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Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Also, one thing to point out: there is basically no point in running speed "creep" unless it is to completely outspeed a thread. Why? Because Team 1 will always know just how much speed we're running and 0 Spe Heatran can easily turn into 4 Spe Heatran and therefore outrun the current Skarmory submission. An important element to speed creep is the surprise factor, and in a CtP, that is completely lost.

    Question? How much better would Skarmory fare against Landorus-I with a specially defensive set?
  2. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    It is almost the same. Lando strikes a 2HKO too.

    • 252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+SpDef): 54% - 64% (183 - 215 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
  3. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly

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    Seeing as it can't take 2 Focus Blast, I wouldn't consider it a reliable counter.
  4. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    I guess this is true, it can't exactly take Focus Blasts very well. Though it can come in and pretty much every other move without any problem. Plus the accuracy of Focus Blast isn't exactly... the most reliable. Fair points--I didn't realize it took so much damage there.

    However, the reason for speed is to FORCE other Pokemon to choose that speed. Skarmory doesn't really lose out on much by running speed instead of other stats, whereas many other Pokemon do. By forcing speed, we take away their other stats and can take advantage of those later.
  5. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    But, yeah, I think I'll end up submitting something different. That's way too much to take from Focus Blast and I had no idea it'd take so much. Jesus.
  6. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly

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    Ok, I'm not sure why you would want to speed creep a Heatran, hell Skarmory should never stay in on a Heatran; regardless, if it outpaces it. Also Jellicent can just scald and burn Skarmory making the speed creep rather pointless.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Or we can fill the team with faster Pokemon that can OHKO, slower Pokemon that can OHKO with priority, and slower Pokemon that can OHKO it and avoid the OHKO from it.
  8. Vemane

    Vemane

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    At this point definitely backing gengar (damn you for being so quick, neliel!) As mentioned by both her and alexwolf, It can not only take on lando quite well for such an offesnive poke, but it in itself is quite difficult to counter and manage while even providing spinblocking+fighting+ground+meh poison immunities if needed.
  9. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    The problem with slower pokemon that can OHKO it with priority is that they are not counters. Choosing a Mamoswine doesn't solve the problem of Lando-I, as Mamo can't switch into it, you have to bring it safely to force a switch out (and the process repeats)

    As for slower pokemons that can avoid a OHKO and OHKO Lando, that's not a good answer imo. In that case, Politoed could be a great option for Team 2, he can take an EP and then OHKO with surf.
  10. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    I was kind of thinking along these lines as well. Seeing as Team 1's current Landorus set lacks any way of boosting its speed, we could take advantage of its mediocre speed tier with one of the musketeers! Although it's far from a counter, as it'll take massive damage from a boosted Earth Power, it naturally outspeeds Landorus and provides a good source of offensive momentum (part of a balanced and nutritional breakfast).

    I'm proud to present... PONY!

    Keldeo-R @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Secret Sword
    - Icy Wind
    - Hidden Power [Ghost]

    The moveset is quite standard and so are the EVs, but the item could be changed to Expert Belt or something similar if the recoil from Life Orb provides too much of a hindrance. Hydro Pump is a good stab move that wrecks Landorus-I and Secret Sword provides good coverage and allows us to get past special walls. Surf could go over Hydro Pump for the accuracy though. Icy Wind allows us to hit Dragon-type Pokemon, and if Landorus-I decides to flee, we can use Icy Wind to cripple the incoming Pokemon with a Speed drop or simply kill Landorus-I should it decide to stay in (both Hydro Pump and Icy Wind are guaranteed OHKOs as long as we have an Expert Belt boost or more). Lastly, Hidden Power Ghost allows us to hit Jellicent and Celebi, though probably not very hard. It does prevent us from being completely walled however.
  11. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Can I ask why HP Ghost and not HP Electric? You don't have any chances to break through Celebi anyway (and you can use Icy Wind to hit it for some damage, altough I recognize it's much weaker), and Jellicent is hit as hard as with HP Ghost. In return, you gain the ability to OHKO non-defensive Gyarados, and a "solid" 2HKO on 252/0 Tentacruel outside rain, after SR (still 80% chance to 2HKO inside rain, if it's not running Protect). Both of those would otherwise kinda wall you, and even if they may be easy to wear down / take advantage of, the ability of just KOing them while losing practically nothing seems attractive to me.
  12. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    I would not use it because focus blast does really too much damages. Lets say we switch out rotom-w on landorus, it will lose half of his hp followed by a u-turn, which is pretty much an uneffective counter. If landorus then decides to do focus blast again and it miss.. who tell us that hydro pump wont do the same? What if we volt switch while it focus blast again? It will end up with a prediction game, which isnt really the best way to try to counter Landorus.
    Also, rotom-w has very little offensive presence to me, sure its volt switch is a bitch but overall it wont do anything else other than that.


