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Core Crisis

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Jellicent, Sep 10, 2012.

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  1. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    [​IMG]
    Art by RitterCat



    The Goal​


    The object of the game is to post the best possible Pokemon that counters the core posted by myself at the start of every round. By posting 1 or 2 Pokemon that counters the duo, we will obtain knowledge of the metagame and you will gain points. Another aspect of the game is to prevent the other players from getting points, and this is done by proving in this thread that their post does not counter the duo as well as they say it does. Without further ado, let's play.

    Logistics​


    The rules:
    • You are to post 2 Pokemon or 1 Pokemon that counter(s) the above core single handedly. Needing SR, Rapid Spin, or Dual Screens support greatly hurts your argument and will likely prevent you from getting points.
    • Post the complete set(s) of your Pokemon, including EVs, nature, item, and moveset.
    • Do not include a Pokemon in your post that has already been used this round.
    • Post reasoning and how you will play your Pokemon against the above core. If you can't prove to us that your Pokemon counter(s) the above, then you will not get points for it.
    • Feel free to question someone's post with reasoning / calcs if you believe they are incorrect; this could prevent them from getting points.
    • People will get points at the end of the round based on if I feel their Pokemon really does counter the above core.

    Round 1:
    [​IMG]
    move 1: Fire Blast
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Hidden Power Grass
    move 4: Roost
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    ability: Pressure
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [​IMG]
    move 1: Rapid Spin
    move 2: Stone Edge
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Swords Dance
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Swift Swim
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    ~Points~
    If you post 1 Pokemon that counters the above core, you will get 2 points for that round.
    If you post 2 Pokemon that counters the above core, you will get 1 point for that round.
    If your post does not actually counter the core as deemed by the community, you will get no points. I will have the final say on this.
  2. wildeb33zt

    wildeb33zt

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    16
    [​IMG]
    move 1: Trick Room
    move 2: Endeavor
    move 3: Confuse Ray
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Focus Sash
    nature:
    ability: Magic Guard
    LvL: 1

    [​IMG]
    move 1: Trick Room
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Psyshock
    move 4: Fire Blast
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Quiet
    ability: Regenerator
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA

    I don't know how you want this to play out, but this is how I'd deal with it with my Rarely-RarelyUsed team.

    Solosis gets up a free Trick Room, and the only way it won't take down one of Kabutops/Moltres with it is if Moltres Roosts when endeavor is used, and in that case a toxic can be thrown (if roost-stalling out TR is the plan), before another endeavor finishes it off.

    Under Trick Room, Slowking has no problems killing either of the two 'mons one-on-one with Surf.

    --------------

    Is this the right way of approaching this? This "core" won't win against the two above in absolutely every scenario, but I assume you're talking about a two-on-two match, so you don't have to factor in having to switch in on them. If you do, then you can probably disregard my entry.
  3. Molk

    Molk tfw zoroark
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    dunno if this counts but lol

    [​IMG]
    Metang @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Clear Body
    Level: 1
    Serious Nature <------ note, this can be anything really lol
    - Explosion
    -
    -
    -

    [​IMG]
    Sceptile @ Life Orb
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Focus Blast

    Okay so, the first thing you do is send in dMetang when one of them is sent out, if your lucky and THE MIGHTY METANG effect takes place and they time out, excellent! but it doesnt really matter whether it lives or not. Once Metang has died you go to sceptile and OHKO both of them with hidden power rock and giga drain, respectively.

    Sadly, i really doubt that anything can switch into both of these without a problem, i mean barely anything can switch into moltres alone even if it misses, same for tops, the power of a +2 stone edge or even aqua jet is insane :/. Another factor is that a good player will try as hard as they can to make sure neither of these pokemon can come in except after a KO.

    my way of beating the core, personally is just to stop either of them from switching in, and if one of them does get in safely, to predict around it, or if worse comes to worse, sac something and bring in a pokemon that can outspeed and KO both, in my case sceptile. This is how most offensive teams deal with threats and cores like this, chances are nothing can switch into such a powerful core, but if you have a pokemon like sceptile, you can probably sacrifice a pokemon you dont need and start up your own sweep =).


