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Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    Even still, with the Rash nature, it's still not getting taken down any time soon and rips through Team 2 like butter. Even moreso than Starmie, and isn't screwed by Stealth Rock like Volc.
  2. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    alexwolf, the rule you are talking about was enforced in the first CtP, which was actually completely different from the one we're running now. If you think about the last thread and my Deo-D, it's arguably nonviable in an OU environment too: EVs tailored to outspeed / kill the opposing team, and the same can be said for item choice and moveset. I won't exclude sets tailored to beat specific threats in Team 2, however we can discuss about a ruleset change for the next edition of the CtP. However I think this is a part of the advantage Team 1 has as "last picker": no other set was tailored to this point, and thus the main goal should be to fix this "flaw" in the process (the unfair advantage Team 1 has) and not to disallow specific EV spreads.
  3. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    If you don't let people build specific sets, with nichee EVs that would never be used in OU, you basically kill the purpose of this project.
    It's because people against you can create a totally new set, with odd coverage, weird EVs etc... that it's so interesting : you push the game and the building to a whole new level because there is no limit to the way you can adapt your sets. You don't need to only deal with the on site builds but also with every virtual set.
    Talking about metagame here is not relevant because we're creating another metagame, made of 10 pokemons.
    In this metagame for instance, there is no point running 252 Timid Scarf Latios over 244 Timid Scarf Latios. It would be stupid to pout 252 speed. However, nobody in OU (bar people using HP Fire on the Latios) would give up the 110 speed tier.

    So I don't see the issue, there is no set in this project that is totally crazy. Obviously they been through some changes to adapt themselves to the situation.. but isn't it the point of the project ?
  4. G-Von

    G-Von

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    Now its time for my awfully odd submission!
    [​IMG]
    Sigilyph@Life Orb
    Ability: Magic Guard
    EV's:92 HP/252 SpA/164 Spe
    IV's: 30/2/30/31/30/30
    Nature: Timid
    -Ice Beam
    -Heat Wave
    -HP Ground
    -Psychic

    And there you have it! Sigilyph! I have been a fan of this guy since I first came across him in-game and used him on my somewhat successful VGC team. He was blessed with an ability that totally negates passive damage called Magic Guard. Because of this, he takes no SR damage or LO damage. The EV's and IV's are set to outpacing Hydreigon everytime (Team 2's 2nd fastest pokemon) while maintaining some sort of bulk by throwing the extra EV's into HP. Seeing how Team 2 has 3 pokemon weak to fire, this left their team open to get dismantled by a single Pokemon. Here are some calcs:

    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 177-211 (43.81 - 52.22%) -- 77.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 322-382 (96.4 - 114.37%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR)

    Scizor gets melted, so there is no point posting the calc. As for Ice Beam:

    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 155-182 (46.4 - 54.49%) -- 57.81% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO after SR)
    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 169-200 (41.83 - 49.5%) -- 28.91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 250-296 (76.68 - 90.79%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    While Ice Beam is only neutral on Skarmory, it will still 2HKO after SR. Celebi will most likely survive, but if it switches into it, Celebi will not be enjoying it either. The move is here mostly for Hydreigon since it has a minor chance to OHKO after SR. HP ground and STAB Psychic are here for Heatran and Keldeo, respectively:

    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 322-385 (99.69 - 119.19%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 354-421 (109.25 - 129.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Taken care of without any worries. Heatran has an extremely minor chance at living if at full health, but c'mon...we all know it's fate with or without SR. Anyway, thank you for reading my submission. I honestly do not see anyone taking this selection serious, even though it would work fine, but I do hope this makes people think of using Sigi on their team in the future :]
  5. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Starmie: My problem with Starmie is that it is just way too easy to wear away. LO recoil + hazards (it may free them for friends but it still takes the hit) will very easily put it in the ~50% range for Scizor to pull off a clean sweep. Yes it can 2HKO any switch-in, however, Celebi has no problem walling as long as it doesn't waltz in on a Ice Beam.

    Magnezone: Shed Shell Skarm still escapes his clutches, Scizor still hits too hard for it to set up properly and Hydreigon can abuse his resists and roast it with Fire Blast.

