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Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. Frizy

    Frizy dont change my ct fuckers
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  2. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Vote is closed, and Novaray's Scizor is the fifth pokemon of Team 2, although it seems to me that a bunch of voters came out of nowhere just to vote for him (many of you never posted ONCE before now, so yeah, let me be a little suspicious at the very least).

    I'll update the OP as soon as possible with the new Scizor pick. Discussion for the last pokemon of Team 2 can begin. As usual, roughly 3-4 days for the nominations. Go!
  3. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    After scizor we have 1 pick to choose a poke that gets rocks and counters gyarados. We also probably don't want another steel cause that makes us very weak to fighting. We also need something to do to heracross. From some players they'd just magically come out with a poke that fits all them but really I have no idea. Except I can but it's not exactly an offensive poke.
    [​IMG]
    Skarmory Leftovers
    252 defence 252hp 4 speed Impish
    Brave bird
    Stealth rock
    Whirlwind
    Roost
    This poke means team 1 can't have their volt turn core while continuously walling team 1. I could run more special bulk just so team 1 can only beat us with rotom which would rely hugely on rotom and they're already relying on it enough. It beats probably our 2 biggest problems, gets up rocks and means no volt turn for them. So what do you think and should I change it's ev spread or moves?
  4. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

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    Ugh, just what I wanted to avoid. Magnezone will completely wreck us if we choose another Steel. Maybe we could bring back Ganj4IF's Deo-D? That seems like a good physical wall while allowing us to hit Zone and Hera with HP Fire. Right now, anything but Scozor seems good.

    No offense Novaray, but Scizor doesn't seem like it can set up its SD on anything.
  5. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    I have a different take on Skarmory that should be useful for Team 2 while risking less to Zone.

    [​IMG]
    Skarmory (M) @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Whirlwind
    - Roost
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes

    What does this set do? A bit of a strange take on the Skarm set but it serves a niche purpose and pulls it off nicely. Physically defensive spread lets Skarm counter both Heracross and Mamoswine while Shed Shell lets it escape from the clutches of Magnezone. Double hazards provides very important support to Team 2 as they very quickly wear away Team 1's counter picks. Skarmory has multiple opportunities to abuse them as its typing and titanic defense allow it to set them up on Lando-I, Heracross, Mamoswine and Kyurem-B. Roost keeps him in good condition so that he can switch in as often as needed. Whirlwind discourages Kyurem-B from setting up while Skarm lays his layers. (although don't bank on it totally as Cube's DTail is faster) It also helps mess with predicted Rotom-W switch-ins by racking up extra passive damage and to annoy the rest of the team with hazard shuffling.

    Calcs (open)

    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 113-134 (33.93 - 40.24%) -- 43.58% chance to 3HKO

    252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 109-129 (32.73 - 38.73%) -- 6.25% chance to 3HKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 133-157 (39.93 - 47.14%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 110-131 (33.03 - 39.33%) -- 15.82% chance to 3HKO

    0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 29-35 (8.7 - 10.51%) -- 9HKO at best

    +6 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 117-138 (35.13 - 41.44%) -- 81.05% chance to 3HKO


    How can this set help the team? Counters both Heracross and Mamoswine while dodgeing Magnezone and supports the team with hazards.

    What can the other team do in response to this set? Since this set is just a wall that sets up hazards, Skarmory is dead weight against any Rapid Spin user or Magic Bounce Pokemon.

    What potential additions can be made to deal with these responses? This is our last pick for Team 2.
  6. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Hehehe, you rushed too fast for it !
    Indeed Deoxys-D is not the only one able to do that. Moreover, Deoxys-D is forced out by Megahorn.
    But, I see another pokemon able to wall Mamoswine, to set SR, who is not a Steel pokemon.. And guess what ? he also walls Heracross AND he can take Landorus's hit and kill him.. In fact he also beats Mamoswine 1v1 and kill him.

    Who can be this pokemon ?!


    [​IMG] @ Leftovers/Rindo Berry
    Trait : Torrent
    EVs : 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
    Nature : Relaxed
    - Scald
    - Stealth Rock
    - Protect
    - Stone Edge



    Okay let's go with some calculations :
    - Against Mamoswine. You live 2 hits. And if he hits you twice (let's say that you switched Swampert in on an Earthquake) then you're in Torrent range and you kill him in one shot. Mamoswine's case cleared.