    Starmie isnt the best here, Earth power easily kos and u-turn does around 50%, not definetely the pokemon we should chose to counter landorus. Sure it outspeed and ko it, and has an overall good offensive presence, but its koed by landorus's stab xd.
    Also, its not the time to chose the spinner imo, team 1 can just chose ferrothorn with sr+spikes and we are in trouble, or simply dont chose hazards at all if we chose a spinner.

    This is an overall great check to landorus, (even tho i would have used protect instead of something to increase its longevity) however this set is a setup fodder for almost any steel type... think about ferrothorn, scizor, heatran, etc. Water type pokemon with substitute also beats it easily, and the lack of recovery can be troublesome in the long run. Definetely not something i would chose.


    This is pretty much the same of Starmie - it outspeed an ko landorus but cant really switch in on its stab. I would honestly pick keldeo later with an another set depending on the other team.
  13. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    ^ You shoudnt criticize a nomination just because it can't switch all day on Landorus. Keldeo and Starmie are both legit, and who cares if Landorus can kill them because he's outsped. This is a really simple yet narrow-minded way to see a team building in my opinion, to only count on "checks" and "counters". If the team is filled with Keldeos and Starmies, Landorus is useless, period.
    At worst, the sole presence of Keldeo, will force for instance the Landorus user to spam Earth Power to not let the pony in. Having a threat like that isn't good for the other team. Although I agree that Keldeo is a kind of pokemon that I would prefer bringing later.
    I don't like the defensive nominations so far, like Bronzong but why not. I'm not sure about Gengar, it's not so good once the ennemy knows your set and it's the case here. So sure you can switch in, but if you get hit on the switch by HP Ice.. Pain Split puts you in a bad situation "Do I Pain Split this turn and take another possible HP Ice ? Do I attack and in the end just trade Gengar for Landorus ?". Because basically, many things can come on a Pain Split. And prediction asides, you should be doing Pain Split in this situation, unless Landorus is under ~75%.
    Not saying this is bad, just wondering if it would perform so well in a real fight, especially when you show your set to the world like that.


    Okay my nomination :

    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Life Orb
    Levitate
    72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Surf
    - Draco Meteor
    - Roost
    - Reflect Type

    Seems gimmick ? Well, in a way it is.
    So onto Latias in itself, it can take decently every Landorus could throw at it. I'm puzzled on the Spread and the item. I could go for something less offensive, but I would miss the OHKO after SR, and instead not be 2HKO'd.
    So, I know there is U-Turn. But we NEED to have a pokemon like Latias forcing Landorus to try to U-Turn on the switch. This way, we paralyse Landorus passively, by threatening him. I think that we should get something like 3 pokemons to outspeed him, to not let him come free. And anyway, the first picks rarely switch easily because every single future nomination (but the last ones maybe) will make sure they beat Landorus. So don't come with a "Latias won't be able to switch in so much, it can take an U-Turn etc", seriously, Landorus won't be switching in for free, it will come after a death at worst. So Latias beats him 1v1, can switch in on most of his moves and that's all we need at this point.
    On top of that, Latias is the pokemon that you want to have in a team considering how many weaknesses it fixes by its sole presence. The defensive typing is cool, the speed is cool, the recovery is cool..
    For the last moves, I was thinking about Healing Wish because it's insanely powerful and makes sure Latias will be useful even trapped (and it makes it so hard to counter future picks, since they can be totally healed), but Reflect Type is a really interesting ability. I would love to see some building around it, see how the ennemy team will react to that etc... It would bring another dimension to the building.
  14. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    [​IMG]
    Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248Hp / 112Def / 148 Sdef
    Nature: Careful (+Sdef, Satt)
    Waterfall
    Dragon Tail
    Thunder Wave
    Subsitute

