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Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    DarkBlazeR's tailwind hydreigon

    I like the concept of Tailwind. I've been using that particular Hydreigon on PS! and have had decent success with it, and I want to see what the community thinks about creating a team / countering it.
  2. blunder

    blunder

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    DarkBlazeR's Tailwing Hydreigon
  3. TerrickTerran

    TerrickTerran

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  4. KRageToo

    KRageToo

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    DarkBlazeR's Tailwind Hydreigon

    I haven't seen Hydreigon for quite a long time and it's a great pokemon. I'd definitely like to see Tailwind in action.
  5. HackerKing

    HackerKing

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    RedRascal's Landorus (the RP one).
  6. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off

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    Ginganinja's Mixmence

    Hard to go wrong with Mixmence as a first move.
  7. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Ginganinja's Mixmence

    I would note how restrictive Moxie MixMence will be on Team #1's building. Having a Rapid Spinner will be necessary. However, our inclusion of a spinner will force the team a. to carry a ghost type or b. carry moves that will take the spinner down. With that in mind our team should build accordinigly. In addition our team will need a strong pivot (think rotom-w, scizor, tornadus-t) in order to get Salamence in unharmed. That way it can spam its powerful attacks for even longer
  8. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    pocket's cube
  9. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Okay, voting is now closed! I'm kinda sad that only one or two people got the correct format to vote right, but that's not a big deal. Please, the next time, use only the name of the user to express your vote, as I said when the vote was opened. Multipe, different formats just make easier for me to count wrong in the tally and are generally an unwanted source of errors. Thanks.

    This is the tally (not reporting entries with zero votes):

    So, we have the first pokemon of our Team 1!

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Pocket's Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 56 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - Substitute
    - Hone Claws
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roost

    Now the meaty discussion starts. We'll going to pick Team 2's first pokemon, that should fare well against that Cube set, but also avoid being too prone to possible counter-picks by Team 1. Please submit only one set, including all those things that are listed in the OP. Also, check the first post since the slashes rule has been slightly altered to be more restrictive and clear.

    Discussion and set submissions will be opened for at least 48 hours from now.
  10. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Well well, I see some Scizor incoming so...


    [​IMG]
    Cobalion @ Leftovers
    56 HP / 28 Atk / 172 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Substitute
    - Close Combat
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Volt-Switch

    EDIT : Changed the set.
  11. Eranu

    Eranu

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    I'm going to suggest this Scizor set:

    [​IMG]
    Scizor (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Roost
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Swords Dance

    This set has the ability to Roost of +5 Dragon tail damage. Bullet Punch easily breaks a Substitute and if you get a Swords Dance up it can OHKO Kyurem. As is said, Kyurem-B can't do much in return seeing how +6 Dragon Tail does 67% max, allowing Scizor to never get OHKO'd and therefore always beat Kyurem-B with Bullet Punch (unless Kyurem-B is at 75% or higher behind a sub which is very unlikely). I put U-turn as the second attacking move since team one is extremely likely to go with Magnezone/Magneton. This way Scizor can just U-turn out if a Magnezone/ton switch is obvious or escape from every Magne set lacking Hidden Power [Fire].
  12. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    If you're going to use Scizor as a set-up mon, U-turn makes little to no sense. Bug Bite becomes a 90 BP STAB after technician. U-turning gives up your boosts and it's highly improbable Scizor will be able to sweep with Bullet Punch alone.
  13. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    It's very nice way to stop the cube.However I don't think Salac Berry is a good item on it.Unlike Terrakion ,Cobalion has a shabby 90 attack stat on top of not getting STAB stone edge.So I think Cobalion cannot pull of a sweep well,especially when you have to lower you're hp and salac berry being a one time use item.So I think leftovers would be a better fit for more durability and allow Coba to make more Subs.

    Also,about Scizor,i agree with CSC for going with Bug Bite.If Mag is a concern than Shed Shell will be a good item instead of lefties.I don't think losing lefties going to be a big issue since Scizor has reliable recovery in Roost.
  14. Eranu

    Eranu

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    I would normally use Bug Bite but the idea of this project is also anticipating what your opponent's team will likely carry, which in this case is Magnezone/Magneton. With U-turn it also becomes easier to sweep with Bullet Punch. For instance, Jellicent switches in on this set. If you pair this set with Tyranitar and U-turn on the obvious Jellicent switch in, you can easily make a path for Bullet Punch to sweep.
  15. Qwertyuiop

    Qwertyuiop

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    Okay, to counter Kyurem-B, I'd like to propose SubCM Jirachi

    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunderbolt / Thunder
    - Flash Cannon

    Jirachi can come in against Kyurem-B, set up a sub and boost pretty much all the time because it outspeeds the latter and does not have its sub broken unless Kyurem is at +2. After one or two CM boosts, Jirachi will always 2HKO Kyurem-B, while taking less than 50% damage from even +4 Dragon Tail. Jirachi in itself is an excellent Pokemon to have in general; it gives Team 2 a steel type (which is always good to have) and something which can set up on a lot of special attackers. After few CM boosts, Jirachi hits very hard and is difficult to take down as well. Flash Cannon is chosen as it is a STAB without immunities and Thunderbolt provides good coverage in general. Thunder is even better, having a 60% paralysis chance, but needs Rain to be successfully used. Magnezone does wall Rachi, but Specs Thunder doesn't even 2HKO at +2, so Rachi has some chance of beating it, though it will end up at very low health after the encounter.

