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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    Ganj i think there's a typo, the terrakion set isn't CB. Which is too bad since that would be a great first mon smh...

    I personally think starmie and shaymin are the best picks there since they are p close to impossible to hard counter. Shaymin in particular i like since with seed flare it can do a ton of damage even if the other team chooses a counter due to the SpD drop rate. Starmie is a great option too though since its coverage means close to nothing actually walls it, and stuff like ferro is easily taken advantage of (mag, fighting types, etc.). Also, just a question of protocol for you ganj--could we potentially slash something like hp fire with hp ice on min, for example? Or on starmie too, come to think of it.
  2. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Shaymin:
    Show Hide

    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 34.05 - 40.24%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 33.95 - 40.43%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 41.87 - 49.23%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 50.15 - 59.32%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 50.28 - 59.37%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Ferrothorn: 58.11 - 68.37%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 60.37 - 71.15%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 63.81 - 75.21%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 64.24 - 75.58%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 64.96 - 76.72%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 65.59 - 77.97%
    +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 66.33 - 78.46%

    And that's ASSUMING shaymin uses seed flare... and it gets the spdef drop... and it hits... and the opp doesn't switch or whatever. It isn't very difficult to counter (100 spatt only goes so far...)

    Starmie:
    Show Hide

    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 19.17 - 22.69%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 23.47 - 27.69%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 24.43 - 28.69%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 26.07 - 31.02%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Ferrothorn: 28.2 - 33.33%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 124 HP / 132 SpD Gastrodon: 28.93 - 34.26%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 31.45 - 37.34%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 35.78 - 42.14%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 35.85 - 42.76%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 38.61 - 45.79%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 39.85 - 47.52%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 40.59 - 48.26%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Celebi: 41.08 - 49%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 41.7 - 49.74%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 43.47 - 51.08%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 44.21 - 52.06%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 46.71 - 55.26%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 49.17 - 58.51%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 50.53 - 60.04%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 51.11 - 60.06%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 50.64 - 60.17%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Haxorus: 51.36 - 60.54%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Magnezone: 52.03 - 61.62%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 52.47 - 62.12%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 52.74 - 62.91%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 53.59 - 63.27%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 53.59 - 63.27%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Metagross: 53.84 - 63.46%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 55.18 - 65.28%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 56.25 - 66.4%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Reuniclus: 57.07 - 67.45%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 57.14 - 67.85%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 58.03 - 68.65%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 58.13 - 69.18%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 58.35 - 69.32%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 58.72 - 69.52%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-D: 58.92 - 69.7%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 58.85 - 69.79%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 59.27 - 70.52%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 59.41 - 70.66%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 192 HP / 52 SpD Venusaur: 61.03 - 72.2%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 61.98 - 73.39%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 62.17 - 73.6%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 62.69 - 74%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Scizor: 62.97 - 74.34%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 63.66 - 75.49%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tentacruel: 64.21 - 76.58%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 120 HP / 136 SpD Conkeldurr: 65.87 - 77.69%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Conkeldurr: 66.05 - 78.32%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 66.08 - 78.36%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 66.27 - 78.59%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 66.46 - 78.74%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 67.54 - 80.11%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 68.87 - 81.78%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 69.34 - 82.04%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Jirachi: 69.79 - 82.4%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 69.75 - 82.71%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 69.96 - 82.97%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 70.18 - 83.22%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 71.78 - 84.91%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 72.94 - 85.99%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 72.64 - 86.16%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 73.76 - 87.46%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 74.83 - 88.74%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur: 75.08 - 89.03%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 75.76 - 89.26%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 75.99 - 89.35%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 75.54 - 89.47%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 76.23 - 89.81%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 76.49 - 90.72%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Eviolite Riolu: 77.03 - 90.81%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 76.88 - 91.16%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 79.32 - 93.82%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 79.65 - 94.48%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon: 81.91 - 97.04%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 81.91 - 97.16%
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragonite: 83.41 - 99.74%

    More impressive, but certainly counterable (especially with hpump misses and such). I do quite like starmie though! (but I prefer the utility of rapid spin combined with an ebelt)
  3. Neo Dar

    Neo Dar

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    [​IMG]

    Reuniclus @ Flame Orb
    Trait:Magic Guard
    Evs: 252 HP/126 Def/126 SpDef
    Bold Nature
    Psychic
    Light Screen
    Reflect
    Trick

    I have had great success with this set and it absolutely cripples psychical pokes, walls (I'm looking at you Jelli), Leftovers Poli, Jirachi, and pretty much anything without a recovery move. The Flame Orb works with us on the switch in too because even if we get burned, we take no damage and now cant be put to sleep by spore or hypnosis, or paralyzed by a paraflinch.

