Since Electrolyte keeps stealing the sets I want to post, I was considering not voting for his Mamoswine out of spite.. but... it's the best.
Electrolyte
Electrolyte
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Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]
- Thread starter Nix_Hex
- Start date
If you want to bait them into picking Rain (which is a questionable strategy itself, but let's ignore this point for a moment), classic MixApe seems far better. Remains useful
EDIT: Lol ninjaed by NixHex; my vote goes to Skore since many suggestions are viable and I love Mienshao!
EDIT2: My stupid brain thinks something and writes the opposite, fixed :/
Electrolyte
EDIT: Ugh man, I'm stupid as hell. Nevermind. I must've thought Thundurus-T had 111 speed. What a brain fart.
EDIT: Ugh man, I'm stupid as hell. Nevermind. I must've thought Thundurus-T had 111 speed. What a brain fart.
What?? 108 base speed > 101 base speed.
Skore
electrolyte
I'm a narcissist
I'm a narcissist
It will be a tough choice, but more people seem to support t1 (unfair). We will need to pick a good choice to combat every possible thing. I have voted for this user twice. I hope that this vote helps us.
Electrolyte
Electrolyte
Electrolyte
Electrolyte
Looks like there's overwhelming support for Electrolyte's Mamoswine, so I'm going to cut this voting period off "early" so we can move on. Thank you again for everyone that has participated and voted so far. Team 2's fourth member is none other than Mamoswine! Its ability to revenge kill any genies, bust through Substitutes, and amazing physical attacking prowess make it the perfect member for Team 2. We are also over 50% done with the project, but there is still a while left to go as decisions are getting more and more complicated.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly
Ability: Thick Fat
~Ice Shard
~Earthquake
~Icicle Spear
~Stone Edge
The current lineups are:
Team 1: Meloetta / Thundurus-T / Metagross
Team 2: Celebi / Heatran / Rotom-W / Mamoswine
Now, we move back to Team 1. Please nominate one Pokemon to be Team 1's fourth member. Post the Pokemon's name, sprite, item, ability, EVs, and moves, along with a few sentences on how this Pokemon benefits Team 1 and counters Team 2. Please keep slashes to a minimum (0 per submission :-p).
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly
Ability: Thick Fat
~Ice Shard
~Earthquake
~Icicle Spear
~Stone Edge
The current lineups are:
Team 1: Meloetta / Thundurus-T / Metagross
Team 2: Celebi / Heatran / Rotom-W / Mamoswine
Now, we move back to Team 1. Please nominate one Pokemon to be Team 1's fourth member. Post the Pokemon's name, sprite, item, ability, EVs, and moves, along with a few sentences on how this Pokemon benefits Team 1 and counters Team 2. Please keep slashes to a minimum (0 per submission :-p).
You forgot to mention Mamoswine's nature ability Nixhex. But as far as nominations go, I really wanted to do Genesect as a good sweeper and specifically as a threat to Mamoswine but it cannot handle SpD Heatran. My only other idea is Politoed but I'm not prepared to dive into the prospect of turning this into a weather war
Edit: Oops
Edit: Oops
oops, it's supposed to be [Team, Current #] but I don't know why I put 3 lol. Team 1 it is.
It's there, look really carefully. Jolly.
I deem it to be Thick Fat. Anyone disagree?Zacchaeus said:
Lol, gotcha. Wasn't sure which it was supposed to be.
As for a Pokemon on our side, I'm thinking Infernape. I'm not sure at a glance how well it synergizes with our team strategy wise, but it easily beats 3/4 of team 2, leaving only Rotom-W to deal with. (Perhaps by some bulky SR user we pick next? *shrug*) While Celebi's Twave is crippling, 'Nape can shrug off Heatran's burns. So my nomination is this, for right now:
Infernape @ Life Orb
Iron Fist/Blaze (depending on fourth move)
252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty nature (+Spe, -Def)
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Stone Edge/Mach Punch
Hasty nature because of the primarily special team 2, not that it makes much of a difference. As for the slash, I don't intend to have that in the final set - it depends what threats we want to cut team 2 off from using. Thoughts on the topic are appreciated. I'm inclined to go with Stone Edge, since it makes it harder for them to have a Flying type as their Fighting resist, but I really don't know.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
well, i am. if you take a look at the two teams right now, politoed is the blatantly obvious choice for team 1 to make. it lets both thundurus-t and meloetta have access to 100% accurate thunder, removes one of metagross's weaknesses, and provides a check to mamoswine, who atm is team 1's biggest issue. also, politoed will prevent heatran from having virtually any effect on the battle until i suggest ninetales for team 2.