    - Heracross, you take 40 % from his most powerful Attack. So, with Leftovers you took 34. You can even Protection in a pitch to save some HP. So let's say in a 1V1, Heracross has a potential of damages of 28. It's allriight. The tricky thing here, is that you better not burn him with Scald most of the time, but with Protect, a Burn can be good in the long term.
    Indeed once you burned him, you can safely scout his move, and then switch to a pokemon able to fully wall it like Celebi/Heatran. Heracross's case cleared.

    - Landorus. Even if Swampert is a physical wall here, he take around 70% from Earthpower from Landorus. Meaning that Swampert can take a hit, and kill back this sweeper too (it's a OHKO by Scald + SR if Torrent is on) ! No matter how many RP he could stack, he can at worse be stopped by our PHYSICAL wall. Landorus's case cleared.


    The good thing with Swampert over all the nominations that I saw, is that you can kill all the sweepers of the first team, and still bring to the team 2 the defensive and SR support it needs.

    What can do the opposite team ?

    Well, Magic bouncers are kinda pointless, same goes for spinner. Anyway, they will pick a wall to Scizor, like a Steel pokemon. Swampert is just fine against every Steel.
    That's why, I want some discussion around the choice between Ice Beam/Earthquake.
    Ice Beam helps against Landorus, but anyway, Scald can bring Landorus in the KO range of Celebi's Psychic or Scizor unboosted Bullet Punch, so I don't think he really deserves a slot.
    My point, we could toss Earthquake here but it's likely that team 1 picks Skarmory to get an access to Spikes, and ignore Earth attacks. Scald deals with Skarmory, by attempt to burn him and ruining his ability to wall stuff on the long term. Moreover they have many immunities to Ground, this could be a free switch in we let.
    If you got some ideas about this slot, feel free to propose it.


    One last good thing about Swampert, is that this pokemon will put the pressure on Rotom-W by forcing him to take Scalds and once Rotom-W has been burned, Keldeo's sweeper days get brighter.


    About Deoxys-D and Skarmory picks. As suggested an issue with SKarmory is that it gets trapped.
    An issue about Deoxys-D, is that Xatu looks really annoying now, the bird can decently take everybody hits, put a Screen, and kill Scizor (the only one able to damages it without being locked like Keldeo) with Heatwave.
    Something like Heatwave (Scizor), Psychic (Keldeo), Roost and Screen/Status would be a Pain. The bird could switch in everytime we send Deoxys-D and react to any following switch.

    That's all I got.



    EDIT : I WITHDRAW THIS NOMINATION (but let the calcs and the logic, we never know it could be useful for someone)
  7. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Ah yes Swampert, I love this guy sooo much. The reason I overlooked him was because I stopped looking at the calcs once I started hitting the 50% damage mark. This brings up my problem with Swampert:

    Calcs (open)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 181-214 (45.13 - 53.36%) -- 39.45% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 153-181 (38.15 - 45.13%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    He's not a counter, he's a check seeing as he risks a 2HKO (Mamo outspeeds) even at 100% HP if he switches in on Earthquake. Even Icicle Crash takes a huge chunk and seeing as Pert lacks any recovery outside out of Protect spam, Mamoswine can easily switch out to Rotom and be Volt Switched back in. (unless you want to pick away at it with Scald while risking losing about 50% from Hydro Pump)


    As for Xatu, I was looking at some calcs to try to look ahead into possible counter picks and I noticed that he takes about 58.38 - 68.56% from +2 Bullet Punch and around 87.12 - 102.69% from +2 Bug Bite so it's only a check to Scizor at most. Seeing as Deo-D is just a Mamoswine counter that provides Hazards support to wear down the Team 1's counter, I would rather just grab a Zone and trap their win condition. (Still looking for other responses though, that Hydreigon is extra threatening with SR + Spikes out)

    I hope gen 6 gives something cool for Pert cause I really miss him.
  8. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    These are legit points, let me answer to them.

    First Mamoswine VS Swampert

    As you calculated, Swampert got 36% to get killed, which is less than 50%. Meaning than Swampert has more chances to kill Mamoswine than the contrary. In this case, a good competitive player would not do this choice because it has 64% to fail.
    Anyway, you noticed that my Swampert got Protection. Let's assume that we have 50% to do Protect or not on the second turn (I mean, player 1 got no way to guess if the Swampert will protection or not, thus, he should assume that the probability is around 1/2). In this case, to kill Swampert Mamoswine needs to hit good rolls (36) and to not stay on a Protect (50%). Leaving a mere 18%. This situation is not really likely to happen.
    Moreover, this is a worst case scenario, indeed, in your calc, you did consider that SR were on the field.
    Do you realise, that it does cost one turn to Mamoswine to do so (and he can't set it against many of ou pokemons), and that if he uses this move on the turn we switch to Swampter we won't take SR damages. Thus, Swampert will be totally safe from any 2HKO, because if he did SR the turn we switch in, we're full HP and force him back and if he did Earthquake, it means that SR aren't on the field, thus Swampert is safe and ready to KO back Mamoswine.

