Personally, I would have Sazandora over Zuruzkin.
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Conkeldurr
- Thread starter Colonel M
- Start date
ya but roobushin and zuruzukin can work together to power through counters, than the other can sweep through the rest of the team.
>Implying Drain Punch is much more weak than DynamicPunch and doesn't provide healing.
Drain Punch, after the Iron Fist boost, is a 90 base damage attack. It heals you 50% of the damage it does, which is ALWAYS more than Hippowdon can do to Roobushin with Earthquake. 252 HP / 0 Def Roobushin with one Bulk Up (+1 Defense) takes 20.3% - 23.9% from 0 Atk neutral Hippowdon. Meanwhile, Drain Punch does 42.4% - 50% to 252/152+ Hippowdon (I messed up my previous calc); 178-210 damage. That is healing Roobushin 89 - 105 HP back, 21.5% - 25.4% (aka- always more than the damage Hippowdon can do with Earthquake). That's excluding the fact that Hippowdon must alternate between Earthquake and Slack Off, plus Roobushin can use Bulk Up more than once. Hippowdon is a miserable matchup, and literally will never beat Roobushin (it can check it, but a lot of things can take down a Hippowdon at ~60% health). Hammer Arm is a great move in its own right, and I'm not arguing that (it does 50.7% - 60% to the same Hippowdon with one boost), but Drain Punch has excellent tanking utility. In practice, the move has helped me a lot.
We really don't know tiers yet, so I was basing my "Fire-types" off Gen IV. Ulgamoth is common, but they can all be KOed by the combination of Payback and Stealth Rock (followed by Mach Punch for some of them).
Roobushin plays entirely different than something like Lucario or Choice Banded Fighters (who the fuck uses the latter anyway?), it's more like Swampert than the rest (comparing it to the others because of a shared typing is about as logical as comparing Milotic to Floatzel.
I'm honestly not sure why Hippowdon was ever brought up in this conversation, as it has never really countered Fighting-types. Either way, you are going to be Roared out before the situation you outlined occurs.
I'd rather see calculations against something that will actually switch into Roobushin, like Gliscor, Salamence or any other Flying/Bug type that resists Mach Punch.
Roobushin is probably the best user of Drain Punch, but I still don't see it as an effective strategy in the long term. There are better tanks in my opinion, and using Bulk Up with Fighting moves is just asking Shanderaa to come in and OHKO you with Overheat. I won't be surprised if this pokemon is OU, but it is being hyped up far too much in this thread.
Hey, I use CB Fighting-types. They're strong and have multiple moves of over 100 base power.
But you're right overall, Roobushin is more like Swampert than Gyarados.
Well what works for me is I set up screens before I switch my Roopushin in. They're almost forced to status me at that point, which is what I hope they do.
I'm not saying Roopushin is almighty or anything. But for me and my team, he's a focal point and he's a very strong OU competitor. All his abilities can be useful and your opponent has to question which one you're packing.
I'm not saying Roopushin is almighty or anything. But for me and my team, he's a focal point and he's a very strong OU competitor. All his abilities can be useful and your opponent has to question which one you're packing.
An important difference between Machamp and Roobushin is survivability. Machamp is still much harder to OHKO than Roobushin is.
For instance, Machamp is guaranteed to withstand things like Max SpAtk +0 Dialga's Draco Meter without any SpDef investment. Virtually no neutral unboosted attack short of Self-Destruct can do in a 'Champ, even from new threats. The Shandera matchup is another prime example:
Max SpAtk Shandera's +0 Overheat does:
82-95% to 252/0 Machamp (316-367 of 384 HP)
93-110% to 252/0 Roobushin (387-456 of 414 HP)
To Roobushin's credit, it has a small chance to OHKO Max HP Shandera with Stone Edge while Machamp does not, though honestly, a critical hit is more likely to occur considering that this is Stone Edge. Both OHKO any Shandera after SR, Machamp just does so more reliably.
Mach Punch and higher Attack are really Roobushin's only perks, and admittedly they are great ones. Machamp is arguably the better Bulk Up user, due to it's overall superior sturdiness, not to mention all the Bulk Up opportunities that DynamicPunch presents. Machamp has better stat distribution, and a Stone Edge that never misses. Hard to top that.
For instance, Machamp is guaranteed to withstand things like Max SpAtk +0 Dialga's Draco Meter without any SpDef investment. Virtually no neutral unboosted attack short of Self-Destruct can do in a 'Champ, even from new threats. The Shandera matchup is another prime example:
Max SpAtk Shandera's +0 Overheat does:
82-95% to 252/0 Machamp (316-367 of 384 HP)
93-110% to 252/0 Roobushin (387-456 of 414 HP)
To Roobushin's credit, it has a small chance to OHKO Max HP Shandera with Stone Edge while Machamp does not, though honestly, a critical hit is more likely to occur considering that this is Stone Edge. Both OHKO any Shandera after SR, Machamp just does so more reliably.