i've been mulling this over for a while and i think scarf poli is going to be the route to go, it can 2hko celebi and outspeed mamoswine for the ohko. rotom-w still poses a bit of a problem, but i'm confident that the next addition to team 1 will be able to check/counter it. right now i'm just getting weather out there, because we all know team 1 is going to end up wanting it.
suggested set:
Politoed @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Encore
i realize both hpump and surf on the same set may seem a bit odd, but considering there will be scenarios where we'll want to use both, i decided having them both there was not a bad idea. ice beam for secondary attack type and to hit celebi if it's around 40%, encore to lock celebi into nasty plot and set up with thundurus-t/meloetta. it's timid > modest to deter team 2 from pulling out some surprise tornadus-t bs.
also yea @ nixhex, thick fat mamo for sure.
Random thoughts I had for potential discussion:
-when looking at potential checks to Mamoswine, I thought of Conkeldurr. Not quite a hard counter to Mamo, but it does quite well against it. Either Ice Punch or Payback deals with Celebi, it laughs at Heatran...still isn't great against Rotom-W, though.
-Mamoswine is going to be tough for us with that great coverage. We can revenge it easily enough, but it's quite capable of punching holes in anything short of Skarmory, and I don't think we want a dedicated physical wall.
-Rotom-W's also annoying; I don't think I need to enumerate the reasons why it's good. Again, I really don't think we want a dedicated wall on a team this offensive. Meloetta can take its hits decently well, I suppose.
-I'm pretty sure we want at least SR, though probably not a Spiker. Now is the time to pick it, in either the #4 or #5 spot - that way we can save the last pick for some trump card team 2 can't respond to. Any suggestions on this front?
-when looking at potential checks to Mamoswine, I thought of Conkeldurr. Not quite a hard counter to Mamo, but it does quite well against it. Either Ice Punch or Payback deals with Celebi, it laughs at Heatran...still isn't great against Rotom-W, though.
-Mamoswine is going to be tough for us with that great coverage. We can revenge it easily enough, but it's quite capable of punching holes in anything short of Skarmory, and I don't think we want a dedicated physical wall.
-Rotom-W's also annoying; I don't think I need to enumerate the reasons why it's good. Again, I really don't think we want a dedicated wall on a team this offensive. Meloetta can take its hits decently well, I suppose.
-I'm pretty sure we want at least SR, though probably not a Spiker. Now is the time to pick it, in either the #4 or #5 spot - that way we can save the last pick for some trump card team 2 can't respond to. Any suggestions on this front?
Seeing as team one is primarily special, I'm thinking we need something with special bulk that can also take some hits from Mamoswine.
Virizion @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Atk / 36 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SpA)
- Reflect
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
This set perfectly counters Team 2. 36 Speed EVs guarantees that Celebi will be outsped. HP Fire takes 3-4 hits to kill Virizion but staying in will receive a 4x super effective X-Scissor. Heatran's Lava plume is a 3 hit KO and dies to 1 Close Combat. Rotom-W has no move to hit Virizion for neutral damage and a STAB Leaf Blade has a 35% chance to KO (90.5% - 106.61%) and a 100% chance to KO after rocks. Reflect is mainly to counter Mamoswine and any other possible physical attackers. After a reflect is up, Virizion can take Earthquakes with easy and it takes 8 or 9 hits of Icicle Spear to kill.
Virizion @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Atk / 36 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SpA)
- Reflect
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
This set perfectly counters Team 2. 36 Speed EVs guarantees that Celebi will be outsped. HP Fire takes 3-4 hits to kill Virizion but staying in will receive a 4x super effective X-Scissor. Heatran's Lava plume is a 3 hit KO and dies to 1 Close Combat. Rotom-W has no move to hit Virizion for neutral damage and a STAB Leaf Blade has a 35% chance to KO (90.5% - 106.61%) and a 100% chance to KO after rocks. Reflect is mainly to counter Mamoswine and any other possible physical attackers. After a reflect is up, Virizion can take Earthquakes with easy and it takes 8 or 9 hits of Icicle Spear to kill.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
your virizion is extremely situational, and team 2 still has 2 pokemon left. this moveset in particular is rendered absolutely useless by either forme of tornadus; if this pokemon is selected, i have no doubt in my mind what team 2's next move will be. i advise my fellow smogonites to consider not only the current teams on the table, but the likely future teams as well.