    Now this poke I know cherub's agent already but this poke is way more bulky for the price of speed, sweeping and more attack. However this poke gains a lot more utility instead. T-wave can cripple a lot of offensive pokes. It's subs can't even be broken by focus miss, it's its most powerful move against it, so it therefore can setup a sub then phaze and paralyse everything and cause a lot of damage in return. Rotom-W commonly gets walled if it only carries volt switch and it almost always does as we can sub before it comes in. We can also pick a poke like donphan who shares great synergy and spins or a Landorus of our own to take electric types. Utility is the most important thing in this project and this offers us two bits and offers us a more bulky one which punishes team 1 bringing Landorus in. It is also surprisingly hard to counter for a defensive poke due to dragon tail and thunder wave. This is chosen over rest talk as a poke is easy to counter when asleep and it doesn't have t-wave or something to do against a switch.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    The point is that Landorus won't get the chance to force anything out, meaning that we won't have to pick a safe switchg-in to it. Just a random example but say we have this team:

    LO Gengar
    LO Mamoswine
    EB Keldeo
    Choice Scarf Salamence
    Fast Pivot Rotom-W
    LO Starmie

    As you see i chose Pokemon faster than Landorus that can OHKO it, slower Pokemon that can OHKO it with priority, and slower Pokemon that can take a hit from it. Nothing on the team gets forced out by Lando and thus we don't really need a safe switch-in to it. The team was just a random example so don't get stuck to it, i am sure we can make a perfectly good team while not giving any chance to Landorus to force us out.
  16. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

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    I think the Gyrados picks are the best. They resist Lando's coverage moves and are immune to its main STAB. I feel that Cherub Agent's Gyrados is the better of the two Gyrados submissions so far, as it provides t2 with offensive momentum and can set up on defensive mons, making it a huge threat IMO.

    Dragontamer74pe's Gyrados deals with switch ins better, as it can spread paralysis while still dealing with Lando extremely well. However, I'm unsure as to wether it can switch in on Lando without taking significant damage.
  17. relaunched

    relaunched

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    So in this pick we really would like to choose a Pokemon which:

    a) Performs favorably against Pokemon 1. As a rule of thumb, it should be able to win a head-to-head matchup most of the time. Being able to force out Pokemon 1 and do something with that time is ideal.
    b) Is a good choice against the rest of the metagame.

    Somehow we have to balance these factors. The second is the most important but not hard to fulfill in itself. I think the second eliminates choices like Leftovers Starmie and SpD Rotom-W. While these are really good pokes, they are good thanks to their utility, not their dominance over the field of possible picks. This makes them conditionally great late picks and poor early picks.

    Latias and Keldeo are great examples of b), and decent examples of a). In the case of such a powerful obstacle as Landorus, ability to handle at least a few of his moves is quite good for an offensive poke, keeping in mind these words:

    Our standards can't be too high. Defensively, Cresselia is also quite good at a) and b). It's biggest problem in b) is its friendliness to set-up sweepers.

    Looking at more offensive choices, Gengar and ChestoRest Gyarados are quite good at a), but Gyarados really suffers with b). There are plenty of switch-ins to Gyarados's mediocre coverage, some of which can freely set up on it. Gengar isn't my favorite pick because it is so frail, and while it hits hard, it doesn't hit for long.

