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Counter that DW Pokemon!

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by Birkal, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    "DEE DOUBLE YOU!!" (open)
    [​IMG]



    Hello! Many of you have seen this layout of a project before in the other subforums in DST. The basic idea is that one user posts a Pokemon allowed within the DW tier with its complete moveset. The next poster then can choose any Pokemon they'd like (that's allowed within the tier) to counter it. Then the following poster counters THAT Pokemon that was used to counter the first threat. And so the circle of life continues.

    I feel that the new DW subforum has the potential to make full use of one of these topics by melding our previous knowledge of sets from standard OU with those of this newer tier. In my opinion, it's more imperative to have a countering thread here more than in any other subforum. Perhaps it will help ease the endless masses of BW OU players into our varied tier and get more players involved. Simple enough? Good. However, there are a few rules:


    • Please reserve the Pokemon that you are going to counter. If it ends up that someone posted before you because you didn't see their reservation, tough luck; delete your post and counter the next Pokemon! Please edit in your revision within 20 minutes of reserving.

    • List the entire moveset of the Pokemon you are countering with. This includes abilities, moves, items, natures, EVs, and the like. Sprites are also highly recommended (they can be found here). Be as creative as you like with these sets. That's half the fun!

    • Provide reasoning for your choice, the more detailed, the better. This is a learning experience for everyone, not a "let me show you how good I am at the pogeymans" experience. As we venture forth in this semi-unexplored tier, it'd be excellent to have some concrete reasoning behind our thoughts!

    • If a proposed counter is not actually a surefire counter, feel free to discuss this. Also propose remedies to the problems to help further everyone's understanding! However, that proposed counter is still the next Pokemon in line to receive a new counter. So don't post new sets even if you think the original one is wrong.

    • Discussion is allowed and encouraged! Try to be as thoughtful as you can be within this topic. Please keep it civil though; no put downs.

    If you have any questions, feel free to send me off a PM or VM! If we ever get lost, I'll try my best to upright our capsizing ship of a discussion. Best of luck to everyone! Let's begin.


    [​IMG]
    Serperior @ Life Orb
    Ability: Contrary
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Leaf Storm
    - Giga Drain
    - HP Ice
    - Taunt

    Credit goes to Cherub Agent for suggesting this set in the Serperior topic. It sparked quite a bit of discussion, and with good reason! When combining Serperior's respectable Base 113 Speed stat with Contrary Leaf Storm, we're dealing with a major powerhouse. Giga Drain helps recover HP lost from Life Orb and Sandstorm, while HP Ice gives us a fighting chance against Dragon-types and other Grass-types. Taunt is another fantastic choice that prevents slower Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Blissey from setting up on us.
  2. HardCore

    HardCore

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    [​IMG]

    Genesect @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 164 Atk / 92 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Flamethrower
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    Genesect easily counters this Serperior set completely on the account that both of the moves are halved in damage and Genesect will out speed next turn with a powerful stabbed Uturn. Genesect is one of the best revengers in the meta-game at the time and is also a great scouter. With this spread and coverage regardless of which stat you receive a boost in Genesect will be effective unless the move is predicted and completely countered. Genesect is a very hard Pokemon to counter because a +1 stabbed U turn does 34.3% - 40.3% to Eviolite Chansey and 42.1% - 49.8% to Blissey. (I used a Scizor with this attack stat +1 vs the two in the Smogon Damage Calculator. Genesect is therefore extremely hard to counter and can hit every Pokemon in the meta-game effectively.
  3. AOPSUser

    AOPSUser

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    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 HP / 52 SpD / 204 Spe
    Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    -Lava Plume
    -Stealth Rock
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Earth Power

    Heatran easily counters Genesect by switching in on any move bar Thunderbolt and either setting up SR on the switch or just Lava Plume-ing Genesect. The given EVs maximize Special Defense while packing enough Speed to outrun max Speed Magnezone.
  4. Wrave

    Wrave

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    Time for the enevitable

    Ditto @Choice Scarf
    Ability: Eccentric
    -Transform

    Ditto can come in and Transform into Heatran. Since Heatran doesn't have a Balloon, Earth Power does its job thanks to the Scarf allowing it to Revenge Kill.
  5. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    Keldeo @ Leftovers
    Timid
    Calm Mind
    - Sacred Sword
    - Hydro Pump
    - Calm Mind
    - Hidden Power Ghost

    Since all you can do is use Earth Power then Keldeo can come in and set up as many Calm Minds as it wants.