    Calcs (open)

    0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 51-61 (12.62 - 15.09%) -- 9HKO at best
    +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 77-91 (19.05 - 22.52%) -- possible 6HKO
    +2 0 SpA Jirachi Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Kyurem-B: 296-350 (65.19 - 77.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Jirachi Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Kyurem-B: 150-176 (33.03 - 38.76%) -- 99.66% chance to 3HKO
  16. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Cobalion, even with less Atk hits decently, and Salac help with killing pokemons faster, so it's far harder to counter something that can decide on either having a *2 Atk or a +1 speed.
    By the way, I don't why the fact that Cobalion doesn't hit hard enough could justify the use of Leftovers. I don't get the logic.

    Moreover, in comparison with Scizor and Jirachi, the coverage with two moves is perfect.

    Jirachi is a horrible choice, especially with Tbolt Flash Canon because it's really easy to wall it, Scizor is also pretty easy to wall with Bug and Steel coverage. At least Cobalion set-up and can't be so easily stopped by an Heatran or a Thundurus. This Jirachi is screaming "Thundurus-T set-up please" and when we know how terrible an Aglity or Nasty Plot Thundurus can be :\

    The only way to play Scizor here is a 3 Atk set or a CB, and pairs the CB with a team who has enough pokemon that can hurt a Kyurem-b (which isn't hard..).
  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    As a dragon type with only Dtail as it's attacking option, steel types are definitely the first to come to mind.

    As far as stuff that can set up a sweep on it via subsititue, there is Bisharp, Empoleon, and Jirachi.

    Empoleon can set up a Substitute on a +0 Dtail but a +1 will always break its substitutes. Plus Empoleon can't do much back so it's not the ideal option.
    Calcs Empoleon (open)

    0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 12 HP / 4 Def Empoleon: 57-67 (18.26 - 21.47%) -- possible 5HKO

    +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 12 HP / 4 Def Empoleon: 85-101 (27.24 - 32.37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO


    Bisharp is a similar boat being able to set up on a +0 Dtail but only having a 43.75% chance to keep its Sub up against a +1 Dtail. It does threaten Kyurem much more than Empoleon but is a somewhat inefficient set in general.
    Calcs Bisharp (open)
    0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 51-60 (15.26 - 17.96%) -- possible 6HKO

    +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 76-90 (22.75 - 26.94%) -- possible 4HKO


    Jirachi has the infamous SubCM set and a less popular SubParalysis set. The SubCM set can set up on even a +1 Dtail (but not a +2) so it can switch in on a Hone Claws. Kyurem can only break the SubParalysis Jirachi set 12.5% of the time with a +1 Dtail but the set can easily have a slight EV spread edit to make that drop to never. Both have either Iron Head or Flash Cannon to put pressure on the Kyurem-B.
    Calcs SubCM Jirachi (open)
    0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 51-61 (12.62 - 15.09%) -- 9HKO at best

    +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 77-91 (19.05 - 22.52%) -- possible 6HKO

    +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 77-91 (19.05 - 22.52%) -- possible 6HKO

    Calcs SubPara Jirachi (open)
    0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 51-61 (14.12 - 16.89%) -- 9HKO at best

    +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 77-91 (21.32 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO

    252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 204-242 (44.93 - 53.3%) -- 32.42% chance to 2HKO


    Outside of set up sweepers, there is also Forretress who can take advantage of Kyurem-B to set up Spikes. Physically Defensive can shrug Dtails while threatening with Gyro Ball and setting up Spikes so a faster Phazer can come in later can shuffle out the boosts. The new Custap Berry lets it fit into HO teams by becoming a hazards lead that can set up SR+Spikes, so it isn't necessarily forcing us to use a defensive team. Skarm is kinda in the same boat but it is too slow to phaze out (unless we changed the EVs) and implys more a defensive based team.


    Anyways I think my final suggestion is going to be SubCM Jirachi. It is a solid set that is difficult to bring to a halt, especially with Serene Grace. As much as I love Forretress, he isn't something that should be chosen as the first mon and can always can be considered later on if such support looks worthwhile.


