Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

[futuresuperstar]

i can live with 32 speed evs, even though practically nobody runs max speed tyranitar anymore. i keep forgetting this is an open environment where evs are visible, so preparing for anything is probably a good idea (except now you can assume team 1 won't run max speed ttar because we're prepping it out, lol). i'm not going with 248 hp over 252 because if zapdos is chosen the team's going to have a way to handle stealth rock, and i much prefer getting 1 extra hp of leftovers per turn and losing an extra 1 hp to rocks than the other way around. maximum recovery is key on zapdos since landorus can come close to a 3hko with max rolls on hp ice.

Fair enough! Definitely do the 32 Speed EVs, though.

 

[kakuna]

I think one thing we definitely have to take into account is that we do not pick a psychic type. If we pick a psychic type the perfect counter will be tyranitar which can be U-turned into. If we do pick a psychic type then we need to make sure they carry some special attack and focus blast for tyranitar! Right now I think that suggestions virizion and zapdos are the best choices. However I have an idea which is pretty random but actually hard to counter.

Milotic@ Leftovers
Trait: Marvel Scale
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
~ Scald
~ Recover
~ Ice Beam
~ Toxic
Specially defensive milotic does not die easily. With this spread the landorus can never 2HKO it if it switches into two layers of spikes. Milotic is unique as a defensive pokemon because of marvel scale. If you want to toxic milotic that is your own dumb choice. At that point he is literally invincible. Scald and ice beam provide a solid STAB and a good method of hitting grass and dragon types. Toxic screws over latias and rotom-w. They don't neccesarily exist in this team but for general OU. In order to counter milotic you have to use a bulky water type that doesn't mind toxic or a grass type that doesn't mind scald. Counter is a word that shouldn't be used too much as milotic can often just toxic them on the switch in. Overall Milotic is very fashiony and hard to beat. Very underrated and can sort of 6-0 rain teams.

 

[Hypercut]

My mindset still stands, there are better options then a 50/50 chance playing mind games with a crucial counter/check to one of the most potent sweepers in the meta game at the moment.

You talked about you, but I was referring to players in general, there is always a chance of 50-50 that:

- He hold Landorus on the field and die with Hidden Power Ice
- He switch, but I can always predict it so I can dance and sweep, but it's still a 50-50, as is the predict / mindgame.

I know that it's one of the most powerful sweeper in the metagame, but these are the options, no other way.

By the way, I want also suggest this:

Jellicent (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Scald

Ok, this is a full SpDefensive version of Jellicent. Landorus can't do much, Earth Power do a damage range from 33 to 39%, and U-Turn do from 11 to 15%. What it means? If Landorus will stand on the field, it's OHKOed by Ice Beam, Scald do from 63 to 75%. Also, Jellicent is immune from Focus Blast and resist from Hidden Power Ice. Not much to say, SpDefensive Jellicent is one of the best choice imo against Landorus.

 

[TyranitarAbuser]

Itachi, I can't see Jellicent performing very well against Tyranitar, which deals massive damage with Pursuit.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 590-696 (146.03 - 172.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stone Edge: 91.33 - 107.67%
Crunch: 146.03 - 172.27%
Pursuit: 73.26 - 86.63%

Pursuit murders you when you switch out.

4 Atk Tyranitar (OU Support) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 300-354 (74.25 - 87.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pursuit: 37.62 - 44.55%
Crunch: 74.25 - 87.62%
Fire Blast: 7.17 - 8.41%

Massive damage is still done


Jellicent does:

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD CB Tyranitar: 152-180 (39.37 - 46.63%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scarf Tyranitar: 152-180 (44.44 - 52.63%) -- 18.75% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Support Tyranitar: 110-132 (27.22 - 32.67%) -- possible 4HKO

 

[Neliel]

To be honest both of these suggestions are good checks to landorus, but at the same point are not very difficult to counter, their offensive presence is really low considering they both relies on scald and ice beam to damage everything, and the opponent has a lot of options to take advantage of milotic or jellicent. Lets say they pick a substitute user like keldeo, and we cant do anything to it. They are also massive setup bait of eletric types and grass types, like breloom for example, which can take an ice beam if needed and ko back both.