    :/
  6. The Reptile

    The Reptile make it rain
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    Toxicroak @ Life Orb
    Dry Skin
    Adamant
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    - Swords Dance
    - Cross Chop
    - Sucker Punch
    - Ice Punch

    Resists Sacred Sword and gains HP from Hydro Pump, while unSTABed HP Ghost isn't doing jack shit. He can then set up all over his face and destroy with Cross Chop.
  7. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    Chandelure @ Leftovers
    Shadow Tag
    Timid
    252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Acid Armor
    - Flamethrower

    Takes little from Toxicroak's attacks and can set up on it all day as Sucker Punch won't work until Chandelure's ready to kill.
  8. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Kingdra (F) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Outrage
    - Substitute


    Chandelure's only attack is well resisted by Kingdra, who can proceed to Substitute and Dragon Dance away.
  9. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    Assuming Kingdra came in on Chandelure after it had shat all over Toxicroak with all that Calm Minding/Acid Armoring it done, Kingdra would be nearly 2HKO by it's Flamethrower.

    4 +6 SpAtk Chandelure Flamethrower vs 104 HP/0 SpDef Kingdra: 46.37% - 54.57%
    2-3HKO

    Since Kingdra is slower than Chandy, if Chandy had a Sub up and +6 in Defense from Acid Armor, it would require two Waterfall just to break it's Sub.

    252 Atk Kingdra Waterfall vs 252 HP/0 +6 Def Chandelure: 18.52% - 22.22%
    6-8 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Edit: Mind you, this is assuming that their entry hazards on both side the field or the weather is neutral.
  10. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    The turns in which Chandy uses to set up means that it won't be anywhere near max HP when Kingdra is summoned, assuming Toxicroak also set up to +6; by this point, Chandelure doesn't even have one Calm Mind under its belt.

    Ice Punch breaks Substitute after a second blow, and to avoid a critical hit/freeze, Chandelure must Substitute in and amongst setting up Calm Mind.

    It would be close, but I did reply on the basis that it was set-for-set, and not the situation in which a Pokemon has set up because all we have to do is throw in ScarfDitto everytime something that boosts it stats lol.
  11. Gothic Togekiss

    Gothic Togekiss
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    Took freeze into consideration, but forget about Toxicroak +2 Ice Punch has enough power to break Chandy Sub or it alternating between Sword Dance and Ice Punch to wilt it's foe down.

    I took this whole thing as "Find a counter to the previous Pokemon given the situation created from said Pokemon" meaning one should assume it had put down a Sub and/or boosted it stat(s).
  12. Birkal

    Birkal We have the technology.
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    Taylor is right on this one. We're just countering the set listed before us, without all of the stat boosts/setting up. This topic basically is, "this new threat switched in, what can I switch in safely and immediately?" I hope that helps clarify things!
  13. HardCore

    HardCore

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    [​IMG]

    Ferrothorn (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Power Whip
    - Stealth Rock
    - Leech Seed / Thunder Wave
    - Protect

    Ferrothorn is the second Steel Pokemon that is used to counter Kingdra. Defensive/Mixed Ferrothorn is very viable in the meta-game and could easily defeat this set even after using SR while Kingdra uses Dragon dance or switches. Ferrothorn is also free to use Leech Seed or Thunder Wave against the Pokemon that is coming in for Kingdra. Kingdra can not do much to Ferrothorn at all with this set and would be hurting himself against Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs in the process.

