1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,064
    I'd suggest you go with RP over Substitute. One of the main advantages of Latios and Lando, along with their massive power, is the fact that ScarfKeldeo can't revenge kill them. That means that they only have to worry about that one counter Team 2 chooses before it can sweep. With Cube shuffling around damage, Lando has a much easier time pulling off a sweep with Rock Polish (which it can't do with Sub). The tricky part, though, is dealing with Heracross or offensive Latias which counters Lando (the former profits from the switch-in to fire off its powerful attacks while the latter has Roost to keep it going) as well as finding the opportunity to switch-in and set up. (these reasons are why I opted for LO Latios instead)
  2. lokt

    lokt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Messages:
    186
    [​IMG]
    Latias (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 220 SAtk / 36 HP / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Psyshock
    - Recover
    I'd like to nominate latias for team1. Latias effectively checks both keldeo and heatran. Because heatran does not have toxic, latias can wear it down with repeated surfs. Keldeo also fails to 2hko latias after stealth rock with hp ice with this spread. Latias also discourages team2 from choosing a fighting type which would be troublesome for kyurem. While team 2 can choose scizor or tyranitar to trap latias, those two can also be trapped by magnezone and dugtrio respectively.
  3. thebrownie

    thebrownie

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    83
    Latios/Latias is a great idea but it gets destroyed by pursuit scizor which would be an obvious choice as it is a great check to Kyr-B and Lati@s. If we throw in HP fire Latias it effectively destroys scizor.
  4. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Sorry for my mistake!

    As for Latios for Team One: it also works. I would use Latios > Latias for hitting Heatran harder imo. Latias, although bulky, can't really break through Heatran as well without rain support. Latios can roost off damage finely and the offensive nature works. However... I could see steel types becoming an issue for Team One with this change (Kyu-B + Latios would be walled by Jirachi; and Jirachi can actually Iron Head Wash to death if it gets a para on the switch). I would try using EQ Latios, and run some attack investment (I'll call up CTC for the attack spread #, it may not be worth it but its worth mentioning imo) since EQ would beat the Heatran they are using and other steels that might be used such as Jirachi.

    Latios set update (open)

    Latios @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    Nature: Naive
    EVs: 92 Atk / 174 SAtk / 244 Spe
    - Draco Meteor
    - Roost
    - Psyshock / HP Fire
    - Earthquake



    Slashed are up for debate I suppose; but EQ would be highly worth denting Kyu-B's counters. As for Scizor, that's why Melee recommended HP Fire, although one would have to play safely vs. TTar.

    EDIT:


    Got calcs:

    92 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs 255 HP/0 Def Heatran: 93.26% - 109.84% (62.5% chance to OHKO) OHKO after SR
    92 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs 255 HP/0 Def Jirachi: 47.52% - 55.94% (2-3 hits to KO) 2HKO after SR


    So our options are:

    (1) 92 Atk / 166 SAtk / 252 Spe -- Naive Nature
    (2) 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe -- Timid Nature
    (3) 92 Atk / 174 SAtk / 244 Spe -- Naive Nature (outspeeds base 108's with HP Fire)
  5. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    I'm agreeing with thebrownie here. Even though Scizor and Tyranitar are easily counter-trapped, how are we going to bring Magnezone and Dugtrio in? Surely not by switching out, as that will double Pursuit's base power. If we choose to fodder our Latios/Latias, we lose the offensive presence that we wanted them to have.

    Tyranitar is a huge concern in particular, coming in for free on Psyshocks an taking any move all day under sand.
  6. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Earthquake should 2HKO most TTar

    Calc:

    92 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 43.56% - 51.49% (3 hits to KO) (does like 49% after SR AT MINIMUM, which means you have a 99% chance to 2HKO).
  7. lokt

    lokt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Messages:
    186
    I don't see the point of running earthquake on latios. First of all, even LO latias surf will be 2HKOing tran, since it has no defensive investment. Heatran can't even do damage to Latios except with a nve fireblast and heatran shouldn't even be switching in. While earthquake does 2HKO t-tar, you can use grass knot or hp fighting and not have to have split ev investment.
    Calcs: 220 SpA Life Orb Latias Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 224-265 (69.13 - 81.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  8. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Yeah but hitting Rachi for 2HKO and TTar is very beneficial since Pursuit trapping is our worst enemy, and this way we can use our next coverage slot for HP Fire -- to knock Scizor. Don't forget that all steels types are major threats to Cube, like Jira for instance. It would wall both Latios and Kyu-B and it ALSO sets up rocks (which means it will more or less go to the opposing team) if we don't include EQ.
  9. lokt

    lokt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Messages:
    186
    Even with earthquake you are still going to be vulnerable to pursuit trapping. Team 2 could simply run scarf tar, and you rely on predicting the switch to escape trapping. If the opponent outpredicts you, or brings in t-tar after a kill, latios is still going to be trapped. The set also relies on prediction to beat jirachi, and if you predict incorrectly, latios is going to get forced out. Even without earthquake, lati@s could simply double switch and force out jirachi or t-tar.
  10. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    no prediction.