    Now that we have the other pokemon burned we can set up walls or do whatever damage we think we can get off. He is surprisingly resilient and can take a lot of damage before keeling over.
  4. Kidogo

    Kidogo

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    Just a note about your shaymin calcs, I think the idea is that you hit the "counter", such as scizor, on the switch-in with seed flare, and then hit them at -2 SpD with the appropriate move next turn. So taking your calc: +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 64.24 - 75.58% added to 252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Scizor: 55-65 (15.98 - 18.89%) you get like 80%-94%, which is a great chance to KO after SR. The point of this is just that even something like extremely SpD scizor (a set that is close to non-existent) cannot switch into shaymin safely, making it much harder for the opposing team to actually render shaymin useless in a match. Even stuff like blissey can be beaten since seed flare keeps doing more and more.
  5. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Sorry but submissions are over, we're voting now. I forgot to edit the thread's title, sorry about that.

    EDIT: sorry for not answering readily:

    I guess ginganinja fixed Terrakion, so thank him for that, I apologize for the mistake. On Hidden Power, picking either HP Ice or HP Fire actually changes the list of counters / checks the pokemon has. Let's use Heatran as an example (Starmie is a pretty bad one since it can use Ice Beam lol): you're running an offensive set @ Life Orb, with Fire Blast | Earth Power | Stealth Rock | HP Something. If you pick HP Ice, I can't counter you by just picking Dragonite and set up Dragon Dances on you, and if you pick HP Grass my Gastrodon idea goes out of the window. Basically if you allow slashes that change coverage you're making almost impossible the work for the enemy team, that's why they are not allowed.
  6. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Okay so since this vote is a landslide (haha bad puns) there's no need to drag it out.
    Voting is closed!

    • CB Kyu-B: 1
    • Mixmence: 1
    • CM Keldeo: 1
    • Scizor: -1
    • Starmie: 1
    • Mixed Hydreigon: 1
    • RP Lando: 1
    • Shaymin: 2
    • Lando-T: 3
    • U-Turn Landorus-I: 6

    Welcome to Team 1 Landorus.

    [​IMG]
    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - U-turn

    Now is the time to discuss potential counters to serve as the first pick for Team 2.



    Just a general reminder, don't forget that countering a Pokemon isn't the only part of this project. You also want to pick Pokemon that are as hard to counter as possible at the same time so that it'll put pressure on the other team's future picks. I know it'll be hard to find a good counter for Landorus but try to make sure that it can hit back as well. If the team loses control in the picks it'll lose control in the game.
  7. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent come at me winter
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    [​IMG]
    Gyarados @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 204 Spd / 104 Atk / 200 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Bounce
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Rest

    Don't hate on this set. I've been using it for a good while on my main OU team which i plan to post in the near future, and it's truly phenomenal in this meta. Basically it counters Landorus, and as a bonus it also counters Keldeo, and Tyranitar obviously can't switch in. It also gives Team 2 a starting sweeper of their own. EVs are to outspeed Alakazam, HP lets it do nifty thing like avoid 2HKOs from Keldeo and Landorus sets, and rest is poured into Attack for some random KO that I've forgotten... I just ripped it from my team
  8. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    @cherub i would honestly avoid stealth rock weak pokemon because landorus will just force us to bring gyarados in while he u-turns, making it not a great counter in the long run, however its true that landorus itself with stealth rock up and the recoil of life orb wont last that much if we force it to use moves like hp ice or U-turn, so we can play around it in this way.

    Anyway here is my submission; i wanted to chose an offensive oriented pokemon able to switch in on it against his stab, difficult to wear down with hazards and possibly with a recovery move.
    Gengar has almost any of those qualities, and after thinking a little about which set should be the best, i came up with the conclusion that Pain split orb gengar is the best set.

