Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Angel of mercy, how did you find me?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,615
    I"m not going to post a set this time since it's late and my ideas have already been posted.

    Right now, I'm in huge favor of Latios / Latias. They can effectively counter Breloom, a pokemon that can easily be picked to give us major headaches. They also handle Keldeo / Heatran well, resisting their attacks and then hitting hard. There really isn't any problems with Scizor, since Zor is walled by Rotom-W, nor should there be any problems with Ttar, for the same reason. If need be, we can choose a fighting type later (in fact, we should, to counter any extra steels) to counter Blissey / Chansey / Special walls.
  2. kd24

    kd24 people be stoopid
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,240
    fight rock bug dragon ghost dark psychic is the list of what attacks we're currently weak to. i'd rather hurry up and get a steel in here now before it comes down to fighting multiple rock / dragon attacks to keep up offensive presence. the only thing that has me worried is fighting at this point so i was thinking lets go with

    im going with my 3rd favorite mon

    [​IMG]
    Metagross @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 232 Spd / 252 Atk / 20 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Meteor Mash
    - Earthquake
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Explosion

    He outspeeds Keldeo and Heatran and OHKO both if need be, but more importantly is his fast explosion and resists. We can also consider Trick to trip up the mon they bring to stop Kyurem. Heatran is still a threat but Rotom-W just stops him. Metagross's high defense will help overall IMO.

    I just want to see a metagross not gonna lie
  3. TGMD

    TGMD n_n
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    896
    Hey symph, thanks for your input, these are some good suggestions. I, as well as alot of people I know (dragonuser, Lavos Spawn, etc), much prefer Modest Landorus, the extra power allows us to get alot of OHKOs / 2HKOs that we'd usually miss out on and extra bulk is always nice. But the speed just makes no difference whatsoever after a boost. I don't see how being outsped by Salamence makes much of a difference, as Landorus is not our revenge killer, if we want to prevent Salamence sweeping us then we can just add the inevitable revenge killer later on, rather thatn relying on our sweeper to revenge kill things instead. Psychic is a good suggestion, we miss out on Bronzong, Skarmory, Balloon Steels (all these can be trapped by the likes of Magnezone) and we do less damage to the likes of Rotom-W (who is terrible against Kyurem-B) in exhange for Gengar, Virizion, Heracross and more damage on the likes of Fighting types in general. I'm still a bit undecided so I'll let a few people say what they think and make the decision based on that. Again, thanks for the suggestions symph :)
  4. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2011
    Messages:
    130
    ^ Pretty much have my full support behind lando-t, I think he'd be a great sweeper for team 1 to rally around. I use this guy pretty religously and i agrree modest is pretty much needed as with timid alot of pokemon can barely hang on and ohk0 him back. I'm more leaning towards focus blast as gengar isnt a huge threat too our other two team members but im not positive which move to pick...
  5. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    The Lati twins and Landorus seem like pretty good choices for team 1 for now. However, Latias is considerably weaker than Latios, so I would think that Latios is the better pick. Still, both can nab an OHKO on Keldeo and deal with Heatran quite nicely.

    Landorus seems like one of the better choices, though, not being weak to U-turn and having good coverage along with Sheer Foce and LO
  6. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    442
    @The gr8 mighty doom:Don't get me wrong.I prefer the extra power of Modest Landorus as well.I'm just saying that team 1 can exploit the lack of max speed investment.Salamence was just an example,not a direct threat.If you feel that the lack of max speed can't be taken advantage of that much,then I'm fine with the current spread.
  7. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal Intelligence is a curse.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,266
    If we go with Latios:

    8 Hp / 252 SAtk / 244 Spe is the most efficent spread since the opposition will just use Lati and no HP Fire to ensure they win the speed war anyway.

    If we go with Landorus:

    NO FUCKING TIMID! Modest is super important.

    The EV spread. Adamant Gliscor (commonly seen on PO) hits 289. Crank up the speed to 212 so we outpace it (it gives you 1 extra point over 290, but keeping the HP at an odd number and at 9 gives you a better LO number). The other benefits are that 286 is a common number good players try to hit (with things like Jirachi or Toxicroak, etc.) and we get the jump on them now.

    Final Spread for Lando-I:

    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 44 Hp / 252 SAtk / 212 Spe
    IV: 30 Hp | 30 Def
    - Rock Polish
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast
  8. Remedy

    Remedy Vega Fabio de Cerna
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,234
    I guess it's 12HP and not 8 in your Latias spread.

