Gen 6 Counter That Uber Pokemon! (Round 3 Nomination Stage)

[Tomahawk]

Counter That Uber Pokemon!
approved by Melee Mewtwo

Hi there! Counter That Uber Pokemon is a project that was hosted by Furai last generation, and the OU version is currently being hosted by Halcyon. in the OU subforum (whom I stole most of this OP from), and it only makes sense for us to do another Uber version now that this new generation is upon us. If you're new to this Project, the rules are like this:


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How it works

This project will focus on the construction of two separate teams, both bent on completely countering the other. The way this will be done is simple. Each team will pick a Pokemon one at a time alternating as follows: Team 1 picks, then Team 2 picks, then Team 2 picks, then Team 1 picks, then team 1 again, and so on until both teams have six Pokemon. At the beginning of every round, the Pokemon you pick should be one that does its best to counter the Pokemon (that’s plural btw!) that the other team picked in the previous rounds. This takes considerable amounts of team building skills, as it is important to simultaneously pick Pokemon that can counter whatever the opposing team picks while still trying to maintain synergy and prevent the other team from picking effective counters themselves. NOTE WHEN I SAY TEAM 1 AND TEAM 2, I MEAN THE POKEMON TEAMS. PEOPLE PARTICIPATING IN THIS PROJECT WILL BE ABLE TO DO SO FOR BOTH TEAMS.

Each round will have two periods: a nomination period and a voting period. During the nomination period, new users as well as veterans can nominate whatever Pokemon they feel will best suit the team relative to the opposing team (for the first round, it will just be a Pokemon that Team 1 will want to build around). I encourage people to discuss the different nominations during this time. After all, if we don’t have solid discussions about which Pokemon is best suited for the team, it will be very difficult to pick the best choice. After a few days of nominations, the voting period will begin. Voting will last two days, after which the following round will begin. Only those with a post count greater than or equal to 50 will be allowed to vote. This may seem “elitist” or unfair to newer users, but it is only a measure to prevent people from making alternate accounts or getting their friends to sign up just to vote for their Pokemon (this is not me being paranoid, we actually had this happen last generation).

Once the two teams have been created, I will elect two battlers to have the teams combat each other in a best of three series to see which team has truly countered the other!

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Rules

Nominations must be serious in nature. I don’t to see anyone making fake nominations for teams built around Beedrill or anything of the sort. That being said, if you want to use an underrated Pokemon or one that may be considered “bad” in normal play, yet does a good job countering the opposing team, that is perfectly ok.

No insulting others for their opinions on what Pokemon is best. The standard OU forum rules about flaming apply to this thread as well. If you insult users, you may face infractions, so just be respectful to your fellow users n_n

All nominations must have solid reasoning as to why that Pokemon should be chosen. I’m not asking for a novel, but at least a paragraph explaining why you think your set is best is necessary. Any nomination without an explanation to go with it will be disqualified (don’t worry though I’ll let you know through PM if your description is unsatisfactory and you will be given a chance to expand on it n_n)

Each person only gets one nomination per round. You can't just post three or four counters every round hoping that yours will be picked. Just submit the one you believe is best suited to counter the given Pokemon. Exception: Round 1 has no limit to the amount of sets you may nominate.

NO SLASHES ALLOWED ON YOUR MOVESETS. Otherwise, the opposing team's "counter" might end up not being a counter at all.


Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions!

Also, Poppy's Protip from last generation which is good to keep in mind:

Hello!

I'd like to attempt to persuade my eager, budding, and undoubtedly intelligent Ubers players to really exert their logic circuits and their common sense mains. When playing this game take a moment to concern not only which Pokemon go where, but also the pick order.

Of course, I am convinced that the more cunning of you have recognized the value of picking later as opposed to earlier. Picking Pokemon that influence team style is generally a bad idea, weather summoners, Pokemon with hard counters, niche counters, I advise against picking all of these earlier. The reason being that you want to bait the opposing team into making the least good pick possible; showing your big guns at the start encourages counter picks to your strongest and most integral Pokemon, something you definitely do not want.

In the case of Hippowdon being an early pick, standard sand has trouble with a few Pokemon, and has an easy time with a lot of others. I could very well be a wily wormwood and shut my mouth until team 1's last pick and smack on a Fighting or Water Arceus, which sand teams are typically weak to. There are more options: I could use Jolly Balloon Excadrill, Choice Specs Kyogre, etc. Furthermore, now team 1 will never use Ho-Oh, a Pokemon sand teams typically have little trouble with.

