Project Counter That Pokemon 2! (Round 12 - Submissions) [Closed?]

[Eraxxer]

Approved by Aragorn the King
Original thread here
Huge thanks to Tressed for the last thread​

Counter That Pokemon 2!

(If anyone can make artwork, I'll gladly put it up here)
_______________________________________________________
How It Works
Counter That Pokemon focuses on the construction of 2 teams, both built specifically to counter each other, whereupon the teams will face each other to decide which team is the best. The teambuilding process is simple. The teams, Team A and Team B, will be built one Pokemon at a time in a Snake Draft format - that is, Team A picks one Pokemon, then Team 2, then Team 2 again, then Team 1, Team 1 again, and repeat, until each team has 6 Pokemon. Each selected Pokemon is chosen with the aim to counter the opposing team as best as possible. The chosen Pokemon is decided with the aim to simultaneously provide synergy with the current team, counter the opposing team and make it difficult for the opposing team to make team choices in the future.

Last time, a large problem was encountered, being that Team 2's final pick needs to account for literally every single possible Pokemon, while Team 1 could just find a weakness and exploit it with their final pick. Because of this, Team 2 will get the choice to change one moveslot on one of their Pokemon following Team 1's final choice.

TEAM 1 AND TEAM 2 ARE JUST POKEMON TEAMS. YOU CAN SUBMIT IDEAS FOR BOTH TEAMS.

The project will take place in rounds. Each round has a submission period and a voting period. The submission period will last around 5 days to a week and anyone can submit Pokemon with the aim of countering the opposing team (Team 1's first selection will just be a Pokemon that they find difficult for the opposing team to counter), following which submissions will be discontinued and the voting period will begin. The voting period will last 2 days in which users with at least 25 posts on Smogon can submit their choices. This is the same as in the previous thread, and is aimed at preventing people from creating new accounts to vote multiple times. Users may discuss potential choices between each other during both periods.

After the teams are made, two battlers will be selected to play off in a best of 3 series to decide the better team.

_______________________________________________________

Rules
1. Be nice. Don't act superior to others if you think you're better, because each person is (hopefully) genuinely trying to contribute.

2. Don't screw around. There are genuine reasons to run lower tiered Pokemon, but that doesn't mean you should be submitting Raticate.

3. Leave an explanation as to why you picked your nomination. Doesn't have to be especially long or anything, but explain why. We don't want to just see a set copy-pasted from Showdown with no explanation.

4. Only one nomination each round per user.

5. No slashes in movesets. You can have a slash if you want feedback from other users as to what you should put in that slot, but if there is a slash on your moveset by the end of the submission period, it will not move through to the voting.

6. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me

_______________________________________________________

So, that's all there is to it. Have fun in Counter That Pokemon!

​

 

[Eraxxer]

Team 1

Sets

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Def / 156 SpD
Careful Nature
- Waterfall
- Thunder Wave
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power Fire
- Defog

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power Ice

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 240 HP / 176 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Dragon Tail
-Swords Dance

Manectric @ Manectite
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
IV: 30 SpD
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power Steel

Team 2

Sets

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-Turn
- Superpower
- Pursuit

Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 32 Atk / 224 Def / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
-Moonblast
-Diamond Storm
-Earth Power
-Protect

Tornadus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 96 HP / 160 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hurricane
- Iron Tail
- Knock Off
- U-turn

 

[bludz]

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]

So last time when we built the teams, AoA Gengar was the winner for team 1. What this did was force a mostly passive pokemon by team 2. Dragalge was a decent answer although ultimately not a true counter anyway and it lead to Team 1 IMO being overall better.

Anyway Team 1 sort of has an advantage since it can dictate by forcing counters. That's why I wanted to choose a pokemon with very few counters; a powerful wallbreaker makes the ideal starting point for team 1 as it pushes team 2 into very limited options which can be countered in turn fairly well.