    This thing is cleared.

    Xatu

    That's all I needed to know. The bird can outspeed Scizor, and KO it with HeatWave while resisting a +2 Bullet Punch. What do you want more ?
    Scizor can't sweep if Xatu is healthy (and since he will only switch on Deoxys-D, he will stay healthy).

    Now, about your Deoxys-D :

    I asked myself some questions, and I believe that this is a bad idea to nominate him. Because he can't threaten Mamoswine. But you may think :
    Why would he need to threaten Mamoswine if he can wall it ?
    Let me elaborate this :
    252Atk Life Orb Mamoswine (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/84Def Leftovers Deoxys (+Def): 43% - 51% (132 - 157 HP).

    First, you can be 2HKOd with SR damages if Deoxys-D does not Recover the following turn. But this won't be my point.

    My point will be, let's draw a picture :

    Your Deoxys-D is on the field and is not threatened by the opposing pokemon. He will SR this Turn.
    I'm against you and I decide to switch in Mamoswine "god what a fool". Well not really ..
    Now Deoxys-D is against Mamoswine, and there is no reason for you to switch right ? because your Deoxys-D is supposed to deal with Mamoswine.

    And what happens now ?
    You spike up (yes, why would you switch Deoxys-D out ? it's your Mamoswine answer) as I decide to Earthquake.
    You're at 59% (you lose 47% on average and recover 6% from Leftovers) and Mamoswine is full hp.
    Next turn, you HAVE to Recover, else you'll be on the range of Earthquake+Ice Shard. So here you go and Recover, I use Earthquake.

    I believe that you see my point now, nothing, absolutly nothing contains me from spamming Earthquake on your wall, and this, untill I get a crit (which will happen sooner or later) and then finish you with Ice Shard.
    So, your Deoxys-D will need, to stall the Life Orb recoil. That is your plan to deal with Mamoswine in fact, cross your fingers for 8 Turns.
    And let's say that you can do it, let's say that Mamoswine did not get a crit.
    Obviously, probably that for the last turns, you'll try to switch to Celebi, stall the LO recoil etc.
    But, what I mean is that Deoxys-D does not mean "wall Mamoswine and get free hazards", it means "LO stall Mamoswine".

    Finally, Deoxys-D as it stands could be a good set up bait for many things. For instance, a Volcarona fast enough, could come on Deoxys-D each time you switch him in and Quiver Dance. GigaDrain/HPGround/BugBuzz could be the set, killing everybody, no exception.
    Keldeo with HPump can't kill him once he get +1 in SpD, so Volcarona will Quiver Dance to +2 and recover HP peacefully.
    However, this made me realise that Swampert aswell, could be set-up for Volcarona, thus, I may chose Stone Edge in order to hit both Volcarona and Heracross a little harder.
  9. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    You missed the point where Mamoswine takes a chunk out of Pert as he switches in and then passes to Rotom-W who Volt Switches as Pert is forced out. (If you want to risk your Mamo check staying in and fishing for burn hax be my guest) This only needs to be done once before Pert can't safely switch in anymore.

    I'd like a counter to their win condition, not just a check. Xatu has to be switching into Scizor as well as Deo-D so just one well timed unboosted Bug Bite on the switch-in means that he can't check +2 Scizor anymore. (Don't tell me Roost, that's a risky play as another Bug Bite OHKOs as Xatu loses his Flying typing)



    Throwing your Mamoswine to LO damage fishing for crit hax is really risky and a pretty dumb play on their part. I'm not sure why you think Deo-D is being
    slowly worn away as Mamo can never hit more than 51% and Deo heals 56% from Recover + lefties. (Plus, we are already using Celebii to LO stall Lando who just needs a crit to get past him, too.)

    You can't really set up much when Deo packs taunt with the exception of Volcarona, who suffers from a very hard SR weakness.
  10. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Okay, to make this thing simpler for everybody I'll sum up to one thing.
    If you chose Deoxys-D, I win the game by picking Volcarona. This is simple as that.