    Edit: Nevermind my vote

    SD Scizor isn't a really good idea since DTail will just force out the boosts.
  18. Eranu

    Eranu

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    I see what you mean but you Kyurem-B will never stay in without a Sub making it really easy for Scizor to set up on it if it doesn't, while if it has a sub, Scizor can just break it, get Dragon Tailed out and switch back in while Kyurem-B Subs again. Scizor can continue to do this unless Kyurem is at +6 which is almost impossible since this Scizor set prevents it from setting up.
  19. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    ok,I think I failed to explain properly.The fact that Cobalion can't hit hard means it's going to be very easy to wall for pokemons with high defense,such as Skarmory,Gliscor etc.Also,the opposition is likely to pack priority or pokes with good typing against Cob's coverage or any other method.To sum it up,I'm saying Cobalion's low attack stat makes it easy to stop as a SubSalac Sweeper.Hence,I suggested Leftovers to give it more durability.It also leaves Cobalion's role as a SubSD sweeper intact.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Kyurem really isn't that scared as never takes much more than 50% from an unboosted Buller Punch. In the mean time, Scizor is only switching in on a Roost or Hone Claws as Sub blocks that Bullet Punch and that lack of SR resist means that repeated Dtails will wear down quickly.

    Calcs (open)
    252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 204-240 (44.93 - 52.86%) -- 22.66% chance to 2HKO

    0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 51-61 (18.14 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO

    +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 77-91 (27.4 - 32.38%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
  21. Eranu

    Eranu

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    You forgot Scizor has 252 HP evs. Forcing Kyurem-B to Roost is how Scizor wins vs that set. It's not hard to predict a roost and setting up a Swords Dance on that turn forces Kyurem to switch out and can give you the upperhand since a +2 U-turn will hit everything not called Skarmory/Forretress hard.
  22. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    If this happens, Scizor will keep eating dtail + hazards damage (you can be 100% sure team's 1 is going to be a spike/sr mon, I already have a submission ready and I'm pretty sure others do too c:). Dtail deals around 15% to Scizor, + 12% from SR and anywhere from 12 to 25 from spikes. That's min. 27% health lost for Scizor and 12 to 25% to whatever got tailed in. If Scizor roosts, then Kyu is free to just roost up while it has a sub or shuffle whatever got brought in again.

    Everyone is proposing deffensive mons, so I'll suggest an offensive one!

    [​IMG]
    Haxorus @ Choice Band
    Mold Breaker
    Shiny: Yes
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant
    - Outrage
    - Dual Chop
    - Superpower
    - Earthquake

    Good ol' Bandorus! Dual Chop deals 49-58% damage per hit, so it's guaranteed to break the sub and hit Cube hard. If Cube came into SR and subbed up, then Dual Chop will take it out almost guaranteed. Superpower and EQ take care of steel-types looking to sponge Dual Chops or Outrages (with proper prediction, of course). Outrage is, well, Outrage. With team 1's steel types sufficiently weakened, banded Outrage will plow through the enemy team. This pick forces team 1 to either overload on steel types, or pack Ice Shard / a fast Ice Beam; facts that we can exploit with the second pick, be it 'Zone for steel types or Sub CM Keldeo or similar for ice-locked mons.

    Yes, it has to be shiny. Yellow Haxorus are ugly, sleek black Haxorus are sexy.
  23. Alexander.

    Alexander.
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    I'd suggest this Heatran set:

    [​IMG]
    Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Substitute

    The combination of Will-O-Wisp and Substitute is fantastic (Wil-O-Wisp hits, for example Politoed and Tentacruel who believe that they can without any damage, and W-O-W punishes them very well and Substitute is a very good move for Heatran because it have a lots of changes to put the Substitute thanks to its resistances). Fire Blast is a obvious STAB and Earth Power is here to hit the others Heatran and stuff that resists to Fire Blast. I suggest you to use this set, people.
  24. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    Haxorus is a bad choice imo.Not only it can't switch in on Kyurem-B but also it's easy to revenge kill because of It's 97 base speed,fraility and forced to lock into outrage to be at full potential.Although it has the cool ability to get past Subs,it can't kill it through Sub if it's not weakend enough while the cube can possibly kill in return.All Cube needs is to roost off later.CB Haxorus is also walled by Skarmory if it's at full health.Forretress can also switch in and set hazards or spin away to support Kyurem-B.For the Cube's offenisve checks,CB Terrak with Double kick or even CB Chomp with Dual chop is overall better than Haxorus.(Just an example,not suggesting it or anything).
  25. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Kyurem isn't going to waste it's time Roosting, it'll just D-tail you out.

    Corrected Calcls (open)
    0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 51-61 (14.82 - 17.73%) -- 9HKO at best

    +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 77-91 (22.38 - 26.45%) -- possible 5HKO


    Edit: Ninja'd, well at least I got exact calcs so I'll leave it.

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