The inflexibility and transparency of revealing full sets in addition to the Pokemon make this a different ballgame for the less astute. Pick discreetly, with the intention to bait, befoul, bludgeon, barf upon, and generally bring waste to the opposition.

With that said, I hope you enjoy the first round of Counter That Pokemon!

Team 1:

Team 1

Dialga @ Adamant Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Flash Canon
- Stealth Rock

Team 1:

Team 2

Landorus-T @ Earth Plate
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

 

[Tomahawk]

I'll start off the thread with a nomination of my own to get the ball rolling, and so some people can have an idea of something they can start the thread with. The first nomination is a little different than the others, there is nothing on the oppponents team to counter, so you're best of picking something that is hard to counter, something that forces the opponent's team in a particular direction which Team 1 can take advantage of, or something of the like.

Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn

Yveltal is a threatening offensive mon, with just its two STABs it is relatively hard to switch into; Thanks to Dark Aura Dark Pulse hits very hard, and Oblivion Wing has solid base power itself and heals Yveltal a ton, making it hard to wear down. The last two moves here are just as important though; Sucker Punch means for one that the opponent needs a solid switchin, if it is KOed by Oblivion Wing / Dark Pulse + Sucker Punch, outspeeding is irrelevant. It also restricts Team 2 offensively. If they want to add a sweeper to their team, if it takes a lot of damage from Sucker Punch it will be unable to sweep our team, which means that Yveltal can do something defensively as our first mon (somewhat) without knowing the opponent's team and also having offensive pressure. U-turn is probably the most important move on the set, as it is great for a first Pokémon. Whatever Yveltal switchin they have, they can do nothing about U-turn. It makes this set pretty much impossible to counter. It is also an easy tool to wear down Yveltal's switchins, with entry hazard support, the counter will probably take about 20% each time it switches in, and this can also open up a path for other sweepers. U-turn also hits some otherwise wouldbe counter such as Tyranitar pretty hard. Something that also makes U-turn great here is the threat of Mega Gengar. We don't even need to use it, just the threat of a U-turn to Mega Gengar messes up how Team 2 will pick their Pokémon. For example, Xerneas and Sylveon are normally some solid counters to Yveltal, but a U-turn to Mega Gengar means they are removed from the game. Therefore, they are pretty much forced to go Shed Shell which really limits their survibability (thanks to U-turn giving them no chance to Wish or Rest as well).

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Um Fireburn and Minority you guys need to submit pokemon for team 1 that are ideally hard to counter. Not pokemons that counter yveltal.

 

[Hack]

I'll start off the thread with a nomination of my own to get the ball rolling, and so some people can have an idea of something they can start the thread with. The first nomination is a little different than the others, there is nothing on the oppponents team to counter, so you're best of picking something that is hard to counter, something that forces the opponent's team in a particular direction which Team 1 can take advantage of, or something of the like.

Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn

Yveltal is a threatening offensive mon, with just its two STABs it is relatively hard to switch into; Thanks to Dark Aura Dark Pulse hits very hard, and Oblivion Wing has solid base power itself and heals Yveltal a ton, making it hard to wear down. The last two moves here are just as important though; Sucker Punch means for one that the opponent needs a solid switchin, if it is KOed by Oblivion Wing / Dark Pulse + Sucker Punch, outspeeding is irrelevant. It also restricts Team 2 offensively. If they want to add a sweeper to their team, if it takes a lot of damage from Sucker Punch it will be unable to sweep our team, which means that Yveltal can do something defensively as our first mon (somewhat) without knowing the opponent's team and also having offensive pressure. U-turn is probably the most important move on the set, as it is great for a first Pokémon. Whatever Yveltal switchin they have, they can do nothing about U-turn. It makes this set pretty much impossible to counter. It is also an easy tool to wear down Yveltal's switchins, with entry hazard support, the counter will probably take about 20% each time it switches in, and this can also open up a path for other sweepers. U-turn also hits some otherwise wouldbe counter such as Tyranitar pretty hard. Something that also makes U-turn great here is the threat of Mega Gengar. We don't even need to use it, just the threat of a U-turn to Mega Gengar messes up how Team 2 will pick their Pokémon. For example, Xerneas and Sylveon are normally some solid counters to Yveltal, but a U-turn to Mega Gengar means they are removed from the game. Therefore, they are pretty much forced to go Shed Shell which really limits their survibability (thanks to U-turn giving them no chance to Wish or Rest as well).

