Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

[TyranitarAbuser]

I'm sorry, but I don't get why you said that Jellicent was to be avoided. IMO, Jellicent seems like a solid T1 pick, acting as a Spinblocker and checking your Keldeo set as well as Heatran

 

[MMII]

Because it's a defensive pick and that means that Team 2 is taking the momentum and controlling the flow of the game (and eventually the match). Plus, Jellicent is Pursuit weak so it isn't a reliable choice.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

Seeing the SubDD Gyarados nominaton, I feel this has to be said -

Team 1's plan is rather obvious - Shuffler Kyu-B is not a mon you can slap onto a team and have success with (at least from my experience) so T1 will most likely pick 'mons that can help him "shuffle-sweep" a team - be it by phazing, preventing set up or taking its checks out.

Team 2 has to keep this in mind; and thus select mons accordingly. Ideally, the final product should follow these tow rules:

- Make sure every pick has a way of hurting Cube. This is probably the most important one - if a mon gets shuffled in and has to switch out because it can't break Cube's sub, that's a free turn for cube, which isn't good!

- Have a way around hazards. Spinners, bounce, fast taunts and such all will help reducing Cube's potential damage output.

I'm still thinking of a good nomination, so maybe I'll post one tomorrow.

I said this in an earlier post, but I'll say it again (with a quote for emphasis). Though the first part can and will be a little hard to accomplish, I think it's important to have at least one or two things that don't give cube setup opportunities in case Heatran gets phazed out.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

You ninja'd me

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

Because it's a defensive pick and that means that Team 2 is taking the momentum and controlling the flow of the game (and eventually the match). Plus, Jellicent is Pursuit weak so it isn't a reliable choice.

Team 1 has 2 picks in a row however, and can.do something like jelli + terrak / luke to discourage T2 from using pursuit

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

From what I can remember, Pursuit can't KO Jellicent (does about 70% I think) while Jellicent can run Recover. Plus, if, like ClubbingSealCub says and they choose Terrakion or Lucario, hazards will be all the more dangerous.

Plus, the top two Pursuit users I can think of now are Scizor and Tyranitar, to which we can find counters to. I can't remember any other Pursuit user in OU (I'm typing late at night).

 

[RedRascal]

Umm, where did the idea that each of our members has to counter Cube come from?

This was never said. The only thing close to this that ClubbingSealCub mentioned was that each member needs to be able to threaten Kyurem-B and I agree.

You can skip this next bit as it was said before I managed to post...

Fleshed out explanation of the above

If any one of our pokes can't at least break a Sub/Taunt/do something useful then it's free setup for Kyurem-B. With Cube on team 1 it will be immensely tempting to hazzard spam and then go to town. Team 2 needs to reliably at least slow down a Cube sweep. I'm not saying that each member needs Taunt or a faster Roar or whatever but we can't use something that's set up bait. If we do then Team 2 needs to predict the Kyurem-B switch and double switch to a counter/check. Since Team 1 is very likely going to be laying hazzards this will only help Team 1 as each switch will be like Cube phazed something out.

Anyway, I've talked enough on Gyra though I do still like it (as long as it outspeeds Cube) and I do like Latios as a team member. It won't take D-tail well but it's not hazard weak and it has a good shot at crippling a hazard-layer or potentially Cube (though tremendously unlikely since it will Sub when it can).

You can ignore the below if you like as it's excessive and I had too much time to think about it frankly but it brings up (I think) another good reason to use Gyrados.

Excessive theorymoning of Heatran/Gyra scenarios

Having both Heatran and Taunt/Sub Gyrados plays ridiculous mind games with Kyurem-B. There are 3 scenarios if Cube can get in relatively for free:

Scenario 1: Predicts Heatran to come in.

Kyurem-B is a free sub for Heatran so this is the very tempting option for Team 2. The best thing Cube can do is D-tail it out on the switch but this then brings in something else that (assuming we do this right) should be able to threaten/cripple Cube. If Kyurem-B instead Subs or Roosts then Heatran gets a free Sub as Cube switches or fails to break Sub with D-tail.

Scenario 2: Predicts Gyrados to come in.

