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Project Counter that Threat! 21st Week: Snover - Counters Submissions

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Wynaut @ Berry Juice
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 132 Def / 52 SpD / 172 Spe
Bold Nature
- Encore
- Counter
- Destiny Bond
- Mirror Coat

So you come in on anything, and click Destiny Bond. The next turn you Encore, the switch to virtually anything else on your team that is able to KO the Encored Shellder at -3.

236+ Atk Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 132+ Def Wynaut: 15-20 (55.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 236+ Atk Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 132+ Def Wynaut: 25-30 (92.5 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Thanks to Berry Juice, Wynaut takes these hits on the chin and doesn't care about rolls really.
 
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Fran17 said:
Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Endure
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Recycle

Magnemite can switch on all the Shellder's moves without taking too much damage
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With SR up as it should be considered when talking about a counter, its a 50/50 whether you lose so not a counter. If you endure it can icicle spear and you'll bj will be taken away along with you lacking full health.
+2 236+ Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 10-15 (52.6 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
If you don't endure razor shell, gg.

+2 236+ Atk Shellder Razor Shell vs. 76 HP / 132+ Def Wynaut: 19-24 (70.3 - 88.8%) --
6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)
Onto wynaut now idk if this would count since its only 6.3% but just bringing it up.
oh yeah and the fact you need perfect prediction makes it unreliable.
 
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Oh, well if we are going to be debunking people then I'll join in. Relaxed 19 defense ferro is a little unusual but it's cool to see someone else put giga drain on ferro. Anyways

236+ Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-15 (41.6 - 62.5%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO (2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)

With BJ ferro could be 100% reliable counter but BJ is really uncommon item on ferro compared to eviolite. Eviolite makes no difference in the damage rolls of an unboosted icicle spear from shellder.

That chinchou can not be debunked. Since it's defensive with berry juice it can survive a +2 rockblast even after rocks and even with a crit or two. You'd basically need at least 3 rockblasts to crit. The only thing I'd say is that a volt switch onto a nonboosted shellder won't kill it from 100%. You'd want at least 14 special attack and thunderbolt to have a good chance to take it out. I would say chinchou counters shellder reguardless.

0 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

152 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

236+ Atk Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 15-20 (60 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)

+2 236+ Atk Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 25-30 (100 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO (5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6) Obviously BJ activates but showing calc anyways
 
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Stratis said:
Oh, well if we are going to be debunking people then I'll join in. Relaxed 19 defense ferro is a little unusual but it's cool to see someone else put giga drain on ferro. Anyways

236+ Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-15 (41.6 - 62.5%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO (2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)

With BJ ferro could be 100% reliable counter but BJ is really uncommon item on ferro compared to eviolite. Eviolite makes no difference in the damage rolls of an unboosted icicle spear from shellder.

That chinchou can not be debunked. Since it's defensive with berry juice it can survive a +2 rockblast even after rocks and even with a crit or two. You'd basically need at least 3 rockblasts to crit. The only thing I'd say is that a volt switch onto a nonboosted shellder won't kill it from 100%. You'd want at least 14 special attack and thunderbolt to have a good chance to take it out. I would say chinchou counters shellder reguardless.

0 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

152 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

236+ Atk Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 15-20 (60 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)

+2 236+ Atk Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 25-30 (100 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO (5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6) Obviously BJ activates but showing calc anyways
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no one should ever run bj or giga drain ferro seriously tbh, but yeah bj would counter the set, nice calc. chou calc doesn't mean squat though since it does have bj
 
Stratis said:
Oh, well if we are going to be debunking people then I'll join in. Relaxed 19 defense ferro is a little unusual but it's cool to see someone else put giga drain on ferro. Anyways

236+ Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 188+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-15 (41.6 - 62.5%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO (2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)

With BJ ferro could be 100% reliable counter but BJ is really uncommon item on ferro compared to eviolite. Eviolite makes no difference in the damage rolls of an unboosted icicle spear from shellder.

That chinchou can not be debunked. Since it's defensive with berry juice it can survive a +2 rockblast even after rocks and even with a crit or two. You'd basically need at least 3 rockblasts to crit. The only thing I'd say is that a volt switch onto a nonboosted shellder won't kill it from 100%. You'd want at least 14 special attack and thunderbolt to have a good chance to take it out. I would say chinchou counters shellder reguardless.

0 SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

152 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

236+ Atk Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 15-20 (60 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)

+2 236+ Atk Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 25-30 (100 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO (5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6) Obviously BJ activates but showing calc anyways
Click to expand...

