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Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. Crackstar

    Crackstar

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    Eh, Keldeo is a weak choice for Team 2, it doesn't hit very hard and barely checks the sole member of Team 1, Cube. Power is at a premium early; if one team can force another to use purely defensive checks for things, then they can exploit that and break through easily. Keldeo is good for finishing late game, making it sort of retarded to take second as Team 1 can easily take something that shuts him down without an issue. Keldeo's terrible coverage and middling power means that it can be checked offensively, which I think Team 1 should try to do. Jellicent and Celebii don't hit very hard and are Pursuit bait, even with BP, making a Band Ttar pick at the end very easy for Team 2 to exploit and use. Stamie is better, but has to choose between having Speed and bulk, or Speed and power, either way staying vulnerable to being worn down or easily checked. Something that has both power and good enough bulk and typing to take on Keldeo is Toxicroak. Set is:

    [​IMG]@ Life Orb
    Trait: Dry Skin
    Evs: 48 Hp / 252 Atk / 16 SpD / 192 Spe
    Nature: Jolly
    - Swords Dance
    - Cross Chop
    - Sucker Punch
    - Ice Punch

    The trait and typing check Keldeo, absorbing Water attacks and resisting Fighting, as well as taking weak Hp Ices. The Evs to outspeed Heatran, Life Orb Hp number and max Attack, with the rest dumped in SpD. The moves are standard, Life orb to boost as well as Swords Dance, Cross Chop to take things out, Sucker Punch for prio and Ice Punch for coverage.
  2. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
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    First of all, I'd appreciate if you were a little more courteous, saying Keldeo is a retarded pick for second is incredibly disrespectful towards the majority of people that decided Keldeo was the best choice for Team 2 at the time, most of them being more accomplished battlers with deeper metagame knowledge than yourself. Contributing a set you thought is better as well as taking part in the discussion at the time of the choice is a much better option than waiting till it's over and then questioning the intelligence of the people who voted Keldeo. Almost all of Keldeo's counters are trappable, just like the Toxicroak you proposed here, it's easily trapped by Sash Dugtrio and even Gothitelle (0/0 Gothitelle is guarenteed to survive a Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock damage. Toxicroak, like Keldeo, is good at finishing late game, for this reason you called Keldeo a retarded pick for second slot, and yet you're doing the same thing yourself by nominating a pokemon that is good late game as Team 1's second pick. Toxicroak, like Keldeo, is also countered very easily, almost every physical wall in the game can counter Toxicroak with relative ease, it's also checked with more offensive options, such as Gothitelle, Dugtrio, Gyrados etc. You could argue alot of these pokemon are trappable by Gothitelle, making it a great partner for Toxicroak, but that's the exact same argument that can be used for Keldeo, nullifying your previous argument of Keldeo being shut down easily.

    I may have came off as hostile in this post, and if I did then I apologize, I can assure you that wasn't my intention when making this post. Nor was my intention to say Toxicroak was a bad pokemon, I was merely trying to point out how similiar Toxicroak and Keldeo's flaws are, and how you called Keldeo a retarded pick because of the same problems that your own pick has. It's perfectly ok to contribute some constructive critisism, but next time be sure to do so when the discussion for that pokemon is going on, and refrain from throwing around words such as retarded, weak, terrible, as it's very offensive.
  3. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Cross Chop's accuracy (or lack thereof) is a piece of shit; wouldn't it be better to use Drain Punch?
  4. Doughboy

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    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Psychic
    - Recover
    - Baton Pass

    Utilizing a defensive Pokemon early isn't necessarily a downfall, especially if they can facilitate a sweep easily if the opponent tries to revenge kill us. SubPass Celebi aims to do that easily. Teams two's choice to rely on Keldeo to revenge kill our own sweepers means it will be a liability for another sweeper to come in with a beefy 101 HP Substitute. Unless team 2 utilizes Scarf Tyranitar (32 Spd EV's outspace lol max speed Jolly Band Tar) or Weaville, they will be hard pressed to trap this Celebi. But both are easily set up upon by an accompanying Fighting type. If team two brings in their Heatran as we Substitute, we can Baton Pass out to a Pokemon that can set up easily on its two move coverage. Remember, Celebi's Baton Pass can also be used just like U-turn to scout switchin's and gain momentum.
  5. JacobNinja

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    Team 1's pokemon has 0 atk/spa and 56 spe.
    Both of Team 2's pokemon are 252 spa/spe.
    This is a problem, Team 1 NEEDS offensive presence.
  6. ChrisTehAwesome