As long as Kyurem-B just came in (i.e. isn't behind a sub yet as it hasn't had the time to do so) then switching in Gyrados will always get the Intimidate off on Cube (since it happens before the sub). This in no way stops Cube but it is nice and it lets other team members deal with it better since it will be at -1 Atk. The safest move here as well is to D-tail predicting Gyra to come in as it will get SR damage twice (switch in and when it comes back in after being phazed) and some D-tail damage. This, again, leaves Kyurem-B high and dry against whatever gets brought in as it's not behind a sub and it now even has -1 Atk. If Cube doesn't D-tail when Gyrados comes in then Gyra can set up as sub for free (much like the Heatran scenario above) because -1 Atk D-tail fails to (reliably, see my calcs in my earlier post) break Gyra's sub. This means that either Kyurem-B stays in, fails to break the sub with D-tail and risks getting Taunted on the following turn or Gyrados gets a free sub against whatever wants to come in. This bulky Gyrados isn't overly threatening offensively but it also carries Taunt so it can't be phazed out and it can stop set up/hazards from anything slower than it (so basically anything but Deoxys-D, a rather likely Team 1 pick since it can take hits from Heatran and Gyra rather well and proceed to set up).

Scenario 3: Predicts neither to come in as Heatran/Gyra are our main checks to it and thus fairly obvious (so basically Team 1/2 over predicts).

Cube will very likely Sub in this scenario so that it can Roost/D-Tail against whatever comes in to try to check it. Hopefully, team 2's other members can all break Kyurem-B's sub with some move so at best all Cube can do is D-tail the offender out.

The reason that all 3 of the above scenarios are in 2's favor is because in no case does Kyurem-B end up behind a sub. This means that as long as each poke on our team has an attack that can break the sub then the team itself acts as a full stop to Kyurem-B. No prediction required.

There are some things that wall Gyra/Heatran and we'll still have to deal with hazzard laying so there are certainly flaws but we can deal with this I think. Jellicent in particular will be annoying as a mixed wall set will be able to spinblock and handle Gyra/Heatran fairly easily.

P.S. -- There is technically a 4th scenario where Kyurem-B double switches (predicting one of the above scenarios to occur if it stays in) but this is undesireably as this means that Cube takes hazard damage twice without doing anything. Thanks to it's Ice secondary typing it will take half from just SR if it proceeds to switch out (this is also ignoring any spikes we might manage to lay, SR should be a requirement for Team 2 though). This makes it an undesirable option for Kyurem-B but if it instead opts for one of the 3 scenarios I walked through above then it never gets to keep its substitute. Tis a hard life for Team 1s first pick.

P.S.S. -- With scenario 1 and 2 if Team 1 misspredicts the Gyrados or Heatran switch in then Team 2 gets a free poke behind a substitute.

 

[MMII]

Of course you can find counters to them, however you can't stop them from Pursuiting. Plus, you have to run a physically defensive set and predict the Pursuit to avoid to keep your Jellicent alive. (and without SpDef investment it becomes a crummy Spin Blocker) Plus there is also Gothitelle that can make quick work of Jellicent as well. In any case, the point was that you add a passive counter that isn't even full proof instead of taking something, like Dnite, that can counter Keldeo and put pressure back on the opponent. Again, Ginganinja explains why aggressive picks are the best in this challenge.


Edit: Well there was Tyranitar's comment about Latios having to deal with a Cube hiding behind a Sub that lead me to using the word counter. However, we don't even need to check Cube with each of our members because Heatran counters it sooo hard that even at +6, max HP, and hiding behind a Sub (heck we can even pretend he got Baton Passed defense boosts) Cube can not sweep because Heatran just Roars it out. Such a situation won't even come close to happening as nobody is going to be dumb enough to not react to the presence of Cube (the only case where you could legitimately stay in and give Cube an extra turn of set up is when you predict Cube to predict the Heatran switch in and switch out to Duggy or something). When Heatran can easily switch in on any of Cube's attacks and then get a free Substitute we really don't need to worry about Kyurem anymore.

 

[Reymedy]

Oh well, so it's Heatran... hmm...

Claydol @ Leftovers
Levitate
Impish Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
- Stealth Rocks
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Toxic


Why Claydol ?

Heatran is left free open to any Fighting and Ground attack.
Claydol doesn't give a single duck to these types of attacks. The issue could be the Water attacks, this can be fixed pretty easily later.

But why didn't I propose Latias ?

For the simple reason that Claydol SPINS and provides us with support. Yes he does the support job, and that's not all, he isn't weak to Dragon Tail. Basically he can come in Kyurem-B and spin, or put Stealth Rock.
Moreover he doesn't care about Dugtrio, he likes Dugtrio since the mole can't touch him (Reversal ? Stone Edge ? Earthquake ? Sucker Punch ? okay just let me spin and SR).