    jira stays in and rocks as I EQ -- its in KO range now
    ttar rocks as we EQ and its in KO range
    ttar uses pursuit as scarf and 3hkos since it does like 45% while latios 2hkos with EQ
  11. lokt

    lokt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Messages:
    186
    You have to predict that the opponent uses rocks. If jirachi goes for the thunder wave, or t-tar crunches, the you are crippled. Also, your calcs are wrong.
    252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 162-192 (53.64 - 63.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
  12. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Sorry, i swore it was around 45%.

    Why would TTar crunch though when it has a perfect opp. to either pursuit or rocks? Pursuit on anything except band and scarfed (only variants that run max attack) don't fully KO (like sdef set).

    Jira also might TWave, but why miss a perfect opp. to rocks? Rocks are super important and #1 priority. However, you have a good point. Prediction is part of Pokemon though and EQ makes Tar and Rachi much more manageable than if we don't.
  13. lokt

    lokt

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Messages:
    186
    The main thing is that the opposing team knows our sets, and therefore are unlikely to risk setting up rocks when you are able to 2HKO them. Tyranitar has the choice of OHKOing with crunch, or with pursuit if you switch. Since the opponent knows that you have earthquake, they might choose to crunch instead of pursuit. Another thing to note is that scarftar will always beat latios 1 on 1 even if it uses pursuit and band tar will always OHKO with pursuit after LO damage and sand damage.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 266-314 (88.07 - 103.97%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
  14. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,302
    Yeah your probably right. I guess that's why I hate this peticular project -- the opponent knows our sets.

    Anyway, I'm sticking for Latios, although if we use HP Fire we should use 252 SAtk / 244 Spe / 12 Hp spread since HP Fire prevents us from outpacing other base 110's anyway.
  15. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    @thebrownie: You already submitted the sash Breloom set, and you can only submit one poke.

    @Shurtugal: What about Scarf Rachi? I don't think that your Latios outpaces it, and it 2HKOes you with all its moves except for Fire Punch. Also, you should add a sprite for your Latios if you want it to be selected for voting.
  16. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    102
    Guys why are we using dual dragons as we already have Kyurem so we want a poke with good synergy otherwise they can sweep us with something like ddmence dd haxorus dd Dragonite max speed timid latias and a load of dragons. Ik we want a poke that's hard to counter but we need a poke who isn't a dragon imo as otherwise we find ourselves in a tight position as they pick a dd dragon who destroys us. Yes we can pick scizor to deal with latias but the others are huge threats to us then.
  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,064
    I just want to clarify a few things about Pursuit trappers.
    CBTar (open)
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 199-235 (49.25 - 58.16%) -- 98.05% chance to 2HKO

    -2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 99-118 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- possible 4HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 179-213 (44.3 - 52.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    So as you can see, CBTar can't switch into DM if it has lost about a quarter of its HP already (pretty easy with SR + no recovery) if we assume MIN roles. IF we assume max roles (which is what we would have to if we wanted to counter it) then it can't switch in with SR up. On top of that, Tyranitar is cleanly 2HKO'd by Surf so if it wants to make the kill on Latios it has to come in on a revenge kill or predict a HP Fire/Roost.

    Scizor (open)
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 177-209 (51.6 - 60.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    -2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 88-105 (25.65 - 30.61%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 161-190 (46.93 - 55.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 195-229 (64.56 - 75.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Scizor is in the same boat. It actually takes more from Draco Meteor than Tyranitar does and it goes without saying that HP Fire OHKOs. It's only boon is Bullet Punch but that doesn't even KO after SR and a round of LO damage.

