Counter that Core! CharChomp Submissions, See Post #40

[Electrolyte]

approved by us

Counter That Core!​

So the concept of this project is easy. Every (~)week or so, a common and popular core will be posted. It will be up to you guys to post counters to that core, either another pair or a single Pokemon. At the end of each phase, we will vote on whos submission most reliably counters the core in question. Like Victim of the Week, just with two victims!

Keep in mind that when posting, we are again looking for the most reliable counters. You will not get extra points for creativity, because this is a learning activity. Please do not submit gimmicks or low usage Pokemon- that is not the point of this exercise. Cheap submissions like Focus Sash on typically non-sashed Pokemon or type resistance berries on typically non-berried Pokemon are suboptimal ideas and should only be used as last resort.

However, due to the structure of Doubles gameplay, there will be some leniency in terms of submission reliability. You can assume that all submitted Pokemon have already switched in against the targeted core. For instance, if the core in question is Volcarona + Gyarados, it is ok to answer Terrakion / Choice Scarf Tyranitar, even though neither of them can reliably switch into Gyarados (and Volcarona, in Tyranitar's case) In cases with Intimidate, you can either assume that it's not in effect or that it is, just keep in mind that cores that can beat Intimidate while it's in effect are obviously more reliable than cores that cannot.

I will be keeping a "Hall of Fame" to keep track of past cores / submissions.

Hall of Fame

CORE #1- Terrakion + Bisharp
Darkmalice's Choice Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Drill Run

Useful Links

What are Checks and Counters?
Damage Calculator

Good luck, everybody!

 

[Electrolyte]

CORE #1

Terrakion + Bisharp

Bisharp @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Protect

Terrakion @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
- Quick Guard
- Protect

This is a very common core that everyone should see and know how to counter. Good luck, everyone!

 

[Nollan]

First off, nice Timid Terrakion putting in work :)

And for the counter:

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
4 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Def / 232 Spe (Speed EVs are for Jolly Scarf Lando-T; bulk is for LO Breloom Mach Punch)
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Sacred Sword

252+ Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 468-552 (144.8 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 856-1012 (314.7 - 372%) -- guaranteed OHKO 3 times over
252+ Atk Terrakion Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 354-416 (109.2 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Terrakion Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 640-760 (235.2 - 279.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 2 times over

Needless to say, this specific core I've never been a big fan of since both of them have a lot of issues against opposing Fighting-types, which this given set highlights. From my experience Togekiss is one of the biggest partners to these two to help with that, which is why I opted for Terrakion. With repeated Rock Slides flying around (or Stone Edges if you opt for that over Rock Slide which I see as a possibility), Togekiss will also have difficulty with this set, allowing you to essentially counter half of a team with one set. It does lose some points for switch in issues, but get it in safely and the opposition is in a terrible position, I can tell you that.

Overall I'd say just about any Fighting-type (and a good few Ground-types) can counter this pair pretty efficiently, so there should be a lot of cool options out there (even if half of them are gimmicks ;-;).

PS- you might say Scarf Terrakion is a gimmick, but I honestly think it deserves more usage than it gets, outspeeding things like Thundurus, Skymin, and Latios unexpectedly (swept Pocket with one once to horribly embarrass someone; Beat Up was not involved with that in any way either). It also has a talent for racking up them flinches, and as evil as that is, its also quite useful :>

 

[Anty]

Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Vacuum Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Protect
- Nasty Plot / Dark Pulse
As much as i would have liked to post everybodies favourite steel/fighting type, cobalion, it chose this as it doesnt rely on a speed tie with terrakion. Of course you protect as you mega to out speed and then you ohko terrak first, and can live any move sharp can through at you then ko bisharp. Unfortunately, you get 2hko'd if using cc with 2 def drops (iron head then sucker punch) and special sets are cool because they cant be intimidated

252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 404-476 (125 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 496-592 (182.3 - 217.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 101-120 (35.9 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

e: i slashed on dark pulse, because that would be standard to hit aegi

Also Electrolyte , you have terrakion with a timid nature, you might wanna change that to jolly - nice idea tho :)