I know the thread is named counter that pokemon, but if team 2 wants to not have their team dictated I think we should start focusing more on utilizing good checks if possible. This allows for counterplay, but the teambuild won't be constricted to actually countering something (since team 1 can pick something thats very hard to counter).

 

[urban]

As bludz said, the choice of the first two mons kinda led to an overwhelming advantage for the team that started out with Gengar the last time we did this project. I think a lot of this was due to the choice of some mons that can be hard to build around from a synergistic standpoint (i.e. Dragalge is hella difficult to build around). That being said, I agree with Bludz in choosing a mon that is difficult to counter, but it would also be cool to leave Team 2 with some options from any/every playstyle as far as counters go. For these reasons, I want to nominate the long-standing King of ORAS OU:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave

Clefable has staked its claim as an S rank threat in ORAS OU for longer than I've been on Smogon. A ton of Clefable's usefulness comes by virtue of this set, which has remained potent through months metagame shifts. There's really not much else to explain as everyone is aware of what Calm Mind + Magic Guard Clef is capable of. Options for counters are somewhat limited, as a lot of steels hate getting paralyzed, but there do exist counters across all playstyles, so Team 2 does have some freedom in that regard. On a similar note, Clefable is incredibly easy to build around because it checks so goddamn much, so there will be a plethora of options for Team 1's second mon as well.

 

[Random Passerby]

Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Taunt

Tornadus-T is one of the most annoying Pokemon to face in OU as it resides in an excellent Speed tier and can simply U-turn out of checks or spam Hurricane, which hits decently hard, thanks to the difficulty in finding a non-passive Flying resist in OU (outside of Electrics). Superpower is used to hit Tyranitar, Bisharp and Heatran hard while as stated, U-turn gives you momentum and allows you to replenish health lose to Life Orb due to Regenerator. Taunt is a nice option on the fourth slot to shut down recovery and prevents the opponent from setting up.

EDIT: I am considering Iron Tail there because it can at 2HKO Clefable and OHKO Mega Diancie so feedback is appreciated.

 

[Albacore]

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute

In the same vein as theurbandear, I'm going to suggest a Pokemon which is very effective, fits on multiple playstyles, and has a lot of solid partners, but also has a large enough pool of viable checks and counters for team 2 to still have a lot of freedom building against it as well. The fact that most answers to it (Keldeo, Azu, Chomp) lack recovery means that Sub DD MGyara can be a pretty effective win condition despite the opponent packing a check to it, so I feel like picking it as team 1's main wincon gives a fair chance to both teams.

 

[Tressed]

Welcome back Eraxxer, glad to see you're getting this going again. I'll be sure to participate for this one.

Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off

Azumarill seems like a solid choice for a first mon. It functions well against all playstyles, functioning as a wallbreaker against bulkier builds while being able to revenge kill and punch holes against offensive teams. It has checks and counters, though its counters tend to be on the passive side or lack ways of healing up, while offensive checks can be punished by switching into the wrong STAB. Generally I wouldn't pick a sweeper or a crucial support mon as a first pick for this project, since it makes it a lot easier for the team to just prevent it from coming in, but Azumarill is really difficult to shut down entirely.

Also Random Passerby, I think Taunt makes for a better option than Iron Tail for a first mon. By picking Iron Tail, we're making sure it's a dead move in almost all matchups since the opposing team just won't use switch ins that are weak to it. On the other hand, Taunt is useful in pretty much every matchup, and Torn can shut down set up opportunities without having to use the move, since the opposing player will know that Torn is carrying it.

 

[Vinc608]

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 240 HP / 104 Def / 12 SpD / 152 Spe
Impish Nature
- Return
- Roost
- Heal Bell
- Dragon Dance

Altaria-Mega fits on every playstyle. If steels are removed, it can be very dangerous, that is why it was in S Rank. It is a solid and effective win condition and has a lot of good partners, like HP Fire Manaphy, Magnezone, etc... A lot of Pokemons can counter this set, so it gives Team 2 some freedom to check Altaria.