 

[dragontamer74pe]

Overall these pokes counter Landorus yes but most can't do much to the other pokes in the metagame. Half the pokes take huge damage if the Landorus user predicts the switch in (ruling out u-turn cause that's really hard to counter) and then can't switch in again. Normally rotom-W would be a good pick but it can't try and grab momentum or Landorus has a easy time against the team by just predicting well. Imo sweaters don't work well at this stage either as it wont be hard to counter it with a later picked poke. Utility is the most important thing in this project for the early picks and IMO my gyarados and remedy's latias does that best. They can also switch in a lot and have bulk and utility.

Does anyone else think I should replace dragon tail with eq, stone miss or roar?

 

[Hypercut]

Itachi, I can't see Jellicent performing very well against Tyranitar, which deals massive damage with Pursuit.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 590-696 (146.03 - 172.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stone Edge: 91.33 - 107.67%
Crunch: 146.03 - 172.27%
Pursuit: 73.26 - 86.63%

Pursuit murders you when you switch out.

4 Atk Tyranitar (OU Support) Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 300-354 (74.25 - 87.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pursuit: 37.62 - 44.55%
Crunch: 74.25 - 87.62%
Fire Blast: 7.17 - 8.41%

Massive damage is still done


Jellicent does:

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD CB Tyranitar: 152-180 (39.37 - 46.63%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scarf Tyranitar: 152-180 (44.44 - 52.63%) -- 18.75% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Support Tyranitar: 110-132 (27.22 - 32.67%) -- possible 4HKO

Yes, I Agree with all you have posted, because Scarftar also murder Gengar/Latios/Latias or something, but if They take CBTar or Scarftar, They can use the Dark move lock for boosting or something. For example, if CBTar/Scarftar is locked on Pursuit/Crunch, They can send Lucario/Virizion/Terrakion and boost, because in that moment, Ttar is statup field. Also, It can burn Ttar when he switch, because Scald has high burn ratio.

 

[LilOu]

Yes, I Agree with all you have posted, because Scarftar also murder Gengar/Latios/Latias or something, but if They take CBTar or Scarftar, They can use the Dark move lock for boosting or something. For example, if CBTar/Scarftar is locked on Pursuit/Crunch, They can send Lucario/Virizion/Terrakion and boost, because in that moment, Ttar is statup field. Also, It can burn Ttar when he switch, because Scald has high burn ratio.

You send in Lucario on the locked Tyranitar to use SD or something after you sac'd Jellicent, then, team 1 sends in the appropiate Lucario counter (i.e Gliscor) and you can't touch it because it rund enough spe evs to outspeed adamant lucario. So you have to switch out and you lost your lando'si main answer (who was jelli)

It is not that easy. We need something that can deal with both Ttar and Lando. Thats why I suggested that weird cress with psycho shift.

 

[Hypercut]

You send in Lucario on the locked Tyranitar to use SD or something after you sac'd Jellicent, then, team 1 sends in the appropiate Lucario counter (i.e Gliscor) and you can't touch it because it rund enough spe evs to outspeed adamant lucario. So you have to switch out and you lost your lando i main answer (whoch was jelli)

It is not that easy. We need something that can deal with both Ttar and Lando. Thats why I suggested that weird cress with psycho shift.

I know that it's not that easy, and that's why i suggested Virizion first, that ruin both Tyranitar and Landorus.

 

[Neliel]

just want to point out that team 1 probably wont chose gliscor because it already has landorus, yes maybe we can but the sinergy of the team will be ruined. Landorus itself can take an espeed even with sr up if needed btw :/
i'd prefer terrakion as a boosting pokemon to take advantage of pursuit.

 

[LilOu]

Neliel, it was just sn example. A counter could be Jellicent if the Lucario is not using Crunch, or even Gengar if there is no bullet punch.

 

[Neliel]

i know, i was just saying maybe lucario isnt the best choice here because landorus itself can check it, but terrakion/breloom ect works better.

 

[Hypercut]

But i don't want to consider only Lucario, it was an example as statupper on locked Dark move, obviously Terrakion works better.

 

[dragontamer74pe]

Yeah but it remains the same. It doesn't matter what the poke is. We'll counter/check it and you're Terrakion that sets up but we have a banded scizor who can eat a +0 cc and bp easily kos. Yes you can with some prediction then ko scizor but we most likely wont give you another turn to setup. Cresselia and gyarados can both don't insta die against it. Scizor is another poke that can pursuit but doesn't beat jelli so it's not as good. The problem with cresselia is it is setup for so much like sub calm mind jirachi, taunt+dd gyarados, sub sd Terrakion and Sd lum scizor. I'm pretty sure the t-tar will run max speed to outspeed cress if we do choose that. Gyarados counters pretty much every pursuiter and can do ok against t-tar. For all the volcarona chat guess who else gyarados counters. Remedy's latias unfortunately gets beat by scarf t-tar with pursuit crunch and superpower (the standard). I'd prefer utility over sweepers and rotom-W easily stops gyarados while maintaining momentum. However with sub rotom-W will switch if it breaks the sub and we can paralyse the switchin. This is why I believe my pick is the best. Also don't look at how a poke can setup if we sac our Landorus counter because then we sac a poke and check that poke or play risky and try and force the poke out with our check. Team 2 loses the Landorus counter and team 1 has (maybe) lost a death fodder. Who's got the advantage?