    Given all this, I'm a fan of Latias as a first pick. It is good enough defensively to hold off Landorus, and has redeeming traits both offensively and defensively against the rest of the metagame. Though, Remedy, could you explain why we would want to use Reflect Type?
  18. ginganinja

    ginganinja Call me and I'll come
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    At a guess its to shut down Tyranitar, since you can Reflect Type the Tyranitar switch, to resist Pursuit, ergo you can switch out safely. Its a nice plan I guess. it just loses to Scarf Tar (like Gengar). Chesto Rest Gyarados is still my favourite choice atm (since I really want a non Pursuit weak answer) so yea.
  19. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    Okay, the point was to bring some discussion around it, and make the project more interesting.
    Let's see the weaknesses of Latias :
    Bug / Dark / Ice / Dragon / Ghost

    - Bug : Scizor. This is the Bug pokemon, he can be 2HKO'd by Surf after SR. However, if you misspredict or Roost.. You're still totally safe. Now imagine a Latias with Bug/Steel typing. Reflect Type Latias doesn't give a single duck about any of Scizor's version. And Scizor, as I nominated him, is in my opinion a real threat given his pivoting skills and his ideal typing.

    - Dark. This is the main issue of Latias. Tyranitar can be handled by Reflect Type in my opinion. He can lock himself into Superpower, but this leaves so big of a room for future sweepers, that it's not so bad for us. On top of that, if you hit Tyranitar on the switch with Surf, there is a good chance to 2HKO the bulky CB after SR. Weavile is another threat, but to me, the Latias team can take advantage of him pretty easily. On top of that, Gyarados is great against both Weavile and Landorus, so it would a good pick later on.

    - Ice. Ice users are rare, Surf kills Mamoswine so w/e.

    - Dragons. Outsped and killed.

    - Ghost. Gengar won't be safe, I don't see people cashing on a speed tie in this project. Jellicent is begging for a set-up and isn't an offensive threat.

    The thing that I love about Reflect Type, is that every future pick coming from the opposite team will have to answer to that question :
    " What if Latias reflect type me ?"
    This reverses the whole team building, and makes the future picks interesting because their own typing can be used against them. What is important in this project is the typing. Because in the end, a team will pick a sweeper with a perfect coverage , think about Nape from last CTP with 4 SE moves. Then, imagine that Latias steals an enemy's typing ? It is much harder now to build an ideal sweeper like Nape because poof! now Latias is Fire/Fighting, takes nothing from U-Turn, and can wall effectively the sweepers that were supposed to crush her.

    If people don't like this idea, I can understand it, then just say it and I change Reflect Type to Healing Wish. To be honest I just wanted some discussion about this silly idea.

    EDIT : Ferrothorn is one of the few pokemons able to resist Water/Dragon coverage. Guess what, Reflect Type makes sure that you beat him 1V1 :naughty:
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    You don't use neither Pain Split nor Shadow Ball if Landorus hits you on the switch with HP Ice. You use Substitute. If Landorus switches out you have a Gengar with ~25% health ready to safely use Pain Split on whatever came in and heal back to good health while heavily damaging the opponent. If Landorus stays in, then it breaks the Sub with HP Ice and is at 68% life (two LO rounds and SR), so you can kill it the next turn with Shadow Ball, which does 72% min.

    As for your nomination, i like it! In general i am a big fun of both Reflect Type Starmie and Reflect Type Latias, as giving the middle finger to your counters is simply that good. Also as you said your set brings a lot of interesting possibilities and things to talk about, so it's my second favorite choice after LO Gengar!
  21. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
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    Okay for the Substitute, I get the idea. The thing that bothers me is that if he keeps hitting you, you'll end up having ~15 % right (he's at 68% and you're at 25% naked, then you kill him,) ? Gengar takes 48% on average from HP Ice, so let's say you take SR, 88%, then HP Ice, 40%, and then you Sub, 15%. So, "on average", you'll be more around 5% after the trade with Landorus. This is perfect for Pain Split, but the ennemy team won't let you do that. I think that a max roll on the first HP Ice leaves you 1%. Phew.
    Well, you beat him reliably, but it will require a totally healthy Gengar, thus totally focused on Landorus. Still that's the momentum in theory.

    A scarf user of Dual Chop or anything like that faster than LO Gengar, would make this situation a bit more complicated though.
  22. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    I dont randomly criticize other sets. I just think its better for us to chose one hard counter as the first pick just to be sure we have something to switch in on landorus. Sure we can fill in the team with things that kos and outspeed landorus, but we are not sure we can do it.. lets say we are forced to pick an heatran and we need a switch in for landorus, what can we do? send starmie and lose? Im not opposed to things that outspeeds and kills landorus, but we have to do it later. We now need the most efficent counter for landorus. You also said that defensive pokemon are not good now, as well as keldeo, so you have the same ideas like me.