This pick will practically force a Gengar pick for team one later, it's not a great idea because now team 2 can prepare well for trap-turn cores.

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 108 HP / 28 Def / 252 SpA / 120 Spe
Nature: Modest
~ Geomancy
~ Hidden Power Fire
~ Thunder
~ Moonblast

Classic Geo Xern is an excellent sweeper with fewer true counters than mons like EKiller, making it pretty easy to fit on a team and is a pretty good to build a team around. +2 Moonblast hits much of the tier very well, and Xern doesn't have trouble boosting since it can easily scare away many mons. True Xern counters are far and few between, and some of them are either not that great overall, or can't reliably/single handedly take it down. It's difficult to choose its movepool this early though, meaning that the other team can then choose the few mons that escape Xern's coverage (with the current set this it would be Blissey and Poison-ceus).

This is exactly the type of pick you want to avoid. Knowing your opponent has GeoXern AND its coverage moves will lead to precise teambuilding so that it is much easier to handle than it would have been if it was picked last (cause then your opponent has less space to handle a mon, and their team might be more or less weak to it already).

I will make suggestion in due time but please, think a bit more closely on your picks. There two examples are exactly how you aren't supposed to do picking order. Also just for reference, if team 1 wants a trap turn core then picking Gengar earlier than Yveltal is smarter as U-turn Yveltal is a specialized partner that you use with Gengar while a standard Gengar is just a stand-alone top threat.

 

[Tomahawk]

Hack He Must, I understand your point but I'm not sure if I fully agree. Normally, this Yveltal is paired with Mega Gengar but I don't think that is necessary. U-turn is mainly there because I think it's a great move in this project imo, especially for the first mon as it makes that much harder to counter. Also it does pair well with Mega Gengar, while it isn't necessary, it still is something Team 2 has to keep in mind all the time. This means they can't run defensive Xerneas w/ Leftovers, non-Chople Tyranitar, etc as their Yveltal switchin. We don't even have to pick Mega Gengar for this, just the possibility restricts the teambuilding of Team 2. And U-turn Yveltal still puts pressure on the opponent by itself. That's the idea behind it anyways, I can't say for sure if it would work in practice.

 

[Hack]

Nah it's p much necessary, Gengar being the replacement for Taunt on the set, having good match ups to what comes in on Yveltal. If you aren't pairing Yveltal with Gengar the the opposing defensive Xerneas, Fairyceus etc have no pressure on them at all. Put in terms of this project, team 2 can perfectly well run a bulky fairy as their Yveltal switch in. U-turn+Life Orb is also unfeasible btw, and since you are SR weak chances are you U-turn is going to do more harm to you when using Life Orb with it.

Point is, no pairing U-turn Yveltal with Gengar makes it much harder to punish bulky fairys for switching, to the point where you are just better off attacking them with owing on the switch forcing recovery moves.

 

[Tomahawk]

Nah it's p much necessary, Gengar being the replacement for Taunt on the set, having good match ups to what comes in on Yveltal. If you aren't pairing Yveltal with Gengar the the opposing defensive Xerneas, Fairyceus etc have no pressure on them at all. Put in terms of this project, team 2 can perfectly well run a bulky fairy as their Yveltal switch in. U-turn+Life Orb is also unfeasible btw, and since you are SR weak chances are you U-turn is going to do more harm to you when using Life Orb with it.

Point is, no pairing U-turn Yveltal with Gengar makes it much harder to punish bulky fairys for switching, to the point where you are just better off attacking them with owing on the switch forcing recovery moves.

Well fact is we know if Team 2 will pick a Fairy, so only in that case will we pick Mega Gengar. You make a good point about U-turn + Life Orb though, might change that around but with no Life Orb and a Hasty nature you really aren't that powerful. Thanks for the feedback, I might change my set a bit later.

 

[Hack]

ugh I don't feel like explaining myself again but here we go.

the best way of using yveltal with u-turn is by pairing it with gengar. Everything else leads to an yveltal that is inferior to taunt variants and has little utility especially considering u turn is weak and won't put pressure on its usual checks (bulky fairys) as they can just switch out.

enough of why suggesting a u turn yveltal without gengar is absolutely shit; this is a counterteaming project and picking u turn yveltal this early is very simply put, an inferior chocie when compared to picking it later because then the opponent will be much more strapped in their options of trying to counter a strategy such as trap-turn.