    Because, if you switch Deoxys-D, I just have to switch Volcarona the next turn.
    - If you set SR on the turn I switch, I Quiver Dance when you taunt or switch or w/e. And the game is over.
    - If you taunt on the turn I switch (nice prediction), I do that
    252SpAtk Life Orb Volcarona (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/0SpDef Deoxys (Neutral): 94% - 112% (288 - 342 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 70% chance to OHKO.
    You can switch to Heatran, I do that after
    252SpAtk Life Orb Volcarona (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Ground) vs 4HP/0SpDef Flash Fire Heatran (Neutral): 130% - 155% (424 - 504 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    So you're forced to switch to Keldeo, which makes the play really easy to predict and I'll do that on the switch
    252SpAtk Life Orb Volcarona (+SAtk) Giga Drain vs 4HP/0SpDef Keldeo (Neutral): 81% - 96% (264 - 312 HP).
    On Keldeo, HP Ground/BugBuzz 2HKO factoring SR damagesx2. Meaning that you better not count on him more than once or it will be the game.
    After this switch to Keldeo, I'll switch to Rotom-W peacefully, waiting for you to switch to anything because it does not matter since I will volt-switch to VOlcarona in any case. And if you catch Rotom-W on the switch with Secret Sword (nice prediction), I will just sacrifice Rotom-W then put Volcarona and Quiver dance to win the game.
    Needless to say that Hydreigon and Celebi are OHKO'd by Bug Buzz too.
    If the opponent predict your switch and Quiver Dance, you lost.
    Oh, I forgot Scizor, but Scizor can't touch and Volcarona will kill it with HP Ground after some Quiver Dances.

    So, Volcarona is about to be your worst nightmare. And the fire butterfly's weakness to SR will not matter the slightest because if you set SR, it means that you lost the game.
    And even with SR in fact, Volcarona will be the pokemon that will 6HKO at 100%.

    Now that I realise this, I'll toss Stone Edge, definitely on Swampert to not let him Set-up. But I must admit that at the moment, I believe that Volcarona seals the fate of the team 2 in almost any case. I'm considering a Ringo Berry on Swampert to say the truth -_-
    But at least, Swampert does not let Volcarona set-up, and we can revenge it with Keldeo.

    In fact we are almost forced to pick a full counter to the version that I mentionned.
    If someone got an idea, it's your chance to shine, I'm too lazy to change my nomination so deeply, a Dragon would fit the bill, or the Skarm for instance, but the Skar can be countered pretty badly aswell.
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    Yeah, I overlooked Volcarona so I'll switch Taunt for Twave on Deo-D. Kyurem may be able to set up but being paralyzed will mess with any attempt to SubRoost stall and we have Heatran to force it out.
  12. G-Von

    G-Von

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    This voting period is going to suck balls. Every selection has been damn good. What I really want is a poke to lay hazard(s), not get trapped, and Rapid Spin. Technically, that selection would be Claydol, since he avoids Arena Trap I guess (fuck Shadow Tag), but I'm not about that life. My selection will be:
    [​IMG]
    Donphan@Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EV's: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Attack
    Nature: Impish
    -Earthquake
    -Stealth Rock
    -Rapid Spin
    -Ice Shard

    What does this set do? Well, it walls the fuck out of Heracross. Cube can't do much to it without a few Hones Claw boosts. It can actually beat Landorus 1v1 thanks to Ice Shard's priority with SR. Obvious hazard setting is obvious along with Rapid Spin support. It can also live any hit thanks to Sturdy, thus guaranteeing SR to be set up. Also, Mamo can't switch into an EQ, otherwise he is history or must switch out.

    How can this set help the team? We can set up the much needed Stealth Rock to help make non-guaranteed OHKO'S/2HKO's guaranteed. Donphan also spins hazards away that would prevent those OHKO's/2HKO's from happening.

    What can the other team do in response to this set? Add any special attacker with a STAB Ice/Grass/Water move. It can still do it's job, but will be scared of that 6th addition if Team 1 does go that route.
  13. Melee Mewtwo

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    We still need a Mamoswine counter (and a Heracross one if we can do both) which is the big drawback to Donphan. I understand it beats Heracross but he is a scarfmon which means he gets locked into unboosted attacks whereas Mamoswine has flexibilty and immense power in his attacks so he is a bigger threat.
  14. G-Von

    G-Von

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    Yea I realized that when I was making the set. Mamo 2HKO's after SR and the chance is still high without it, too. I just feel like the main selling point is the fact that Donphan can spin hazards away and 100% set up SR.