At this point, crushing the Dugtrio issue is in my opinion more important than anything else, and solving the hasards issue as fast as possible would be PERFECT.
Love him or not, I myself never used him in OU so some help on the set come be great, but Claydol fixes many holes that Heatran left open.

I see people taking about aggresive pokemons, allright.
But aggresive pokemons need support, Claydol provides them with this. And in the end, in the next round they won't be able to counter our sweepers yet. I don't think you can "counter" a spinner, whereas you can still get a wall to something (without requiring to take a blob or something like that, for instance a Scarf or a Specs Jellicent is fine on the offensive side, and your Keldeo is just deadweight as long as it's alive, and don't tell me that you only have to pick Tyranitar, because that's another pokemon weak to Dugtrio *it's just an example*). The less picks left, the less you can counter the opposing sweepers.
Chosing to be aggressive must be revealed the next turn in my opinion.

 

[MMII]

Claydol is a crappy spinner, it's a shaky check to Terrakion and other fighting and ground attacking mons (not stopping Breloom or Mamoswine), and there are better things with SR. Not only is it a passive mon that is bad, team 1 hasn't even picked anything that would justify something like Claydol that only wins a team slot due to a need to fill a very specific niche.

 

[Qwertyuiop]

Claydol is a pretty bad choice at the moment. Not only is it setup bait for pretty much everything, it loses to both the common spinblockers (Jelly and Gengar), and there are far better Terrakion checks available (Landorus-T for instance). Picking something like Claydol means Team 1 has an easy time putting Team 2 under offensive pressure.

 

[Reymedy]

"shaky check to Terrakion"

I really want to see you explaining me this point with some calculations :)

EDIT: +2 Terrakion 2HKO everything in OU, just saying. You just called "shaky" something that can come on a +2 Terrakion and live 2 hits. Choiced locked X-Scissor are easy for Heatran to take.

 

[MMII]

+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 135-160 (41.66 - 49.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 176-210 (54.32 - 64.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Some prior damage and Terrakion can outspeed and 2HKO before Claydol can do the same back. This isn't even considering the possibility of Ballon, Pursuit, or CB X-Scissor.

 

[ganj4lF]

I'm kinda liking Electrolyte's Latios suggestion, although it makes us susceptible to Pursuit to an extent. Latios has perfect type synergy with Heatran, is not easily countered thanks to Trick, and can break many walls to pieces just spamming its Draco Meteor, basically forcing them to react somehow, which is quite a good thing. Keldeo is pretty nice too, but the Heatran + Keldeo combo is hard walled by Jellicent, so if we're not trying to actively bait them into picking it (for some obscure reasons, I don't know...) we should avoid picking Keldeo that early. Gyarados is not really a good choice...it hates residual damage, which Kyurem will inevitably bring on our team, and cannot really threaten it since Stone Edge, as pointed out earlier, is unreliable and deals close to nothing after Roost (the argument "but I can T-Wave if he spams Roost" is quite moot IMHO, first of all he can fish for a SE miss five times before being forced to Roost, and even there, it's a prediction game and we shouldn't really rely on that). Breloom is a generally good pick, and helps against Cube to an extent, so that's not bad, too, Claydol...I don't know; I don't want to dismiss things too easily, but it just seems kinda easily exploited, for example by U-Turners, Water attacks, and having a mono-Ground coverage usually sounds like being a big set-up bait.

Keep up with the good discussion!

 

[Electrolyte]

I recognize that Latios can not switch in to Kyu-B, but it should never do so anyway. Latios should be used as a rock stop to the shuffling of Kyu-B- as should it be shuffled into a non subbed Kyu-B then we automatically gain tremendous momentum. It purpose is not to counter Kyu-B, but check it, as well as put on offensive force. Latios may be Pursuit weak, however that does not at all outweigh the numerous amount of advantages it provides as a fast powerful special attacker (plus, that weakness can be easily countered, or even used to our own benefit later.) As I said earlier, countering Kyu-B with our current position is great and all but we really need to look past that and choose a pokemon that can provide a variety of useful options to support the whole entire team. After that, then not being weak to Kyu-B should fall into consideration.