It is a nice core but any fighting type that outspeeds kinda reks them, unless weak to iron head^^

 

[shaian]

Seriously the best counter for this core is Lando-T plus Togekiss, or as I now dub it Landokiss:

Landorus - Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- U-Turn
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

Togekiss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SpA
Careful Nature
- Follow Me
- Tailwind
- Roost
- Airslash

Originally I was gonna say Scarf Sylveon + Magmar because that's hilarious and I may or may not have tried that before, but then I realized the most obvious counter to terraksharp is literally just the current king of doubles, Scarf Lando-T (actually pretty much any Lando-T) + Togekiss. It's not creative or uncommon or anything, but it just works. Earthquake pretty much OHKO's both in one hit, you outrun both and Toge redirects that +1 LO Suckerpunch that Lando doesn't wanna take. Now the core is dead.

Damage with spread included:
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 320-378 (98.7 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 290-344 (106.6 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And why Togekiss is important:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 298-351 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Yeah, you really don't wanna take that hit.

 

[Bughouse]

Well, fighting types are all super obvious, but I'll be a bad player hipster

"Type resistance berries on typically non-berried Pokemon are suboptimal ideas and should only be used as last resort."

Bite me.

Aegislash @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Quiet Nature
- King's Shield
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Wide Guard

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Colbur Berry Aegislash-Shield: 153-183 (47.2 - 56.4%)
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 368-436 (135.2 - 160.2%)

And obviously Terrakion can't do jack shit. Meanwhile, you can use Wide Guard to protect a teammate against Rock Slide or just obliterate it with a Shadow Ball or Sacred Sword.

 

[Darkmalice]

Mold Breaker
########
name: Mold Breaker
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Rock Slide
move 3: Iron Head
move 4: Drill Run
ability: Mold Breaker
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant


The advantage that Excadrill has over other checks is that it can OHKO both Bisharp and Terrakion in just one turn. Unlike the most common scarfed EQ user, it does not activate Defiant.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 302-356 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 324-384 (100 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Whilst Terrakion does have a chance to survive EQ, it will be OHKOed after LO recoil or if any chip damage is netted earlier. Keep in mind that a very common teammate for Excadrill is Togekiss, who will have no problems keeping Excadrill safe from both Terrakion's CC and Bisharp's Sucker Punch, and you have Drill Run if you must guarantee a OHKO.

Sand Rush sets with Life Orb or Earth Plate obviously work too and will always OHKO Terrakion, but that mandates Tyranitar as a teammate.

 

[Deoxymoron]

A lot of counters have been posted, but I haven't seen many checks- most of the sets posted get destroyed if one mon or the other has a Focus Sash. Azumarill, on the other hand, doesn't give a shit.

BALK (Azumarill) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 200 HP / 212 Atk / 96 Def
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall/Superpower
- Play Rough
- Superpower/Protect

Azumarill's typing and stats allow it to switch into Knock Offs, Close Combats and even Rock Slides with ease. Water and Fairy-type both kill Terrakion, and Bisharp gets slaughtered by Superpower. Alternatively, you can choose to run Protect, but Bisharp gives you a much harder time (you still 2HKO with Play Rough + Aqua Jet and LO recoil). The EVs ensure that it never gets KO'd by Close Combat + Iron Head.

Defensive Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 200 HP / 96 Def Azumarill: 136-160 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 200 HP / 96 Def Azumarill: 129-152 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 200 HP / 96 Def Azumarill: 117-139 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 28% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 200 HP / 96 Def Azumarill: 195-230 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. -1 200 HP / 96 Def Azumarill: 147-173 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (after Superpower)

Offensive Calcs

212+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 636-752 (233.8 - 276.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
212+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 169-201 (62.1 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 76-90 (27.9 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Of course, if they're running Focus Sash, it's even easier to take hits, and they still get finished off by Aqua Jet.