 

[MMII]

Why do we keep worrying about defensive picks, especially ones that are Pursuit and/or U-Turn weak? There's quite a few solid suggestions that counter Landorus-I while putting offensive pressure on the other team. I want to bring them all up as I think the vote should really come down to picking out of this group. (which is actually quite large)

ChestoRest Gyarados

Gyarados @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 204 Spd / 104 Atk / 200 HP
Adamant Nature
- Bounce
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Rest

Pros:
-Hits hard and can actually set up a sweep
-Rest makes it more durable and allows it serve as a counter multiple times

Cons:
-Is SR weak
-Rest is a poor recovery option
-Quite slow

(I mention this Gdos over the other one because this one can heal itself while packing more punch)

CB Heracross

Heracross (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Stone Edge
- Return

Pros:
-Hits like a truck
-Holy Cow look at that Swarm boosted Megahorn
-Not SR weak

Cons:
-Choice locked so more prediction based
-Slow
-No recovery and still kinda fragile so not a long term response

Togekiss

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Calm Nature
- Body Slam
- Air Slash
- Aura Sphere
- Roost

Pros:
-Reliable recovery
-Doesn't hit too hard but hax and paraspread helps make up for this (needs to tweak the EV spread though. Calm plus 4 Atk EVS?)

Cons:
-SR weak
-Relies on hax to deal significant damage

Zapdos

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 226 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Roost

Pros:
-Has reliable recovery
-Fastest option here
-Strong SpAtk stat
-Pivots

Cons:
-SR weak

I didn't mention Virizion because I don't like the SD set but a CM set can work and would be worth consideration as it's fast, SR resistant, gains SpDef boosts and can heal with Giga Drain. Sadly, it has a low damage output despite boosts and/or LO.

To be perfectly honest, Zapdos is probably my favorite choice here. Not only does it pack nice coverage and solid base SpAtk but it can PIVOT. This is pretty big in this project as it'll let you scout a switch keep momentum. Unlike Lando-I, it won't bite into its own HP with LO recoil and has Roost to keep it healthy in spite of SR. Obviously, being SR weak does hurt its overall pivoting and it doesn't really hit THAT hard so a few things can take advantage of it (like a Latios). It is sure to be around for a while though and provides some important support for the team.

Gengar would be a really cool option but sadly it would be far too easy for the other team to slap a ScarfTar on their team and force us to pick another counter. Same song for other cool picks like Latias. (remember Lando has U-Turn so even a Focus Blast/Reflect Type won't save us)

 

[alexwolf]

Gengar would be a really cool option but sadly it would be far too easy for the other team to slap a ScarfTar on their team and force us to pick another counter. Same song for other cool picks like Latias. (remember Lando has U-Turn so even a Focus Blast/Reflect Type won't save us)

The fact that ScarfTar is set-up bait after using Pursuit shouldn't be ignored. Team 2 could easily pick a sweeper that can greatly threaten team 1 as its last pick, forcing team 1 to pick a counter to it as its last pick, which might not fit well with the rest of team, thus disrupting the overall synergy of the team.

But i agree with you that Volt Switch Zapdos is one of the best submissions so far, actually my 2nd favorite after Gengar.

 

[Neliel]

Why do we keep worrying about defensive picks, especially ones that are Pursuit and/or U-Turn weak? There's quite a few solid suggestions that counter Landorus-I while putting offensive pressure on the other team. I want to bring them all up as I think the vote should really come down to picking out of this group. (which is actually quite large)

ChestoRest Gyarados

Pros:
-Hits hard and can actually set up a sweep
-Rest makes it more durable and allows it serve as a counter multiple times

Cons:
-Is SR weak
-Rest is a poor recovery option
-Quite slow

(I mention this Gdos over the other one because this one can heal itself while packing more punch)

CB Heracross

Pros:
-Hits like a truck
-Holy Cow look at that Swarm boosted Megahorn
-Not SR weak

Cons:
-Choice locked so more prediction based
-Slow
-No recovery and still kinda fragile so not a long term response

Togekiss

Pros:
-Reliable recovery
-Doesn't hit too hard but hax and paraspread helps make up for this (needs to tweak the EV spread though. Calm plus 4 Atk EVS?)