    Volcarona: The thing is it can't sweep as soon as SR hits the field. This is pretty hard to prevent as Skarm walls 4/6 of the opposing team and has Sturdy if nothing else. Even if you do get a setup shot without SR, Team 2 just has to hit you while you boost to make sure you are in OHKO range for the Hydro Pump. Worst case scenario: Volca is healthy and at +1, Team 2 can just abuse Sturdy Skarm to phaze him out or throw two mons (or do some smart switching) so that Volca has the 20-30% to be OHKO'd by Hydro Pump. Volcarona is just going to be demanding way too much fancy playing to get it to sweep the opposing team. Can it take a mon or two down with it? Probably, but then there is nothing from Scizor setting up and sweeping.

    Sigilyph: Pretty cool pick however it takes a truckload from Keldeo and can't break past Celebi once he is in safely (like Starmie). If he could wall Scizor this wouldn't really be a problem but since he doesn't he's just going to 6-0 Team 1.

    Raikou: I was thinking of posting a niche Zapdos set (Agility, Roost, Tbolt, Signal Beam) but Raikou does its job better as it hits harder thanks to Aura Sphere coverage while tanking Hydro Pump better. For these reasons I feel Raikou is the best pick ATM. The way things are looking whether or not he pulls of his sweep is going to make or break the game. (I guess this is kinda risky so if anybody likes Zapdos being able to wall Scizor til the time is right to sweep feel free to post the set.)

    You are misunderstanding what was being criticized, (or we failed to properly explain ourselves. Either way there was a miscommunication and I hope to clear it up) it wasn't a matter of being defensive or not as it was being able to execute the main idea behind this project; counter the opposing team while being as hard to counter as possible. For example, one of the early defensive mons suggested was Jellicent. Although he was very capable of countering the current two picks (Keldeo and Heatran) he lacked any significant sort of offensive pressure and was thus passed in favor of the Rotom-W who was more difficult to counter pick. The recent example of Infernape (I'm assuming this is who you were referring, too) was an good example of a Pokemon that is hard to counter but because of his inability to counter the other team's recent picks he was passed in favor of one who could. (while remaining difficult to counter due to the offensive support provided by hazards)

    For reference, I explained my personal feelings concerning defensive vs offensive picks earlier when discussing Celebi with Ganj4lf. (you will have to scroll down a bit)
  6. Homeslice

    Homeslice

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    Shed Shell is a one time use. If the player doesn't know how to trap Skarmory twice, him/herself probably doesn't know how to use trapping Pokemon very effectively.
    The Scizor used in team 2 has max attack EV's along with an Adamant nature. A +2 Bug Bite (Scizor's most effective move against Magnezone) is a 3HKO, but has a chance of 2HKO after rocks. HP Fire is a guaranteed OHKO no matter what, unless for some reason Magnezone's Sp Atk dropped. Substitute isn't needed, as there's no statuses to block.
    I mentioned the weakness to Hydreigon, however Magnezone's purpose to make the sweep for Kyurem-B easier- not try and sweep the whole team. Hydreigon shouldn't be a problem in that regard- there's no reason Kyurem wouldn't be behind a substitute taking on Hydreigon besides Kyurem being the last pokemon left.
  7. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Shed Shell is NOT an one time use item.
  8. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    I think that you need to explain stuff Mewtwo. What I find sad is that you take a statement like "pokemon with few offensive pressure is easy to counter" as granted. I think that you're the one missing my point.

    I, claim the exact opposite, and I explained why. I see nothing in what you wrote that come close to call into question my logic.
    I will not also consider your arguments as good just before you take the votes to valid them. It's not because people didn't vote for pokemon with less offensive pressure in the start that it was the right thing to do.
    In fact, just by watching the teams I can claim that it's the contrary.

    You know why ? Because you can NOT put an offensive pressure on pokemons that haven't been picked yet.
    However, you CAN bring utility on almost anything.

    This, is my point. Bring UTILITY first, not blind coverage.