    About your submission, latias is somewhat good so yeah... i just think that you dont need reflect type. The only things its usefull for are Tyranitar, scizor and Ferrothorn. As for ferrothorn it doesnt change anything because it will just setup spikes and we cant touch it. Cb scizor as you said is 2koed by surf so you dont need it anyway. As for ttar, if we are going to chose it, it will probably have crunch/superpower and pursuit without a choice item (or just a scarf), so it will be a prediction game just like with gengar. Will tyranitar crunch while i reflect its type? Will tyranitar pursuit while i switchout? what if i reflect its type and he goes for superpower? Generally, Latias is a more usefull pokemon in this metagame than gengar, but it doesnt help in any way getting past of scizor/ttar and the likes. To me the fact that its going to take approximately 50% by u-turn is a reason enough to not use it... It true that latias can win the 1 vs 1 against landorus, but the other team can simply switch out to a pursuit pokemon/something that checks latias and we will lose momentum/lose our check to landorus.
    With this said, i honestly think we should just use latios (which allow us to 2ko cb tyranitar with surf, while latias cant do it) with hidden power fire over reflect type, to be sure they dont chose sp def scizor/ferrothorn other steel types to stop us.

    EDIT: ok i now read why you want reflect type, it isnt a bad idea afterall but you have to keep in mind that:
    1) you will lose your stab
    2) the opponent can troll you with his own typing (just think about non-choiced tyranitar with superpower)
    3) if we chose it, we will be careful to not chose interesting typings (like, ferrothorn maybe?) to turn latias into a great wall or something, so its not that easy to take advantage of this move.


    And just to responde to this, while landorus keeps hitting us it is taking damages from life orb, and we are basically forcing it to use two moves for the entire game, because if it does earth power/focus blast and we send out gengar the opponent will have a lot of problem against gengar.
    We can also send out a keldeo for example knowing it will only use hp ice or u-turn, so gengar not only reliably beats it but also forces the opponent to predict, and we can take advantage of this with keldeo but also a lot of other stuff. Too much theorymon but whatever xd
  23. dragontamer74pe

    dragontamer74pe

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    It takes less than sub damage from focus miss, hp ice and u-turn so it's only real worry is rocks. This is the same for the other gyarados and a sweeping gyarados can easily get countered by rotom-w while a bulky gyarados can paralyse and phaze it's counters. This would also mean that if a rotom-w wants to break a sub we get a free paralyse on whatever and then maybe another sub.

    This poke also beats lucario, Landorus-T and loads of others while taking a banded terrakions stone edge after intimidate (providing no rocks) most of the time and paralysing it with t-wave. As Remedy has said utility is very important at this stage so that pokes don't end up being useless while gyarados provides 2 types.
  24. Vemane

    Vemane

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    Would not subdisable gengar be better for serving as the best counter for landorus, while also being a great utility mon against a huge amount of threats? While subsplit does increase longevity, sub disable can completely shut lando down (as well as terrakion, choiced pokes, etc.) and lower the amount of needed prediction by quite a bit in the sense that the opponent has the ability to stop subsplit gengar from splitting successfully, but the gengar user holds the pressure when given the choice to disable or hit the switch in.
  25. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent how lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf
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    My Gyarados realy doesnt fear Stealth Rock as much as you make it seem. Instant one turn recovery really is quite useful at keeping Gyarados healthy, especially if its packed with a spinner. that said, its rather easy for team 1 to select a scarfer than can outspeed Gyara, even at +2, and it's true as well that Gyarados fears Rotom. however, those threats, and especially scarfers, can be dealth with by pokemon such as wobbuffet, so its certainly not alost cause, the gyarados just needs good support to sweep. i must also admit that the majority of my sets success relies on surprise value, as opponents often toxic it and then just let it set up DDs, which cannot be done when the opposing team knows team 2. make of it what you will, i'm just giving an honest and hopefully unbiased opinion on my set.

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