    BTW, depending on Volc's EV's Remedy, the moveset you proposed would end up losing to Scizor after 1 SD.
  15. Reymedy

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    It can, but there are low chances for this to happen.
    First because Scizor would NEED to SD on a switch. And, Landorus is here to handle this situation and force him out.
    Heracross has also high chances to live a +2 Bullet Punch, and lower Scizor (once Scizor is under 50%, I switch Volcarona in and start rampage).
    Worst case scenario, I send Celebi and T-Wave him, so Rotom-W can HPump and open the way for Volcarona.
    And this, happens ONLY if Scizor has the balls to SD predicting a switch. And you know what ? If I was against Scizor, I would just NOT switch and force him to not SD (Earthquake with Mamo, attack with Heracross, Dragon Tail with the totally countered Kyurem-b, T-Wave Celebi and HPump with Rotom-W), why ? because Scizor cannot kill anybody at +0. If he does so, I put my Volcarona in and win the game right after the death of one of my pokemons.

    So even in this case, I'm allright.
    Let's not forget that Scizor can be burned by Flame body, and if he is, it's the game.


    For the ThunderWave on Deoxys-D Mewtwo. Volcarona can still take Lum Berry. This would make the fight against Scizor a little harder, but not change much to the situation because I miss no KO on everybody else and can +1 easily.
    Imagine if you LO recoil stall Mamoswine and I put my Volcarona afterwards, I can +1 and you got nothing to prevent it.
    In fact, I can just sac somebody anytime on Hydreigon, then put my Volcarona in and win also.

    And obviously, the set is an exemple, I could totally drop Giga Drain if I consider that Keldeo is handled by Rotom-W (remember that he can't use Secret Sword or Volcarona set-up after). So why not a Fire move, I clear Scizor case.
    For instance with Fire Blast, Keldeo would need to have 77% to not let me sweep. Because if he comes when I'm at +1 to revenge kill, I boost one last time on the HPump, and Fire Blast him.
    This is just an example.
  16. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
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    The problem with Volcarona is that SR weakness. Once Keldeo forces it out the first time, it can't do much else. So, worst case scenario I set up SR with Deo-D while Volca comes in, pass to Keldeo as you do whatever, you switch out to save Volca and the next time it comes in I just have to scrap one mon to bring Keldeo in safely to call it a day. (since he only has two switch ins and Keldeo OHKO's unboosted Volca while easily OHKOing a boosted one after SR)


    I'm keeping TWave, though, as it also catches Heracross switch ins. (I thought those calcs were LO Volca which is why I put on TWave)
  17. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    Okay... so this set may be a bit unorthodox, but take a look...

    [​IMG]
    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Adamant, Intimidate, 252 Atk / 8 Def / 248 Spd
    ~ Substitute
    ~ Waterfall
    ~ Stone Edge
    ~ Toxic

    Now, I know what you're thinking--no Stealth Rock? Blasphemous! How can we run a team with Heatran's phazing capabilities and against Kyurem-B, no less? Well, let me break this down for you and explain why I think that this set would absolutely wreak the opposing team's best plays against our own.

    We've been talking about Mamoswine and Heracross, wishing that we could come up with a counter to both of them. Look no further than Gyarados, folks. Even after switching into Stealth Rock, Gyarados can survive two hits from either of Heracross' STAB attacks, Mamoswine's Icicle Crash, and obviously doesn't care about Earthquake thanks to Intimidate and its many resistances. The only thing it minds from Heracross is Stone Edge (not the best attack to lock itself into), and it simply doesn't care about Mamoswine. With the given EV spread, it also out-speeds Team 1's Mamoswine, meaning that it can't ever switch-in to bypass Intimidate, as it will be swiftly KO'd by Waterfall.

    More importantly, Team 1 really only has one current switch-in to Gyarados, and that's Rotom-W. Heracross surely won't switch-in, and neither will Mamoswine. Kyurem-B won't want to switch in fearing Stone Edge, and we out-speed it, anyway. Landorus is faster than Gyarados, and Psychic will definitely take a chunk of health... but Waterfall is a swift KO. But, with Toxic, Rotom-W will not want to come in against the almighty Magikarp evolution. When Gyarados comes in against something from Team 1, it can set up Substitute on the switch to Rotom-W. Since Gyarados comfortable out-speeds it, it can quickly land a Toxic against it, meaning that it's days will be numbered. Team 1 relies on a very healthy Rotom-W to protect against Heatran and Keldeo. With its primary counter being inflicted with toxin and with no way to protect itself from dying other than Pain Split, Team 2 will immediately steal momentum.