    Edit: just checked and i dont think theres any one viable pokemon that can accomplish it ;-;.
  4. TROP

    TROP [02:45] <~Molk> i have a personal hatred for druddigon
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    Random sets lgi

    [​IMG]Whimsicott @ Heat Rock
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Sunny Day
    - Memento
    - Encore
    - U-turn

    [​IMG]Entei @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
    Timid Nature
    - Stone Edge
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Fire Blast
    - Substitute


    Because too lazy to write, the short version:
    • Set weather with Whimsi if you really want to nerf Moltres best bet against Entei and Aqua Jet. Memento is because, well, it is motherfucking memento and is always helpful for something like this. Encore is if Kabutops tries to get greedy. U-turn was mostly filler.
    • Entei Ohkoes both with the correct move.
  5. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    No single Pokemon is countering this core. The only full counter to Moltres is Lanturn and it isn't doing well against Kabutops on its own. Anyway, I'll go defensive and what you need to switch in is kind of dependent on what's out at the time:

    [​IMG]
    Lanturn (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 192 HP / 108 Def / 208 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Heal Bell
    - Thunder Wave
    - Volt Switch

    [​IMG]
    Tangrwoth (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Leech Seed
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    As we all know, Lanturn is the best switch-in for Moltres. It's the only thing in the tier that can resist both STABs and avoid getting 2HKOed by HP Grass after SR. From there, Lanturn threatens both parts of the core with Thunder Wave and Volt Switch. Neither can stand paralysis and both will take major damage from Volt Switch. Scald also poses a threat to both, but in a different manner. The 30% burn chance is something Kabutops just can't risk switching into, or else it will be unable to break Lanturn for Moltres. So, Lanturn can't take a switch-in on Kabutops. However, Tangrowth is able to do this. Should Tops be out, Tangrowth is the best switch-in. It deters Moltres from coming in thanks to Sleep Powder and Leech Seed will make it impossible for Moltres to break through Lanturn, even with prediction. Giga Drain swiftly ends Kabutops. If you want to lure out Moltres, you could use HP Rock, but giving a free switch-in for Escavalier or specially-based Grass types with this core is a really, really bad idea.

    Calcs:
    Timid LO Moltres HP Grass vs. 192/208 Calm Lanturn: 39.17% - 46.46% (never 2HKOs after SR)
    +2 Jolly LO Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252/252+ Tangrowth: 59.4% - 70.04% (2HKO)
  6. SilentRevolver

    SilentRevolver

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    Actually I have a Lanturn set that Single handily destroys this core.

    [​IMG]



    Lanturn @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 52 HP / 200 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power (Grass)
    - Volt Switch


    Basically this Lanturn is custom built to take at least one hit from this core and proceed to KO both with Thunderbolt, oh and also the Choice Scarf allows you to out speed both. Water Absorb prevents you from being picked off by Aqua Jet as well as healing HP when switching in to a predicted Waterfall. Yup....Volt Switch is nice to pick off Moltres and Kabutops after they have taken some damage while maintaining momentum.

    EDIT: Should Mention that Moltres is KO'd after one round of Life Orb recoil or a little bit of prior damage.

    Calcs: Moltres 252 SpA LO (+SpA) Hidden Power Grass - 65.8% - 77.7%
    Kabutops 252 Atk LO (+Atk) Stone Edge - 74.5% - 87.9%
    Neither are OHKO's even after Stealth Rock.
  7. EonX

    EonX One of a Kind
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    @ SilentRevolver: For a Pokemon to be able to truly counter something, it has to be able to switch directly into the opposing Pokemon and not fear being 2HKOed by any move. So, your Lanturn is 2HKOed should the Moltres user predict its switch-in with HP Grass. The reason I said that no single Pokemon can counter a Moltres+Kabutops core is because the only true counter to Moltres (Specially Defensive Lanturn) is unable to counter (or directly switch into) Kabutops. The OP doesn't specify which one of the two Pokemon we have to switch into, so we should assume we need to switch into either one and no single Pokemon can do that safely.
  8. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    [​IMG]
    Electabuzz @ Eviolite
    Trait: Static
    EVs: 20 Def / 240 SAtk / 244 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power (Ice)
    - Volt Switch

