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Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    [​IMG]

    Jellicent @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 56 Def / 116 SDef / 88 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Surf
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Recover

    It's about as predictable as a choice would get, but whatever, in my opinion it's clearly the next best step for Team 1 based on Team 2's current choices. While it's obviously a hard counter for both Sub Heatran and Scarf Keldeo, Jellicent's purpose extends much further than that. As Kyurem-B is very dependent on hazard support in order to be functioning most effectively, we'll need a solid spinblocker in order to try and keep Team 1's hazards up for as long as possible, and SDef Jellicent is perhaps the most reliable spinblocker in OU. It also has very good defensive synergy with Kyurem-B: taking the Fighting and Steel attacks frequently thrown at it, and in return Kyurem-B resists the Electric and Grass attacks aimed at Jellicent.
  2. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    Tbh that is probably the best counter team 1 will get as the only other pokes that counter both are weak to stealth rock except a few more bulky waters. You could go for gyarados but it's weak to sr but it does mean we may have another phaser but not really as then heatran can do the same to Kyurem. If gyarados was suggested it'd probably have to be a dd gyarados but with taunt as then it beats both of the other pokes while trying to push them into using another water forcing them not to use rain as 3 waters? Also team 2 will probably try ang get a fire/water/grass core and gyarados kills that too. Only reason I won't suggest it is it forces us to run a spinner which they can use to setup on/ counter easily and I suck at adding sprites.:(
  3. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

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    DarkBlazeR, you beat me to it. Jellicent is the best mon for this scenario, although it is rather Pursuit weak.
  4. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    Will-o-Wisp does mitigate this weakness quite a bit, but yeah it is something that needs to be looked out for. Nothing is flawless though, as Team 2 could come up with a good response to almost anything that we choose.
  5. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    I would say that scald is a generally better stab on jellicent thanks to its burn rate, lets say that it burns more often than will-o-wisp (it always misses)
    Also, a max defense jellicent should be better since keldeo is stopped anyway and the extra bulk on defense can come in handy to stop pursuit users.
  6. DarkBlazeR

    DarkBlazeR

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    I think having both Scald and Will-o-Wisp is a bit redundant, the only scenario I can think of that would warrant having both would be if we were facing something with Taunt. Burn from Scald is still prevented by Substitute/Lum Berry, so it doesn't really help that much.

    From my experience, it's much easier to spinblock with SDef Jellicent since you're not so bothered by Starmie Thunder(bolts). With Will-o-Wisp you're normally fine to just stay in a Pursuit user as they're usually choiced, though obviously CB Tyranitar will still be very threatening with Crunch, so I may consider changing it to a physically defensive set if enough people agree.
  7. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    With 56 EVs, Jellicent will be KOed by 2 pursuits, even if WoW hits after the first pursuit (if WoW misses on Ttar's switch or we don't predict correctly, Jellicent is boned.)

    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Jellicent: 272-324 (67.49 - 80.39%)
    252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Jellicent: 136-162 (33.74 - 40.19%)

    Even with minimum damage rolls, 67 + 33 = 100%, Leftovers is negated by Ttar's sandstorm. So Jellicent needs to hit it on the switch or it will die.

    With 252 Def EVs and a Bold nature, the calcs look like this:
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 255+ Def Jellicent: 200-236 (49.62 - 58.56%)
    252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 255+ Def Jellicent: 100-118 (24.81 - 29.28%)

    Even with max damage rolls, CB Ttar will be unable to 2HKO 248/252+ Jellicent after Stealth Rock (Jelli will live with 1% HP and then be able to stall with Recover (provided WoW hits at least once, but WoW missing twice is highly unlikely).

    This opens up to Starmie's T-bolt being a 2HKO; but I'm honestly more scared of Ttar-Keldeo than Starmie-Keldeo.

    That said, I suggest a different Jellicent

    [​IMG]
    Jellicent @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Night Shade
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Recover

    This one survives CB Pursuits rom both Ttar and Scizor, allowing Jelli to burn and then stall them with Recover if it is unable to burn on the switch. Night Shade provides a reliable neutral attack so that we can prevent faster sub users from setting up on us.

    EDIT: Forgot about Gothithelle. Fk dat, Shed Shell flyfe
  8. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

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    As we all remember, during the team 2 set submission period, Gothitelle was brought up many times during the discussion. Team 2 could actually lure in Jellicent with Keldeo and switch to either a Gothitelle or Tyranitar and trap Jellicent, allowing Keldeo to run rampant.
  9. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Choosing Jellicent means that team 2 successfully forced team 1 to pick defensively. There are other picks out there that can counter these two without having to give up offensive momentum.

