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Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by NixHex, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. SuperChillarmy

    SuperChillarmy

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    So the main thing that sticks out to me is that we still have a big Terrakion weakness. sure, Scizor deals huge damage with Bullet punch, Scizor ain't going to be switching in on terrakion at any time. The only switch in to Terrakion's Close Combat is Celebi, who gets destroyed by X-Scissor. We also have no Rock resist, so terrakion can simply spam Stone Edge and hope he doesn't miss :P We need a rock Resist, and it would be nice if we could get a Fighting resist along with it. I'm sure we all know the mons that resist Terrakion's STABs after the BW1 meta: Golurk, Claydol, Nidoqueen, and Toxicroak. Lemme break them all down.

    Golurk
    Golurk's STABs actually kind of give team 1 some trouble, especially if they're CB boosted. Terrakion and Metagross die to Earthquake, Kyurem can't really take a DynamicPunch and hates the confusion, Meloetta just dies to Earthquake, and Thundurus
    gets nailed my Ice Punch. The only problem is getting Golurk in. Golurk can only really switch in on Terrakion, and is a wee bit too situational for me.

    Claydol
    Really the only set it can run is Dual Screens, which may be an option for celebi to set up. its really just dead weight and too specific a niche.

    Toxicroak
    We'd need to run a really physically bulky set to tank Terrakion's hits, and Bulk Up is probably the only way to go. However, i do really like Toxicroak given his synergy with the team and good typing.

    Nidoqueen
    Offensive Sheer Force actually has some need coverage, 2HKOing everything except Meloetta unless we want to run Crunch, which would be pretty cool. Something like Sludge Wave/Ice beam/Earth Power/Crunch or Coverage would be ideal. It has decent synergy with the team and does its job of walling Terrakion.

    Take what you want with this. I feel like Team 2 will get destroyed by Terrakion if we dont act to prevent it.
  2. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    While you are right in saying Terrakion is possibly the biggest threat to team 2 currently, it's not all that bad. Rotom's Hydro pump:113.93-134,36% (guaranteed OHKO) and Scizor's BP: 109.59-128.79% (guaranteed OHKO). Both of these will outspeed Terrakion obviously, so its simply a matter of bringing them in to scare it out, or actually grab the KO. It could be as easy as baiting the stone edge then switching in to Sciz, or the X-Scissor on Cele and then swapping in Rotom. While you are right in saying Terrakion is a big threat, it doesn't threaten team 2 enough to worry me just yet.

    While having no rock resist isn't great, its also not to big an issue seeing as Terrakion is their only user of rock. The counters you listed are okay, the only one I find to be potentially viable is Toxicroak as it could benefit from team 1 choosing to go with Politoed as their final pick. All in all, I don't think our next pick really needs to worry about countering Terrakion that much, because the team as a whole already does it quite decently as is.
  3. Skore

    Skore

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    At this stage of the game are we still about hard countering every mon on the opposite team? It's kind of evolved into a match-up vs match-up.

    If for example, Heatran's already got his Rocks up and is at low HP anyways, wouldn't it be best to sac him to Terrakion to get Scizor or Rotom in? Both of them will outspeed and KO or force him out giving us the momentum via Volt-Turn.

    Edit: Ninjasked!
  4. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    You sir are entirely correct. The whole idea of this thread was to build two cohesive, competitive teams. At this point in the process with one member left on either side I don't think it should focus on countering one specific threat on the other team, rather it should patch as many existing issues as possible and bring everything else together where possible.

