Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. G-Von

    G-Von

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    Changed the EV spread. I understand Zam is not easy to switch in whatsoever, but it isn't meant to be coming in and out continuously throughout the match. Its meant to clean up the opposing team once it is able to get a free switch in.

    Calcs:
    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Alakazam: 222-262 (88.44 - 104.38%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO

    This is the only pokemon that can outspeed Zam as of right now and does not even score a guaranteed OHKO. Of course the opposing team could still pick Politoed and completely ruin that since Keldeo would have a rain boosted Hydro Pump. like I have said previously, in the hands of a good player (which it will be), Kazam will do massive damage.
  2. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal Intelligence is a curse.
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    Team 2 really hates CMRoost Latias.

    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 252 hp / 4satk / 252 spe
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Surf
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute

    Virtually can set up to +2 on anything but Wash, and Lum is a huge help. Comments?

    Sub > Roost and the item is leftovers. Team 1 gets last pick so I'm not worried about Tar; especially since Tias is amazing vs. the opposition. Also, I'm a her T_T
  3. ClubbingSealCub

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    Gvon, I guarantee team 2 won't pick politoed. Team 1 has last pick and can just retaliate by taking specs kingdra on it.
  4. G-Von

    G-Von

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    Not only that, but it would hinder the hell out of their Heatran, too. I just brought that up because it would be the only way Keldeo could OHKO Alakazam no questions asked.
  5. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    Wouldn't signal beam be better on Alakazam for Celebi?It hits Celebi for 280 BP comapred to Shadow Balls 160.

    Also,I don't see the benefit of CB over LO terrakion here other than loss of LO recoil.The ability to switch moves should be much more useful than the a bit of extra power.If Team 2 is going to pick a Terrakion check,they'll go for hard checks and won't go for something that avoids OHKOs/2HKOs in that little power gap.

    You mean Celebi instead of wash.Wash is on Team1.

    This looks pretty insteresting.But how does Sub>Roost and Leftovers for Item sound?Sub protects it from celebi's Twave, and Celebi can't touch it any more.Same goes for Heatran,as it can only roar out Latias.The lack of extra recovery isn't much of a Let down as 3 out of 4 of Team 2's pokemons have trouble with just breaking the sub while the other one is outsped and KOed at +1 or 2HKOed at +0.Keldeo can threaten the Subs with HP ice but that isn't much of a issue when adding Latias's immense special bulk,boosting it to higher levels.Infact at +2,Keldeo can't even break the Subs at all while having a small chance on +1,(22-26% damage at +1)

    Also,how about changing it's stat spread to 4HP/252 SpAtk/252 speed?With this spread Keldeo can't still break Latias's Subs at +2 while maximizing damage output on Heatran and OHKOing Hydreigon unboosted.It also helps against a possible pursuiter on Team 2 in their future picks such as Ttar or Scizor.Although I don't really know about the losses with lower bulk,so it is more of a thought.
  6. Shurtugal

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    Mainly, I wanted surf for Heatran since it has roar, thus no Sub.
  7. TyranitarAbuser

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    Doesn't Celebi wall Latias? And CB over LO is really insignificant, plus, there might be a need to switch up moves.

    Also, I notice that the OP has not Been updated.
  8. G-Von

    G-Von

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    First off, yea, it would be a stronger option, but what would I replace it with?Psyshock is for STAB and to hit special walls (Chansey, Blissey, Snorlax, etc.), Substitute is for mind games and scouting, and FB and Shadow Ball give me perfect coverage. There's really no room for Signal Beam.

    Secondly, Signal Beam on Celebi is 300 BP, not 280.
  9. Melee Mewtwo

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    Yeah that's kinda my problem with it. It can't lend a helping hand early-mid game since it can't switch in without ending up face to face with it's strong check/shaky counter. It can only clean up the team once Celebii is gone or significantly weakened (especially if it wants to keep enough HP to dodge the Hydro Pump OHKO) which means it's kinda a sitting duck for the majority of the game. Yes, in the hands of a good player (which we can't exactly assume as IIRC anybody can participate in the battle) it can clean up the opposing team nicely but so can many other possible choices. (Plus, these are pretty much the exact same win conditions for a Lando-I sweep)

    CBTerrakion is still a stronger wall breaker though I would personally prefer DoubleDance.

    He was saying drop Roost for Substitute which is a good idea. Although, the push towards a Tyranitar/Scizor pick isn't too welcoming as the former softens Rotom-W enough for a 2HKO by Secret Sword after SR (although, that is situational and it kinda bites back for Celebii as well) while the latter is a great check to Cube and Lando-I.
  10. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Glad to see some good discussion back in this thread. I'll wait till tomorrow to give Shurtugal time to edit his/her post (in case it's still needed), then I'll open the vote.
  11. lokt

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    [​IMG]
    Mienshao @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
    Naive Nature
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Grass Knot
    - U-turn
    Mienshao can beat any pokemon on team 2 1v1 except for scarf keldeo. Hi jump kick ohkos hydreigon and heatran, and does 90.74 - 107.09% to keldeo. The main reason to use mienshao instead of terrakion is because mienshao is able to go mixed and can beat certain walls that terrakion can't get through, such as hippowdon, gliscor, and landorus-therian. Mienshao also has access to u-turn and regenerator which puts team 2 under a large amount of pressure. Mienshao, however struggles against ghost types, but these can be u-turned out of and trapped by pursuit.
  12. TGMD