    Even more importantly, when Rotom-W Volt Turns out (after being inflicted with Toxic) and breaks Gyarados' substitute, what will it switch to? Kyurem-B is out-sped and takes decent damage from Stone Edge and would COMPLETELY die from Toxic. Landorus can come in and go for a Psychic, but Gyarados will have at least 67%-73% health by this point (due to Leftovers recovery even after Stealth Rock damage / Substitute) and can live a hit to KO it with Waterfall. Heracross can come in and go for a Stone Edge, but we can take advantage of the locked attack and bring in Keldeo. Mamoswine can't come in at all. But Rotom-W has no choice but to Volt Switch, as Hydro Pump does pitiful damage, and Thunder Wave and Pain Split can't pierce a Substitute.

    Let's take a look at some calculations:

    Heracross:
    -1 252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 76-90 (22.96 - 27.19%) -- possible 5HKO
    252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 114-135 (34.44 - 40.78%) -- 64.18% chance to 3HKO

    -1 252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 76-90 (22.96 - 27.19%) -- possible 5HKO
    252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 114-135 (34.44 - 40.78%) -- 64.18% chance to 3HKO

    -1 252 Atk Heracross Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 60-71 (18.12 - 21.45%) -- possible 7HKO
    252 Atk Heracross Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 90-106 (27.19 - 32.02%) -- possible 4HKO

    -1 252 Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 170-202 (51.35 - 61.02%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 256-302 (77.34 - 91.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Meanwhile...

    252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 178-210 (59.13 - 69.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    In other words, Gyarados completely laughs at every attack except for Stone Edge and can threaten an immediate gyaranteed 2HK0, even without Stealth Rock support.

    Mamoswine:
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 160-188 (48.33 - 56.79%) -- 43.36% chance to 2HKO

    252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 336-396 (93.07 - 109.69%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

    Meaning that Gyarados can switch in to any attack that Mamoswine throws at it, survive with around 25% health even after Stealth Rock damage, and possibly KO with Waterfall. Waterfall is also an outright KO after Life Orb damage! It can also switch into Earthquake or Ice Shard (or Stealth Rock) without worry. In fact, Gyarados likely won't even need to worry about Stealth Rock, as it can switch INTO the move, avoid it, and threaten Mamoswine with Waterfall or Substitute / Toxic on the switch. Did I mention that Team 1 doesn't have anything to switch into Toxic besides Heracross, who won't want to risk switching into Gyarados anyway?

    Also, food for thought:

    252+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 374-444 (103.6 - 122.99%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    If enough people like the guaranteed OHKO on Mamoswine with Aqua Tail over Waterfall, I'm definitely fine to try it. The extra power is pretty awesome here.

    Kyurem-B:
    -1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 84-99 (25.37 - 29.9%) -- possible 4HKO
    0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 8 Def Gyarados: 124-147 (37.46 - 44.41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 218-258 (48.01 - 56.82%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. +1 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 146-174 (32.15 - 38.32%) -- 97.75% chance to 3HKO

    Even after Kyurem-B uses Bulk Up (+1 to defense, +0 to attack due to Intimidate), Gyarados beats it one on one and can still break its substitute. It also out-speeds Kyurem-B, meaning that it can't PP stall with Roost and Substitute. More importantly, a swift Toxic from Gyarados will end any sweeping Kyurem-B can hope to achieve. Kyurem-B also can't switch in, risking a near 90% probable 2HK0. Worst case scenario, we still have Heatran. And Gyarados isn't dead weight when we need to break its substitute.

    Landorus
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 153-181 (46.22 - 54.68%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 153-181 (46.22 - 54.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 91-108 (27.49 - 32.62%) -- possible 4HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 91-108 (27.49 - 32.62%) -- 99.32% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Gyarados can switch in on Rock Polish or Earth Power, taking no damage. It can also take Stealth Rock, Hidden Power Ice, AND a Psychic, and still potentially survive even with maximum damage after Leftovers recovery. More importantly...

    252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 306-362 (91.34 - 108.05%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

    Gyaranteed OHKO after Landorus takes Life Orb damage only once. Or, again, if we wish to secure the OHKO 100% of the time...

    252+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 344-408 (102.68 - 121.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    So, Gyarados does not completely counter Landorus, but it can survive a Psychic and pretty much OHKO back one way or the other. Also, should Gyarados be behind a Substitute on a switch, it's pretty much sealed. Even if Landorus switches in on Stone Edge...

    252+ Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 127-150 (37.91 - 44.77%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    It still takes more damage than it'd like to. Landorus shouldn't be switching into Gyarados, anyway.

    And finally... while Rotom-W's Volt Switch destroys Gyarados, we can still Substitute before it or Toxic it on the switch. Gyarados forces out Mamoswine and Heracross, two Pokemon that Team 2 currently fears, and can Substitute on the switch to Rotom-W whenever it wants.