    * I think this thread should only have viable counters rather than just making up a random set that can counter the Pokemon above. I am not saying that the counters haven't been viable in the meta-game so far however.*
  14. Garganator

    Garganator

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    [​IMG]

    Heracross @ Choice Band
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe (Although more bulkier spread with much less speed may be even better in case of Thunder-Wave)
    Adamant (+Atk, -SpA) or Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
    ~ Megahorn
    ~ Close Combat
    ~ Stone Edge
    ~ Night Slash / Pursuit

    While it's really rare, it safely switches on all moves this Ferrothorn can use and smash it back with CB Close Combat (although it can loose quite a bit of HP if it switches into Leech Seed) and beat it 1vs1. If it switches on T-Wave - then you have a powerhouse, which can OHKO pretty much everything. Also when you look at top20 in Dream World OU you may notice that ONLY one Pokemon from top20 (guess which one :P) can safely switch into this Heracross while not risking OHKO or 2HKO (and SR must be up), especially with activated Guts.
  15. UltiMario

    UltiMario

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    I really don't think slashes should be used ever. It can change what counters each mon.

    Just throwing that out there.
  16. HardCore

    HardCore

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    Considering the fact that the goal is to help new players develop skills in DW OU I think that it is more realistic if the countering Pokemon has a slash or two because not everyone runs the same moves, just similar evs. You can't ever draw a set down to 4 moves unless its an extremely standard set. For example if you see a Scizor you can't assume it is CB, LO, or Iron Plate, however it can still counter Tyranitar with each set. Each set carries different moves, but the Pokemon is the first thing you see.
  17. kuja20

    kuja20

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    [​IMG]

    Gliscor @ Flight Gem
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EV's: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
    Nature: Jolly / Adamant

    - Acrobatics
    - Earthquake
    - Swords Dance
    - Roost / Substitute

    Even without any HP or Defence investment, Gliscor will not be OHKO'd by any of Heracross' moves. The following is the damage taken by an Adamant, Choice Banded Heracross which uses Stone Edge with Guts activated.

    Doesn't even OHKO after rocks. Since it would be locked into rocks, Gliscor could simply Roost off the damage, or OHKO Heracross with Acrobatics.

    Without Guts, however:

    Gliscor can run max Speed, instead of 176 (which aims to outrun Jolly Max speed Heracross) and still produce the same effect. But for the purposes of beating that set in particular, a little extra bulk never hurts. If Heracross is paralysed, running a fully defensive set with Toxic Orb with Protect would probably be more beneficial.
  18. HardCore

    HardCore

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    A paralysed power house isn't going to do a thing vs the opponents team unfortunately. Although it would beat Ferrothorn in one on one in standard game play the opponent could use Thunder Wave or Leech Seed then Protect. After that they'd simply switch, leaving Hera useless or injured. I know you've made a counter but is Herracross even applicable in DW OU. A lot of Pokemon outclass it including the fact that Chandelure doesn't have to come in after Heracross attacks. It can come in whenever it wants most of the time especially if Ferrothorn is using Protect.
  19. Garganator

    Garganator

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    Sry, I said it in a bit wrong way. What I meant is that with Guts up, even when paralyzed, he will hit really hard so not many things will enjoy switching on hits as hard as those. Of course he won't sweep or crush teams on his own, especially with T-Wave, but as I mentioned - only Gliscor on top20 can safely switch on him and he has ok bulk and decent resistances to get in. Although I agree that he has few serious flaws, which may discourage many players to bother with him, mostly his speed (although on hit and run it's not as serious issue as on sets which needs to stay in few turns like SD) and heavy dependence on predictions. When it goes to power he isn't really outclassed just because of STAB Megahorn and extremely strong STAB Close Combat. But yes, he needs a team built around him, not the other way around. Chandelure is a problem too, but it's still possible to play around. For me worked fine, but I admit that for many players it may not be worth it. Maybe I should have used more common and easier to put into team example in this thread after all... Next time, I'll take this into account.
  20. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    obviously~

    skarmory @ leftovers
    252 hp / 252 def / 4 speed
    -spikes
    -brave bird
    -roost
    -whirlwind

    set up spikes then whirlwind gliscor away. the only way you're losing is if you miss whirlwind like 4 times in a row.
  21. AOPSUser