Cons:
-SR weak
-Relies on hax to deal significant damage

Zapdos

Pros:
-Has reliable recovery
-Fastest option here
-Strong SpAtk stat
-Pivots

Cons:
-SR weak

I didn't mention Virizion because I don't like the SD set but a CM set can work and would be worth consideration as it's fast, SR resistant, gains SpDef boosts and can heal with Giga Drain. Sadly, it has a low damage output despite boosts and/or LO.

To be perfectly honest, Zapdos is probably my favorite choice here. Not only does it pack nice coverage and solid base SpAtk but it can PIVOT. This is pretty big in this project as it'll let you scout a switch keep momentum. Unlike Lando-I, it won't bite into its own HP with LO recoil and has Roost to keep it healthy in spite of SR. Obviously, being SR weak does hurt its overall pivoting and it doesn't really hit THAT hard so a few things can take advantage of it (like a Latios). It is sure to be around for a while though and provides some important support for the team.

Gengar would be a really cool option but sadly it would be far too easy for the other team to slap a ScarfTar on their team and force us to pick another counter. Same song for other cool picks like Latias. (remember Lando has U-Turn so even a Focus Blast/Reflect Type won't save us)

Dont really agree with you here, at least not with everything. So, gyarados seems cool because it force landorus to use 2 moves basically, but it has serious flaws that does not make it worth it. First, you say that scarf tyranitar ruins gengar and latias... ok then what stop us to chose rotom-w then? Landorus will u-turn on it, maybe with sr up, rotom-w switch ins and.. you switch again?

As for Cb heracross my feelings are the same as before. I would say that they counter each others rather than heracross countering landorus, because as you know landorus can actually switch in on heracross stabs, forcing it to switch. There is a reason why gliscor was considered one of the best counter for heracross, which is his typing. Really relying on stone edge and return to beat it its very bad (if you dont consider its slow, so lando can epower+u-turn) and it can be setup bait for a lot of stuff.

I have mixed feelings about togekiss, its cool and all but.. it just doesnt hit hard. Hits a nice check to lando and it should be fun to hax people, but really i can see togekiss being setup fodder for everything in this meta. Not completely against it tho.

As for zapdos, which is nice, enough difficult to check with the always good volt switch, i think it only has one flaw:

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Zapdos: 146-172 (38.02 - 44.79%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Just saying, this can be sad if it happens. if we choose zappy we have to be sure to spin stealth rocks (and honestly i have this feel to both togekiss and gyarados, with stealth rock up they are easy to beat)

 

[MMII]

Problem is that the CtP is so different from real OU. Scarf Pursuit would definitely be something you can take advantage of in real OU but in the CtP it just won't happen because the other team knows exactly what you plan to abuse it with and will just pack a counter. Seeing as you'll only have one free pursuit opportunity to set up this doesn't really help much as it'll be too easy to force out the threat. One free turn just isn't enough here, not this early in the project.

Edit: The difference between a U-Turn switch to ScarfTar and U-Turn switch to Rotom is that ScarfTar traps. This is gg for Gengar who can't do anything about it whereas Gdos can still switch out. Yes, it takes SR damage but SR plus LO recoil for Lando is 22.5%ish so things are more or less even...until Gdos Rests. The Zapdos calc worries me, though, I misunderstood Lavos's post. Zapdos may not actually be the best pick here.
(As for Heracross, there is still prediction that comes into play (although that goes both ways) and when Swarm is activated Megahorn is pretty much the safe move to make. I agree with the flaws though which is why I listed them in the cons.)

Togekiss is starting to look more appealing. If we could move that Atk EV to Spatk, it'll be a solid pick. IDK how it could be setup fodder as Body Slam para hax will cripple anything that tries to boost on it. (and Heat Wave/Aura Sphere roasts/busts Spikers)


It's true, though, that smart U-Turning will prevent the Flying types from ever healing so that the next time Lando shows up they can't wall it. Somebody post a CM Virizion set, quick! This may help us.