    That said if you look at team 1 and 2 as they stand, there are really two options which team 1 will want to go for now; Politoed or Infernape. SpecsToed or ScarfNape are both very big potential threats to team 2 now, and both of them fit in with team 1 without any real issues. I think for the final slot on this team we need something that either happily resists whatever team 1 could do to us in rain, or something to check what our fire and fighting weaknesses are, or if possible, both. Make no mistake, i'm not contradicting what I just said about 1v1 counters, these weaknesses already exist so the pick would be patching those. I have a few mons in mind that can effectively cover either bothof our main weaknesses, or force the other teams hand substantially. I'll post a set when I get home and have time to fully analyase which would best suit team 2.
  5. HolyAvatar

    HolyAvatar

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    Actually Salamence is a very good pick (the new version with LO). He explained why. Steel types have always been troublesome for dragons but not for our team as a whole.
    Scarf Latios would be a bad pick for them : if it revenges salamence, it gets trapped by scizor.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    First of all we need to see what pokes team 1 can chose that would sweep us with little effort.

    The first poke that comes to mind is offensive Volcarona with HP Ground. At +1 it outspeeds and ohkoes everything in team 2 after SR (Heatran takes 93.5% min, sure ohko after SR). It doesn't even need a LO, which means that it can run Lefties to be able to set-up easier, and it can also run a Modest nature, because our faster Scarfer is Rotom-W, which is outsped by a +1 Modest Volcarona by 1 point. It can set-up easily on a CB BP from Scizor, a Celebi that it will force out and a choiced Tbolt from Rotom-W. The Salamence that Electrolyte posted is good, but it still takes a big 60.12 - 70.99% from a +1 Fire Blast, which means that after SR and 1 round of LO recoil it goes down.

    Another threat that is somewhat problematic is offensive LO NP Celebi with Giga Drain / EP / HP Fire, which ohkoes everything at +2, and also has Giga Drain to offset damage done by LO and priority, and the only poke that can outspeed it, Rotom-W, can do nothing against him (ok he can Trick, but then good luck with handling all the fast offensive threats that Team 1 has).

    A Modest Expert Belt Genesect with HP Ground / Flamethrower / Ice Beam / U-turn would also be very tough to face as only Rotom-W can safely switch in and outspeed. Everything else is outsped and ohkoed (except from Mamo, which takes 55.4 - 65.37% from a +1 Flamethrower).

    Scarf Infernape and Specs Politoed also seem threatening.

    Those 5 poke are big threats for our team, the way i see it.
  7. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryday to keep me busy
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    Talked this over with ginga; we are not considering Garchomp for nominations. It is not currently OU and neither team has been designed with Garchomp in mind. ScarfChomp on T2 would totally dominate T1 as it outspeeds and severely damages everything so far. I'm on my phone so I can't really do calcs bit our reasoning should be clear. Thanks for understanding and keep up the good work!

    edit: did some calcs now that I'm awake. It 2HKOes everything but Kyurem and Terrakion, both of whom it OHKOes.
  8. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    After some thoughts, I'm going to repost the set I suggested the last time:

    [​IMG]

    Landorus-T @ Life Orb
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Nature: Naughty (+Atk / -SpD) (Adamant is an option, Naughty gives 100% chance to KO Gliscor)
    - Rock Polish
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Hidden Power Ice

    The only thing that can trouble this set is Rotom-W, however Stone Edge can still dent them pretty well on the switch, and Celebi covers perfectly Rotom-W any day. Adding Skarmory or Zong just to handle Lando seems unviable, since their team is pretty offensive and a wall will screw their momentum greatly. Gliscor isn't an option for them thanks to HP Ice. Also, this set has the advantage of being able to kill Scarfed revenge killers thrown at him by just Rock Polishing on the switch and killing with the appropriate coverage move, something Salamence, for example, can't do. Of course, it cannot address our weaknesses to Volcarona or Genesect, but it's really hard to think something that covers Volcarona, scarfers, Genesect and SpecsToed all in one. This thing does a good job at checking Terrakion / Metagross not locked into MM, takes the opportunity to set-up and sweep, and is quite resilient to revenge killing; all those things makes it a good asset for Team 2, even if it doesn't cover every threat we are concerned about.
  9. Me So Shiny

    Me So Shiny

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    I completely agree with alexwolf, for this pick it should be making sure that we don't pick a Poke that let's T2 find one Poke that can rip through all of T1. Below I'm going to list the best counters for the five pokes that he listed as major threats.