    This guy will always survive Moltres's Fire Blast, even after Stealth Rock, and outspeeds Moltres by one point even with Modest. Electabuzz's Thunderbolt also has a nice 80% chance to OHKO Moltres at full health, with the OHKO being guaranteed after Life Orb recoil. Electabuzz can even switch into Kabutops, though this isn't recommended since Electabuzz takes a LOT of damage from Stone Edge (though it survives it after Stealth Rock with this EV spread fyi, so you can switch it into Kabutops if necessary and proceed to outspeed and OHKO with Thunderbolt). Electabuzz generally should try to switch into Moltres, as it can easily take two Hurricane's or Hidden Power Grasses.

    Calcs:

    Moltres's Fire Blast vs Electabuzz:
    Fire Blast: 188-224 (69.37 - 82.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Kabutops Stone Edge vs Electabuzz:
    Stone Edge: 199-235 (73.43 - 86.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs Moltres:
    Thunderbolt: 312-368 (97.19 - 114.64%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
    Electabuzz Thunderbolt vs Kabutops:
    Thunderbolt: 366-432 (139.69 - 164.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  9. Bigblue

    Bigblue

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    A pokemon that I have been testing a lot and is a great check to this very common core happens to be Jynx (RMT coming soon actually)
    [​IMG]
    Jynx (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Focus Blast
    - Ice Beam
    - HP Rock/Lovely Kiss
    - Psychic

    The reason why Jynx is a great check to this core is the complete immunity to water while at the same time outspeeding moltres and kabutops (Since immune to aqua jet). Kabutops is an easy kill for Jynx after stealth rocks or spikes as Psychic does
    Show Hide
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Jynx Psychic vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Kabutops: 90.8% - 106.13% (43.75% chance to OHKO)


    And in the case of Moltres neither psychic or icebeam has a chance to OHKO but running HP rock is an easy KO or coming in Moltres after stealth rocks is an easy KO, another option is lovely kiss but it is a less reliable source for a KO but works 75% of the time.
  10. xiquon

    xiquon

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    Hitmonlee @ Normal Gem
    Trait: Unburden
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake

    Bring in Hitmonlee and Fake Out. You can now outspeed both pokes. Close Combat easily OHKO's Kabutops and Stone Edge demolishes Moltres, (assuming it doesn't miss.)
  11. Bigblue

    Bigblue

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    Not reliable strategy and because the opponent can easily switch out to something like slowking or tangrowth and get rid of your normal gem which gets rid of your way to check moltres and kabutops. Not to mention aqua jet does a ton to hitmonlee and can easily KO if it is even near to 60% health CALC
    Show Hide
    252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops (+Atk) Aqua Jet vs 0 HP/0 Def Hitmonlee: 59.75% - 70.12% (2 hits to KO)
  12. melvni

    melvni
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    @Bigblue Jynx can't switch in on Moltres's Fire Blast or Kabutop's Stone Edge, so it can't counter the core. To counter the core, your set has to be able to win in a worst case scenario, which Jynx cannot do.

    Calcs:
    Fire Blast vs. Jynx - 191.51-225.83%
    Stone Edge vs. Jynx - 319.93-376.38%

    @xiquon Hitmonlee is KO'd by Hurricane on the switch in almost two times over, so it fails to counter the core for the same reason Jynx does.

    Calc:
    Hurricane vs. Hitmonlee - 190.46-224.07%

    Anyway, from down in NU I bring you a mon that counters anything not super bulky with below 105 speed:

    Kadabra@Focus Sash
    Trait - Magic Guard
    Nature - Timid
    252 SpAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    ~Psychic
    ~Signal Beam
    ~Energy Ball
    ~Hidden Power Rock

    Outspeeds both, can't be KO'd turn one, and KO's them both in one hit:

    Energy Ball vs. Kabutops - 169.47-200%
    Hidden Power Rock vs. Moltres - 103.43-122.12%
  13. xiquon

    xiquon

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    @BigBlue
    People keep referencing "Aqua Jet" on Kabutops. If you look at the set given, Aqua Jet is not used. Also, I assumed this one a 1 on 2 or 2 on 2 scenario where the core is the only thing you have to worry about.
  14. McMeghan