    So in both cases, the pursuit trappers are going to need to rely on prediction and smart play in order to take down Latios. All that, to accomplish what? Latios isn't used ATM to counter anything (it just takes advantage of Heatran and Keldeo to switch in safely) so removing it isn't helping Team 2 pull of a sweep. It's just going to remove something that is putting immense offensive pressure on them (which is good but they still have the rest of the team to fight)

    Btw Shurtugal, Team 2 has already picked an offensive Heatran which is often OHKO'd after SR. As cool as EQ is, it isn't really needed for anything. It helps with SpDef Rachi and Empoleon but the former is already hard countered by Rotom-W (he is so bulky that Iron Head is barely hitting more than Lefties) and the same is for Empoleon. The EV spread suggestion is a cool idea since you are right Latios is going to lose to other 110's. Though, I'm going to leave it as is as the extra bulk is unnoticable and we never know if Team 2 ends up picking a HP Fire Lati@s themselves. Thanks for the suggestions, though, I appreciate the feedback.
    Calcs (open)
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 257-304 (79.56 - 94.11%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Rotom-W: 19-22 (6.27 - 7.26%) -- 9HKO at best


    Finally, Dual Dragons is a good thing as it is excellent offensive pressure. Right now, there is nothing on Team 1 that any Dragon type can switch in and set-up on. Cube has Dtail, Rotom-W has Volt Switch and T-Wave, (Lum only works once), and Latios (if he is added) has Draco Meteor.


    (Oh and ScarfTar/ScarfScizor/ScarfRachi are not viable options as Team 2 already has Scarf Keldeo.)
  18. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    Tournament Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    989
    [​IMG]
    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 64 HP / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
    IVs: 30 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Psychic
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Rock Polish

    dragontamer74pe doesn't seem to be taking Melee Mewtwo's Rock Polish > Substitute suggestion on his Landorus, so I'll just post a Rock Polish Landorus myself (it also has different spread, nature and I was actually going to post a Rock Polish Landorus last night, but I was too tired, so I was giong to post it this morning only to find Landorus being nommed, lol.) Anyway, Landorus gives the team a top tier threat that has very few counters, it can't be revenge killed by Keldeo at +2, and it provides the team with a nice fighting resist who isn't weak to Stealth Rock, it can even setup on Keldeo locked into Secret Sword, this'll discourage it from killing anything with Secret Sword, sometimes even forcing it to spam Hydro Pump / Surf, both of which do pitiful damage to Rotom-W. Landorus is a pretty good Rotom-W partner, Landorus can have trouble switching in on an attack and proceed to take another hit as it sets up a Rock Polish, Rotom-W fixes this problem with a slow Volt Switch. Landorus is only really going to be revenge killed with Ice Shard, which Rotom-W resists and it's also immune to the secondary STAB move of the most common Ice Shard user in OU: Mamoswine (it's also pretty great against Weavile, and if they choose Ice Shard Abomasnow, not only can it trapped by Gothitelle, it also provides Kyurem-B with it's favourite weather: Hail.) The few counters Landorus actually has can be trapped rather easily, eg. Latias is trapped by Tyranitar, making it incredibly difficult for Team 2 to actually prevent Landorus from sweeping. The EV spread and Modest nature may seem weird considering Landorus' awesome base 101 speed stat, but with this EV spread, it outspeeds everything relevant at +2 (Jolly Sand Rush Stoutland, Timid Chlorophyll Venusaur, etc), and seeing as how this Landorus is going to fufill the role of our main sweeper, it likely won't come out until it's ready to setup a Rock Polish, and possibly pull off a sweep. The extra power provided with Modest really makes a difference and the bulk provided by the extra bulk provided is great for taking hits on the setup and getting hit by priority in the middle of a sweep. Overall, Landorus is a huge threat who's very difficult to counter, making it a very aggressive pick and it currently destroys Team 2 after a Rock Polish, definitely a great choice.
  19. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    442
    Aww,got ninja'd again.Anyway,I'd like to say Timid nature and max speed should be used here so Team 1 cannot take advantage of this by stamrolling half the team by something like CB Moxie Mence or some other shit.The extra bulk iand Power sn't quite important while the extra speed might come in between a win or a loss.I'd also like to suggest Psychic>Focus Blast if we go with Timid as Psychic lets you OHKO Keldeo when using Timid and OHKOs Heracross a big threat which Melee mewtwo mentioned and Genger. The only thing Focus miss helps with is Skarmory,and Balloon tran and lets you OHKO most Ferrothorn.None of them are problems atm except Ferro who is 2HKOed by Earth Power when not using Max spdef(although it'll need some prior damage if it uses Leech seed).Considering Focus Miss's low accuracy,it's best to go for the 2HKO unless in a tough situation where an OHKO is necessary.
  20. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,468
    Same as Landorus, but with better resistances :