    Volcarona
    One of the most obvious counters is already on the team in Heatran but like alexwolf said if Volc carries HP ground he rips through everyone. Mamo could catch him with stone edge but there is no reason to use Volc to sponge attacks so that's not going to happen. A scarf Terrakion would scare +1 Volc away but this team already has two choice users so this last slot. The best option is to get up stealth rock as soon as possible. Since there is no spinner on T2 by adding Volcarona T2 forfeits having a spinner and then other hazards would be a great idea.
    Solution for Volcarona= Get up SR and possibly other hazards

    LO NP Celebi
    Celebi can rock T1 after one NP if there is not a decent counter selected as the last slot. Two great counters are Chansey or Blissey who could also provide wish support or support with heal bell. These two could also help with Kyurem. However metagross gets a free switch in on both of them. Another problem with these two add a triple weakness to fighting to the team. Other celebie counters are the Lati@s, the only way for Celebi to hurt them is with U-turn which takes away a coverage move. Hydreigon is probably the best answer and can get a sub up on the Celebi switch out then spam his powerful attacks.
    Solution for Celebi= Substitute Hydreigon

    Expert Belt Genesect
    Genesect is most commonly seen as the scarfed lead that U-turns everywhere, however an expert belt could bluff Scarf and hit heatran with HP Ground. This is one of the harder Genesects to counter, Blissey and Chansey could force him to U-turn out but it's only advisable if download gave Genesect a SpA boost instead of Atk boost. The best bet for this set is probably expert belt Latios with HP fire which is an easy OHKO. As long as it is switching into HP ground or flamethrower it will be fine.
    Solution for Genesect= Expert belt Latios

    Scarf Infernape
    The best counter to a scarf Infernape is probably Gyarados, it can switch into anything but a stone edge, with intimidate it laughs off an attack then gets up a sub or DD.
    Solution for Scar Infernape= Any bulky Gyarados

    Specs Politoed
    The best counter to specs politoed is proper prediction. Ferrothorn is a great counter as long as Focus Blast isn't used, but he would give another fire weakness, T1 already has rotom-w who takes big hits but can hit back, unless toed has HP grass. Another great counter is Toxicroak, I think Politoed is the most dangerous pick that T2 could pick. Meloetta and Thundurus-T both love rain and it takes away Metagross's weakness.
    Solution for Politoed= Toxicroak

    Overall there is no single Poke who can counter all 5, I think T1 should be worried about specs toed. It helps out both teams by removing fire weaknesses but the only member of T1 who gets help on offense is Rotom. I really like the idea of getting up spikes or toxic spikes also though, if they don't pick a spinner it could hurt them in the end. I have to go now but I'll try to edit this post later to expand on the possibility of hazards.
  10. TyranitarAbuser

    TyranitarAbuser

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    [​IMG]

    Gengar@Leftovers
    Nature: Timid
    Substitute
    Thunderbolt
    Shadow Ball
    Focus Blast

    Gengar serves two roles on this team, being able to safeguard our Stealth Rocks, thus allowing its teammates to net some OHKOs and strip 25% off Thunderus-T and Kyurem when they are sent in. it also functions as a special attacker capable of slamming everything but Metagross on t1.
  11. Me So Shiny

    Me So Shiny

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    I think substitute Hydreigon is a great member to add as the last member of the team.

    [​IMG]

    Hydreigon@Leftovers
    Nature:Modest
    56 HP/ 252 SpA/ 200 Spe
    Substitute
    Draco Meteor
    Focus Blast
    Fire Blast

    This guy is a beast, I'm just going to let the stats below do the talking.

    Vs. Terrakion
    Focus Blast: 306-360 (94.44 - 111.11%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Vs. Kyurem
    Draco Meteor: 534-630 (132.17 - 155.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Vs. Metagross
    Fire Blast: 306-360 (84.06 - 98.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Vs. Thundurus-t
    Draco Meteor: 294-346 (98.32 - 115.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Vs. Meloetta
    Draco Meteor: 198-234 (58.06 - 68.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Another good option if you guys don't think there is quite enough power behind his hits then a life orb instead of leftovers could be used, the only OHKO's it picks up are against Meloetta and Metagross. Metagross become a guaranteed OHKO while Meloetta is a very unlikely one.