    ChrisTehAwesome

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    Well if team 1 needs offensive threats how about one of the most threatening mons available: Breloom. Don't have the set on me right now, but with the right evs it can survive an hp ice and retaliate with bullet seed. I know it can't switch in to team 2s picks but it definitely threatens on the offensive side. The question becomes whether we want true counters or just threats to said pokes. I do like bulky gyarados though
  7. JacobNinja

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    I would have said breloom, but I figured something to hit fighting hard would be better, and speed would be fun. However, why not submit a techniloom? If It beats star in the calcs I might vote for it.
  8. ClubbingSealCub

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    Honestly, EV investment is not a good way to get an idea of "offensive presence".

    Team 1 has Kyurem-B, a mon that has 170 base attack, and it's actually putting a lot of pressure on team 2, because it forces every single one of its members to be able to threaten it or else it just gets a free d-tail or a sub up.

    Also, Team 1 has two picks in a row. I can't stress this enough. Why should we not pick a deffensive pokémon that entirely counters Team 2's choices now and then pick a powerful mon?
  9. Reymedy

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    I'm really amused to see that when I call "shaky check" (that was obviously a joke by the way) a pokemon that is 2HKO by the pokemon he's supposed to check, everybody is scandalized. However when someone calls "shaky check" something not even surely 2HKO'd by a move at +2 from the powerhouse that is Terrakion, nobody cares. And overrall explaining me after what is counter/check.. I guess the irony was too light and the "justice" absent.
    Whatever, that was just something I wanted to clear.




    Heatran and Keldeo, thus I decided to go for one of my favourite GEN1 pokemon :

    [​IMG]
    Slowbro @ Leftovers
    Regenerator
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    - Scald
    - Slack Off
    - Thunder Wave
    - Psychic

    In case people complain once again because it's defensive, I'll just say that ThunderWave shut DOWN Heatran and Keldeo. Moreover, once Heatran is Paralaysed, the counter to Kyurem totally disapear and the mechanism is reversed. Paralysis is something that we should really be looking for.
    To those who still complain, I'll also say that Slowbro 2HKO both Heatran and Keldeo.
    To those who think that Slowbro is not Bulky enough to wall like Jellicent, I'll say that Slowbro can't take more than what he gets from Regenerator from the two pokemons already chosen by the team 2.

    Now people will oppose me counters to Slowbro. Okay, these are probably :
    Scizor, in capital letters. However Scizor is easy to deal with, and needs to be choiced to deal damages to Slowbro (or the SD set with BugBite but it's walled like hell by a lot of stuff that can set-up on it, and if it loses the surprise factor it's really not so good in this situation). A CB Scizor is really something easy for us to deal with, because he will have to chose between U-Turning and Bullet Punching, U-Turns does 70% to Slowbro, so with SlackOff, Slowbro took a pity from it and forced the enemy to switch and take Hazards damages.
    Finally, since Heatran got Roar, and will probably go for Roar each time he comes on Kyurem-B, a pokemon with Regenerator can be the go-to-go solution : Every time Heatran Roar, we switch in Slowbro and regen life if needed.

    I think Slowbro can be a really cool solution, since it shut down 2 Special Attackers with a Physically defensive set, thus putting the enemy team in a bad situation because the incoming physical attackers are already walled (only Electric, Bug, Dark, Grass are not, but Slowbro is so bulky that he can't be Trapped, and there is no physical attacker in OU that can really damage him as enough for instance a CB Kyurem-B does 70% with Outrage).

    There is also Breloom, but the core Keldeo and Breloom is weak to Psychic and a Breloom is really easily countered depending on the set he runs. He needs to be Adamant with LO to do serious damages, this type of set opens many possibilities for us. With Kyurem and Slowbro resistance, we can even play around Breloom, but shutting down Breloom and Scizor is possible by picking a flying Dragon like Dragonite who can by the way set up really easily on Heatran (let's say we take Earthquake), locked Keldeo, Scizor, Breloom.
  10. Phazon00

    Phazon00

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    The problem with these Celebis that have just Psychic is that CB Tyranitar has an absolutely free switch in to Pursuit Celebi as it switches. I'd suggest Giga Drain for a mono-attacking move because it also provides a little recovery and damage.
  11. ClubbingSealCub

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    The Celebi sets include baton pass, so ttar is not a problem for them as long a we pack at least 1 rock/dark resist mon (a fighting type).
  12. TyranitarAbuser