I'm also not a big fan of Claydol either, albeit the idea is correct in my opinion. It is obvious that team 1 is going to eventually use hazards, so saving a spot for a spinner eventually is a good idea- however, I do not think it is so right now. Spinning is a very subjective strategy, as the effectiveness depends on the spinner and the team it faces. Choosing a spinner before the opponent even shows hazards is a bad idea, since there are so many more ways to set hazards then there are to spin them. If we restrict ourselves to Claydol now, this can easily be exploited by team 1, and they could choose a pokemon that is able to set hazards past Claydol (Ferrothorn, for example) That would leave us in a sticky situation.

You also can't forget that team 1 is not incapable of NOT running hazards. It's unlikely, and as of now shouldn't even be considered, but should we choose a spinner before we see hazards it would only take one little notion for team 1 to ditch all and go rain, which would destroy team 2.

tl dr and quote of the day:
Never choose a spinner before you see hazards.

 

[TGMD]

..Anyways, I don't have much ideas of what that should be atm. So far Keldeo looks like a solid pick but it being Choice Scarf isn't a good idea. We don't even know what we are looking to revenge kill yet. Team 1 may end up going for HP Ground Volcarona for whatever reason and then we'll be wishing we had a Scarf Terrakion instead. Personally, I like the idea of SubCM Keldeo. Most of this set's counters are defensive mons like Jellicent or Amoongus which are to be avoided in this challenge. Almost all of the rest of the Water/Fighting resists are Pursuit weak leaving Toxicroak (who needs Rain), Venusaur (who needs Sun), Gyarados and Dnite (who are weak to SR) as the only options left. On top of this, Substitute makes it harder to revenge kill Keldeo so even checking it becomes difficult.

Keldo @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Calm Mind
- Substitute

First of all, I don't see why we'd be wishing we chose Choice Scarf Terrakion if they choose a Hidden Power [Ground] Volcarona because Keldeo still revenge kills it. Volcarona needs Giga Drain (which would involve getting rid of one of it's STABs when used in conjunction with Hidden Power [Ground]) or sun support to beat Keldeo. And even then there are multiple great offensive pokemon that will put a strain on sun in general as well as check Volcarona (Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp etc.)

I can understand your argument of not wanting to choose our Choice Scarfer so early, but what OU sweeper can't be revenge killed by Keldeo? There are only a few pokemon like Venusaur that pretty much need both Ninetales and Dugtrio to even have a chance of succeeding against this team and then there are the speed boosters, eg. Agility Thundurus-T, Rock Polish Landorus-I etc that are easily taken care of with the likes of Celebi, Lati@s (admittedly can be trapped by Tyranitar), Zapdos etc. By choosing Choice Scarf Keldeo now, the opposing team suffers a huge handicap when choosing their win condition. Also, no matter what we do, we can't choose our revenge killer after they choose their sweeper if they put it in the last slot, as they get the last pick.

I really don't like the look of that Keldeo, not only are we not able to choose a Choice Scarf Keldeo (it really is the best revenge killer atm) down the path, but it's easily walled by multiple offensively orientated pokemon. With Choice Scarf Keldeo we force the opposing team to choose a passive pokemon, that can likely be trapped, if they want to reliably take Keldeo down, but with this set they can just take advantage of our lack of coverage as well as our lack of speed and choose an offensive pokemon that we'll be forced to counter later on. They can easily choose a Salamence, Dragonite, etc to beat Keldeo, they are difficult to counter and they can't really be trapped by anything. You could argue that they're weak to Stealth Rock and they won't have recovery, but there are multiple Dragonite variants that can run Roost (SubDD, Tank, Shuffler etc.) They could also run something like a Scarf Breloom (more viable than it sounds) to take out a +6 Keldeo behind a Sub with no problem. Overall, Choice Scarf Keldeo forces more passive counters, who are trappable, and will put a much bigger strain on the opponent's team.

I'm kinda liking Electrolyte's Latios suggestion, although it makes us susceptible to Pursuit to an extent. Latios has perfect type synergy with Heatran, is not easily countered thanks to Trick, and can break many walls to pieces just spamming its Draco Meteor, basically forcing them to react somehow, which is quite a good thing. Keldeo is pretty nice too, but the Heatran + Keldeo combo is hard walled by Jellicent, so if we're not trying to actively bait them into picking it (for some obscure reasons, I don't know...) we should avoid picking Keldeo that early...