 

[Tomahawk]

ugh I don't feel like explaining myself again but here we go.

the best way of using yveltal with u-turn is by pairing it with gengar. Everything else leads to an yveltal that is inferior to taunt variants and has little utility especially considering u turn is weak and won't put pressure on its usual checks (bulky fairys) as they can just switch out.

enough of why suggesting a u turn yveltal without gengar is absolutely shit; this is a counterteaming project and picking u turn yveltal this early is very simply put, an inferior chocie when compared to picking it later because then the opponent will be much more strapped in their options of trying to counter a strategy such as trap-turn.

Yeah I understand your points; I'm reconsidering my nomination (tbh I'm never really good at the first one, but I felt obligated to nominate), but first I'm waiting for nominations by some other people. I'm especially interested in what your nomination is going to be.

 

[Hack]

Nomination:

Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Atk / 40 SDef / 76 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Thunder Wave
- Roost

Not only is Life Orb Ho-oh a big threat in its own rights, but it will certainly confuse team 2 because it needs support in hazards removal very badly. However, there are two entirely different ways you can go here- either you use a defoger or a spinner. A defog Arceus-forme like water will of course have big trouble if team 2 resorts to a counter teaming pick like Gothitelle but a spinner like Cloyster, an Arceus forme like ghost, or a different defog user like Scizor will make Gothitelle a liability for team 2. With using Ho-oh and the unpredictability that comes with the choice of anti-hazard support, as well as it's high threat level (and that it checks most Xerneas very well under its preferred conditions) will make team 2 have to play either into the hands of team 1 by using very specialized counters or keep up an offensive playstyle which can always lead to something like a Palkia/Groudon/Ho-oh core later (which imo isn't a bad thing).

Further reasons for using a mon like Ho-oh is that it can still fit on bulkier teams and checks trap turn combinations fairy well. It has no problem to be on a team with Tyranitar or Kyogre even though its preferred team mate Groudon is always viable. There are a lot of teams you can slap Ho-oh onto, and depending on what routes of anti-anti-hazards support team 2 takes, team 1 will be able to adjust accordingly.

 

[Nayrz]

My nomination:

Kyogre @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Kyogre may not be the king of Ubers anymore (arguably) but this set is still able to tear through most of the metagame with little support. Even some of its usual checks and counters find themselves overwhelmed by the power of Water Spout in rain, and its coverage moves hit extremely hard as well. This may be somewhat easier to counter for Team 2 due to knowing its item, as Kyogre can force switches simply by bluffing the Choice Scarf set and immediately threatening the Pokemon its facing, but that's probably going to happen to most of the mons nominated here anyway. This forces Team 2 to run a very solid counter to Kyogre as well, or run fast Pokemon to make sure its opportunities to spam Water Spout are limited, as simple checks can be overwhelmed very easily with the power of Choice Specs behind it. Team 2 might also find itself running a certain style of team due to the massive threat that Kyogre brings, limiting their options just to stop Kyogre steamrolling their team.

 

[orch]

GeoXern is different tho, the potency depends on the coverage move. If you save geoxern for last, then you can pick coverage for that specific team and own.

 

[kingmidas]

You guys are really forgetting the point of this, we don't need a sweeper/mon to build around, but a playstyle, a flexible one at that, so deoxys-speed is perfect for this senario

Deoxys-speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: pressure
Level: 100
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fire Punch
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
A little too simple and plain I guess, but it works somewhat consistant vs nearly every common threat in the tier.

 

[orch]

Building around playstyle is something that you DON'T want to do at this stage lol. The opposing team can easily devise a team that hard-counters the style. Now, you're proposing Deo-s, then team 2 will simply go with magic/cloyster sun offense or even icy wind gengar and destroy any chance of winning for team 1.

I'm nominating:

Dialga @ Adamant Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock

This Dialga set hits like a truck and sets SR. It doesn't offer much in terms of checking threats, but it's so strong and offers invaluable team support with SR. It can function well as a stallbreaker. There's no real switch ins, except for SupportArcs, Blissey, and maybe SDef Groudon. Due to this set's speed, Dialga can fare rather well versus offense, since it can take hits and retaliate with strong Draco Meteor.