    And I'm happy that you talk about Keldeo, the Rotom-W pick put the team 1 in a crappy situation. Just look at it, Keldeo is a pokemon with an easily countered coverage, and he can still 2HKO everybody on the opposite team with SR. That's a huge nonsense in my opinion, a massiv fail in the nominations. And you talk about Jellicent, this is funny, why don't you talk about Slowbro, he was the one bringing the TWave in the first place, and he walls Keldeo for days and put more offensive pressure (with even a reliable recovery move) since he can 0HKO Keldeo.

    Let's keep looking at the nominations. I don't get why Keldeo has been chosen in the first place. I looked back at the explanations and this is :
    - We need a water mon
    - Keldeo puts offensive pressure
    (- Counters can be trapped by Gothitelle => I don't see how people accepted this argument since almost everything can be trapped, and anyway the statement isn't even true)

    So wow, take a Scarf after 1 nomination, show all the coverage (and he will be locked in), let 5 picks to the enemy team to react to the key pokemon of our team.
    Anyway, if I had to be sad about one thing in this project it would be this first pick. I don't get the logic of this Kyurem-B decision.

    Now about Volcarona, your idea is to :
    - Delay the sweep with a Sturdy Volcarona, you're a brave player I must say. I never built a team thinking "it's okay for Volcarona, I got my Skamory to beat it !" haha. So now, SR are up, and you got Shed Shell remember, and you're supposed to "wall 4/6 of the team" remember... so yes, I'm ready to bet that this Sturdy will not be ready when you'll need it.
    And let's say it is, how is Skarmory supposed to wall "4/6" of the team, when it dies to a Fire Blast ? Now Mamoswine and Heracross are free, Volcarona did his job and is still alive, ready to OHKO 2 pokemons without fearing anything from them, and denting badly the other ones freely (bar Keldeo, but if you want to play around with your scarfer, it's up to you, you will just lose the momentum).

    - "Play around with switches" yes, of course, and we know that one Quiver Dance and it's over, so if you bring the "smart switches argument", I call the "smart Quiver Dance on your switch" one. You hit me when I boost ? With what ? a Hydreigon that will see his SpA fall ? A walled Scizor ? A 0 attack Skarmory ? A Heatran only able to Roar ?
    Nah, you can only Whirwind me, crossing your finger so I don't kill OHKO you first with Fire Blast.
    Be realistic, even if I can't sweep the whole team with Volcarona, I still outspeed your 5/6 of the team, and OHKO a half. Why would I even bother when I can force you to switch your Scarfer in each time I switch my Volcarona in. Moreover, you forget that with Volcarona's threat, you cannot use Hydreigon's Draco Meteor or you'll be punished, same goes for Scizor and Keldeo's move bar his Water stab.

    It can't sweep when SR are up, I think that's it's one again a shortcut that you use, because let's say I lead with Volcarona, what can you do ? You do some "smart switches" etc ?
    I get a pretty nice turn 1 match-up from my point of view.
    At best you do a smart switch to Keldeo and get locked in the following turn. And then, I'll keep the pressure on, making you understand that if you put those SR, you'll lose your main pokemon supposed to wall "4/5" of my team and I'll still have 3 Volcarona's switches left.


    On another topic Raikou is a really good pick. But it's the same, I use my Sturdy Skarmory to check you, you won't sweep anytime soon ! :naughty:
    (Celebi can survive and TWave it though)
  9. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Responses in bold
  10. Lyconik

    Lyconik

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    Here's my choice for the last slot on team 1 :

    [​IMG]
    Infernape @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Iron Fist
    EVs: 176 Spd / 252 Atk / 80 HP
    Naughty Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Flamethrower
    - U-turn
    - Mach Punch


    Let me explain this set :
    Infernape wreck ALL the team 2. He outspeed and OKHO with the proper move 5/6 of the team 2.
    The Ev seems weird, but with 176 spd you reach 296 speed, and it's enough to outspeed everything bar scarf keldeo.
    Max atk is obvious, since you have just to spam Close Combat most of the time.
    The 80 ev remaining go in Hp.
    The naughty nature is prefered to lonely nature so you take less damage from bullet punch.
    Here's the damage you can do with infernape against team 2 :
    Show Hide
    252 Atk Expert Belt Infernape Close Combat vs 4 HP/0 Def Heatran: 129,94% - 153,09%
    252 Atk Expert Belt Infernape U-turn vs 252 HP/0 Def Celebi: 85,4% - 100,99% (you need a little bit of damage, like a volt switch from rotom-w)
    252 Atk Expert Belt Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Hydreigon: 149,54% - 176%
    0 SpAtk Expert Belt Infernape Flamethrower vs 88 HP/0 SpDef Scizor: 201,98% - 239,93%
    0 SpAtk Expert Belt Infernape Flamethrower vs 248 HP/8 SpDef Skarmory: 101,5% - 119,82%


