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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    First, Keldeo is a bad pick at this point of the process.
    Simply because he's better as late game sweeper. Doesn't take a genius to realise that chosing a late game sweeper right now is a foolish idea.
    For instance, last CTP, a team took Keldeo scarf as 2nd or 3rd pick I think and it underperformed EVEN THOUGH the opposite team had another bad answer in Rotom-W. So yes, it is only a good pick if the picks of the other team are even worse.

    And to beat Landorus RP, you just make sure that a good part of your team shut him down by outspeeding him. I think it's also a bad pick.
    Given that it doesn't have Rock Polish, it is easier to counter by counting on the speed factor. And if it has RP, you can make sure that your team doesn't let him set-up, which isnt hard. On the top on that, we know the speed he's running, so he can't even bluff here. Keldeo, Latias, Latios, Gengar, Starmie etc. to be faster, and many poke can take a hit decently and force him away. Landorus is an OP trump card, wasting it now just because it's fancy and everywhere, is meh (same goes for Keldeo).
    But that's a easy-to-go pick, I can see it being picked here...
  2. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

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    Any feedback on my Moxie mixmence submission? Right now I think the strongest candidates would have to be landorus(u-turn). This guy is both hard to counter and could be usefull throughout the entire match, which past ctp's have shown is crucial. Alakazam also seems like it'd be a strong pick due to his speed and coverage.
  3. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    I agree at some point with Remedy. That's why I picked Rotom-W as the first Pokemon. It helps the team and it is incredible by itself, keeps the momentum, spreads status and cripples walls with Pain Split while having an awesome typing and good coverage in two moves.

    Now, it is true that Team 2 can choose something to counter/check it with ease like Celebi or Ferrothorn, but there is where you have more options for the second Pokemon of Team 1.
  4. Frochtejohgurt

    Frochtejohgurt

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    Although I'm a fan of Landorus-I with U-turn, I would also like to propose a different approach. As you can see every submission so far was an sweeper, which is obviously a smart move, given the pressure it will create. To switch it up, I suggest:

    [​IMG]
    Landorus-T (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rocks
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - U-turn


    Kind of an odd suggestion, since it isn't the offensive beast, his Sheer Force brother or Keldeo is, but hear me out. What do we gain:
    -Stealth Rock, so we won't have to squeeze it in later
    -momentum gainer
    -a Pokemon that will work well with every team pretty much
    -most importantly: due to Intimidate we will lower the viability of every physically attacking Pokemon, thus limiting the pool of Pokemon Team 2 can freely choose from
  5. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    To be honest i dont think the first pick matters that much.. whatever we will chose will be hard countered by the other 6 member so it will be useless for the majority of the battle. The only thing it need the first pokemon is to have vaste coverage to hit everything and put pressure to the opponent, reason why i've seen a lot of pokemon with u-turn/volt switch or with strong attack like CB kyurem or orb Salamence. I think we will vote depending on the pokemon we like the most, there arent any objective metods.
  6. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    This isn't true. There is something that you can't counter, which is utility.
    The less utility a first pick nomination brings, the less value it has. The other tricky point, is that, on top of bringing utility, it needs to not be set-up bait. That's why, pokemons with a good defensive typing, utility moves, and pivoting skills, are in my opinion the best to start with. You have to keep in mind the battle that occured in the end of last CTP, and then you can clearly see what I'm talking about. Don't pick sitting ducks as first pokemons, even if they're powerful as fack, or they will end up being a waste of a team slot anyway.
  7. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Screaming Rotom-W.