    McMeghan Dreamcatcher
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    Offensive Way

    [​IMG]
    Mesprit @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Psychic
    - Thunderbolt
    - U-turn

    [​IMG]
    Sceptile (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Focus Blast

    Mesprit is an excellent all-around lead. Moltres Fire Blast has 0% chance of OHKOing Mesprit at full life, that means Mesprit will lay down its SR on the field. Kabutops isn't able to KO Mesprit with Stone Edge + Aqua Jet while Mesprit will OHKO the offensive Kabutops thanks to Expert Belt Thunderbolt. So, bar crit or confusion, SR will be on the field.

    Sceptile doesn't really needs a description, it OHKO's both Moltres and Kabutops with HP Rock and Giga Drain, while being faster and having a water resistance.

    Not only those two pokemon are able to offensively check Moltres+Kabutops, they are top tier in RU and will without any doubt be useful in a ton of other situation.

    Defensive Way

    [​IMG]
    Slowking (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Thunder Wave
    - Fire Blast
    - Slack Off

    [​IMG]
    Tangrowth (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 156 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Stun Spore / Leech Seed

    Finding sure switch in to those two was difficult and I think I can say it's impossible to switch in something that would counter both Moltres and Kabutops on his own, so that defensive core is the closest thing I found to counter them.

    With that spread, Slowking is never 2KO'd by Moltres if there is no SR on the field. In case of SR, you still have 50% chances to survive two Hurricane (they both had to hit of course). Tangrowth walls Kabutops all day long, nothing to add there. Also, both Pokemon have Regenerator, an ability that make them easy to keep at full health.

    The interesting thing is they are both able able to cripple whatever your opponent would send out, and especially if they decide to -for whatever reason- counter them only using the core.

    Moltres and Kabutops don't want to be paralysed, making T-Wave and Stun Spore good tools to make your opponent afraid to switch out. Sleep Powder/Leech Seed on Tangrowth will also works toward that.

    Some explanations about the EVs/Moveset :
    - Fire Blast on Slaking is there to OHKO (80% of the time) Escavalier, which could try to Pursuit you out.
    - HP Rock on Tangrowth is there to punish Moltres switch in (and Entei one too).
    - Tangrowth, with the given EV Spread, will always KO Moltres after one LO Damage. That means Moltres will always die if he takes an HP Rock on the switch.
  15. august

    august get a grip mothafucka
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    Got it in 1 mon

    Kadabra @ Focus Sash
    Magic Guard
    Modest nature

    -Hidden Power [Rock]
    -Energy Ball
    -Psychic
    -Calm Mind

    Can switch in on Moltres or Kabutops, survives Fire Blast / Stone Edge etc, and OHKOs both handily :)
  16. Bigblue

    Bigblue

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    The core does not reference aqua jet but the most common by far runs aqua jet whether this one says it or not so it is good to account for that as well.
  17. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    What? It doesn't matter if it's 2hkoed by a move, it survives any of the moves and OHKOes both of them while outspeeding. Choice scarf lanturn was actually going to be my choice, but was beaten to it :L. Idk if he's allowed to use it though seeing as you used lanturn before him.

    @mcmeghan, unfortunately, sceptile has already been used so idk if that would be legal. Slowgrowth looks a little fishy, though. Not only have you already got a 25% chance of losing already with SR on the field (factoring in hurricane accuracy), you haven't considered what happens if the opponent double-switches.

    Say you bring out slowking on moltres and he doesn't get a high enough damage roll to KO you, he then switches to kabutops, takes the t-wave, then you have to switch out slowking or you will die to a stone edge, but if he predicts your switch (not the hardest move in the world) and goes to moltres, you've already lost as all he needs to do is hurricane+HP grass and slowking is dead if it tries to switch in. Pretty reliant on prediction and doesn't seem so sturdy IMO.

    Anyway, here's my entry, works pretty much the same as lanturn and electabuzz.