 

[Pocket]

Scarf Terrakion isn't a great check/counter to this core, since it will be knocked out after taking either Bisharp or Terrakion out (or neither if the opponent predicts correctly with Protect). Azumarill also poses similar issues, with STAB Rock Slide and Iron Head posing as flinching hazards (~49% chance to flinch from one of these moves). Both of these mons require a partner to reliably handle this core.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Skrillex Mushroom (Breloom) @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Protect

The Raveyard (Gengar) @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute / Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Dismantling Terrakion / Bisharp is a tricky task. Typically intimidate does a good job with Physically based cores, however, in this instance Defiant makes switching in Intimidate users a risky strategy. Faster threats would then be a standard answer but, Sucker Punch means Bisharp can circumvent it's low speed to still dish out big damage. Even priority moves such as Fake Out are out of the question due to Quick Guard from Terrakion.

The core is by no means invincible though. The combination of Breloom and Mega Gengar can take advantage of the weaknesses of the core and with some smart play can actually end up in a strong position to take on whatever comes out after the core is KOed through the use of Substitute on Mega Gengar. Jolly Breloom will always outspeed Bisharp and can use Spore to take it out. Meanwhile, Gengar can easily cripple Terrakion with Will-o-Wisp. In the best case scenario Terrakion will have been pressured to Quick Guard to avoid Breloom's Mach Punch so Bisharp can be put to sleep and Terrakion can have been burned at no cost. From there, a Life Orb-boosted Breloom Mach Punch will KO Terrakion so Gengar can have a free Substitute whilst Bisharp Sleeps and then subsequently taken out next turn.

I'm not posting the calcs but I've done them I promise =]
Basically burned CC from LO terrak does not KO Breloom, LO Jolly Breloom Mach Punch always KOs Terrak after a round of brn damage, Rock Slide from burned terrak does jack shit to both.

The only way Terrak / Bisharp wins is through Rock Slide flinch or WoW miss, the issue of WoW miss can be circumvented by using sash Breloom but that means it's harder to end up with gar getting a free sub up at the end.

tl;dr my core ends up with MGar behind a sub after dismantling those two =]

 

[Arcticblast]

Keldeo @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- this slot is irrelevant

Resists Rock, Dark, and Steel. OHKOs both Terrakion and Bisharp. If you don't like to live dangerously, pair with Amoonguss or Jirachi to reduce the chances of a speed tie with Terrakion's Close Combat. Hydro Pump guarantees that you can OHKO Terrakion in the event you switch in on a Knock Off (although without LO, Secret Sword still has a 68% chance to kill it).

The fact that nobody has already posted Keldeo makes me sad

 

[Laga]

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 277-328 (85.4 - 101.2%)

not a counter unless you outplay the speed tie

 

[LightningLuxray]

Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 108 HP / 152 Atk / 104 Def / 144 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off

Mach Punch shits on Bisharp and has a 85% chance to 2HKO Terrak, Drain Punch heals off any damage it takes. Iron Head + Close Combat takes it out, but if they go for that Bisharp dies to Mach Punch. Does well with a partner who outspeeds Terrak and can OHKO both, so basically a fast physical attacker with a Fighting-type move.

 

[finally]

Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 108 HP / 152 Atk / 104 Def / 144 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off

Mach Punch shits on Bisharp and has a 85% chance to 2HKO Terrak, Drain Punch heals off any damage it takes. Iron Head + Close Combat takes it out, but if they go for that Bisharp dies to Mach Punch. Does well with a partner who outspeeds Terrak and can OHKO both, so basically a fast physical attacker with a Fighting-type move.

what are those evs fren?

 

[Anty]

Needs to be mega evolved before hand which is quite abit to ask for


Anyways Electrolyte are we posting Indiv mons or another two mon core? Since if we're posting just a single mon, there is essentially nothing that beats both terra sharp.

I have protect so i can mega evolve first.

Also it can be a two poke core:

It will be up to you guys to post counters to that core, either another pair or a single Pokemon.