It's true that Keldeo and Heatran are countered by Jellicent, but like I mentioned in my nomination post: Jellicent is very easy to trap. We'll have no problem choosing a Specs Gothitelle or a Tyranitar later on to get rid of Jellicent. Not only that, but Jellicent is a passive pokemon, we're forcing them to take a more defensive route which is great for us, as it's very easy to exploit.

 

[ganj4lF]

It's true that Keldeo and Heatran are countered by Jellicent, but like I mentioned in my nomination post: Jellicent is very easy to trap. We'll have no problem choosing a Specs Gothitelle or a Tyranitar later on to get rid of Jellicent. Not only that, but Jellicent is a passive pokemon, we're forcing them to take a more defensive route which is great for us, as it's very easy to exploit.

Yeah I know that, still I don't really like to rely on a trapper at this point of the picking (especially if it's Gothitelle, that could be vulnerable to a sort of counter-trapping I guess) but it's probably just me; as for Jellicent being defensive...yeah, it plays in our favor to a point, although I'm not really happy if they can shut down one third of our team just with a pick anyway. Not denying that Scarf Keldeo is a legit pick, it's actually my second favourite anyway, although I'm still favouring Latios.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

But Latios being useful only when shuffled into an unsubbed Cube sounds very situational to me. Besides, I don't see why Cube can't setup a sub first the Dragon Tail. The only scenario when Latios comes in on an unsubbed Cube is when a mon breaks Cube's sub on the turn Cube shuffles it out. Even then we have to hope that we get shuffled into a Latios and not a mon that gives Kyurem-B time to sub or roost.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Latios is bad, but now, it might not be every ideal (perhaps in the later stages of the project).

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

It's true that Keldeo and Heatran are countered by Jellicent, but like I mentioned in my nomination post: Jellicent is very easy to trap. We'll have no problem choosing a Specs Gothitelle or a Tyranitar later on to get rid of Jellicent. Not only that, but Jellicent is a passive pokemon, we're forcing them to take a more defensive route which is great for us, as it's very easy to exploit.

But right now, do you see Gothitelle or Tyranitar fitting into our team. I don't see them doing so. And if we place them on our team, we have a great counter to Jellicent, but after that, they're pretty much setup fodder for Cube. What did they accomplish? Killing one mon out of six. After that? Setup fodder for our worst enemy.

Sure, Ttar can run Superpower, but the attack and defense drops turn after turn will take their toll. Specs Gothitelle has to lock itself into one move that is super effective against Jellicent, more than likely Thunderbolt (or a grass/darkness move if it learns one, which I highly doubt). Cube, when it inevitably switches in, will resist that move and set up all over Gothitelle.

 

[TGMD]

But right now, do you see Gothitelle or Tyranitar fitting into our team. I don't see them doing so. And if we place them on our team, we have a great counter to Jellicent, but after that, they're pretty much setup fodder for Cube. What did they accomplish? Killing one mon out of six. After that? Setup fodder for our worst enemy.

Sure, Ttar can run Superpower, but the attack and defense drops turn after turn will take their toll. Specs Gothitelle has to lock itself into one move that is super effective against Jellicent, more than likely Thunderbolt (or a grass/darkness move if it learns one, which I highly doubt). Cube, when it inevitably switches in, will resist that move and set up all over Gothitelle.

I don't see why they wouldn't fit into the team, maybe you can explain why you think they don't? They're both versatile pokemon that can trap multiple threats and perform many useful roles. We can take advantage of their trapping capabilities by incorporating other partners that appreciate pokemon that are trapped by them being out of the picture. So we become set-up fodder for a pokemon that we hard counter with Heatran, check with Keldeo etc in exchange for getting rid of a pokemon that gives the team some trouble? That's definitely worth it imo. As long as we keep Heatran alive then letting Kyurem-B set up a Sub at one point is no big deal, we're going to make sure this team is prepared for Kyurem-B anyway so I wouldn't stress about one pokemon letting Kyurem-B get up a Sub at one point in the match. Also, you keep double posting, there's a multi-quote button next to the quote button, it has a " and a + on it. Click the multi-quote button on all the posts you wish to quote and then click the quote button, I hope this helps :)

 

[Crackstar]

Though I like Specs Latios, the situation isn't ideal if Latios comes in when Kyurem-B is behind a Sub. Kyurem-B could take the Draco and then phaze out Latios with Dragon Tail (which 2HKOes if I am not wrong). Then we are shuffled into a Pokemon that is forced to switch, giving Cube time to Sub/Roost