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    [​IMG]
    Heracross @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Stone Edge
    - Night Slash

    Heracross is a phenominal choice for Team 1 atm. Heracross' dual STABs hit 3 out of 4 of Team 2's Pokemon for super-effective damage and it outspeeds the entirety of the opposing team bar Keldeo, but that doesn't matter because Heracross resists Keldeo's dual STABs and takes piddly damage from Hidden Power [Ice]. Heracross doesn't have too much trouble coming in either, it can switch in via Rotom-W's Volt Switch, and it can also easily switch in on Keldeo, and even Celebi to an extent (doesn't mind anything other than Thunder Wave, but even that can actually be more of a help than a hinderance at times due to Guts.) It has great synergy with the rest of the team, all its weaknesses are resisted by Rotom-W other than Psychic, but nothing else on the team has a problem with Psychic types anyway, Heracross also resists alot of the team's weaknesses, such as Rotom-W's Grass Weakness, Landorus' Water Weakness, Kyurem-B's Fighting Weakness, etc. Nothing on Team 2 can even safely switch in on Heracross until it locks itself into a move, all this makes Heracross a huge threat to Team 2 and a huge asset to Team 1. I chose the Choice Scarf set because all the other sets speed tie with Hydreigon, the lack of speed of the other sets means it's easily checked offensively and really won't be that threatening to the opposing team, the sweeper sets aren't the best for the team because we already have a sweeper in Landorus, having a revenge killer is always nice, and the extra speed makes it alot more difficult to check offensively, so it forces Team 2 to pick a more passive Heracross check. Finally, I chose Guts over Moxie, as not only does this mean there are some benefits to being Paralyzed by Celebi as well as giving us a good status absorber in general, it's also probably better than Moxie in this particular situation, as Heracross is nowhere near as threatening to Team 2 when it's locked into a move compared to how it is when it's not, eg. Heracross kills something with Close Combat and gets the Moxie boost, but then it's walled by Celebi, it kills something with Megahorn and gets the Moxie boost, but then it's walled by Heatran. However, please feel free to suggest changes to this set, as I'm no expert on Heracross by any means and It'd be good for the project to have more discussion :)

    EDIT: Please disregard any mentions of Heracross resisting Water, it was a complete brain fart likely caused by the fact I was looking at the Breloom submission and In my head I was thinking I was submitting a Grass / Bug Pokemon or soemthing, idk, lol, I brain fart a lot :/
  13. G-Von

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    Heracross really is a great pokemon and one that should be feared. It's a personal favorite of mine and I actually brought it up a couple times during the last CTP thread. With that said, I don't think its a good selection this time around and here is why. You claim Hera resists Keldeo's dual STAB's and Lando's water weakness, however, Bug/Fighting typing does not resist water. Also, he may resist some types his teammates are weak to, but Hera is not meant to switch into moves like that. All the pokemon listed for this discussion cannot be safely switched into either. The main problem with Heracross is that he cannot break through its checks and counters like CB Terrakion and cannot switch up moves after a kill like Alakazam. It will be forced to switch out and put the pressure on Team 1. Finally, getting paralyzed by Celebi gives no boon to Hera even if it has Guts; the main reason for its use is now neutered. Without the speed from the Choice Scarf, it completely loses its ability to revenge kill.
  14. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

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    Why not replace shadow ball on Alakazam with signal beam?? I mean the main purpose for shadow ball is hitting psychics which signal beam does just fine, and completely murders Celebi and can hit hydreigon more reliably than focus blast. Unless im missing something it seems like the right choice.
  15. TGMD

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    Ok, first of all I know bug doesn't resist water, that was a brain fart likely caused by the fact I was looking at the Breloom submission while posting this XD It's irrelevant whether you think Heracross should or should not be switching into moves because the fact that it can switch into their weaknesses may save us in a tight spot when we have to predict to win the battle. Heracross may not be able to beat down counters, but it's a scarfer that forces them to either pick passively or let Heracross be a huge threat to their team. Lastly, I never said that getting paralysed is a good thing, of course it's not, I just said there would at least be some benefits to it happening rather than it being all bad.
  16. Bryce

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    @Shurtugal:I didn't suggest replacing Surf.I suggested replacing roost for Sub

    @G-Von:SB and FB might give perfect coverage but like gengernemesis said,it serves the same role of SB which is hitting psychics while hittingCelebi much harder and a reliable way of hitting Hydreigon outside of inaccurate focus miss which I hadn't notice earlier.Psyshock already hits genger for SE damage and hits other ghosts hard.The likes of Jelly and Dusclops are unlikely picks at this point too.
  17. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    So glad many of you came back to this project. Let's vote for pokemon 4, team 2.

    This is a single bold voting; you can vote for only one entry, picked from the following list:

    When voting, you should post only the name of the user that proposed your favourite set, bolded (you can add whatever commentary you like, not bolded, under your vote). A properly formatted vote looks like this:

    Self voting is allowed. You'll have at least 24 hours to vote. Go!
  18. ClubbingSealCub

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    ClubbingSealCub

    Honestly think is the best choice. 'S why I nominated it.
  19. TGMD

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    The Great Mighty Doom
  20. Shurtugal

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  23. G-Von

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  25. Bryce

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