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 148 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Pain Split
    - Thunder Wave


    What does this set do? It's Rotom-W, one of the metagame's biggest threats since early BW. Its epic typing gives it strong STAB coverage, STAB Volt Switch, and nifty resistances that lets it switch into common attackers like Heatran and Mamoswine with ease. Volt Switch is its electric STAB that lets it scout out switch-ins keeping momentum for team 1. Rotom-W is forced to have Hydro Pump but that isn't a problem since it is a powerful STAB that can hit the ground types that would love to try to switch in on Volt-Switch. Pain Split is a gift from Rotom's former ghost typing and lets it sap HP from the opponent while healing up its own. Thunder Wave is pretty anti-metagame right now as almost every offensive pokemon that has the resistences to switch into Rotom's STABs won't like being crippled with Paralysis. WoW is cool move but Thunder Wave pretty much cripples everything a burn would and TechniLoom is still going to OHKO Rotom after while burned anyways.

    Calcs (open)
    252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 93-109 (30.69 - 35.97%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Rotom-W: 118-139 (38.94 - 45.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 92-108 (30.36 - 35.64%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 72-86 (23.76 - 28.38%) -- possible 5HKO


    How can this set help the team? It counters both Heatran and Keldeo while maintaining offensive pressure. What more can you want? Spreading Paralysis is also nifty as Kyruem-B can SubRoost stall some of its former checks into FP and grabbing extra boosts while not having to worry as much about getting revenge killed.

    What can the other team do in response to this set? Breloom and Celebii are the only two offensive Pokemon that can repeatedly switch into Rotom-W's attacks while not being completely screwed over by Thunder Wave. Dragon types like Lati@s or Hydreigon can be used by being crippled with Paralysis means they won't be useful for much else.

    What potential additions can be made to deal with these responses? Latios can switch into both of these somewhat well and give a punch back although it won't be liking Spore, Hidden Power Ice, or T-wave much. Tyranitar and Scizor can trap Celebii but have to be careful of HP Fire and Giga Drain/Leaf Storm. Weavile can do so as well but he is fragile and suffers from a SR weakness. Latias can be used over Latios for more bulk to switch in but at the cost of power. A Celebii of your own can take care of Breloom although Spore means it's going to have to switch out. Volcarona can switch into Breloom's STABs and pass a burn but it doesn't like Spore, Stone Edge, or Stealth Rock. Gengar doesn't fear Breloom's Fight STAB and resists the Grass ones but its frailty makes it kinda shaky. Mamoswine and Weavile can outrun Breloom and pick it off with STAB Ice Shard but they aren't switching into it. In general, a sleep talker would be a good thing to have so that all 6 members of the team can be kept to counter the opposing 6.
  10. Phazon00

    Phazon00

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    I'd like to nominate a second, non-Jellicent Pokemon. I feel that this choice can do a lot of damage to the two choices on Team 2, as well as the fact it resists all of Team 2's moves barring the relatively weak Earth Power.
    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt
    - Rapid Spin

    Starmie is a great answer to both Heatran and Keldeo, as it can easily force out Heatran with it's OHKO Hydro Pump and resistance to Fire Blast. Keldeo cannot do much to Starmie, as the Sea Star resists Keldeo's entire moveset and Starmie 2HKOs with Thunderbolt. Also, Starmie can tank the Steel and Fighting-type moves aimed at Kyurem, as well as Kyurem resisting the Grass and Electric types troubling Starmie. So, overall, Starmie is a phenominal check to Team 2's current threats, and with it's fantastic coverage, it is sure to remain a threat as the Teams continue to develop.

    Also, some Calcs to demonstrate Starmie's effectiveness!
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 406-478 (125.69 - 147.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 247-291 (76.23 - 89.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 111-131 (42.52 - 50.19%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 113-133 (43.29 - 50.95%) -- 3.91% chance to 2HKO
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Except that with LO, hazards, and half you HP lost from EP/Hydro Pump, Starmie won't be around for very long. Sure, Rapid Spin is cool but we don't know who is setting the hazards on Team 2 and there are other options we could end up considering. It's a good choice for a spinner since it checks both Keldeo and Heatran but it's not a good choice as a counter for these two.


    Edit: "Shaky" means it's situational. Keldeo needs SR up plus it needs to fling out a Secret Sword (kyurem won't be the only member on team 1's team) to pull off a 2HKO 55.86% of the time. That is situational for Keldeo, not Rotom. It's a shaky counter or a strong check but not a shaky check.