Well yeah that was the whole point of Heatran

Latios never has to switch into Cube, it's Team 2's first offensive threat that Team 1 has to counter. I like Latios, I've found that pressure-cooker teams are the best in community-built enviorments, as they play pretty much the same for everyone. Latios has a select number of counters, all of which have things that counter and set up on them (Ttar, Terrakion, Loom, etc.; the Blobs, everything, Steels, Heatran, which is already there), leading to more holes to exploit. I'm supporting Latios for Team 2's second

 

[dragonuser]

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

This set has fantastic synergy with Heatran. It really takes care of most of the physical attackers that trouble Heatran, including Pokemon like Terrakion. This set also gives us Stealth Rock, which helps a lot with Heatran's possible phazing abilities. Earthquake and Stone Edge give good coverage, while U-Turn gives momentum. Adding Landorus-T would further our Rain weakness, but that can easily be handled later on in team building so it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[KRageToo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Heatran a faster phazer in order to counter Kyurem-B? Plus, it has Substitute to protect itself from Dragon Tails.
Support goes to Latios since I wanted to suggest it, although I don't like having a Choiced pokemon already, but the advantages from it is great. Great synergy with Heatran as mentioned and Kyurem-B won't get too many chances for a substitute since our Heatran pretty much hard counters it. Scenario 2, it shuffles us to Latios without a sub. So...we either counter it or check it. Then again though, Team 1 may go for a strong pursuit user. Take TTar for example who potentially counters both Team 2 choices so far. Residual damage from sandstorm isn't too appreciated by Kyurem-B especially if there hazards on their side of the field. Sure it has Roost, but any form of damage can be detrimental to it. It also gives them a two fighting type weaknesses that we could exploit, but Team 1 will have 2 picks afterwards so we'll see. Then again, I'm probably wrong since there are plenty other powerful Pursuit users or other checks/counters. I'm just implying that pursuit might not be such a problem.
Just a word though, once we trick, Ferrothorn pretty much walls the set...oh wait, we have Heatran. So yeah, Latios has pretty good offensive presence.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

@The Great Mighty Doom: The reason why I don't like Ttar or Goth is because they are dedicated to countering only the one Jellicent. After that, Ttar or Goth falls to something like a fast Scarf Terrakion or Gengar. Also, T1 has the last pick and they can choose something to check all of t2's mons like they did the last time. Btw, what happens of Heatran switches into Cube on a Dragon Tail?

@Crackstar: Electrolyte said that Latios would be useful when an unsubbed Cube shuffles it in. I find that very unlikely to happen. I think I said why in the post below

Hide

But Latios being useful only when shuffled into an unsubbed Cube sounds very situational to me. Besides, I don't see why Cube can't setup a sub first the Dragon Tail. The only scenario when Latios comes in on an unsubbed Cube is when a mon breaks Cube's sub on the turn Cube shuffles it out. Even then we have to hope that we get shuffled into a Latios and not a mon that gives Kyurem-B time to sub or roost.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Latios is bad, but now, it might not be every ideal (perhaps in the later stages of the project).

 

[TGMD]

@The Great Mighty Doom: The reason why I don't like Ttar or Goth is because they are dedicated to countering only the one Jellicent. After that, Ttar or Goth falls to something like a fast Scarf Terrakion or Gengar. Also, T1 has the last pick and they can choose something to check all of t2's mons like they did the last time. Btw, what happens of Heatran switches into Cube on a Dragon Tail?...

Gothitelle wouldn't be dedicated to countering just Jellicent, it would be dedicated to countering the pokemon that cause problems for the team. If we choose pokemon that take advantage of Gothitelle's trapping abilities then there'd be multiple pokemon Gothitelle would be able to trap, meaning it's use wouldn't end against the single Jellicent. Also, Gothitelle isn't KOed by Gengar, it lives a hit and OHKOes back (especially if we run a bulky Specs set.) Gothitelle is a rather hard pokemon to counter in general, as if you bring it in on something that doesn't counter it, then it's probably game over for that pokemon, this may force the other team to over prepare for Gothitelle and possibly cause them to choose less viable pokemon than their original pick just because it's less Gothitelle weak. Lastly, if Heatran switches in on Kyurem-B's Dragon Tail then it'll phaze us into something else in our team and it wouldn't have been able to set-up, meaning there'd be no problem with anything being set-up fodder.