Off it stands no chance.

    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 265-313 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 4+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 163-193 (54.6 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 399-469 (113.3 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Drain Punch heals you passed 2HKO range and Mach Punch can finish with recoil factored in. AV Conk just gets slaughtered.

    252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 344-408 (83 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 4+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 204-242 (75 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Mega Pinsir can't even OHKO from full switching in, because Leftovers would have healed any Stealth Rock damage you took by then. If you were burned however than he has a small chance to OHKO you, but you will always OHKO even without rocks.

    252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 100-118 (24.1 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 4+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 186-220 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    And it should go without saying that BU Conk beats all variants of AV Conk too lol.

    Of course the problem is like Chou mentioned giving up coverage for Bulk Up. Many of these victories are dependent on your two move other than the mandatory Bulk Up and Drain Punch. Mach Punch needed for outspeeding and clinching certain KOs, Knock Off needed for the good Dark coverage and safety from their item, and Ice Punch for the numerous Flying threats. Theoretically if you had to pick and you can consistently get to +2 you might want to forego Mach Punch. Your added strength and bulk combined with the superior coverage and healing from Drain Punch and Leftovers can help brute force your way through your checks. I wouldn't say one eclipses the other outright. AV has the benefit of immediate power and switch in opportunities. Also better coverage always. Bulk Up has the advantage of being sturdier and harder to force out, potentially severely limiting your opponent's options and can take physical hits substantially better.

    I'm personally biased to BU because of BW, I was one of his early advocates when people were saying he wouldn't surpass Machamp with such weak moves lol. But I've used AV Conk a lot too. They're both great.
  18. Cheatingtaco

    Cheatingtaco

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    It gives him opportunities to heal up with his leftovers.
    Listen, I have no idea why this set works, but it literally destroys everything.
  19. Antibiotic

    Antibiotic

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    I still dont agree max attack is a MUST. I'm on my phone, so I dont have full numbers available to me, but I just find the small extra damage you do with your attacks to be less important than the ability to potential take one because conk is slow and will generally have to take one. The little extra damage you do gives you only half of that back, and absorbing the little extra gives less survivability than having extra defense. I'm not saying that either one is necessarily better, as both can be situational, but everyone defaults to 252/252 even though going bulkier is just as viable imo.
  20. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    Rationally however, Conkeldurr with a Vest is always attacking, or he isn't in play. That's the nature of the item. And enough attack is necessary to ensure more 2HKOs that would otherwise allow your opponent to get another attack off in the first place. Plus, there are two sides your opponent can attack you from, or you may not even be attacked at all some turns, and certainly not on the ones they switch. And because of how Drain Punch works on an AV set with only Guts for buffing damage it is universally more beneficial to have At investment, often maxed now. Now, I won't disagree that if you can find a certain threat or two where taking some points from At and putting them in SpD or HP helps you survive certain OHKOs for example, then that is certainly appropriate to shoot for. You can argue that AV Conk doesn't need MAX At, but to suggest like in the OP that he functions just as well with no At investment is misguided.
  21. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Look at me.
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    OK I've changed the EV spread of AV Conk to the one you guys have been suggesting with max Attack, specifically to the one set by November Blue.

    I've also added other sets discussed in this thread to the OP so if you would like to discuss them and don't want to search the thread, they are there for convienience's sake.

    -----------------------------

    Might as well use this as the base post for my C&C work + Discussion Threads so here goes:

    XY OU C&C Previews : [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG](WIP)[​IMG](WIP) [​IMG](WIP)[​IMG](WIP)
    XY OU C&C : [​IMG][​IMG]

    XY UU C&C : [​IMG][​IMG](nuked)[​IMG](nuked)
    XY RU C&C : [​IMG]

    BW RU C&C : [​IMG]

    Discussion Threads: [​IMG][​IMG]
    Pokemon Online Wiki C&C Work
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014
  22. Antibiotic

    Antibiotic

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    If you look at the spread I posted, I still had 136 Atk EV's, with an Adamant nature, so I definitely still invest a lot in Attack, and definitely don't recommend zero. 248 HP/128 SDef gives you about the same special bulk, with the benefit of the 248 HP for defense. In regards to missing 2hko's, if you are missing a 2hko on something with the EV difference in attack, chances are you will be able to make that up with Mach Punch. A lot of what Conk can stay in on and OHKO (Excadrill, Garchomp, Dragonite, Bisharp, Terrakion, etc..) are all physical, and will require Conk to take a hit. And considering you will usually want Conk to end up burned, he will likely not be at full health while trying to take these hits. I have played with both, and just sitting here running calcs doesn't always translate to actual battles where my Conk has barely survived hits because of his defense investment. In my experience, I've run into more situations where Conk could have been killed by a hit and wasn't, than where I couldn't kill an enemy between my attack and mach punch that I could've because I lacked attack investment.
  23. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Add in Synthesis and potentially Leech Seed and you'll quickly find out which one wins against the other...
  24. neooo

    neooo

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    The most fun part about the Aegislash vs Conkeldurr match up is the fact that it comes down to mindgames (assuming both are using the most generic movesets).

    A smart Aegislash user will try to fake out the Conkeldurr user with Kings Shield. Even at -2 the initial hit from Knock Off will deal 1/4th damage, but if his prediction fails, and Conkeldurr doesn't end up at -2 before the initial Knock Off, Aegislash loses over half its HP in shield form and its precious item (obviously losing its item may be beneficial, if it's got Weakness Policy).

    From here out it's a mix of prediction and outplaying one another. Conkeldurr suffers significantly if its at -2 in this matchup (obviously if it gets a second stat down it'll most certainly lose).

    Conversely, Conkeldurr can do a bit of faking out itself. If you believe your opponent is going for Kings Shield, obviously Fighting moves won't hit Aegislash, and you'll avoid the -2, making it quite the interesting match up. Assuming Aegislash is the generic special set, each Shadow Ball will do over 1/3 of Conkeldurrs HP.

    I think it's a pretty close matchup between the two. The Aegislash user needs to be slower than Conkeldurr, otherwise he'll lose the matchup outright (meaning -speed nature and no investment into speed IVs or EVs). They both perform a similar role in most teams: the meat shield that hits like a bus, and is [generally] unhindered by status moves.

    Lastly, it's important to note that Conkeldurr has access to Earthquake. If you're not a betting man, or lady luck shafts you often, you can do a devastating (and reliable) 60% damage hit, unhindered by King's Shield because it doesn't make contact. All calcs in this post were made using the generic 252 HP 252 ATK 4 SPD Assault Vest Conkeldur and the generic Spooky Plate 252 HP 252 SPA 4 ATK Aegislash (with lowered speed, of course). It might be hard finding space for Earthquake, however.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
  25. JOebob

    JOebob

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    without the move tutors how does one go about getting a timburr with eithe rice or thunder punch mach punch and drain punch ??

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