That Virizion set seems decidedly meh. With no boosting move, it doesn't hit terribly hard except when using the precisely correct move on each mon. With that little speed, it gets outsped by...quite a lot, meaning that it'll be easy for team 2 to counter. Also, it can't switch in on Heatran with impunity for fear of getting burned.
well, you have to give some credit, team 2 was pretty much covered by that set. However, as a smart teambuilder, countering just the pokemon given to you is not good enough. You want to restrict the options of the opponent, force him to focus on one strategy, and then tweak your team so it completely crushes that strategy. That's teambuilding.
Ithilanor's got the right idea, though- the one thing team 1 needs right now is a strong fighting type that can handle Celebi. Having strong priority would be awesome too. Infernape is, I think, a great idea, but I've got another one:
Lucario @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly nature
~Swords Dance
~Close Combat
~Extremespeed
~Ice Punch
Lucario may seem a bit weird, but with just one boost under it's belt it can sweep all of team 2. Heatran won't dare burn you, and Celebi can't take an Ice Punch and an Extremespeed. Everything else is just pummeled to death by Close Combat.
However, this set does have major flaws. It's extremely dangerous once it starts, but it's hard to get it started in the first place. The only real pokemon you can actually set up on are Rotom and Heatran- and both require significant amounts of prediction, and the requirement that you get in scotch free. You can set up on Rotom as long as it doesn't Trick you, and you may be able to feign CC at Heatran, forcing it to Protect to scout what you're going to do, and THEN take it out with CC. Mindgames. Hopefully team 2 may be forced to pick a pokemon Lucario can set up against easily.
Despite this, I have chosen Lucario for one main reason- it's ability to force team 2 to have a solid answer for it, because it's such a threat. They'll have to play extra carefully, allowing us to go for some riskier moves- such as setting up. With this strategy, we kick team 2 in the ass for having semi-defensive pokemon.
And, of course, if we use Lucario, a Heal Beller is probably a great idea.
Ithilanor's got the right idea, though- the one thing team 1 needs right now is a strong fighting type that can handle Celebi. Having strong priority would be awesome too. Infernape is, I think, a great idea, but I've got another one:
Lucario @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly nature
~Swords Dance
~Close Combat
~Extremespeed
~Ice Punch
Lucario may seem a bit weird, but with just one boost under it's belt it can sweep all of team 2. Heatran won't dare burn you, and Celebi can't take an Ice Punch and an Extremespeed. Everything else is just pummeled to death by Close Combat.
However, this set does have major flaws. It's extremely dangerous once it starts, but it's hard to get it started in the first place. The only real pokemon you can actually set up on are Rotom and Heatran- and both require significant amounts of prediction, and the requirement that you get in scotch free. You can set up on Rotom as long as it doesn't Trick you, and you may be able to feign CC at Heatran, forcing it to Protect to scout what you're going to do, and THEN take it out with CC. Mindgames. Hopefully team 2 may be forced to pick a pokemon Lucario can set up against easily.
Despite this, I have chosen Lucario for one main reason- it's ability to force team 2 to have a solid answer for it, because it's such a threat. They'll have to play extra carefully, allowing us to go for some riskier moves- such as setting up. With this strategy, we kick team 2 in the ass for having semi-defensive pokemon.
And, of course, if we use Lucario, a Heal Beller is probably a great idea.
The OP has links to the sets.
Amusingly, I suggested a SD Luke set for our third mon, I think it was. I'm somewhat hesitant, though...we don't have any VoltTurners to bring Luke in easily, and as you said, it's so hard to get him in. He also can't really set up on Rotom-W; Hydro Pump deals 80.14 - 94.68%, Thunderbolt hits for 63.82 - 75.53%, even Volt Switch deals 47.16 - 55.67%. With LO recoil and possible hazards, he'll be worn down quick and easily revenge killed.well, you have to give some credit, team 2 was pretty much covered by that set. However, as a smart teambuilder, countering just the pokemon given to you is not good enough. You want to restrict the options of the opponent, force him to focus on one strategy, and then tweak your team so it completely crushes that strategy. That's teambuilding.