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    Though there is the possibility of playing around it, Breloom is a counter to your Slowbro, Remedy (as you said) and if Team 2 picks Breloom, we are facing an offensive FWG core. Although there are ways to break the core, one misplay and we might be in a little trouble.
  13. Reymedy

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    As I said, if they pick Breloom, Dragonite will have a real easy time sweeping throught the team.
    It's not because it's FWG that it's strong, especially when the pokemons share common typing in Fighting. As offensive core, this combination is not far from being pointless. For instance Dragonite can come on anything, Earthquake, and if Breloom switched in, Extreme Speed. I don't see how the "FWG core" helps from that.
    Anyways, we're highly likely to pick a Water pokemon, you can consider already that there will probably be a Grass pokemon against us.

    But seriously "FWG", it always look like a sacred core, some kind of Holy Grail when people talk about it :p
    I mentionned Dragonite, but any Latias with Surf will have fun with this "core" also.

    And well, Slowbro is not so afraid of Breloom. Breloom can't switch on Slowbro, he's 0HKO by Psychic (and needs to hit FOUR times with LO and a Jolly Nature to kill Slowbro, without LO he needs to hit 5 times). Thunderwave obviously means his death, since he'll be slower than Slowbro, and Scald can burn him and turn him into a pokemon only here to Spore.

    On the Celebi point, while I like the idea, I'm not sure we should pick it so early. Basically the Nasty Plot is the best set here to me, because both Earth Power and Giga Drain are needed, and the defensive set is outsped by Heatran so it needs maybe more speed ?
    Well, the defensive set is not bad, but as mentionned, having one single offensive slot is annoying, especially when it's not packing Toxic for instance or ThunderWave.
    I think that Celebi should be used later.
  14. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Danned Beucer.
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    [​IMG]
    AZELF
    name: Focus Sash Stealth Rock
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Taunt
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Psychic
    item: Focus Sash
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 SpD / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Azelf would be a cool pick because it's guaranteed to set up Stealth Rock (unless the other team chooses something with a multi-hit move that outspeeds) and can U-Turn out to fodder itself later or check Keldeo (81.25% chance to OHKO, but Azelf can't switch in on Hydro Pump). Stealth Rock support helps Kyurem-B do as much damage as possible and limits the other team to using a Spinner, a Bouncer or no major SR weaknesses if they want to minimize the damage. Taunt prevents the other team from setting up turn 1, and in case the other team tries to counter it with Magic Coat or Prankster Taunt it can U-Turn out. Timid lowers U-Turn's power a bit, but it's not too noticeable. Keldeo's HP Ice can't 2HKO after SR, by the way, and Secret Sword is lol against Azelf.
  15. TyranitarAbuser

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    I kinda disagree with the Celebi nominations. Scizor is a great check to not only Celebi but to Kyurem-B as well. Scizor doesn't even have to Pursuit, it can U-turn out, hitting Celebi if it stays in, going to a counter to whatever switches in to take a Pursuit/the predicted U-turn.

    EDIT: I think Azelf is in the same boat as Celebi, though it can't be OHKOed.
  16. Arcticblast

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    A Scizor weakness isn't too bad; we can always slap on a Scizor check - they're not exactly rare. Heatran, Volcarona, Lando-T, Rotom-W (conveniently checks both Keldeo and Heatran), and Magnezone are some of the common offensive Scizor checks in OU. Still something to look out for, of course.
  17. ChrisTehAwesome

    ChrisTehAwesome

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    [​IMG]
    I'd like to propose a techniloom, to create massive pressure on the switch in for team 2.

    Breloom @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Technician
    16 HP / 240 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Mach Punch
    - Bullet Seed
    - Low Sweep
    - Spore

    HP is to always survive timid HP ice from keldeo after rocks. Puts some pretty harsh pressure on the switch, but is kinda frail. Considering SD instead of low sweep but it is really handy
  18. gengarsnemisis

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    Low sweep breloom should always have life orb, imo. Or you can just switch it to sd version and keep the gem.
  19. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Okay, time to give some feedback myself.

    Jellicent looks really solid at the moment, shuts down both pokes from Team 2, and while one may argue that it makes us Pursuit weak, that's sorta moot since it would imply them picking Tyranitar (Jellicent doesn't really care about Scizor), and then we could pick Dugtrio and trap a third of their team easily, which doesn't look smart from their side. Gothitelle can be a nuisance for this, though, since it can trap and is relatively less easily trapped (we need to 1- pick a Pursuiter, and 2- rely on double switches to get it in, all of those to defend a defensive pick). So, even if it looks like the abolute best now, I'd think about it a little more than the amount of thing it counters would imply.