Mach Punch and higher Attack are really Roobushin's only perks, and admittedly they are great ones. Machamp is arguably the better Bulk Up user, due to it's overall superior sturdiness, not to mention all the Bulk Up opportunities that DynamicPunch presents. Machamp has better stat distribution, and a Stone Edge that never misses. Hard to top that.
Mach Punch, Drain Punch, and higher HP push the game in Roopushin's favor like you wouldn't believe. Not only does he take physical attacks better, but with a Bulk Up or two, it's actually feasible for Pushin to tank his way through an entire team. There's a reason he's top OU (#5 on DW) and Machamp isn't.
^Let's not kid ourselves; Roobushin's popularity is a direct result of Doryuuzu's, not it's superiority to Machamp.
Any team that is swept by a Mach Puncher, frankly, sucks.
Any team that is swept by a Mach Puncher, frankly, sucks.
Sounds like you haven't really used Roopushin. +2 Doryuuzu will still have his way with you, as Mach Punch won't OHKO unless it crits and +2 EQ definitely will.
I've tanked through many, many teams just bulking up on walls and sapping health from sweepers, finishing things off with priority when necessary. Quite frankly, you won't be able to stop it at all unless you have a really strong STAB Psychic on your side or it eventually dies from residual damage via Toxic or burn. A lot of players know this and that's why it's on every other team.
To be honest, I'm puzzled as to why there aren't more people packing a Meloetta, Gochiruzeru, or Skymin in response. I guess they just enjoy losing?
I've tanked through many, many teams just bulking up on walls and sapping health from sweepers, finishing things off with priority when necessary. Quite frankly, you won't be able to stop it at all unless you have a really strong STAB Psychic on your side or it eventually dies from residual damage via Toxic or burn. A lot of players know this and that's why it's on every other team.
To be honest, I'm puzzled as to why there aren't more people packing a Meloetta, Gochiruzeru, or Skymin in response. I guess they just enjoy losing?
I'd guess that most people don't even know Meloetta exists, dismiss Gochiruzeru as "destined for UU," and I thought a lot of people were using Skymin. I guess Togekiss could make for a good counter as well.
Then again, I haven't played any Gen V online yet, so I'm only going off of forum talk.
Now that I think of it, how does Rankurusu do against Clown? Seems like the Cell can come in on a resisted Mach/Drain Punch and take the hit fairly well with his bulk. Because Rankurusu is actually even slower than Roh, Roh's Payback won't do as much damage, so he'll either switch out or Bulk Up and hope he doesn't get a Psychic/Psycho Shock to the face. Meanwhile, Rank can Recover off the damage he took from switching in. Once again, this is me going off of speculation without any number crunching.
Then again, I haven't played any Gen V online yet, so I'm only going off of forum talk.
Now that I think of it, how does Rankurusu do against Clown? Seems like the Cell can come in on a resisted Mach/Drain Punch and take the hit fairly well with his bulk. Because Rankurusu is actually even slower than Roh, Roh's Payback won't do as much damage, so he'll either switch out or Bulk Up and hope he doesn't get a Psychic/Psycho Shock to the face. Meanwhile, Rank can Recover off the damage he took from switching in. Once again, this is me going off of speculation without any number crunching.
Actually, I do use Roobushin on Random Wifi and in the Battle Subway.
I never said that it OHKOed the mole (it does with a Guts boost). It reliably finishes off weakened moles from about 60%. It is the primary reason that Roobushin is used. Believing otherwise is fooling yourself.
You must be facing some terrible teams. Maybe they've never heard of Gengar. Or Shandera. Or Latios. Or friggin Espeon for that matter. Any strong Special Attacker that doesn't die to Mach Punch will finish off a weakened Roobushin, and several of them can OHKO from full HP.
Well first i'd like to say that this post helped me understand your side of the story a bit better so kudos on that.Yes I understand that Drain punch is actually a quite awful move really.What i am trying to say is that Drain punch prevents Robushin from being completely useless because of lacking a good Stab attack.It will never be as good as Dynamic Punch but it's also not that bad either.There wasn't too many good abusers of this move in DPP and Robushin does it pretty well so just try it out once you might like it =P.
Lol interesting job i might start doing it >_<.I dont see any reason for it to have gotten worse however.Its pretty much the same as before unless theres some mechanic im not aware of yet (Doubt it ive been no lifing Uncharted for a while now T.T).
Its somewhat irrelevant.And this thing is really bulky actually and Fighting is actually a pretty good Typing as Flying/Phychick is rarely seen other then Shaymin-S which will probably be banned anyways...