 

[shadowed]

Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 160 Atk / 96 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

This thing is a complete monster. Even though it suites more with offensive playstyle, Hoopa-U is still quite good to break through walls like Chansey, Clefable, Heatran, etc. With the right support, it will easily sweep the meta after it checks and counters are gone or weakened. Hoopa-U also has many checks and other mon can easily outspeed it and revenge kill it. But no one likes to switch in into Hoopa-U so it will be hard for team 2 to counter it.

 

[noobcubed]

Vinc608 I feel like Body Slam is preferable to Return on that set within the context of making a Pokemon difficult to counter, as it makes plenty of offensive checks (Gengar, Metagross) think twice about switching in case they are crippled by an untimely paralysis chance, limiting its offensive checks to the likes of Scizor which doesn't care too much about paralysis, or Magnezone which is immune.

 

[Random Passerby]

Vinc608 I feel like Body Slam is preferable to Return on that set within the context of making a Pokemon difficult to counter, as it makes plenty of offensive checks (Gengar, Metagross) think twice about switching in case they are crippled by an untimely paralysis chance, limiting its offensive checks to the likes of Scizor which doesn't care too much about paralysis, or Magnezone which is immune.

The difference in power is very significant though. By running Body Slam, you miss out on the OHKO on Bisharp at +1 after Rocks. Body Slam can't even 2HKO uninvested Gengar and Zard-X, for example, allowing them a chance to hit you back very hard.

 

[Random Passerby]

Sorry for double-posting but it has been quite some time since the last activity. Let's review what has been nominated so far before voting.

AoA HP Fire Kyurem-B : Everyone knows what Kyurem-B does. It gets in and breaks balance and defensive cores. Because of this, Team 1 will limit Team 2 to either play riskily or pick passive Pokemon like Clefable and Cresselia who can switch into it. The weakness to Rocks is annoying with Life Orb but Kyurem-B doesn't need to last very long anyway since it will be forced out each time it gets a kill (because of its average Spe)

Thunder Wave Magic Guard Clefable : Mixed reactions to this one. While I know the merits of Thunder Wave Clefable but picking a relatively passive mon so early means Team 1 is surrendering its advantage of an early pick while allowing Team 2 to pick whatever it wants because Clefable doesn't pressure the opponent outside of Thunder Wave. I know that picking this allows Team 2 to build without much constrains but the one I see it, this allows Team 2 to turn the pressure on Team 1 instead with their next 2 picks.

Substitute Mega Gyarados : This Pokemon only runs its STAB, allowing Team 2 to easily pick mons to hard-counter it, especially this early in the game. I wouldn't be opposed to this later on but picking it this early means the win condition will be much harder to achieve from the get-go. Furthermore, it's a Mega Pokemon and we're only allowed one so I feel we should wait and see whether there are any Megas who can tear through the other team before deciding on it. I know that picking this allows Team 2 to build without much constrains but the one I see it, this allows Team 2 to turn the pressure on Team 1 instead with their next 2 picks.

LO + Taunt Tornadus-T : This is what I nominated. Torn-T's switch-ins are limited to pretty much Electric and Steel-types and they can easily be worn down by Hurricane and hazards while you U-turn out. Superpower also hits Electrics, Tyranitar and certain Steels hard. Taunt allows you to shut down status moves, which can be beneficial. 70% accuracy for Hurricane is a pain though and it does not hit as hard as some people imagine.

CB Azumarill : This one also does basically the same thing as Kyurem-B in the sense that it doesn't have a lot of switch-ins and when it does, they're normally passive Pokemon who lack Recovery (outside of Grass-types), which means they can be taken advantage of. Azumarill's cons such as slow and being locked down into a move is outweighed by its access to priority and strong hitting attacks.