    It is not set-up fodder, it can scout with Volt-Switch, it can attack, it gives the team an opportunity to sweep easier. Depending on the Pokemon that Team 2 picks, we can start building the offensive core.
  8. The Reptile

    The Reptile make it rain
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    Because the pokemon I wanted to post (Lando-I), I give you Sub+3 Attacks Hydreigon


    [​IMG]
    Hydreigon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 56 HP / 200 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Substitute
    - Fire Blast
    - Focus Blast


    SubRoost Hydreigon trades it's glorious coverage to use Substitute to get over its disappointing speed. Dragon Pulse is STAB, while Focus Blast and Fire Blast are for coverage. The spread is a more bulkier one to take advantage of Hydreigon's good bulk while outspeeding neutral base 91's. Sub lets it sub up on something that it threatens (which is a lot of things) and prevents revenge killing while the sub is up. His extra bulk (with the 56 HP) allow him to keep his sub on weaker attacks.
  9. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    @Remedy:
    Expert Belt Keldeo isn't a late-game cleaning set. In fact it's meant to be utilized early game where it can switch in, open holes and eliminate certain Pokemon that act as a counter/check to other teammates. Keldeo is an offensive support Pokemon. Keldeo isn't meant to come out and sweep teams on its own. Rather, it assists other Pokemon such as Landorus or Breloom by baiting and eliminating certain Pokemon such as Celebi. Plus, Expert Belted Keldeo is a rare sight and not too many people are "prepared" for it as they are prepared for things like Scarfed Keldeo. Keldeo with an Expert Belt is more than capable of running through top OU threats such as Heatran, Latios [Icy Wind+HP Bug], Landorus, Dragonite, Salamence, Blissey, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Breloom, and so forth.

    Keldeo can seriously be utilized effectively as it is really a strong pivot point to build off of. If Team 2 wishes to directly counter EB Keldeo, they will have to resort to things such as Jellicent and Latias. This allows us to pick up Pokemon such as Scizor, Jirachi or Tyranitar that not only synergize with Keldeo but really create a fearsome core.
  10. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    I fully agree with this. While Rotom-W surely brings utility to the team, it fails to avoid being set-up bait in my opinion. The aforementioned Celebi can do whatever it wants, Dragons can Substitute before WoW and do whatever they please, and Guts pokemon can put Team 1 at a disadvantage with the guessing game. On the other hand, that Lando-T is exactly on point, in my opinion: it gives both hazard support and scouting support, has an ability that does something even if Lando is OHKO'd (I can't think of something more resilient to counterpicking than this), and is not set-up bait thanks to its huge base Attack, that will hurt even uninvested. I'm wondering why you don't use the standard spread (the additional punch will help avoiding setups, while the additional defense feels somewhat unnecessary onto something that is not 2HKO'd by Terrakion already).
  11. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I feel as if the only problem with landorus-t as a first pick, and this is from experience, is that oftentimes it does end up being setup bait/even a liability due to its weakness to water+ice+strong special moves combined with his relatively low speed. If we were to pick lando, the opposing team would obviously not choose terrakion/etc., completely rendering his niche void. However, they could choose seomthing like keldeo that could easily steal the momentum as lando is too slow to u-turn out (or set up rocks).

    For the aforementioned reason, I find that any defensive pokemon is a bad first pick because the opponent can simply pick something that isn't walled by it (jellicent => no keldeo, lando => no terrakion, skarm => no banded dragons, etc.) and effectively compromise its niche

    Ebelt keldeo just isn't strong enough, though. With (practically) no boosting item, many pokes will be able to easily stomach a hit. While it is great for supporting the likes of lando, etc., that niche is rendered useless by the fact that there is no surprise value in this project. Not only that, but starting with a pokemon in hopes of having it mainly function to support other particular pokemon is not the best idea imo...

    ^yup. Agreed
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I find the max HP/max Def+ spread with HP Ice better on Lando-T than the standard one and here is my reasoning:

    Show Hide
  13. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    So, with a single pick, we force Team 2 to completely avoid picking physical powerhouses not named Mamoswine? Seems a good tradeoff to me. If they don't do so, Landorus-T will almost surely come handy in some situations. That's why I feel that could be a good first pick: it may be sub par, but it's almost never useless in my experience, and seeing how the first pick turned out to work in the last two CtPs, having something which presents a very low risk to become useless is preferable to something that is awesome in some situations, and useless in others. The only way for Team 2 to build a team that makes it bad is very restrictive on their teambuilding, which is a great achievement for us to get.