    AOPSUser

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    Magnezone @ Leftovers
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 Spe
    Nature: Modest
    -Substitute
    -Thunderbolt
    -Charge Beam
    -Hidden Power Fire

    You saw it coming. T-Bolt Skarmory, watch it survive with Sturdy and Whirlwind you out, then either KO it with your next Pokemon or watch it die to SR later.
  22. GrassBlade

    GrassBlade

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    Reserving...
    How about an old favorite with a twist:

    Set: Swampert!!!
    Swampert@Choice Scarf
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 200 Attack/252 Speed/54 HP
    Nature: Jolly
    -Earthquake
    -Ice Punch
    -Waterfall/Aqua Tail
    -Hammer Arm/Superpower

    Swampert easily comes into Magnezone and threathens immediate ko. Respectable natural bulk with Max Speed + Scarf reaching 360 Speed meaning you'll outsped all non-scarfed base 114's and speed tie with HP Fire Starmie. Waterfall and Earthquake for STAB, Ice Punch for Dragons, and Hammer Arm may be preferred as against ferrothorn you will still outspeed after one Hammer Arm. Torrent is always something to fall back on.
  23. jamashawalker

    jamashawalker

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    Bulky offensive Celebi
    Celebi@ leftovers
    252 HP/56 defense/200 SpAtk
    Modest(+Spatk/-atk)
    -Nasty Plot
    -Leaf storm
    -HP ice
    -Recover

    Swampert can not 2HKO with Ice punch while it can recover off the damage. Since most of celebi's counters to this set have already been mentioned. Its really simple to sweep to sweep after a Nasty Plot.
  24. AOPSUser

    AOPSUser

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    Scizor @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
    Nature: Jolly
    Ability: Technician
    -Swords Dance
    -Bug Bite
    -Bullet Punch
    -Brick Break

    Bug Bite OHKOs without the attack boost. Scizor can then either KO with Bug Bite or start setting up Swords Dance. Since Celebi has HP Ice, it has no way to take down Scizor.
  25. HardCore

    HardCore

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    First I would like to say how the Bulky offense Celebi set and Bulk SD scizor set are both terrible in the meta-game. The meta-game is currently filled with powerful Pokemon that completely destroy these two Pokemon. Not only does Scarf Chandelure make both of these sets look silly, but Genesect also. You'd have to be packing major counters to both Pokemon just to set up two bad coverage and weak sets. These sets aren't fit for DW OU in the slightest way unfortunately. I hope I don't come off too offensive but how can a thread ,that is supposed to help people adjust to the meta-game, filled with poor sets help anyone get better.

    Sets posted here should be standard or personal sets that are successful or at least viable in the DW OU meta-game.

    I've already used Genesect to counter another Pokemon in this thread although it defeats and completely counters the last two posts just like Chandelure.

    [​IMG]
    (3rd Gen Blaziken Sprite)

    Blaziken (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Flare Blitz
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Shadow Claw

    Lets keep it plain and simple with full offense Blaziken. Blaziken can SD against Scizor or choose to OHKO with Flare Blitz while still receiving a speed boost after KOing Scizor. The decision would be simple to make based on Scizor not having LO and being + 0 or 2. Blaziken could easily set up against either considering this Scizor set has 4 attack evs and is jollly nature O_O. Your team now has to deal with a +2 attack +1 Ken or just +1 either way no one should run sets that are just plane old Blaziken bait. It would simply end the game faster in the favor of the Blaziken user. (Whoever attempts to counter this pokemon please try and give a viable counter to +2 attack +2 speed Blaziken, which would be the result of the user using SD on Scizor.)

    Scizor and Celebi are really bad to use currently in this meta-game. Maybe once it settles down they can creep out of their holes. Celebi first then maybe Scizor, although I doubt Genesect will be ruled Uber right away if ever.

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