DD Mega Altaria : Mega Altaria has the same problems as Mega Gyarados. It is best played as a win condition but picking it early on is just asking it to be hard-countered (since it cannot muscle past its counters easily with limited offensive presence). Furthermore, it's a Mega Pokemon and we're only allowed one so I feel we should wait and see whether there are any Megas who can tear through the other team before deciding on it. I know that picking this allows Team 2 to build without much constrains but the one I see it, this allows Team 2 to turn the pressure on Team 1 instead with their next 2 picks.

AoA Hoopa : Similar to Kyurem-B and Azumarill, this is a wallbreaker with average Speed. Hoopa-U has almost no safe switch-ins in OU. However, its bad defensive typing and physical bulk means it needs much more support from the rest of the team to do its job.

 

[Eraxxer]

Round 1 Submission Period is now over, Voting has begun

PM me your votes. You can vote for your own submissions.

Vote for your two favorite submissions. Your vote should look like this, with your own selections:

2 Votes: Beedrill

1 Vote: Thundurus

The Pokemon with the most votes at the end of the 2 day voting period will become Team 1's first Pokemon.

Choices:

• Kyurem Black
• Clefable
• Tornadus-Therian
• Mega Gyarados
• Azumarill
• Mega Altaria
• Hoopa-Unbound

Voting ends on the 26th of October

You may keep discussing candidates during this period. Have fun!

 

[AD impish john]

Edit: Why can't I just post my vote here, instead of PM? I'm not trying to sound harsh, but can I have a reason for this?

 

[Eraxxer]

The aim is to prevent bandwagoning. It's preferable to have everyone's own opinions rather than just jumping on board with everyone else :)

 

[Sablenite]

A question please, what if we like a Pokemon, but hate its set mentioned above?

Can we vote stuff Like AV Tornadous-T instead of LO?

 

[Eraxxer]

A question please, what if we like a Pokemon, but hate its set mentioned above?

Can we vote stuff Like AV Tornadous-T instead of LO?

Unfortunately, no. However, during the submissions period you can submit different variations of the same Pokemon. But that means that for this round, you will have to choose from the selection of 7 Pokemon nominated in the submission period if you want to vote.

I will also leave a reminder to anyone that hasn't voted that the voting period will end in around 18 hours, so if you want to vote, do so as soon as possible.

 

[Eraxxer]

Team 1 has chosen Life Orb Kyurem-Black as their first Pokemon!

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Submissions for Round 2 will now begin. Keep in mind that Team 2 will choose a Pokemon for both this round and the round immediately afterwards.

 

[bludz]

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled

Clefable is one of the most reliable counters to Kyurem-Black, especially since this Kyu-B is +Spe and not +SpA. The set is the standard one - Thunder Wave cripples switch-ins and makes it easier to set up for a Calm Mind sweep. Clefable is a great starting point for any team, so this doesn't put Team 2 at a disadvantage of having too passive of a pokemon to counter a wallbreaker.

 

[jordanthejq12]

Well, Scizor's kinda not an option because HP Fire, so...

Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab

AV Conk can take any attack on Kyube's set--even Fusion Bolt--and reliably 1v1 with Drain and Mach Punches. Ice Punch and Poison Jab provide coverage against the likes of Chomp/Lando and Fairies, respectively, while Guts allows this mon to act as a status absorber.

 

[Tressed]

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

Defensively based checks are generally pretty difficult to build around (though Clefable is about as good as you're gonna get in that regard), but an offensive check is a lot easier to work with and creates an immediate need to fix for Team 1 to provide an answer for it. Keldeo can take a hit from any move that isn't Fusion Bolt and threaten the team from there. It's also pretty easy to build around, as its counters are generally Pursuit weak and forcing Team 1 to pick their counter first will allow Team 2 to pick a trapper that can deal with it properly, regardless of what kind of tricks it might run to deter a trap.