    Rotom-W is a smart pick to me, I already posted about it so I don't want to be repetitive. The post is this, for reference. Rotom can be a quite viable pick, as long as we provide a Fighting resistance of some sort later. It's not easily trapped, shuts down Heatran, and doesn't care about Keldeo except from Secret Sword.

    Starmie is also a decent pick, I largely prefer Electrolyte's version, although I'd use Scald anyway - even if Hydro Pump hits harder, you don't really need it (Heatran can't do anything anyway) and the burn chance is vital to cripple Ferrothorn and many other things that otherwise would wall you cold. The fact that it solves the hazards problem for Team 1 is very valuable, especially since it removes part of the usefulness from that Heatran set.

    Staraptor is not really desirable. Another SR weakness, easily walled, slow, easily revenged, zerod efensive synergy, forces our picks to go in a certain direction, etc. Not the way to go IMHO.

    I personally like a lot Celebi, although I can see the concerns expressed. The main problem, to me, is that it can't touch Dragons, and since Kyurem doesn't really love to deal with Latios, Latias, +1 Dragonite and the likes, it doesn't seem a great idea to me. The defensive version could sorta work, if carrying Thunder Wave, but I'm not really sold on the current one (although I like the idea of BP over U-Turn).

    Toxicroak stops cold Keldeo, but doesn't look like a great pick, they can stop it without much effort, and as pointed out, bad accuracy, lack of Sub, probable lack of Dry Skin recovery, and a not-really-reliable move in Sucker Punch, will more likely than not backfire on us, in my opinion.

    Slowbro is an interesting pick, the paralysis thing is indeed interesting, and having a physically bulky set that stops speicla attackers look quite versatile too. However it's trappable as much as Jellicent by Gothitelle and doesn't provide Spinblock utility (which would help Kyurem to shuffle them to death). While reasonable, I see Jelli as a superior option here.

    Azelf is not really something I'd like to have. They can pick a slow U-Turner, take you down to Sash as you set up Rocks and go to a spinner, while you can't do much if not U-Turn out. We're better to wait a little bit more before trying such gimmicky (althoug valid) sets, IMHO.

    Breloom should have LO, I agree, Fighting Gem can work for a SD set to have huge power on the first hit and decent one afterwards (thanks to the SD), hopefully having removed its own counter, however Low Sweep sets rely on continually hitting the opponent, and wasting the Gem while hitting a resistance for low damage seems a huge waste. On Breloom itself, it looks reasonable, provides priority and Spore, and while there are things able to stop it easily, we can work around with our next picks. Something to be considered, IMHO.

    I'd also invite everyone to keep calm while discussing. Using terms like "retarded" or similar ones doesn't really add anything to the discussion and will have the only effect to upset people and make this thread a worse environment. Please, avoid it in the future. You're free to express all your disagreement in a more polite way.
  20. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Following Ganj4lf example ^^


    Jellicent :
    Show Hide
    Okay, this part is more about "Why I believe Slowbro is better". This pokemon can be trapped, not only by Tyranitar, but by Weavile. And Weavile also kills Kyurem-B after SR. Yes it does, because he could go for Adamant, since nothing on the team 1 menances his speed tier yet. Moreover, Jellicent with Surf is not a good thing at all. It is not redundant because Jellicent NEEDS to burn somebody, and sometimes you want the Burn without giving up the damages you are dealing. Finally I don't know what this Jellicent is supposed to Taunt, especially because everybody can see the speed you run and counter the moveset pretty easily.
    I'll also add that I was criticised about chosing a spinner before they choose SR (there is like 99.9% that they choose SR but well.) and here we choose a spin blocker before they chose a spinner (they are not likely to choose one at the moment).
    Finally with this spread, a Starmie can beat the Jellicent with Thunderbolt. Psychic does also a nice chunk to Kyurem-B, I'd say that Starmie has many chances to beat him with a LO and Recover set, since Starmie does 40% to him (after SR he's at 35%) so he can't switch in easily, and risk the Specs Drop/Crit while he is forced to spam Roost.

    So, I'm not saying Jellicent is bad or what, it does obviously counter Keldeo and Heatran but in my opinion I'm more afraid about the utility it can really bring later, when they will pick counters, strong physical attackers (and Breloom here got nothing to fear, while Slowbro has more chances to survive Bullet Leech than not, Jellicent is just killed with no doubt after 2 single hits).
    At this point, I'll still vote for it because I believe it's the second best pick after Slowbro.