    Now, the keldeo's case :
    252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/4 Def Keldeo: 62,23% - 73,37%
    252 Atk Infernape Mach Punch vs 0 HP/4 Def Keldeo: 25,08% - 29,72%

    Yeah, once infernape come on the field, something on the team 2 is going to die, since keldeo can't switch on it fearing close combat + mach punch.

    Expert Belt > Life orb so the opponent can't use smart switch to take down infernape, and you don't miss important OKHO.
    Infernape is difficult to bring back on the field, but volt switch from rotom-w and double switch can help this.
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Infernape has my vote, this thing will wreck Team 2. Not only does it counter Scizor but it sweeps the team without any need to predict a setup move and is very difficult to wear away with passive damage.
  12. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    It's pretty interesting how a poke like Infernape, which is widely regarded as mediocre for common OU play, keeps popping out in CtP and is usually able to OHKO the vast majority of the enemy team. I'm a fan of the flaming monkey even in OU, but whatever, I just found that quite interesting to be honest. Fire + Fighting mixed coverage just tends to wreck offensive picks which are much common in this kind of project.
  13. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Well, that and we opted for something with poor coverage as our main sweeper in Team 2. This thing is like Hydreigon is for Team 2 except that it counters the main sweeper of the opposing team.

    Ape in general gets a more hate than it deserves. Although I agree that he's getting more usage than he deserves at the price of other top tier threats, (Deo, Keldeo, Torna-T, ect.) he isn't the absolute crap everybody has been making him out to be lately. He has excellent SE coverage against typical Stall cores while Mach Punch and 108 speed means he's no slouch in cleaning offensive teams either. I suppose the reason he keeps popping up, though, is that everybody tends to overlook him.
  14. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    I agree with Infernape, as especially in a contained environment (this project), with no rain present, Infernape is easily a BIG threat with its wide coverage/good speed/ridiculous utility. The only reason it's hated on somewhat is because it is farily outclassed by Terrakion in the current rain metagame. All in all though, nice choice, Cyredax. :) Is this Team 1's win condition then? Set some hazards + get rid of Keldeo --> Infernape sweep. Seems pretty solid to me.

    So now for me, it's between Infernape, Raikou, and Starmie, who all have decent coverage against Team 2. Raikou can set up with Calm Mind, Infernape has Mach Punch + U-Turn, and Starmie can beat Keldeo (I think), but has trouble with Celebi. I'm a moron, so... who hits the hardest?
  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    There's calcs in each submission post and Ape is the most dangerous by miles.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    This is why the current system of this project is deeply flawed. This Infernape set just wrecks Team 2 and nothing can be done about it. This shouldn't really happen. The community worked hard and went through all this effort only for Team 1 to get the best of Team 2 with the usual way. Someone must come with a new rule that balances stuff out or else more and more people will lose interest in this project, as if Team 1 is going to win anyway, the whole thing looks pointless.
  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    I feel this was more our fault when we were making Team 2's final picks. Team 2 has a direct effect on what is a viable pick for the last slot of Team 1, we should have looked a bit more into what could have countered us and chosen accordingly.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Yeah but no matter how good team 2 is built, team 1 will alway be able to find a huge weakness as the possibilities are endless, especially because there is no rule for bs sets, and so everyone can post whatever the fuck he wants. Every team has big weaknesses and allowing Team 1 to capitalize on that is just unfair.
  19. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

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    The Infernape set seems like it will wreck team two. Seems like ths will end like last time. :(