    Gyarados allows Team 2 to maintain offensive momentum and is only straight-up walled by one of Team 1's Pokemon, who absolutely DESPISES Toxic, while simultaneously acting as a fantastic counter to Heracross and Mamoswine. It also out-speeds and puts an end to Kyurem-B, and can survive even the strongest hit from Landorus in a pinch during an attempted sweep and OHKO back after a single round of Life Orb damage.

    Finally, I'd like to discuss Stealth Rock and why I feel that the strengths of Gyarados outweigh the need for Stealth Rock. Simply put, the reasons that we'd want to have Stealth Rock--wear down Kyurem-B and Rotom-W, punish the multiple switches Keldeo, Hydreigon, and Scizor force, etc.--are accomplished with our team as currently constructed. Toxic kills any hopes Kyurem-B or Rotom-W have of accomplishing anything, whether or not they switch out. And the biggest reason to fear NOT using Stealth Rock is "what if Team 1 picks Volcarana or Dragonite?" Well, Gyarados absolutely, 100% of the time, destroys Volcarana unless it's using Hidden Power Electric, as it can survive any hits and swiftly OHKO with Stone Edge. It can switch in to Fiery Dance and Bug Buzz and take laughable damage. Meanwhile, Dragonite cannot risk Outraging against our team with Heatran and Scizor, nor does it appreciate Intimidate. Stone Edge can take a huge chunk away from Dragonite as well, Celebi can T-Wave it, Gyarados can Toxic it, Hydreigon can out-speed and KO it... we simply don't need to constrain ourselves to ABSOLUTELY using Stealth Rock, simply because most of the good Stealth Rock users do NOT fit out team as well as Gyarados does. I wish we had chosen Stealth Rock sooner, but I'd rather not have it at all and continue to put enormous pressure on Team 1 rather than pick a SR user who will likely end up dead weight on our team. So...

    Gyarados for Team 2!!

    Feel free to comment on Waterfall vs. Aqua Tail, as Aqua Tail secures OHKOs on both Mamoswine and Landorus, while Waterfall requires that they both take a round of Life Orb damage.
  18. Melee Mewtwo

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    252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 124-147 (38.99 - 46.22%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    This means he traps and counters their win condition, counters the gyarados counter, and Team 2 has no SR while Team 1 does.

    Magnezone is the reason why we can't find a Mamo/Hera counter othewise we would just pick Zong or Skarm and call it a day.
  19. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    You don't get it, what you say doesn't work, you lost the game here.

    I do Quiver Dance as you switch to Keldeo, then
    you :
    252SpAtk Keldeo (Neutral) Hydro Pump vs 4HP/0SpDef +1 Volcarona (Neutral): 80% - 94% (252 - 296 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    me :
    252SpAtk +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Giga Drain vs 4HP/0SpDef Keldeo (Neutral): 93% - 110% (304 - 358 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 62% chance to OHKO.

    You do this mistake and it's over, I didn't even put LO here.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

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    If no Giga Drain than Scizor wins one on one since you don't have a Fire attack.

    Calcs (open)
    +1 252+ SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 88 HP / 168 SpD Scizor: 128-151 (42.24 - 49.83%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    +2 252+ SpA Volcarona Hidden Power Ground vs. 88 HP / 168 SpD Scizor: 171-202 (56.43 - 66.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 229-270 (73.63 - 86.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 153-180 (49.19 - 57.87%) -- 61.33% chance to 2HKO
    Scizor can switch in and set up a SD to take a massive chunk with Bug Bite the following turn and then pick it off with Bullet Punch. We may lose Scizor to burn but that isn't sure and you lose Volcarona in the process.
  21. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    It's very easy to throw on Earthquake instead of Stone Edge if you're worried about Magnezone, but it's not like Magnezone can switch in to Gyarados forever, even with Waterfall. Aqua Tail also boosts up that damage, should we decide to go for that. A guaranteed 3HKO is pretty damned good if they end up relying on the sucker with only Leftovers to recover. Actually, better yet... I don't see how you can call Magnezone a counter to Gyarados at all. Gyarados out-speeds it, can OHKO it if we choose Earthquake (sure, it can use Air Balloon, but then it doesn't even have Leftovers recovery), and even without it, Waterfall is a clean 3HKO. That means that if Magnezone takes any damage at all and switches into Gyarados' substitute, Gyarados has 2 free Waterfalls to use against it, likely KO'ing it if it's taken even 15% damage or so. And just food for thought...