    [​IMG]

    Gengar (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Pain Split
    - Substitute
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast


    So this is the calculation of hp ice and u-turn against gengar;

    HP Ice: 44.65 - 52.67%

    U-turn: 10.3 - 12.21%

    As you can see it takes very little damage from these moves and in the meanwhile we are forcing it to use moves not affected by sheer force, and with sr up in the long run it wont be difficult to beat. Even though hp ice does maybe 2ko with sr, keep in mind you are faster doing 71.15 - 84.32% with shadow ball and the possibility of recover your hp with pain split. Sure its not the best counter in the world but its our best pokemon to check it at least without having to use niche pokemon that will just do nothing else. Gengar is an overall good pokemon and not even that easy to counter, shadow ball and focus blast again have a good neutral coverage against everything.
    I am worried about the other team peaking a scarf tyranitar or something to trap it with u-turn, but i cant do miracle :x Also if they do so we can take advantage of pursuit in other way, so we will see..
  9. Vemane

    Vemane

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    It was my intention that the shaymin calcs would be impressive, the negative came in with the 40% chance that seed flare activates (plus the 85% chance that it hits) Relying on something like twave iron head is okay, but somewhat pushing it due to how quickly it could screw you over. On less than 40% seed flare is a different story (though shaymin packs very impressive power even without the drop)


    In any case, to counter landorus, I propose...

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-W @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 24 SpAtt / 232 SpD / 4 Spe
    Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-o-Wisp
    - Hydro Pump
    - Rest


    Chestorest rotom-w. Rotom is already a very nice counter due to lando's reliance on focus blast to hit it, but it is often worn down too quickly which is where rest comes in. While standard rotom can only usually afford one switch in, chesto rest rotom allows it to either stay in on lando, or rest on a safe switch in, regaining it to full health and allowing to to continue stopping lando from firing off ridiculous earth powers. While lando can u-turn, it is not doing too much to rotom especially considering, unless it is on a switch, he can predict it and volt switch out giving us the momentum. Not only that, but if lando does u-turn on the switch, all hope is not lost as rotom can simply volt switch out, conserving momentum at least a bit. When not dealing with lando, it can function as a very nice defensive pivot, volt switching to gain momentum or using will-o-wisp to burn threatening physical attackers. The lack of surprise value even helps rotom in this regard as it will cause the opponent to be hesitant to switch in said physical attackers in the first place, making it easier to just volt switch away.
  10. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Volt Switch on Rotom-W forces you into a mind game though.
    Although it's a nice concept, it really will force you to predict, as there are really four scenarios:

    Landorus-I U-Turns + Rotom-W uses Volt Switch = you preserve momentum.

    Landorus-I U-Turns + Rotom-W uses Hydro Pump / Will-o-Wisp on some that doesn't care = you lose momentum.

    Landorus-I uses Focus Blast (252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-168 (46.86 - 55.44%) -- 16.41% chance to 2HKO) + Rotom-W uses Volt Switch = you lose momentum because Landorus-I is immune.

    Landorus-I uses Focus Blast + Rotom-W uses Hydro Pump = you knock out Landorus-I and gain momentum.

    (Correct me if I'm wrong)

    Rotom-W with Volt Switch is basically always a good idea to preserve momentum, but in this specific scenario, when trying to counter Landorus-I, will require some serious skill to achieve what you want.

    Edit: That's true Vemane, I understand what you mean, and so I tried to not put any particular bias into my post. I'm just stating that we'll need to be cautious playing with Rotom-W vs. Landorus-I.
  11. Vemane

    Vemane

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    While it is certainly true, the inverse is as well. Landorus could switch/u-turn, but then have the switch in eat a volt switch/wisp. Or it could predict the volt switch and die to a hpump. The pressure is obviously stronger on rotom-w, but this can be augmented by simply playing it safe. There is nothing that says rotom-w can't just hpump every time. That just means life orb damage and hazard damage for the opposing team and while it may cost momentum, volt switch/just switching to another counter can regain it.
  12. MX42

    MX42

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    Jun 25, 2012
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    [​IMG]
    Starmie~Leftovers
    252 Spa, 252 Spe, 4 HP
    Timid nature, Natural Cure
    Surf
    Thunderbolt
    Ice Beam
    Rapid Spin

    Its Starmie, what needs to be said. Without that precious Rock Polish, Starmie will outspeed Lando and OHKO with Ice Beam or Surf. It must be careful of U- Turn, but the utility it brings with BoltBeam and Spinning outway its flaws. Not to mention, any SR weak pokes we choose later will get to come in safer and we remove vital chip damage. Not to mention, it scares off Dragon picks to a degree...
  13. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    i think you selected the single hardest set to counter in ou.

    that said, i support gar and cress. reserving sdef zapdos
  14. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    This is a really nice set, I back this one. Gyarados is incredibly threatening in the current meta, and considering most teams are unprepared for the wrath of this monster, this is a great start for Team 2. IMO the pluses it has over bulky SubDD sets is that it can Rest off damage to more effectively counter Landorus and Keldeo.