    Landorus still doesn't kill Keldeo, I don't get it, maybe we should adapt a little to the situation.
    I know it's probably the strongest special sweeper in here now, but it's not a reason to rush it when it is not even able to kill both of the 2 already picked pokemons.
    We can't even really go for Psychic because the lack of coverage is big.
    I also don't understand the explanation on the speed, I mean, we all see how many EVs you invest etc, it's not gonna be hard to deal with it, so maybe focus on maximum tiers, instead of trying to speed creep Jirachi and cie.
  9. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    769
    Is this a submission, a suggestion, ... what? If it's the former, please include a sprite and say that is a submission. Maybe it's me getting confused easily...but I can't tell if you're proposing a new spread for those lando-I submitters or just submitting a new entry.

    Thank you.

    This phase will probably end in a couple of hours, so if you've a set you'd like to submit, either hurry up or drop me a VM.
  10. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal Intelligence is a curse.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,266
    Sorry. It's a suggestion to The Great Might Doom, whom has posted the Lando-I set. If he wishes to not take my advice that is fine but if you need clarification there it is. I'm not submitting a nomination, just suggesting.
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Boss characters make appearances in other stages
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    1,998
    @kd24: In general, having a steel type in this project isn't as important as it is in a normal team as we aren't trying to counter the whole metagame, just the opposing team. We can arguably not use a Steel at all if we have hard counters for each of the six members of the opposing team. I'm also not a big fan of having a Choice Scarf mon for this slot or one picked for it's defensive advantages as this is one of our few free picks. We have already countered Team 2's picks and now have the opportunity to choose whatever offensive mon we want to put massive pressure on their future picks. A Choice Scarf mon kinda ruins this opportunity. On top of this, Metagross is a specialized Revenge Killer. It's not something like Keldeo that can revenge kill just about any and every threat you would want it to. It's a niche mon and none of the opponent's picks ask for that niche (on the contrary, they have a Fire and Fight mons as their picks). Metagross is a pretty lackluster Pokemon in this generation and has poor coverage. Explosion isn't a very attractive attack as it means scrapping one of the six mons we so desperately need to try and counter the opposing six as much as we can. As cool as Metagross is, he just isn't bringing anything we really have the need for ATM (who knows what will happen later) and will just waste the amazing opportunity we have.

    @TGMD: Definitely go Psychic on Lando. Ballon steels are poor checks as they can't risk switching in and losing their Ballon. Skarm is a passive pick that is already countered by Rotom-W who can easily deal with Bronzong as well. At the same time, preventing Heracross from having an easy switch in is really important. We don't want to give Team 2 an excuse to use Gengar as well since it can already check Cube with SubDisable. Although Virizion will still be able to tank a Psychic, it at least won't permanently prevent a sweep as one well predicted switch-in will weaken it enough to get the OHKO when Lando finally decides to sweep. The perfect accuracy is also a good thing to have as the battle will undoubtedly be close since both teams will trying to counter each other as best as they can. (so it's better to not give any opportunity for Hax to become the deciding factor.

    @Shurtugal: Yes it is true that an opposing Lati@s with perfect IVs will outspeed our Latios no matter what, but by running max speed we can at least make sure that the same won't be true if Team 2 ever find themselves using HP Fire Lati@s. The 8 EVs in HP is almost never going to make a difference whereas speeding tying with other HP Fire Lati@s can. I'd much rather have Team 2 think twice before using a 30 speed IV than 2 extra HP points. Thanks for all the cool suggestions, though. (The EQ Lat@s one may come in handy for Team 2's counter pick if Lando-I is chosen this round)
  12. TGMD

    TGMD n_n
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    896
    Decided to go with Psychic over Focus Blast based off Melee Mewtwo and White Symphoni's posts.

    Landorus' Earth Power almost OHKOs Keldeo, this team is obviously going to utilize hazards because of Kyurem-B, so getting the residual damage of needed to bring Keldeo into KO range f via hazards / Dragon Tails isn't going to be very difficult. Either way, we're running Psychic now, and as it was pointed out in my post, Psychic really doesn't cause us to lose that much coverage. I agree with you on speed creeping, Gliscor can just run Jolly if it wants to outspeed Landorus, I'd prefer to just outspeed the + nature base 80s before boost and + nature base 80s at double speed after the boost.
  13. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal Intelligence is a curse.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,266
    @TGMD

    I'm a bit confused. Do you plan on adding the small amount of investment for 291 (speed creeps adamant scor and hits LO #) or do you plan to just hit 286 (like before)? From what it looks like you just dumped the rest into HP anyway and the loss of a few points in health is worth the hitting of adamant Scor (which could Acrobat revenge you) and smacking them for HP Ice is worth the small loss of bulk imo.