I ment that it is somewhat useless except for abusing Dynamic Punch other then helping your opponent out with 100% accuracy Burns and stuff.Dont get me wrong if Robu got it I'd deffinetly use it or for anything else as well for that matter.
*Dumb moment* .___. ...Okay this comment was really ill thought out il admit that.
No but Robushin isn't actually trying to abuse its speed.If it was something like Tyranitar and wanted to DD then it was another story but he isn't probably aiming to go first anyway so it dsn't matter for him while on Heracross it looses bulk for Speed that isn't actually worth it.
Payback rapes Phychicks as well so they cant on Robu either =P.
Nothing much to add here.....
Idk it always seemed differant for me the Hp drain was always pretty well and helps it tank pretty well as well.I cant really say anything to justify this because this is just the way i feel.
How did Hippo even get in this discussion anyways?T.T...But what im saying is that Hippo won't actually ever "wall" it or "counter" it like it did for some stuff like SDLuke.
*Another dumb moment* I was really sleepy I wonder why i even said that >___>....Yah Dynamic Punch is definitely more reliable.No Disagreement here.
Kerudio <3.
And yes i do agree that this thread is hyping him too much but thats with a lot of other pokes as well and everyone is just psyched about all the new things so dont burst our Robushin is godly Bubble :D.
with iron fist he will. its the main reason he is on my team atm. balloon doryuuzu is fucking hard to check.
I agree, I started having two pokemon capable of using Psychic as a partial result. It, Kojondo, Blaziken, and even Infernape are still popular. Although for Blaziken, ironically, Ropushin is a better matchup thanks to better physical defense and Drain Punch. Especially after Bulk Up.
Roopushin might me a good counter to Dooryuzu but I assure you it's not the only reason it's popular. It can sweep if you let it.
?__?
Rohpushin can be EVed to survive latios DMs/shandera overheat/espeon psychics with enough HP and be able to KO with payback + mach punch. gengar doesn't really do anything you just can't restore your health against him. i've done it and it's really not that hard. if you're lucky they have psycho shock which does less damage to your boosted defense stat
Timid Espeon's unboosted Psychic does 91-108% to 40/216 Roobushin...
Shandera is immune to Mach Punch, as is Gengar, who does upward of 50% with LO Shadow Ball and can simply Destiny Bond him.
A team that can't counter or revenge Roobushin is not competitively sound. There's no excuse for getting 5-1'ed or 6-0'ed by Roobushin. Or even 4-2'ed. It should at best net a KO and some significant damage.
Roobushin is a great Pokemon in it's own right; that has nothing to do with Doryuuzu. Personally, I feel that Roobushin owning Tyranitar is much more of a feat. Nevertheless. it's high usage atm has everything to do with Doryuuzu.
If that's all we wanted it for, then why not use Breloom or Hitmontop, who actually OHKO with no prior damage whatsoever? Why aren't those guys #5 instead of Roopushin?
Lol, "terrible team" argument. That shit gets old. I play a lot of good players and all of them have troubles with Roopushin. All of them. That's because none of them run Alakazam, LO Espeon, nor Specs Gochizeru (see: stuff that can actually switch in and threaten to OHKO). The most common teams in the top 20 consist of Ttar, Doryuuzu, and Shandera, with three fillers. And if none of those three fillers have STAB Psychic or Air Slash, you're going to have trouble beating Roopushin. Period.
No, you're just bad at using Roopushin and have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Gengar can't do anything to Roopushin besides hit it with Shadow Ball for like 30% then die to Payback. Latios doesn't even come close to OHKOing with a Specs Draco Meteor. And since I know he'll be using that when he comes in, I'll just Drain Punch him so that the next one won't KO, then Drain Punch the switch-in for more HP. This happens on a regular basis, if you keep him in relatively shape.
Your arguments about strong special attackers would be valid if we were facing Subpunch Roopushin, who runs max HP and Attack with Iron Fist, but then you're facing a new kind of beast, who can easily sub up on walls that can't hurt him or Pokemon he forces out and KO the strong special attacker you send in. Bulk Up Roopushin runs (or should be running) max/max Careful. That way, he can set up on weak special attacks.
The fact of the matter is, Roopushin is hard to kill and hits EVERYTHING for massive damage. Fighting type is audacious defensively, and with Guts, he doesn't have to care about status. Plus, with the new 75 BP Drain Punch, can 2HKO bulky sweepers like Garchomp at +1 (47.3% - 56.3%; even if Garchomp is at max HP and you roll low twice, you can finish him with Mach Punch).