    [​IMG]
    Thundurus-T @ Expert-Belt
    Volt Absorb
    Modest Nature
    148 HP / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
    - Agility
    - Hidden Power Ice
    - Thunderbolt / Thunder
    - Focus Blast

    I say better resistances, because it does resist Bullet Punch, Absord Volt, and Grass. It's also not *4 weak to Ice, leaving us a chance to beat Keldeo if needed, it's not weak to Water either. Basically, it covers a little better Rotom-W's weaknesses, and Kyurem-B's one with its good typing.
    Like Landorus, the power of this pokemon is really impressive, and after an Agility there are few offensive teams that can stand up against him.
    The EVs are here to outspeed Breloom Jolly, and to outspeed Scarf Latios after Agility even if it's unlikely that they choose it.
    Thundurus-T can set-up on a LO Latios that used Draco Meteor before, it can even survive a -2 Meteor and a -4 one if SR weren't up.

    There are no real counters to this, and unlike Landorus, even an Ice Shard from Mamoswine can't stop him.
    I guess people will say that the issue is the lack of Rain, but I don't think this should stop us from using Thundurus-T since Thunderbolt is already a really strong spell, and the coverage he got from BoltBeam+Fighting is really amazing.
  21. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,064
    Actually the first thing that jumps out about Thundy-T is that SR weakness. This is really undesirable when we already have Cube's hazard problems. Sure we can add a Rapid Spin user but we want to try to avoid forcing ourselves into later choices (which destroys the advantage of having a free pick thanks to Rotom-W). This becomes further complicated by the possibility of spin blockers and reliable SR setters as well as the problem, once in battle, of playing with the pressure of the SR and the need to spin it away.

    As far as comparing Thundy-T's offensive powers to those of Lando-I, the lack of Sheer Force and Life Orb really bites. Assuming Timid Lando, Earth Power is hitting about 23% harder than Thundy's TBolt which makes quite a difference when it comes to OHKOs and 2HKOs.


    I just thought about Virizion when looking at the Viability thread. It can even tank any of Lando's moves (even Psychic) while outspeeding and OHKOing with HP Ice. At the same time, it threatens Cube and Rotom-W with its STABs.
  22. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,468
    Thundurus-T comes when he's sure to end the game, SR weaknesses is not a relevant point in my opinion.
    Lack of Sheer force and Life Orb, but at the moment Thundurus-T does the job against both Keldeo and Heatran, so it's pointless to try to do 300% to Heatran or so, we just need him dead.
    By the way, Landorus can't 0HKO Keldeo, just saying, so on this part maybe Thunderbolt is weak, but it does its job just fine at the moment. On the other hand, Landorus can be revenged by the second team, which is a huge issue with this nomination.
  23. G-Von

    G-Von

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    636
    I AM DONE WITH FINALS
    I'm also happy that the Counter that Pokemon thread is back up and running. looking at team 1, I am going to have to suggest a spinner:
    [​IMG]
    Forretress@Leftovers
    Relaxed Nature
    EV's: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD
    Trait: Sturdy
    -Stealth Rock
    -Spikes
    -Rapid Spin
    -Volt Switch
    To protect our good friend Kyurem-B and any other hazard weak teammates it may gain, Forretress is my choice for the third team member of Team 1. If they decide not to have hazards, then we have a dominant physical wall that can lay hazards with ease and keep momentum with Volt Switch. Rotom-W is a great teammate for Forry because he can take any move from Heatran pretty well and creates a small VoltTurn core. Hazard laying is obviously obvious. I decided against T-Spikes because Heatran is immune to them.
  24. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    102
    Aww boo I was gonna change my Landorus after doing damage calcs to a to Landorus but I lost Internet connection and couldn't post after I did the calcs. Yeah I suppose rock polish Landorus is better, I didnt know it could ohko keldeo
  25. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    Even though Thundurus-T isn't weak to water, it still take a hefty chunk from water attacks. With Lando-I, I think that Psychic is a reasonable as White symphoni has said and due to the same reasons.

    I don't particularly like Fortress atm, because we have the option of keeping the offensive pressure up on team 2 with picks like Melee mewtwo's Latios. Also, if we leave Entry Hazard setters towards the back, they may become more difficult to deal with especially since we have the last pick.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)