    @alexwolf: fair enough, I just never thought about it. Thanks for explaining!
  14. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    I don't know how to explain myself...When I said to scout using Volt Switch I referred to scout the switch of a Celebi (for example). Celebi can come to wall Rotom-W to then receive V-switch damage letting the team 1 send the appropiate counter/check. About the dragons, you are right, but it is not like the first poke we have to choose is not supposed to have any flaws, if we pick Lando-I we can say that Moltres can easily wall it and use it as set-up bait too.
  15. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Despite the very nice trade off that you mentioned, though, it could simply cause the opposing team to rework. Why bother with a physical powerhouse when team 1 is immediately vulnerable to x special attacker with mediocre speed? A big issue with stall is that it is impossible to wall the whole meta, and I believe that the same concept applies here. There are no shortage of powerhouses, except knowing the walls the opponent is using allows a team to pick and choose the best ones for the situation.

    Landorus in particular isn't as guilty of this as many pokes, but he simply too easily becomes a liability if the opponent already knows he exists on the team due to his lackluster spdef and weakness to water.

    Now this certainly as big as a problem as I may be making it seem it is (sorry! Internets aren't good at emotions), but the difference between picking landorus-t and, let's say, landorus is that landorus-t doesn't need to be countered... it doesn't have that big of a job (sweeping, etc.) so the opponent initially has a huge range of pokes to pick from (many of which can inhibit landorus-t). Picking something offensive like landorus though immediately has the opposing team picking defensively to try and deal with it and the amount of immediate feasible picks goes down to 3 or 4 pokemon.
  16. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Of all the submissions so far, I think Landorus-I, Hydreigon, Rotom-W, Scizor, Zoroark, and Landorus-T have varying degrees of my support. Why? Access to U-Turn or Volt Switch is crucial for this CtP. As seen in the last CtP, where there was a LOT of switching being done, being able to switch out of counters while maintaining momentum when necessary is extremely useful. The check/counter to your pick (say Celebi) can't counter you if you switch out (Rotom-W using Volt Switch).

    Also, I think we should acquire a good hazard setter early on. In the last CtP, just having Stealth Rock on the field contributed a massive amount to Team 2's victories, and although it means it can technically be "countered" as well, an efficient hazard setter with U-Turn/Volt Switch will prove to be an excellent initial pick, IMO. Therefore, I'm supporting Landorus-T as our first pick.
  17. Frochtejohgurt

    Frochtejohgurt

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    First of Landorus-T doesn't mean we are going to build stall. Infact it does perfectly fine on offensive teams as a defensive pivot. Secondly I would gladly accept being weak to special attackers, when we basically hinder everything physical with just 1 pick. We still have 5 more check special threats.
  18. Vemane

    Vemane

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    I never said we are going to build stall at all... and I acknowledged that it was a pivot.

    My point was that choosing landorus-t does not make the opponent have to counter anything

    Rather landorus-t IS a counter

    Therefore it isn't a good first pick
  19. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Then we a different opinion about whats sitting duck and what isnt. Pokemon with great coverage move (keldeo?) insane power (salamence?) will never let a pokemon setup anything. Pokemon with u-turn can also avoid this, but if for some reason you have your scizor against a keldeo you cant say it isnt setup bait for keldy. Of course you wont let this happen, but still its a possibility, while if you chose Salamence you will just ko everything you are against.
    Also, with "hard countered" i meant that if we choose lando now, the other team will just chose 6 pokemon that wont let it set up, for example mamoswine, then a keldeo which is faster and ko, and others pokemon with ice/water moves or strong special attack. But this will happen for almost any pokemon we chose, thats why im saying that the first pick doesnt really matter.
  20. Vemane

    Vemane

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    But that can be prevented or even used against the opponent with something like landorus or kyurem b where they are forced to pick from such a small and in some cases niche pool of pokemon else they will be crushed.