 

[Random Passerby]

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Superpower

As long as Stealth Rock is not up, Tyranitar can reliably switch into Kyurem-B (only fearing Earth Power), then proceed to outspeed and OHKO with Stone Edge. Crunch is a reliable secondary STAB move to hit bulky Psychics while Pursuit helps to trap fleeing Ghosts, Psychics and other things Ttar checks. Superpower is used in the last slot to not give Bisharp and Keldeo a free switch-in.

 

[GnralLao]

Both had Keldeo and ScarfTar in mind, but it looks like ninjas got the best of me once more.
Anyway, I'll submit another Dark-type mon, Weavile:

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

Since Kyurem-B lacks Roost, it'll be easily and rapidly worn down by LO recoil and entry hazards (not to mention resisted or weak neutral moves). Therefore, Team 1 is most likely to pick a spinner/defogger to partially solve Roost-less Kyurem-B's problem. Just like ScarfTar, Weavile deals with common spinners and defoggers like Starmie, Lati@s, Excadrill (after little prior damage), Zapdos, etc. and Kyurem-B itself. Of course, it won't be able to reliably switch into Kyurem-B's moves (Ice Beam surprisingly does less than half, but still...), but it'll create a lot of offensive pressure once Weavile is facing it since it'll most likely force Kyurem-B out, making a teammate take a hit (maybe even Knock Off the switch-ins' item) and after that, unlike Keldeo and ScarfTar, Weavile has the option to change moves, which won't (necessarily) give Team 1 a free turn to setup/deal great damage/whatever. Oh and priority is, like always, pretty cool (get it? Ice Shard... cool... ugh, I least I tried).

 

[56k]

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Reversal
- Stealth Rock

Outside of Clef or Sylveon to counter that kyurem set there isn't much out there that easily switches in. Instead here is a more offensive one-time counter. Yes, if sash will be intact, then dugtrio counters that set. Each move of kyu-b brings him down to 1hp and then reversal ohkos after that life orb recoil. Alternatively, if sash is broken but cube has been worn down from rocks and life orb, duggy can come in as a check and do 45-54% with stone edge.

It may end up being that duggy isn't too necessary in the long run to manage kyu-b: it's possible that team 2 just ends up naturally faster and unthreatened by it. It's not hard to envision team2 having 4 things that outspeed and ohko cube anyway. In that case, duggy still retains utility by removing certain picks from team 1's choosing and functioning as a fast rocks lead to get rocks up asap and then die.

Since team 2 gets another pick, it could be a chance to take initiative and choose a partner such as char-y or talonflame in order to exploit what dugtrio does.

Finally, it is generally good policy to choose at least one ground type early in the team building stage and even though dugtrio isn't a bulky ground, it is still immune to volt switch and can trap raikou, manetric, magnezone, etc. Dugtrio can also uniquely take out thundurus-t, something chomp and lando can't do without a scarf.

Does team 1 react with levitators? Then go in with bird spam. Does team 1 react with bulky waters or bulky grounds that don't care about dugtrio? Tack on a timid manaphy. I think team2 has a great opportunity to apply pressure and dictate the flow of these builds and exploit team 1's first (slowish) pick by choosing 2 good offensive pokemons for team 1 to worry about.

 

[TheAweDude]

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 52 SpAtk / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Hyper Voice
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

This is the typical Baton Pass Sylveon, but EV'd to be able to take 2 hits of Bolt Strike and KO back with Hyper Voice (after the 20% recoil from the two hits). It can also, depending on the rest of the team, provide reasonably bulky subs and wishes. Not to mention having a slow-passer in general can help ease prediction or get a frailer threat in safely. The 16 speed EVs is just to speed creep any other base 60s (like Tyranitar), while the 52 SpAtk allow it to deal 80% to Kyube.

Team 1 is going to need a defogger, and a great deal of them are threatened by Hyper Voice or can't threaten Sylveon herself.