    Rotom-W :
    Show Hide
    It is decent, but it does not really beat Heatran or Keldeo. As I already said Keldeo can 2HKO it, and Heatran could totally fish for the Hydro Pump miss by spamming Substitutes. So yes, relying on this move to beat a counter at this point is not something I really want.
    Like Jellicent, I believe Rotom-W is really crippled by showing to the world the speed invested, letting Breloom adapt freely to the situation for instance. Dragonite can also sponge a Twave with Lum Berry while he Dragon Dance and kill him right after, picking Rotom-W forces us a little to pick Scarf Latios, and let's say Dragonite can get +2 or still have Multiscale and the situation is bad.
    It's not a bad pick, but I think Jellicent is a little above at the moment because it beats more reliably Heatran and Keldeo. But Rotom-W will probably be more useful in the future over Jellicent.


    Starmie :
    Show Hide
    Clearly fine, I don't like the set for now. It won't get chosen anyways for the same reasons than before.


    Staraptor :
    Show Hide
    Not something I like, can't switch on Keldeo and Heatran, and is outsped by Keldeo anyways.


    Celebi :
    Show Hide
    I said everything about it. Not now in my opinion, but it can be a solid pick later.


    Toxicroak :
    Show Hide
    Agreeing with Ganj4lf, it is too easily countered.


    Slowbro :
    Show Hide
    Well, nothing new to say here.


    Azelf :
    Show Hide
    An anti-lead revealed ? I'm not really liking it at all. Deoxys-D will be probably superior to it.


    Breloom :
    Show Hide
    It's fine, but it can't switch in on Keldeo and Heatran, especially if Heatran used Substitute. And since Kyurem-B will be forced out all day, we need a good switch in.


    For Gothitelle, there is a perfect back-up plan against it, it is really not hard at all to play around. It need to be Choice Specs with either Thunderbolt or Signal beam to beat Slowbro spamming Slack Off.
  21. TyranitarAbuser

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    I think Remedy an Ganj4IF said about everything that needs to be said. I think Jellicent will be a solid pick, though I'm wondering why some of the Jellicent sets were running Surf (just noticed. Lol). Jellicent needs all the burn chances it can get to survive Pursuit from Ttar (despite 30% being considerably lower than 75%).

    I'm a little unsure about Starmie though. While the coverage and Rapid Spinning are good, Kyurem-B can Roost, helping it to regain some of the HP lost to SR. However, one mon isn't enough to warrant a spinner just because it is weak to Stealth Rock, and if we started picking other mons weak to Rocks, Team 2 will start targeting down our spinner. Still, it might be handy when they try to do something like Spike stack

    Specs Gothitelle can be countered by sending in a mon that resists or is immune to the move it just locked itself into.

    For example, Gothitelle just killed our Jellicent with a Thunderbolt, which it is now locked into. We go into a Ground type, Lando-T for instance. We can set up Rocks or U-turn as Goth switches out
  22. ClubbingSealCub

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    That's not exactly "countering", per se. We lose Jelli anyway (not mine, it has shed shell :D)

    If they do end up going for Gothi, we could use Sub HoneClaws Dugtrio. It works very well against choiced electric attacks.
  23. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    That was one of the options I was thinking about. But it's a little obvious, so they might prefer go for Signal Beam.
    Porygon2 with Sharpen or some silly set like this could pretty much work also, it takes a pity from Signal beam (like not more than 20% from specs modest Gothitelle). It can also Trace Flash Fire, this could be really funny x)
    With a Physically Defensive set, P2 can't be killed by Keldeo moreover.

    I'm thinking about something crazy like Sharpen/LastResort/Recover/ZenHeadbutt (yes the moveset P2 can run is quite shitty).
    You boost to +6, use all your moves on Gothitelle, then sweep the entire team while they fail to kill you x)
    That's higly gimmick, but well, I'm sure it does work against a Gothitelle stuck on Signal Beam.
    And if it's TBolt then yes, Duggy can do the trick.
  24. ClubbingSealCub

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    IIRC, two shadow tags mon can't trap one another (the effects are supressed until one of them switches).
  25. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Oh, I checked, it's true.
    Damn it's so weird and unlogical :@

    Well then a simple set-up pokemon like.. once again Dragonite could do the trick I guess against lock Signal Beam.

    EDIT: @TyranitarAbuser: We were talking about Gothitelle's Shadow Tag being Traced by Porygon2's ability.

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