    252+ Atk Gyarados Aqua Tail vs. 148 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 139-165 (43.71 - 51.88%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    We can even opt for Aqua Tail just to put more pressure. Magnezone can't switch into Gyarados forever, and it's not like Gyarados has any problem switching out if threatened. It'll regain half of its substitute in the process, too with Leftovers recovery.
  22. Melee Mewtwo

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    The same can be said for the SR weak Gyarados that eats up his own HP with substitute while losing an extra quarter of its HP coming in on Heracross (rounded but you get my point). That calc was also just me picking the SpecsZone set. We can very easily pick a physically bulky set as it'll still tank everything Scizor tries to throw at it while roasting with HP Fire. If we go for EQ over SE then Cube can easily come in and force it out with a DTail to take out half its HP. (factoring in SR)
  23. Reymedy

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    You assume that I'm dumb enough to switch my Volcarona on a +2 Scizor, that won't happen.

    And, I told about it in my previous posts, there are many other ways to force Scizor out if he gets +2, which won't happen. I don't see how Scizor gets this +2. Remember that Bullet Punch is FAR from OHKOing Mamoswine. Meaning that Scizor will NEVER be peacefully sweeping at +2 full life. And even if it's the case, Landorus, Heracross will force him out. And considering that it will be your only (shaky) answer to Volcarona, will you let him get those damages ? I don't think so. And myself, I will never let you set-up, even if I have to sacrifice my 5 other pokemons, I will do it to kill all the opposing team with Volcarona.

    Basically, your winning condition is complicated, mine is :
    - have +1 with Volcarona
    OR
    - have Scizor not at +2 and around 60 %

    Because, reverse the assumptions, I'm +1 Volcarona, it's over, simply. And I see many occasion to get this boost.

    And I could also go Fire Attack / Giga Drain / Bug Buzz. Or drop Bug Buzz for something else.
    Heatran can only Roar, takes damages from SR and lacks recovery bar Leftovers. Moreover, every single pokemon bar Kyurem-B can damage him heavily.
    Hydreigon can only Dragon Meteor, and it does not do enough when Volcarona is at +2 (basically it will be the case, because you switch Hydreigon as I Quiver, then I Quiver again). And once Volcarona is at +3 and Hydreigon at -2 it's hopeless.

    To be honest, it will depend on what will be picked, and what will be a threat. But if the only thing to stop Volcarona is to force the player to switch this pokemon on a +2 Scizor, well, I believe that it's a weak answer.
  24. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    It's true, but we've already established that Gyarados makes an excellent switch-in to a Mamoswine trying to actually set Stealth Rock in the first place. Gyarados is going to do a lot of damage before it actually takes the 25%. Even in that first switch-in, it forces Mamoswine out and forces Team 1 to either take huge damage to Heracross or Kyurem-B or get Rotom-W or Kyurem-B poisoned. Either way, it will have already tipped the scales big time. Even if they pick Magnezone and switch it in here, that means it's already looking at a good 40% of its life taken off.

    Aside from Scizor, I'm just not buying that Magnezone is a huge threat to Team 2. Keldeo destroys it. Hydreigon destroys it. Heatran destroys it. Celebi doesn't take much from its attacks and can T-Wave it just for the lulz. Magnezone's sole purpose is for Scizor... and honestly, I hate this term of "win condition." Scizor may pose a sweep, but losing our "win condition" doesn't mean we lose the battle. And Gyarados is one of the best partners to Heatran and Celebi there is while simultaneously acting as a terrific counter to Mamoswine and Heracross. And unlike Skarmory or Bronzong, it can do something important other than wall and can inflict a ton of damage or cripple every single Pokemon on Team 1.
  25. Melee Mewtwo

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    Nope, I was saying that without a Fire STAB Scizor can switch in and KO Volcarona. (Which is true check out my calcs)

    If Gyarados doesn't have EQ it's counter by Magnezone. (which is the only why we complain about not having a Mamo/Hera counter) If it does have EQ then it loses 25% min switching in something like Hera, another 25% from SR and then Kyurem comes and Dtails for another 25%. That's about 75% HP lost just forcing out Mamo and Toxicing Cube (unless he was already Paralyzed by Celebii) which means he can't switch in again due to SR. (He'll probably have a bit over 25% left thanks to Leftovers but then he loses that bit switching in on a attack)

    We don't need HP Fire on Zone to beat Scizor so we can add Signal Beam in its place. This means nothing can switch into his attacks. (Keldeo/Heatran don't like the base 125 Volt Switch/TBolt, Celebii hates Signal Beam and the same for Hydreigon who is also unhappy about Flash Cannon)

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