 

[Cherub Agent]

yeah, i agree. a lucario or a terrakion or w/e can have a free setup turn, but really what is stopping you from packing a gliscor/terrakion/jellicent/scarftar/slowbro w/e based on lukes set to stop it from sweeping, or like a CB scizor/breloom/gliscor that can stop a terrakion sweep?

i agree with melee_mewtwo, saying that giving a mon a chance to set up on pursuit then sweep will simply not work in this project, especially considering we're right at the beginning

 

[alexwolf]

Cherub Agent and Melee Mewtwo, read my last post again and you will see what is stopping ScarfTar from freely trapping Gengar. If team 2 chooses as their last pick a sweeper that can sweep team 1 if given one set-up chance (a chance which will be given by Pursuit-locked Tyranitar), team 1 will be forced to pick a counter to this threat, which not only may not fit with the rest of the team well, but will also prevent team 1 from going for an offensive Pokemon that threatens the whole team 2, as it happens usually in this project, thus mitigating the benefit of the last pick that team 1 usually has. This project is all about limiting choices, and if we force team 1 to pick ScarfTar if they want their Landorus to be of any significance to the game, then we have already reached our goal.

 

[ganj4lF]

Alright, I'm glad of the amount of constructive discussion we're getting, sorry for not being able to participate much but these days are really busy for me. Anyway, let's go straight into voting for the first pokemon of Team 2! Here's the slate.

• ChestoRest Gyarados
• SubSplit Gengar
• ChestoRest Rotom-W
• Starmie
• Bronzong
• Psycho Shift Cresselia
• Skarmory
• Keldeo
• Reflect Type Latias
• Bulky Gyarados
• CB Heracross
• Virizion
• Thunder Wave Cresselia
• Blissey
• Togekiss
• Gastrodon
• Zapdos
• Milotic
• Jellicent

To vote, just send a PM to Melee Mewtwo; write in both title and body of the message "CtP: your preference" where your preference is obviously selected from the previous list. We will wait 48 hours for votes to be cast this time, since the last time we got more submissions than votes, and I'm hoping to get a little more participation to the voting phase. A longer voting phase could help I guess, although we can adjust the duration if it's too long for you or whatever concern you may have.

Again, please do not edit your submission after this post, and do not vote multiple times; your vote cannot be changed and only the first one will be counted. Feel free to continue discussing in this thread if you have any additional argument while the voting phase continues.

 

[Memphis Grizzly]

I would rather see Gyarados over Zapdos, yea they are both Stealth Rock weak, only difference is Gyarados takes neutral damage from Hidden Power Ice. It also has a more flexible ability in Intimidate.

 

[MMII]

The thing is that a lot of things can limit options in this project, taking advantage of free turns is what just about every member is expected to do. The problem is that we are throwing out our only counter and a team member just to buy a one time ticket for free setup. This won't go far enough to prevent Landorus from putting us in a tight spot later. We need to get an actual counter to him if we don't want Team 2 to be feeling all the pressure in its picks.

 

[Neliel]

Edit: The difference between a U-Turn switch to ScarfTar and U-Turn switch to Rotom is that ScarfTar traps. This is gg for Gengar who can't do anything about it whereas Gdos can still switch out. Yes, it takes SR damage but SR plus LO recoil for Lando is 22.5%ish so things are more or less even...until Gdos Rests. The Zapdos calc worries me, though, I misunderstood Lavos's post. Zapdos may not actually be the best pick here.
(As for Heracross, there is still prediction that comes into play (although that goes both ways) and when Swarm is activated Megahorn is pretty much the safe move to make. I agree with the flaws though which is why I listed them in the cons.)

Togekiss is starting to look more appealing. If we could move that Atk EV to Spatk, it'll be a solid pick. IDK how it could be setup fodder as Body Slam para hax will cripple anything that tries to boost on it. (and Heat Wave/Aura Sphere roasts/busts Spikers)


It's true, though, that smart U-Turning will prevent the Flying types from ever healing so that the next time Lando shows up they can't wall it. Somebody post a CM Virizion set, quick! This may help us.

Okei but you have to admin that trapping gengar or forcing gyarados to always switch its almost the same, also gothitelle actually exists and we can easily chose it if needed.
And yeah the problem i see with all those 3 pokemon is its weakness to stealth rock, easy to exploite if they chose the stealth rocker late, where we probably cant chose spinners any more.

 

[MMII]

It may be similar but at least they can do a bit more than just throwing their life to block Lando once like Gengar would. We'll have to focus on winning the hazards game but at least we have an option and a possibility for things to work out.