    The reason why I back this one apart from the above reasons is that it has a lot of offensive presence while still countering Landorus, and another huge OU pokemon Keldeo.
  15. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    The set looks good, however, if you think a little, Gyarados has to many flaws in this case. Lando can U-turn while it comes to take a hit and then team 1 can send a volt-switch user and force Gyarados out (it lacks substitute). This plus rocks damage can easily wear it down while forming a Volt-Turn core that is always appreciated.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Neliel got the best possible submission for this project. Not only can Gengar come into anything Landorus has easily and force Landorus to take LO damage, it can also OHKO Landorus after SR + 2 LO recoil, which is easy to do. Let Gengar take one HP Ice as it comes in, and then use Sub so that Landorus loses another 10%, and next turn go for the kill. All that while Gengar itself is a pretty difficult Pokemon to counter, fitting excellent in the project's theme.

    And even if team 1 goes for Tyranitar, choiced Pursuit is our friend and an open invite for dangerous sweepers.

    SubSplit Gengar ftw!
  17. relaunched

    relaunched

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    Nominating Specially Defensive Bronzong:

    [​IMG]
    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
    Sassy Nature (+SpD, -Spe)
    -Stealth Rock
    -Gyro Ball
    -Hidden Power Ice
    -Toxic

    This set is comparable to LilOuOn's Cresselia, with the following key differences:
    -Much worse bulk.
    -Neutrality to Focus Blast and U-Turn.
    -Stronger attacking prowess with Gyro Ball.
    -Supports the team with Stealth Rock.
    -Better defensive typing.

    Basically, both Cresselia and Bronzong are setup bait if Landorus U-turns out, though Bronzong keeps a bit more momentum thanks to Stealth Rock and better attacking. Unfortunately it sacrifices overall bulk to do so. Still, this Bronzong doesn't have to worry about a Focus Blast 2HKO from Landorus.

    So far I think Bronzong, Cresselia, and Gengar are all good choices, with different things going for them.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Lol, just now realized that CRESSELIA DOESN'T GET WOW.
  19. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Damn, I didn't know that Cress doesn't get WOW. Thanks alex...

    Deleted set (open)

    [​IMG]
    Cresselia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Moonlight
    - Will-O-Wisp Reflect
    - Ice Beam
    - Psychic


    This thing completely walls Sheer Force Landorus. There is not a lot to say about how she deals with it, the problem is the Tyranitar behind the Lando (in the case that team 1 chooses it, which is a great option). That's why Will-O is being used, Cress can easily take a U-turn and then cripple whatever comes in (that can threaten it) for life. Reflect over Will-O-Wisp!

    • 252Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (Neutral) U-turn vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Cresselia (+Def): 27% - 33% (124 - 148 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    • 252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch in Sandstorm vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Cresselia under Reflect (+Def): 31% - 37% (140 - 168 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    • 252Atk Choice Scarf Tyranitar (Neutral) Crunch in Sandstorm vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Cresselia (+Def): 38% - 45% (170 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.



    So, I already VM'd MM and Gang4lf to ask if I can submit another set for Cresselia cause Reflect is not as good as WOW. I'm deleting the other one and posting this, if MM / gang4lf tell me that I can't do that I'm going to delete this post. Sorry to everyone, my complete fault.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    This U-turn Landorus-I is really hard to counter, damn :[

    Thinking a while and trying to find something that can take any of its attacks while not being weak to Stealth Rocks like Zapdos, Moltres, Gyarados or Rotom-Fan (lol) and not being killed easily by Scarf/Band Tyranitar, I thought about Cresselia.

    [​IMG]
    Cresselia @ Flame Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Psycho Shift
    - Sleep Talk
    - Ice Beam


    Don't call it gimmicky. It works wonders! Completely walls SF Lando and spreads burns to the possible Tyranitar trying to kill it. The pros that Rest has over Moonlight is the 100% HP recovery it carries instead of the 25% that ML has under Sand and the chance to pass the Sleep status to the opponent and waking up in the same turn!