Really, with arguments like these, I doubt you've used Roopushin extensively, if at all. If you want to start making some real arguments, make a good team and plug this set in somewhere:
Roopushin @ Leftovers
Careful 252 HP/252 Sp. Def/4 Speed
Ability: Guts
Bulk Up
Drain Punch
Mach Punch
Payback
Unless everyone starts running Specs Gochiruzeru or Wobbs, I guarantee you it won't disappoint (even if they do, switch to Sub Punch and lol).
For those that struggle with Shandera: Shandera struggles against Scarf Tyranitar with Pursuit. Seriously, Shandera is only a problem if Roobushin gets dragged into the fight early, and you can actually EV Roobushin to survive the Overheat impact if Machamp can do it.
Also surprised that no one mentioned Mach Punch stopping Terakion. Since Terakion will have to use Close Combat sometimes, it should be easy to put into OHKO range after a Defense drop. Terakion is mad dangerous too; especially Balloon variants that I've had major success with when I tested it for a short time.
There is also 252 HP / 252 SpD Careful to consider.
Also surprised that no one mentioned Mach Punch stopping Terakion. Since Terakion will have to use Close Combat sometimes, it should be easy to put into OHKO range after a Defense drop. Terakion is mad dangerous too; especially Balloon variants that I've had major success with when I tested it for a short time.
I think max/max Careful is optimal for a Bulk Up set. Survivability on a slow boosting set is key, since it allows him to get off more Bulk Ups and tank more Pokemon before he goes down. Since he's already 2HKOing bulky SOBs like Chomp a +1, I don't think he needs to run 252 Att unless you plan on getting massive mileage out of Mach Punch.
Also, if you guys want some solid Roopushin counters, in place of the aforementioned Psychic types, you can also run Desukan. Payback won't kill him because he's slower and hitting him with it once overwrites Guts with Mummy, making you vulnerable to Will-o-Wisp.
@ Colonel: Jaroda is right behind Roopushin at #6 (or 7, idk) and I'd actually be afraid of running Terakion at all if it means he gets a free +2.
Also, if you guys want some solid Roopushin counters, in place of the aforementioned Psychic types, you can also run Desukan. Payback won't kill him because he's slower and hitting him with it once overwrites Guts with Mummy, making you vulnerable to Will-o-Wisp.
@ Colonel: Jaroda is right behind Roopushin at #6 (or 7, idk) and I'd actually be afraid of running Terakion at all if it means he gets a free +2.
Dream World Jaroda teams don't often use Tyranitar, so I've just thrown Shandera to KO it since it's pretty easy. Yeah, though, Jaroda with Perversity is pretty threatening. Then again I was surprised that Salamence can take +6 with 0 HP EVs... 50%. -.-;
I've been using max Attack Adamant to help ensure the KO most of the time against Doryuuzu with Iron Fist. It also is pretty nice to make Hippowdon thinking twice about staying in to take an upgraded Drain Punch as well.
Where did you find this info with statistics anyway?
http://91.121.107.186/index.html
Or, you can just go to the pokemon-online website, click 'competitive' and then click 'statistics'.
Ah, thank you.
Well, that doesn't surprise me with Ditto and Shandera in Dream World.
But Roobushin... I didn't even think it would really scratch the Top 10, but it's #5 on both of them. >_>; Then again it's the first month, which is why oddballs like Darkrai and DX-A are so low.
Really, it should come as no surprise than new Pokemon are at the top of the usage tiers. Tyranitar is a no-brainer.
Admittedly, I've never considered using a Careful Roobushin. That's a considerable power drop. Can a Careful Roobushin OHKO Max HP Shandera?
I still don't see how a well put together team loses to Roobushin. Especially a Careful one. 379 attack Mach Punch isn't threatening enough to destroy a team, especially to things like Gyarados and Salamence. Adamant Sub-Punch with Iron Fist seems like the best bet, which is why I use it (Payback + Mach Punch).
If nothing else, Gengar can switch in on a fighting move and bait you into premature demise with Destiny Bond. How much does does Careful Roopushin's Payback do to Gengar?
Edit: That list is ridiculous. Electivire is more used than Lati@s and Celebi? Charizard is more used than Darkrai? Srsly?
Admittedly, I've never considered using a Careful Roobushin. That's a considerable power drop. Can a Careful Roobushin OHKO Max HP Shandera?
I still don't see how a well put together team loses to Roobushin. Especially a Careful one. 379 attack Mach Punch isn't threatening enough to destroy a team, especially to things like Gyarados and Salamence. Adamant Sub-Punch with Iron Fist seems like the best bet, which is why I use it (Payback + Mach Punch).
If nothing else, Gengar can switch in on a fighting move and bait you into premature demise with Destiny Bond. How much does does Careful Roopushin's Payback do to Gengar?
Edit: That list is ridiculous. Electivire is more used than Lati@s and Celebi? Charizard is more used than Darkrai? Srsly?