    I don't agree with hitting maximum tiers when you don't have to. However, you mentioned Jolly Gliscor -- and that thing is quite weak. I'd rather force Team 2 to carry such a weak advisory then to not include the speed and have them get the option of adamant. In general terms, Adamant Scor is more common than Jolly Scor. You still outspeed base 80s, but hitting that LO # and having insurance is worth the loss of (I think 20) evs in HP imo.
  14. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    769
    Thanks Shurtugal for the explanation!

    Ok, I cut short of few hours this phase (since I would not be able to post later), hope it's not a problem for anyone. We're now going to vote for the third pokemon of Team 1.

    This is a single bold voting; you can vote for only one entry, picked from the following list:

    When voting, you should post only the name of the user that proposed your favourite set, bolded (you can add whatever commentary you like, not bolded, under your vote). A properly formatted vote looks like this:

    Self voting is allowed. You'll have at least 24 hours to vote, but I'll keep this opened for as long as is necessary to get a significative amount of voters. Christmas is coming, so phases' durations could be a bit inflated in this period, to make sure everyone has a chance to contribute.

    Go!
  15. Alexander.

    Alexander.
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,583
    The Great Mighty Doom's RP Landorus
  16. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal Intelligence is a curse.
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,266
    RP Landorus by TGMD

    I've explained personal changes above.
  17. TGMD

    TGMD n_n
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    896
    The Great Mighty Doom

    I'm going to keep the current EV spread. Thanks for your suggestions, but if we add those EVs they won't run max speed Adamant Gliscor, so we're just wasting those EVs. But why would they run a max speed Adamant Gliscor anyway? They're trying to counter us, why run a pokemon that's outsped and OHKOd when Landorus is at +2? Gliscor isn't very good against our Rotom-W anyway, so it's really not a likely choice for them, if they want to revenge kill us at +0 then they can just go to Keldeo and do it anyway. Also, Life Orb numbers are cool, but Hidden Power [Ice] is the only thing that makes us take Life Orb recoil, so it doesn't really help too much. Again, thanks for the suggestions though :)
  18. Iluvkyogre

    Iluvkyogre

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2012
    Messages:
    51
    Tgmd's RP Landorus
  19. Enguarde

    Enguarde Fool!
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Messages:
    558
    G-Von

    I thought Forretress would appear sooner or later to provide spin support and lay hazards which Kyurem-B would definitely appreciate in order for it to be used to its full potential, as well as Rotom-W being a nice partner :]
  20. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    556
    I'll have to go with Melee Mewtwo's Latios. I like the type synergy and dual dragon early on with two entirely different roles.
  21. Crackstar

    Crackstar

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    38
    The Great Mighty Doom's RP Landorus
  22. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Boss characters make appearances in other stages
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    1,998
    Melee Mewtwo

    This is probably going to be really close as Latios and Lando-I were clearly the two best options. They both are very similar in that Team 2 has no choice but to go defensive. The main differences are:
    1. Latios has resistances that let it switch in easily whereas Lando is going to have to rely on prediction and Rotom's slow Volt Switch to get in safely.
    2. Latios is a speedy nuke whereas Lando-I is a mid-late game cleaner. Latios has the advantage of an almighty dragon STABed Draco Meteor with complentary coverage that it can abuse with it's blazing 110 speed. However, Draco Meteor's Sp. Attack drop means it won't be pulling any straight sweeps. Lando is also very dangerous to switch into and is impossible to revenge kill without priority once it Rock Polishes. Sadly, it's pretty slow at +0 and is going to need that boost to get its sweep.

    I'm opting for Latios just cause its resistances means it's going to be coming in more often and doing more damage overall. (Assuming Team 2 doesn't make the mistake of picking Lando fodder) Again, both are epic picks and it's going to be the details that make the difference.
  23. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    96
    The great mighty doom's RP Landorus
  24. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2011
    Messages:
    130
    the great mighty doom
  25. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    174
    The Great Mighty Doom

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)