    Edit2: I just took the AC spread mentioned that was built to outspeed adament Scizor and have more bulk to eat Tornadus-T hurricanes (not an issue but the bulk is useful). The standard spread is meant to outrun Techniloom and burn it (not sure why, Rotom dies right after even if it hits). Since I opted for T-Wave (to screw over Latios picks) that spread wasn't really needed. A Timid spread would be needed to outrun Tran which comes at the price of bulk and power so I didn't bother to make my own spread just for one target.
  12. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    I don't see how Rotom-W counters Keldeo. A counter who can't switch on the pokemon he's supposed to counter is weird.
    Since it can get 2HKO by Secret Sword with SR. Moreover Secret Sword hits Heatran as hard as Surf does (can be a 0HKO after SR), so there is no reason to use Surf anyways.

    It's at best a check, and a "shaky one" xD
  13. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    I still don't have a definitive opinion on what we should pick, so don't take this post as Rotom-W support, but Rotom is actually a quite good check to Keldeo. A check is supposed to be able to switch in on some moves, not every move, of the pokemon that is checked, and in fact Rotom doesn't care about Surf, Hydro Pump or HP Ice (not taking into consideration Rain here, however Team 2 is highly unlikely to pick Rain, especially when we can counterpick Kingdra having the last pick). Hydro Pump has a measly 7% chance to 3HKO after Rocks, and Surf and HP Ice are just worse. Secret Sword is the only move that can 2HKO (it's not even guaranteed to do so, it only has a 55% chance after Rocks), so Rotom-W is maybe a shaky counter to Keldeo, but a great check in my opinion. It also has advantages over Jellicent, since it's not so easily trapped, it's immune to Spikes (and that could be quite a boon since their Heatran set seem to suggest a shuffling strategy of some sort) and provides arguably more utility in general with Volt Switch and paralysis support. I'm curious to know how that EV spread was tailored, but I can see quite well why Rotom is a valuable pick right now.
  14. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Well, unless we include a ghost or something that can easily take fighting attacks, Keldeo's best choice (for now) is to spam Secret Sword if we pick Rotom-W; otherwise Kyu-B may get a free turn. I'd prefer we get something that can handle Keldeo now and then worry about pressuring team 2.
  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    There is Heatran that we have to worry about, too. Plus, who knows what other 4 members we may pick. We obviously aren't going to choose a bunch of fighting weak mons and will be sure to pack a fight resist and may end up with a water weakness. On top of that, Hydro Pump is stronger in general and Secret Sword hits on the physical side so there will end up being a lot of reasons why Keldeo might not choose to use Secret Sword.

    Edit: Just to nickpick about Gyarados, it is SR weak and Heatran carrys Roar so it won't be very difficult to spam that from behind a Sub and wittle away Gyarados (plus a Fire Blast burn hax would be terrible for it).
  16. Qwertyuiop

    Qwertyuiop

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    Jellicent is an obvious pick in this situation as it beats both Heatran and Keldeo. I was actually considering a bulky DD Gyarados as it sets up on Heatran and Keldeo, can KO TTar and has ~60% chance to OHKO 0/0 Gothitelle at +1 (it obviously outspeeds at +1). I'll probably post a set later, but Gyara is much more difficult to handle than Jellicent imho.
  17. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

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    Yeah I was thinking of posting a DD dos as well but than I thought do we really want to start our team off with 2 sr weak pokemon? probably not. Right now my full support is behind jellicent as it completely doesnt care about heatran and keldeo, and spinblocking will be pretty essential to kyurem-b in maximizing its shuffling damage.
  18. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    Gyarados would have been a good pick if it wasn't weak to rocks as it does beat both with a dd+taunt set but as everyone has said its weak to rocks:( anyway starmie was a decent idea being able to spin but IMO it really neads recover as otherwise it'll be whittled away. I would probably suggest a bulky starmie with Psyshock and scald but jelliscent IMO is better so I don't really want to suggest a set which I think is outclassed.
  19. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    Ach, I was going to say Starmie. Well, my set is different, I guess.

    Jellicent is a great idea, but here's another one:

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Timid, 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Scald / Recover / Rapid Spin / Psyshock

    Starmie is a great pokemon to work with Kyu-B right now. The have great synergy, with Kyu-B taking grass and electric and Starmie taking fighting. One thing I like about Starmie is that it can wall both Keldeo and Heatran- which is a must, since we're at a huge disadvantage against them- but also because it's fast and it spins. With Psyshock, it can easily defeat Keldeo while taking a pittance from all of it's moves. Hydro Pump is a handy tool to kill Heatran, as well as bust through any other steel type that comes in our way. Starmie's speed is useful for countering a whole lot of things- it can OHKO 0 Def Gengar with Psyshock, a pokemon whose SubDisabling/Focus Blast could easily make short work of Kyurem. Starmie's typing also helps prevent the onslaught of other steels and fighting that will try to stop us.