 

[Inspirited]

Nomination HO! :

->

Mewtwo @ Mewtwonite Y
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 84 SpD / 176 Spd
Timid Nature
-Recover
-Taunt
-Will-O-Wisp
-Psystrike

This thing is one of the harder pokemon to switch into with Defensive / Bulky Band Ho-Oh, Arceus-Dark, Arceus-Psychic, and Heatran being the few things that can switch in without the risk of being heavily crippled by burn, or being OHKOed / 2HKOed by Psystrike. Heatran, although it can switch in safely, has trouble taking it on because of Taunt. Mewtwo will be on the losing end of this stall war unless it hasn't mega evolved, then Pressure causes Heatran to lose. Fireceus also loses because of Taunt but Mewtwo will be slightly weakened with a good amount of its Recovers gone afterward. This can do a bunch of work to just about any team depending on how it is played. It can fit on quite a few teams because of its ability to reliably spread burns, and to check many defensive threats as well as the infamous Mega Gengar after Mewtwo mega evolves. The way it disrupts a very large amount of teams is both diabolical and beautiful.

Best Mewtwo set in the format right now imo.

 

[Haruno]

Arceus and your desired mega should be one of the last things selected.

Zekrom Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252spe / 252atk / 4hp
Hasty Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Outrage
- Draco meteor
- Volt Switch

Zekrom mandates a ground + fairy on your opponents side or a ferrothorn, all of which would be severely limits the other team's team building. Set is made to wreck shit. Mostly picking this because it's a fairly decent mon in itself that has little to no safe switchins and worst comes to worst, you can just gain momentum with volt switch and it's better than dialga because krom is far more restrictive to your opps counter, forcing them to dedicate two of their slots to try and deal with it.

 

[boo836]

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Outrage
-V-Create
-Extremespeed
-Swords Dance / Draco Meteor /Iron Tail

Before you say it, I'm including a slashed option simply because it's silly to post the same set twice. Considering that R1 has unlimited nominations, everyone can be cool about it.

Anyways, Rayquaza's one of those Pokemon that are incredibly difficult to counter. Most prominent of its features include having a >90 Speed stat, titanic 150 attacking stats, insanely powerful attacks, brilliant coverage, and access to priority, which all make for a rather lethal combination. Last slot is all about what you want to use. Swords Dance is practical, and can lead to a potential sweep. Draco Meteor is cool for busting open Groudon if you don't want to risk Outraging. Iron Tail, while normally considered a bad move, brings Arceus-Fairy to KO range with Extremespeed. I wouldn't consider that too bad when we're talking about a move more accurate than say, Focus Blast. I'm just tossing options out there for Ubers Forum to decide on what's best.

Was also gonna suggest Krom but Haruno beat me to it. Anyways, like Krom, Rayray tries forcing the opponent to run a Ground and Fairy type on their team. Imo Ray's a bit more destructive when played well, but Krom's got Volt Switch to handle non-ground switch ins.

 

[Hack]

Thoughts so far

Kyogre
Knowing Kyogre is Choice Specs really gets to me in a bad way. Compare to hard hitter Ho-oh, who is most often going to hit hard and be slow. Kyogre being slow on the other hand can be a kind of a liability vs hyper offense that simply builds to be faster than it. It doesn't exactly mandate a check in the same way here. Of course you will get 1 KO even against these teams but there is more to Kyogre than that, especially since opting for it early rules out some options like Blaziken (since this is a coutnerteam project then it's still useable but there should be better options), Waterceus (unless you want an exploitable weakness with dual waters). Kyogre is definintely a mon that is usable in this project, but not just yet imo.

Deoxys-A
By employing Deoxys-A you are forfeiting the use of Deoxys-S. Now team 2 knows one mon you use, and one you cannot use. This is a big downside. On the positive, this set can easily do good damage to any team, but this is assuming you cater a build that uses stuff like Volt Switch, Baton Pass och U-turn to get it into play easily. Basically team 1 now gives away a lot of clues about how their team is going to look. Lastly, since Deo-A is 100 % dead weight vs Sticky Web, a defoger or spinner is mandatory later on, of course similar to Ho-oh, except that SR isn't going to make Ho-oh 100 % dead weight when compared to what Sticky Web does to Deo-A.

Deoxys-S
No. This is exactly what the project is NOT about. Team 2 has so many options straight out counterteaming that set (Xatu hello) and can wait with picking that exact counter until it sees an overall structure the team 1. If team 1 has any chance to get away with this, then it will need a second SR user, which results in a weak build and Deoxys-S being dead-weight.