    So if they decide to stack up on these hugely defensive pokes to deal with the first pokemon, team 1 will have the upper hand as they forced team 2 to pick defensively
  21. kakuna

    kakuna

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    I would like to say everything Neliel said in his post. This pokemon will not sweep the opponent, but we should aim to make it force the opponent to use obscure/bad pokemon in order to counter it. So what is my suggestion? Choice specs hydreigon. It is like latios, but you can't counter it with jirachi, tyranitar, or celebi. You have to go straight to blissey or chansey. Ha!
    [​IMG]
    Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 44 HP / 212 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Draco Meteor
    - Fire Blast
    - Focus Blast
  22. Vemane

    Vemane

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    The problem with SPECS hydreigon is that while powerful, the opponent really DOESN'T have to go straight to blissey or chansey. Hell, flash fire ninetales may be a good answer (because it is choiced). This means that you do not really need to counter hyreigon because you can just play around it in one move.
  23. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    [​IMG]
    Shaymin @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 82 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Rest

    shaymin simply wrecks. really does a great job against your everyday rain team, can take 2 hits from any keldeo that's not specs and ohkos back easily. also switches in super easily on politoed, celebi, etc. seed flare in itself is really great seeing as you have a 40% chance to drop the opponent's sdef by 2 stages, meaning if that opp is celebi or scizor or whatever they now can't stay in safely. shaymin's coverage is also excellent; earth power donks heatran, lucario, etc. and hidden power ice prevents any dragon from feeling safe when it's around. natural cure + rest is the star of the show, when you're low on hp you can just rest up, switch out, and you're back at full health next time you switch in with no status. this also allows you to act as a status absorber and abuse life orb to the fullest. overall shaymin's a way underused threat that deserves some respect, and building a team around it would be a fulfilling exercise that might do just that.
  24. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Alright, we already got a huge number of submissions and the discussion is limited since we're picking our first pokemon; let's go straight into voting! This is the list of available options:


    To vote, you have to send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; write in both title and body of the message "CtP: your preference" where your preference is obviously selected from the previous list. You will have at least 24 hours to vote from this post, as usual; Melee Mewtwo will post the final tally at the end of the phase.

    Please do not edit the posts containing the sets being voted on for any reason. Also, you can't change your vote after having sent your PM; think twice before doing so. And, obviously, only vote once, since only the first message from everyone will be considerated.

    This is the first time doing private voting, so I hope everything will be okay; for any kind of issues, suggestions, or whatever, feel free to contact me or Melee Mewtwo as you feel more appropriate. Thank you.
  25. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    Nah, it doesn't happen for every pokemon we choose.
    A quick example, if you take Scizor, what do you think that the ennemy team will take ?
    I don't know to be honest, but on the other hand, if we pick Keldeo, I can really see a lot of pokemons that you can switch in peacefully.
    Keldeo really DOESNT have great coverage, I don't know how you can say that. The Expert-Belt with 4 attacking slots cannot touch a water mon, and it's not like water mons are hard to find. Again, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that we should not take the classic OU powerhouses just because they're the OU powerhouses, and instead focus on giving tools to our that future picks won't be able to counter totally.
    Mence is cool, but it's a bit like Landorus in the way that the ennemy team can make sure you'll get outsped and killed.

    To put it in a nutshell, remember the last CTP... the team A JUST needed Nape, and it could kill the whole ennemy team B on paper. Do you still think that it's smart to pick blindly a 4 attacks powerhouse, when we'll be able to do it later, better, and without the fear of being walled ?
    I think it's not, and since you said it yourself, we'll be countered. So pick something that will be useful even if countered.

    I chose Starmie last time, and I still think that it's the perfect example of something in OU that you can't really shut down. It will be a threat onto almost every OU powerhouse given its speed, it has a really good coverage in BoltBeam, and in the worst case scenario, it can spin. They take a Pursuiter ? It will be a set-up bait for something, trust me.

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