    Another cool thing that Starmie does is spin. With one pokemon already weak to SR, having a reply to that will definitely be useful. Although I gave a 'lecture' about how it was a bad idea to choose a spinner before hazards, this is a different case, because Starmie also has a lot of other uses and plus we already have a weakness to hazards- unlike team 2, who doesn't really mind spikes/sr, and are just planning ahead.

    Also, I am of course not against running a more offensive spread w/ Ice Beam over Recover- however, if we lose the HP Starmie can no longer counter Keldeo as reliably. However, with Ice Beam, Starmie checks every Dragon out there- relieving a lot of pressure from Kyu-B, who loses to the whole lot of them.

    Jellicent is a great submission, but I think Starmie should definitely be considered as well.
  20. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    Wouldn't heatran be able to sub a few hydro pumps away and a miss could be annoying so why not surf/scald>hydro pump? Otherwise that's the set I had in mind. Scald manages the 2hko on Heatran doing 51.85%-61.11% and starmie takes earth power well doing 34.87%-41.04% so it beats heatran with scald or surf which both always hit and have better pp. It also does well against keldeo with Psyshock doing 58.2%-69.34% and hydro pump does 34.25%-40.74%
  21. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    I'm gonna go out there and take this offensive, the only real way Team 1 can come back.
    [​IMG]
    STARAPTOR @ Choice Band
    Adamant, 4Hp/252Atk/252Spe

    If this is switched in on Heatran, team 2 loses a pokemon.
    252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 602-710 (186.37 - 219.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 352-416 (108.64 - 128.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    This also forces pressure on team 2, because with such powerful fighting and flying moves at the neutral 100 speed tier they will need faster threats, which will have trouble breaking through Kyurem-B.

    It should also be noted that Staraptor gets a free switch on Heatran's earth power too, making it an even bigger threat.

    All in all, Staraptor can easily ohko anything on team 2 on the switch, is fast enough for anything team 2 could have. However, it will probably require using Starmie, which would mean a double electric weakness :/
  22. Sewa

    Sewa

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    Oh? Did nobody suggest Navi Celebi? With no Genesect to worry about, we can run:

    [​IMG]

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 56 HP / 252 SAtk / 200 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Earth Power
    - Recover

    Even if it can't come in on Heatran (except for predicted EP), it can switch into each attack from Keldeo (even HP ice, if no SR) and threaten it with STAB grass attacks, luring Heatran for the OHKO. The EV spread is meant to outspeed everything up to Jolly Mamo (including Jolly Heatran), which is killed after Stealth Rock so that it can't revenge us in case they pick it. Sadly, it shares the same weakness as Jellicent to Pursuit users, especially Tyranitar, but guess what?
    252+ SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand (standard CB): 152-180 (40 - 47.36%) -- 37.89% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 218-260 (61.4 - 73.23%)
    Even CB scizor can't switch in because:
    252+ SpA Celebi Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 336-396 (97.95 - 115.45%)

    Calculations for Heatran:
    252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 49-58 (13.8 - 16.33%)
    252+ SpA Celebi Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 340-404 (104.93 - 124.69%)

    Calculations for Keldeo:
    252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 152-180 (42.81 - 50.7%) -- 0% chance to 2HKO considering Leftovers and no SR
    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 97-115 (27.32 - 32.39%)
    252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 69-82 (19.43 - 23.09%)
    252+ SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 246-290 (75.92 - 89.5%)
  23. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    The thing is, I think team 1 really needs an offensive, hard to switch into pokemon or else it will lose all momentum, because right now it is struggling to keep up.
  24. lokt

    lokt

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    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 224 SDef / 252 HP / 32 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Psychic
    - Baton Pass
    - Recover
    - Stealth Rock
    I'd like to propose a specially defensive celebi. The main reason to choose celebi is to have a keldeo counter that is not vulnerable to pursuit. While Celebi cannot check heatran well, the team still has 4 more picks to deal with heatran. Celebi provides the team with a bulky water switch-in, a status absorber, a keldeo counter, and a stealth rock setter. Baton pass allows celebi to escape from pursuit users, and 32 spd allows celebi to outspeed jolly t-tar. Baton pass also lets team1 gain momentum. This means that heatran can't freely switch in against celebi because it can just baton pass to another team member. Unlike Jellilcent and Starmie, celebi isn't complete pursuit bait which is extremely useful to team 1.
  25. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    Again, the problem with picking celebii/jellicent early is that they are still free to pick any offensive threats they like. We need offensive pokemon that trouble team 2's picks, not just a team of 6 dedicated walls that can't do anything.

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