Dialga
Offensive SR Dialga is an interesting choice, but I honestly think it might be easy to Defog against, especially for Ho-oh based teams, deploying Arceus-Water as their Defoger. This would mandate Gothitelle or some bullshit mon which is easy to take advantage of with an offensive build, and Team 2 can drag out their choice of anti-hazard user for that long if they choose to use hazard weak mons. Having no toxic means CM Arceus practically sets up for free on you, and no bulk deters Dialga's ability to take on Kyogre, so if team 2 chooses a Timid Specs Ogre later, then team 1 is forced into predictable teambuilding patterns. I would love seeing Dialga in this project though, but SR users comes later so that the opposing team must sort of pick their anti hazards mon "blindly," or at least very late meaning options are much more strapped.

Mewtwo-Y
I never saw what was so special with stalltwo-y really. Stalltwo is amazing in the metagame because its more accurate will-o-wisps going through Lum Berries. Mewtwo-Y isn't a good special sponge, it doesn't wall CM users, Kyogre, Yveltal is still Toxic prone so it can't switch into support Arceus safely. Same goes with Palkia (thunder wave and toxic both hamper this mon so much). I just wanted to name a few mons it can't handle despite being in a specialized role for such a good mon like Mewtwo is. Will-o-wisp annoys physical attackers, yes, but you cannot switch in on any physical threats and normal Stalltwo does WoW 10000x better. Lastly no leftovers suck for any defensive mon which is why mega evolutions usually don't take these roles, at least in ubers.

Enough on why the set itself is bullshit, the nomination of course means that team 1 cannot use mega-gengar. I honestly don't know if people understand how grave this is, but I'd compare it to similar choices like Extremekiller Arceus or Geomancy Xerneas as first choices. Not being able to use Mega-Gengar means team 2 can use Gengar weak mons freely, which in turn opens up a lot more possibilities in teambuilding. I honestly think there isn't more to argue about here, that point alone is so big and shouldn't be refutable.

Zekrom
What applies to specsogre, kinda applies to Zekrom. It won't mandate a Ground+Fairy core since it is too slow to do actual damage to an offensive team. Any faster fairy or dragon OHKOs Zekrom before it has the chance to do anything. Now team 1 doesn't have to care about the ever looming threat of Scarf Zekrom either. Furthermore, being burn prone and slow mandates either a cleric on team 1 or sticky web support for optimal performance, so team 2 also gets a clue where team 1 is going after this.

Rayquaza
Is a niche mon already, and is fairy prone to common support Arceus (Fairy, Water, Rock). I'd say most teams actually handle Rayquaza pretty well without being forced into specific counters anyway, so I think this applies to the project too. Personally feel like Ray can become dead weight quite easily in the current metagame.

 

[Disaster Area]

I think ho-oh is better than this contribution, BUT I still think it is interesting and worthwhile to consider.

Arceus-Dark @ Dread Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 176 Spd / 252 HP / 80 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Calm Mind
- Refresh
- Recover
We all know how great a pokemon this is (I hope) and I hope you can also see how this forces team 2 to affect their teambuilding. The only seriously dubious thing is how it uses up the arceus slot straight away, which is why I figure it won't have success, but I wanted to post something anyway, if I think of anything more interesting and better I'll say.


Also stalltwo should have leftovers and unnerve not mewtwonite Y imo, and it allows you a lot of freedom in your choice of team archetype.

 

[Tomahawk]

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Nasty Plot

Darkrai is very powerful, and puts immense pressure on the opponent, especially when combined with Dark Void and Taunt. This thing is really hard to counter without using something nice such as Heracross or Primeape. RestTalk users eg Xerneas and Kyogre can't stop this because Taunt stops them from Sleep Talking. If they use something like Fighting Arceus, they lose their Arceus choice, if they use a form of Xerneas they lose the Geomancy Xerneas option as a late choice, et cetera. It is also hard to keep up enough offensive pressure to stop Darkrai from doing anything thanks to its excellent Speed. This Darkrai set is just too hard to play around. Nasty Plot also makes it an excellent sweeper that can devestate defensive teams as well as offensive teamas

Edit: Fair enough, I had Nasty Plot at first but changed it to Taunt. I'll change it back.