Ithilanor's got the right idea, though- the one thing team 1 needs right now is a strong fighting type that can handle Celebi. Having strong priority would be awesome too. Infernape is, I think, a great idea, but I've got another one:
Lucario @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly nature
~Swords Dance
~Close Combat
~Extremespeed
~Ice Punch
Lucario may seem a bit weird, but with just one boost under it's belt it can sweep all of team 2. Heatran won't dare burn you, and Celebi can't take an Ice Punch and an Extremespeed. Everything else is just pummeled to death by Close Combat.
However, this set does have major flaws. It's extremely dangerous once it starts, but it's hard to get it started in the first place. The only real pokemon you can actually set up on are Rotom and Heatran- and both require significant amounts of prediction, and the requirement that you get in scotch free. You can set up on Rotom as long as it doesn't Trick you, and you may be able to feign CC at Heatran, forcing it to Protect to scout what you're going to do, and THEN take it out with CC. Mindgames. Hopefully team 2 may be forced to pick a pokemon Lucario can set up against easily.
Despite this, I have chosen Lucario for one main reason- it's ability to force team 2 to have a solid answer for it, because it's such a threat. They'll have to play extra carefully, allowing us to go for some riskier moves- such as setting up. With this strategy, we kick team 2 in the ass for having semi-defensive pokemon.
And, of course, if we use Lucario, a Heal Beller is probably a great idea.
We could go with a SD Infernape set instead of the Mixed set I posted; it'd still be able to get through Celebi, and it has more sweeping potential. It just lacks some of the raw wallbreaking power (not too important at this juncture) and tempo-gaining (far more important in a match between two offensive teams)
There are links in the OP.
Right now, I'm seeing Rotom-W as the biggest threat so far to Team 1. It smacks Thundurus-T with Hydro Pump, cripples Meloetta with Trick and can just Volt Switch against Metagross. What we need is a way to cripple Rotom. We can use hazards to combat it, but pretty much every hazard user (bar Jirachi maybe, but there's that Heatran to contend with there...) is crippled by Trick. Another way to beat Rotom would be to wall the hell out of it, but once again Trick comes back to bite us. Here, however, we can use a Choice user to beat it. Perhaps we can use a Choice Scarf Hydreigon.
Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- U-turn
- Superpower
Draco Meteor pummels everything. Fire Blast roasts Celebi. U-Turn scares Celebi away and gets away from Mamoswine. Superpower hits Mamoswine on the switch. Hydreigon's Dragon typing and U-Turn make it an excellent Pokemon for the team right now, as not only can Rotom not hit it but it forms a pseudo Volt-Turn core with Hydreigon. It also has a move that can take a huge chunk out of every Pokemon on the team. Superpower actually does slightly less to Heatran than Focus Blast, but its presence on the set threatens special walls that Team 2 might introduce.
Right now, I'm seeing Rotom-W as the biggest threat so far to Team 1. It smacks Thundurus-T with Hydro Pump, cripples Meloetta with Trick and can just Volt Switch against Metagross. What we need is a way to cripple Rotom. We can use hazards to combat it, but pretty much every hazard user (bar Jirachi maybe, but there's that Heatran to contend with there...) is crippled by Trick. Another way to beat Rotom would be to wall the hell out of it, but once again Trick comes back to bite us. Here, however, we can use a Choice user to beat it. Perhaps we can use a Choice Scarf Hydreigon.
Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Atk
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- U-turn
- Superpower
Draco Meteor pummels everything. Fire Blast roasts Celebi. U-Turn scares Celebi away and gets away from Mamoswine. Superpower hits Mamoswine on the switch. Hydreigon's Dragon typing and U-Turn make it an excellent Pokemon for the team right now, as not only can Rotom not hit it but it forms a pseudo Volt-Turn core with Hydreigon. It also has a move that can take a huge chunk out of every Pokemon on the team. Superpower actually does slightly less to Heatran than Focus Blast, but its presence on the set threatens special walls that Team 2 might introduce.