    • 252Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (Neutral) U-turn vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Cresselia (+Def): 27% - 33% (124 - 148 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    • 252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch in Sandstorm vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Cresselia under Reflect (+Def): 31% - 37% (140 - 168 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    • 252Atk Choice Scarf Tyranitar (Neutral) Crunch in Sandstorm vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Cresselia (+Def): 38% - 45% (170 - 204 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
  20. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    556
    [​IMG]
    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 224 HP / 8 Atk / 216 Def / 60 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind
    - Brave Bird

    Last time around, and seemingly every time in this project, we wait until the end to choose hazards. I'd like to switch that up. Not only does Skarmory counter Landorus fairly effectively, it also uses the opportunity to set up some hazards and put some pressure on Team 1 from the get go to think about the sorts of Pokemon that they choose. Meanwhile, Brave Bird is selected over Taunt so that Skarmory can actually hit something if it is taunted or needs to attack. Last time around, the fact that Infernape could come in against Skarmory for free really hurt Team 2--with Sturdy and Brave Bird, this would not have been the case.

    The set is pretty standard except for the EVs--224 HP is chosen for the same reason as the analysis, to take advantage of Sturdy after two rounds of Leftovers recovery after switching into Stealth Rock. 216 Def EVs gives Skarmory the extra point. 60 EVs are put to Speed so that Skarmory can outrun 0-speed Heatran and beat the Taunt / Roar should it need to, and also allows it to out-speed any Jellicent or other similarly tiered Pokemon that normal run a bit of speed to creep on Skarmory. The last 8 EVs go to Attack just so it hits a bit harder, since STAB on 2 extra stat points is more helpful than 2 extra stat points in anything else, for my money.

    Basically, Team 1 has the option to counter hazards or pick Magnezone, in which case we can react accordingly. I'd like to see a team start with hazards in this project and see what could change. Skarmory, while not necessarily posing a "threat" to the other team in the traditional sense, can certainly kill what it needs to kill (fighting-types), phaze and spike, and serve as a strong physical wall, while simultaneously walling Landorus and using it as an opportunity to set up. It's not the fancy pick nor the creative pick that I'd normally nominate--but it works, and it's there for a reason. As we are able to pick a second Pokemon immediately after Skarmory, we can pick something that puts immediate pressure on Team 1. I'd rather do our utility now. We can get power from a lot more places than utility--and we can pick our power more effectively by knowing more about the other team's weaknesses.
  21. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    649
    How can Skarmory counter Lando-I?

    • 252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 224HP/0SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 82% - 97% (271 - 319 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
  22. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

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    Ok firstly, I don't like Rotom-W as a counter to Landorus-I. I have used U-Turn Landorus-I to great success, and its pretty simple to defeat with Landorus-I, you just spam U-Turn if you think its switching in (iirc it does around 30% but idr if thats factoring in SR or not) and then use Focus Blast when you can get the 2KO. Its pretty simple to get around, and as such I don't think its a great choice :/

    Gengar isn't a bad counter, I just don't like how much it opens Team 2 up to a Scarf Tar pick. Sure, "you can add a set up sweeper" to counter that, but then Team 1 counters that sweeper, and around and around it goes and at the end of the day you STILL don't have a proper Landorus-I check. I would much rather nip things firmly in the bud and pick Chesto Rest Gyarados, which provides offensive momentum (we can use a spinner of rocks are that much of a hassle) and is threatening to the possible Tyranitar pick. Is there any reason Intimidate instead of Moxie (I don't have a preference was just wondering).

    Cress set is ok I guess, I just think its very vulnerable to hard counterpicking, since it doesn't do that much else. Team #2 was put in this position in the first CtP when it picked a Celeb with Thunder Wave, which resulted in Team #1 picking up Thundurus which proved to threaten a lot of Team 2. Sure, the senarios here are slightly different, but sets such as what Cress is running can potentially be very risky (for example, a Heracross pick or something idk).
  23. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,012
    Yea.. not even a 252 Hp / 252 SpD Skarmory can take two focus blast securely, though focus blast is a sketchy accuracy move. Skarmory is hardly a counter it can easily be worn down
  24. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,012
    That's what I meant that not even specially defensive Skarmory can take two Focus Blast I was agreeing with your statement. lol
  25. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    649
    I guess that it is to be able to set up Ddances easier against physical attackers while taking less damage from U-turn :/

    I agree with you. The problem is that U-turn Lando is so hard to counter that we have to rely on dedicated walls like that Cresselia.

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