Thanks for finding that hole, but I don't know of any situation where Shellder would fire off an attack at the risk of a hit., especially when it has such a small chance to cripple Ferro. It's sorta in the same situation as BJ chou in that it's fucked if it predicts the switch, rob the BJ, and come back at +2
 
kingmidas said:
we just disproved 3 of those 4 mons, theres no mons to vote for except chou
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I don't see anything wrong with Wynaut as a counter. You don't need perfect prediction; he explains it perfectly in his post. That being said, it can only counter it once and loses if spikes are on the field as well, so I'm voting for tazz's Chinchou.
 
I got to go with tazz chou as well. So often chinchou is the go to answer. On another note, it is really difficult to hard counter LC threats.
 
chinchou i guess

though it's undeniable that mag and ferro are pretty solid checks as well, all this 'disproving' doesn't mean that they won't work really well in an in-game scenario.

but seriously there's a bunch of bulky waters that can take on shellder that no-one mentioned.

twave slowpoke seriously fucks it up. bulky tirt gives almost no fucks. not to mention the standard bulky pokemon such as physically defensive porygon.

I guess the fact it's difficult to fully hard counter makes this difficult, but the thing with this project is it doesn't take into account many in-game scenarios, shellder is a lot more easy to deal with than this thread has suggested.
 
Rowan said:
chinchou i guess

though it's undeniable that mag and ferro are pretty solid checks as well, all this 'disproving' doesn't mean that they won't work really well in an in-game scenario.

but seriously there's a bunch of bulky waters that can take on shellder that no-one mentioned.

twave slowpoke seriously fucks it up. bulky tirt gives almost no fucks. not to mention the standard bulky pokemon such as physically defensive porygon.

I guess the fact it's difficult to fully hard counter makes this difficult, but the thing with this project is it doesn't take into account many in-game scenarios, shellder is a lot more easy to deal with than this thread has suggested.
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The problem is multihitting attacks and dmg rolls. It also depends on if you consider a true counter capable of switching in and killing a poke or if it's sufficient as a soft counter that can switch in and cripple/damage that poke. I fully admit that when disproving things like ferro thorn it was unfair on my part. Those damage calcs are based on max damage rolls using a multiattacking move. Ferroseed is still a counter to shellder unless you get really unlucky/predicted.

It's not hard to predict the attack to switch in on and honestly the damage rolls are only a big deal if they get max damage rolls a lot which is very unlikely. (2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3) Is the rolls you see on almost everything for neutral, unboosted damage and the 3 rolls are what would give pokes problems for countering. Obviously crits are a concern as well though cause when you hit 5 times with every attack it's not that unlikely to get at least one crit an attack.

There is a variety of soft counters but as a hard counter in LC threats you are often forced to reliably kill/threaten it in the turn after you switch in or the switched in poke will die first. For shellder, chinchou is the best option with it's unique typing and largely because chinchou is a poke who is commonly known for using berry juice, unlike ferroseed. Mulihitting attacker like shellder will definitely activate berry juice. Ferroseed is also a good option with a thunderwave + bulletseed/giga drain combination. Other pokes like slowpoke can switch in and thunderwave shellder with very little risk. However, after they thunderwave it's not necessarily easy to land a kill. It can zen heatbutt for para flinch or curse depending on the set and have a chance to kill it or force it out. Being able to switch in and para a SS user in LC is almost as strong as being able to switch into to it and kill it.

Now that you bring it up slowpoke is a decent counter. I'd rank it 1. chinchou 2. ferroseed 3. slowpoke. If you can't kill or at least paralyze it as a bulky water then it's not really a counter to switch into shellder. I'm not comfortable with wynaut as a counter cause there is too much risk. I mean how do you know it won't shellsmash twice or attack on the switch in, activating BJ, then SS as you use counter... You can't risk going for an encore if you switch in to it and if you do it was a great prediction.

Edit: As for magnemite it's too dependant on whether stealth rocks are on the field. If they are then magnemite will just die to a +2 razorshell. With rocks up it would have to be an eviolite magnemite with minor bulk which would be somewhat different to it's usual sturdy juice or scarf variants.
 
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Just going to point out that shellder not only has to predict perfectly, but has to risk losing a shitton of momentum as you lose an opportunity to set up. As Rowan's said, these situations that "disprove" arent really seen in actual play. Additionally, it's a very small chance to 2hko (less than 1/8). The chance of that happening when you add in that it requires excellent prediction is incredibly small to the point of it being negligible.
 
So yeah, Chinchou wins.

This week's Pokémon is:

pawniard.gif

Pawniard @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
 
Are you kidding me. This is such a waste of a week. At least Lo is getting some discussion.

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Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- U-turn
-Acrobatics



236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 4-6 (19 - 28.5%) -- 18.9% chance to 4HKO
(4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
two high rolls = 19 hp/21 hp and
0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Pawniard: 36-48 (171.4 - 228.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
10 hp recovery + regen
 
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