    [​IMG]
    Ampharos @choice scarf
    Trait: Static
    EVs: 252 HP / 20 SpA / 236 Spe
    Modest (+SpA, -Atk)
    -Thunderbolt
    -Volt Switch
    -Hidden Power Ice
    -Focus Blast

    Pretty simple really, switch into anything and survive the OHKO, outspeed and OHKO both with thunderbolt.
  18. The Scarecrow

    The Scarecrow

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    Oct 1, 2010
    Messages:
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    The first Pokemon I thought of naturally to combat the MoltTops core is Galvantula.
    [​IMG]
    Timid @ Life Orb
    252 SpAtk/252 Spd
    -Volt Switch
    -Thunder
    -Energy Ball
    -Hidden Power Ice

    Galvantula alone is able to come in after one of your Pokemon has died (or against a predicted Roost or HP Grass from Moltres) and OHKO both of these Pokemon with a Life Orb boosted, STAB, ~93% accurate Thunder. Both Moltres and Tops are OHKOed 100% of the time.


    **EDIT: I realize I was supposed to come up with a "Counter" to this core, but I have to go to school right now so maybe when I get back haha. Galvantula does dismantle it though.
  19. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the Astronaut's pet dog >:3
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    [​IMG]
    Sigilyph @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Energy Ball
    - Heat Wave
    - Hidden Power Rock

    Same deal as Sash Kadabra by august - come in and survive a hit with a sash, and then demolish Moltres and Kabutops with HP Rock and Energy Ball, respectively.

    HP Rock vs 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 93-110%, OHKO after LO recoil
    Energy Ball vs 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 152-180%, OHKO
  20. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    Tangrowth, specifically with Hidden Power Rock, as well as Slowking, is the best defensive core to counter both Moltres and Kabutops. Tangrowth can come in on Kabutops and put something to sleep or catch Moltres off guard with Hidden Power Rock, and Slowking can switch into Moltres and paralyze either that or Kabutops should it come in. Trick Room Slowking with Grass Knot is also pretty good as well. For offensive cores/Pokemon, I'd say that Sceptile is the best because it can come in on 3/4 of Kabutop's moves and outspeeds Moltres. The other stuff is lol because you wouldn't really use it xD. Not sure if random stuff counts but good job so far imo!
  21. melvni

    melvni
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    Just going to point out that that is indeed a good counter.

    Great minds think alike, but I got it first. :)
  22. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the Astronaut's pet dog >:3
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    Yea, DittoCrow, there really aren't much options left lol (or maybe I'm not thinking hard enough -_-) The lack of Aqua Jet makes it much easier to check these duo, though.

    Here's another offensive counter (hopefully more realistic :x)

    [​IMG]
    Uxie @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    - Psyshock
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick
    - Calm Mind

    [​IMG]
    Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def)
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Hone Claws

    If the opponent lead with Kabutops, I bring in Uxie, which survives all of Kabutop's moves comfortably. Uxie cripples Kabutops with Thunderbolt while it finishes off Uxie. Aerodactyl comes in after the KO and clean house.

    If the opponent leads with Moltres, Aerodactyl survives LO Fire Blast even after SR (52-61%), and then promptly eats up Moltres for dinner. If the opponent decide to play tricky and switch in Kabutops to activate Weak Armor, Uxie will still be faster and finish off Kabutops and then promptly 2HKO Moltres.
  23. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

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    Quagsire @ Leftovers
    Trait: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    - Scald
    - Earthquake
    - Recover
    - Toxic

    Slowking @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Scald
    - Thunder Wave
    - Slack Off
    - Fire Blast

    This core is basically exactly like the tanking core accept with quagsire. I run max/max+ sp def slowking so it can will never be 2hkoed. Also, quagsire dgf about kabutops as kabutops only 4hkoes with waterfall, Waterfall: 124-146 (31.47 - 37.05%) -- guaranteed 4HKO. Not much else to say besides it rapes the core.
  24. sfgiantsfanmike

    sfgiantsfanmike

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    My initial damage calculator failed so I am removing post...
  25. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the Astronaut's pet dog >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Co-Lead

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    Umm, Regigigas takes 54% min from Moltres's LO FB, so it's definitely not a counter. Moltres's FB followed by Kabutop's Stone Edge kills Regigigas, so it's not even a good check.
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