 

[Hack]

Nasty Plot>Taunt tho

 

[Inspirited]

Mewtwo-Y
I never saw what was so special with stalltwo-y really. Stalltwo is amazing in the metagame because its more accurate will-o-wisps going through Lum Berries. Mewtwo-Y isn't a good special sponge, it doesn't wall CM users, Kyogre, Yveltal is still Toxic prone so it can't switch into support Arceus safely. Same goes with Palkia (thunder wave and toxic both hamper this mon so much). I just wanted to name a few mons it can't handle despite being in a specialized role for such a good mon like Mewtwo is. Will-o-wisp annoys physical attackers, yes, but you cannot switch in on any physical threats and normal Stalltwo does WoW 10000x better. Lastly no leftovers suck for any defensive mon which is why mega evolutions usually don't take these roles, at least in ubers.

Enough on why the set itself is bullshit, the nomination of course means that team 1 cannot use mega-gengar. I honestly don't know if people understand how grave this is, but I'd compare it to similar choices like Extremekiller Arceus or Geomancy Xerneas as first choices. Not being able to use Mega-Gengar means team 2 can use Gengar weak mons freely, which in turn opens up a lot more possibilities in teambuilding. I honestly think there isn't more to argue about here, that point alone is so big and shouldn't be refutable.

The biggest reason to use Mewtwonite Y, in this case, is to help discourage a team 2 Mega Gengar from showing up since this is one of the few Pokemon that can outspeed and KO it without a Scarf limiting what it can take on next. It also picks up a guaranteed OHKO on 248 HP Ho-Oh after Stealth Rock if that is enough to save it :P. This nomination was put out there by me too early now that I'm not as tired and thinking clearly but limiting a team 2 Gengar could be big, even though team 1 can't use it themselves. It also limits team 2 to not building stall since it stops all common clerics cold. I was just interested in Team 2's response to it in all honesty.

I was wondering if I could change my nomination to normal stalltwo. Should I edit this in, or delete the post and make a new one, if I can.

 

[Tomahawk]

Voting will start tomorrow, so if you still want to nominate something do it asap!

 

[Haruno]

The standard rules of team building where you try and cover every threat is nonexistent in counter team battles. Your whole goal will be to adapt your team/play style to deal with the opposing team so you'll essentially have two teams trying to CT each other as opposed to the whole metagame, so it's better off using mons that will be able to function well regardless of what the other team opts to use. Team 1 is obviously on the back foot since no matter what we use for mon 1, then team 2 will be able to adapt accordingly, so it's better to use a non arc/mega that will be able to function well. Zekrom does just that, you are not forgoing a ground/fairy because your opp is using a "slow" zekrom, sorry.

The fact that you're doing something that's useless like put 76speed on Ho oh shows that your experience in community CCAT is lacking since speed creeping is impossible for mon/team 1. If anything, Ho oh is a terrible choice for our first mon due to being forced to mandate defog/spin support which makes team 1 far less flexible as far as dealing with threats are concerned.

Though I'll change my krom and make hp ice > Draco meteor to make everyone happy.


Edit: only mon nominated so far besides krom that's even worth considering is orchs lo dialga. Everything else either doesn't give enough constraints on team 2's team building or are outright bad mons to start as the first mon. We cannot use our mega stone this early nor can we use dedicated walls/leads when the opposing team will just counter w/e.

 

[Fireburn]

For the record, 76 Speed EVs on Ho-Oh actually does something concrete (outruns Min Speed Yveltal so you can Sacred Fire it before it smacks you with Foul Play). It can admittedly be crept by the other Pokemon but its not Speed creeping if it actually hits a concrete benchmark.

Because I can't read I'm going to try this again:

Groudon @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 52 SpA / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-Rock Polish
-Hidden Power Ice

I've noticed a lot of teams recently have been somewhat weak to this thing so I figured trying it out here wouldn't hurt. Basically the use of HP Ice eliminates Landorus-T/Gliscor as easy checks, forcing Team 2 to run something else like Giratina-O, Lugia, or a physically defensive Arceus form with Will-O-Wisp which already puts the strain on Team 2's choices for team styles. Using Groudon over something like Landorus-T in this role also gives us sun for usage of things like Blaziken or Ho-Oh later which are large threats as well. It also gives Team 2 the option of using those Pokemon against Team 1 which would make for some interesting decisions later down the road.

I also like the Darkrai, Dialga, and Ho-Oh suggestions.