 

[Arcticblast]

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 277-328 (85.4 - 101.2%)

not a counter unless you outplay the speed tie

I see you don't like to live dangerously

 

[LightningLuxray]

finally EVs are from the analysis and Haruno no because Mach Punch OHKO's Bisharp before it can get off the second attack :o

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Terrak can stop Mach Punch with QUICK GUARD

 

[LightningLuxray]

Terrak can stop Mach Punch with QUICK GUARD

But then they don't OHKO you :OOOO

 

[LightningLuxray]

You're forced to win constant 50-50's to make conkelderp win though.

I've found that most of the time the opponent will just switch out both mons not wanting to risk it. There's also the fact that as long as you pair is with something that can KO / cripple Terrakion, you can safely Mach Punch Bisharp without too much worry. I've been using Sleep Powder Mega Venusaur to Sleep Powder Terrakion and then Mach Punch Bisharp, so if Terrakion goes for Quick Guard turn 1 you can just Sleep Powder Terrakion and then proceed to Mach Punch Bisharp the turn after that.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Didn't we consider keldeo not a valid answer to the core since outplaying the coin flip isn't reliable? I feel similar reasons could be stated for conkelderp

Ok I'll retract my nomination lol.

 

[Hobo Joe]

Spec's Orb'd Kingdra in the rain seems to be a decent check.

Kingdra @ Choice Specs Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Modest Nature
- Muddy Water
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam/Protect
- Hydro Pump

In the rain, Kingdra outspeeds both Terrakion and Bisharp along with OHKOing both of them with Muddy Water. Kingdra is 2HKO'd by a LO Sucker Punch from Adamant Bisharp and has a less than 50% chance of being OHKO'd by a LO Terrakion Close Combat.

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion in Rain: 673-795 (208.3 - 246.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Muddy Water vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp in Rain: 253-300 (93 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OHKO if Bisharp takes LO recoil)
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 265-313 (90.7 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OHKO if Kingdra takes LO recoil)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 188-224 (64.3 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The only ways for Kingdra to go down is to whiff on Bisharp; whiff on Terrakion while Bisharp protects and lose the damage roll; whiff on Terrakion and die to the combined Sucker Punch + Close Combat. But that's what Politoed is for.
Smogon keeps on crashing on me (most likely server errors or something), so I'll put up Politoed a little bit later.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Hobo Joe, Choice Specs isn't an optimal item on Kingdra imo. If I were you I would give Kingdra a Life Orb or something and use Helping Hand Politoed as the teammate to assure it gets the KO =]

 

[Hobo Joe]

Hobo Joe, Choice Specs isn't an optimal item on Kingdra imo. If I were you I would give Kingdra a Life Orb or something and use Helping Hand Politoed as the teammate to assure it gets the KO =]

Yeah, I was looking at Orb calcs and forgot that Bisharp would have been dealt recoil so an Orb'd Kingdra will do the exact same things and won't lock you into a move, so I just edited the LO set in.

Also I skipped out on Gen 5 and totally didn't know that Politoed got Helping Hand :|

 

[Electrolyte]

An underrated threat (that I would typically not bring up but most of the more standard answers have already been given so)

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Trait: Dry Skin
Adamant nature
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Fake Out / Gunk Shot
- Protect

Toxicroak really doesn't care about anything Terrakion has to offer and can easily OHKO Bisharp with Drain Punch, replenishing any health lost from CC / RSlide / Sucker Punch. Neither can 2HKO Toxicroak (except Bisharp's Iron Head) so switching in is pretty easy.

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 330-393 (102.1 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 614-723 (225.7 - 265.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This set is most optimally used on Rain teams where it can take advantage of Dry Skin to recover Life Orb recoil. It's a great check to Fighting-types and bulky Water-types. Also tackles Fairy-types well, shit this thing is really antimeta, just keep it away from Landorus-T and Zard Y please


EDIT @ Below:
Togekiss / Amoonguss please ;_;