    I was really hoping for team two to win this time.
  20. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Well... if there was a restriction, specifically on Team 1's final pick, that it had to be the standard/most popular set (the first in the analysis) for a given pokemon, would that make any difference? And then if that's not enough, perhaps limit the pool of viable picks, again, on Team 1's final pick, to only from the OU tier. This eliminates any chance for a BS set while still allowing freedom/creativity to an extent. Would this work?
  21. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    Both Infernape and Raikou pretty much demolish Team 2, now. The only hope that Team 2 has against either is that Keldeo revenges. For this reason, though, I still think that Raikou is a slightly better pick, as Hydro Pump will kill Infernape should the two have to face off, whereas Keldeo cannot OHKO Raikou and gets OHKO'd in return. Additionally, Team 2 can sack a Pokemon like Heatran to Close Combat so that Infernape wears down its defenses so that Scizor can pick it off with Bullet Punch in an absolute pinch.

    Otherwise, the two are easily the biggest threats to Team 2 and completely destroy it.

    Also, I really feel like Skarmory was a poor choice for Team 2, and I'm sad that it was picked. Please, understand--Stealth Rock is not a necessity on every team! Sometimes, it just doesn't belong.

    One more thing that Team 2 can do in a pinch is bring Skarmory in if Stealth Rock is not up, absorb the Flamethrower with Sturdy, and OHKO with Brave Bird. Another reason, I suppose, that Raikou might be overall a little stronger, as it doesn't much care if Skarmory survives and whirlwinds it away or attacks it, as it can just switch it again later and survives with plenty of HP to spare.
  22. lokt

    lokt

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    [​IMG]
    Keldeo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 176 Spd / 252 SAtk / 80 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Surf
    - Secret Sword
    - Hidden Power [Bug]
    - Calm Mind
    It's pretty obvious what this set does. After one cm, team 2 is cleanly swept. Keldeo can also outspeed and OHKO every member of team 1 after SR except for the opposing celebi and keldeo. Keldeo has set up opportunities on heatran, scizor, and skarmory.
    calcs:

    252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 484-569 (148.46 - 174.53%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 322-380 (79.7 - 94.05%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 416-494 (128.79 - 152.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Surf vs. 88 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 263-309 (86.79 - 101.98%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 296-348 (88.62 - 104.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252+ SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 324-382 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 153-180 (44.6 - 52.47%) -- 21.88% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  23. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

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    I agree with futuresuperstar that Skarmory was not that great a pick, but for different reasons.

    The Skarm set had to be customized to run from Zone, hence its Shed Shell. Why did Skarm have to run from Zone? Because of Scizor, which had no way whatsoever of dealing with Zone (no U-turn or Superpower. No offense to Novaray, who submitted the set). Magnezone also happened to be a counter to Skarm and Bronzong. We needed Skarm or Bronzong to deal with Heracross and Mamoswine, which was our first priority IMO. However, since the last submission phase was for team two's last mon, we couldn't pick both Skarm/Zong and a counter to Magnezone at the same time, since the potential counter's slot was occupied by Scizor.
  24. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    I kind of was too as that'd have evened the scores out a bit. No offence novray but I think it was the scizor pick that made it difficult. Rocks, can run from skarm, counter heracross and Mamoswine. Remedy probably had the best pick in gliscor then but I didn't see that at the time :/. I kinda fell bad as I voted against key members in team 2 like melee mewtwo's hydriegon as if that pick had have gone to who I wanted its gg.
    I like this project as it's made me a better team builder so can we have another one soon as I want to be in that from the start. This has been really fun and I feel I now know what can make team 2 better and maybe, who knows team 2 will win next time but really ATM it's hard to see team 2 to beat most of the Pokemon that have been suggested.
  25. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo I am hungry
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    Not really, if we had picked Gliscor or Terrakion their instant offensive threat and wide coverage would mean Team 1 would have very specific counters they could pick. The problem this round was that we opted for Scizor who has poor coverage and relys on Bullet Punch so there are a plethora of things that can check/counter it. (like this new Keldeo that I'm not sure who to vote for now) This opened up Team 1 to be able to pick a bunch of niche sweeper sets instead of having to grab a Gengar, Skarm, Hippo, etc.

    Oh and SR is doubly important in this project as I explained earlier. The battle between the two teams is gong to be a major switch fest.

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