    Vs. Meloetta
    Draco Meteor: 256-303 (75.07 - 88.85%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  12. SuperChillarmy

    SuperChillarmy

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    Thats exactly the issue, nothing can switch in on Terrakion without taking huge damage, if not getting killed:

    Close Combat vs Rotom W: 238-282 (98.34 - 116.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Close Combat vs Scizor: 254-300 (74.05 - 87.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Rotom is flat out OHKO'd after SR, and almost always is OHKO'd without. If Scizor has taken any prior damage at all, he too is OHKO'd after Stealth Rock. We really do need something to address Terrrakion a bit more solidly. I'm nominating BU Toxicroak.

    [​IMG]
    Toxicroak @ Life Orb
    208 Att/244 HP/56 Def
    Adamant Nature
    Dry Skin

    - Bulk Up
    - Drain Punch
    - Sucker Punch
    - Substitute

    Toxicroak threatens a good portion of Team 1 once it gets a boost in. He does his job of keeping Terrakion in check, as he OHKOs with Drain Punch, recovering the health he lost taking a Close Combat. The EVs let toxicroak avoid a 3HKO from terrakion's Close Combat. In addition he also threatens both formes of Meloetta, and when boosted will do a good amount of damage to the rest of the team while constantly recovering health with Drain Punch.
  13. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    You make a fair point, but I think you missed mine. You only switch those two in if you are very certain you're not coming in on a CC, thats just basic prediction :p. Worst case, if heatran has set up rocks, switch it in for the sac, then go into Sciz/Rotom.

    In regards to Toxicroak, it isn't to bad a choice, but i'd like to know how much a +0 suckerpunch does to Meloetta-A, if its not a clean ko then theres issues.

    In regards to Hydreigon, yes it can seriously hurt team 1, however it isn' the smartest choice. Hydreigon does provide a nice electric and fire resist, although it also compounds our weakness to fighting. That to me basically forces team 1 to pick Infernape as a Scarfed mixApe will destroy team 2, OHKOing the majority of it with the right stab.

    Right now I think we probably want another physical attacker, or at least something that isn't weak to fire or fighting. I'll post a set when I decide on one, probably when I get home
  14. HolyAvatar

    HolyAvatar

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    Here's my weird submission:
    Slowbro @ expert belt
    [​IMG]
    252 hp/ 160 Def/ 96 SAtk
    Regenerator
    Bold nature
    -Surf
    -Ice beam
    -Flamethrower
    -Slack Off

    -This may seem weird seeing that Terrakion has X-scissor let's get to calculations:
    252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion X-Scissor vs 252 HP/160 Def Slowbro (+Def) : 41,62% - 49,24% (3 hits to KO)
    96 SpAtk Expert Belt Slowbro Surf vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Terrakion: 91,98% - 108,64% (56,25% chance to OHKO)

    -Next is Thundurus-T, the ohko is obvious but it has life orb and slowbro can cripple it or just KO it on the switch:
    96 SpAtk Expert Belt Slowbro Ice Beam vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Thundurus-T: 72% - 85,33% (81,25% chance to OHKO) with SR
    96 SpAtk Slowbro Surf vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Thundurus-T: 45% - 53,33% (2-3 hits to KO)

    -Now let's see metagross against Slowbro:
    96 SpAtk Expert Belt Slowbro Flamethrower vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Metagross: 54,67% - 64,56% (2 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Choice Band Metagross (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/160 Def Slowbro (+Def) : 34,01% - 40,1% (3 hits to KO)
    Everything else is a 4HKO

    -Scarf infernape's best attack is:
    148 SpAtk Infernape Fire Blast vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Slowbro: 23,6% - 27,66% (4-5 hits to KO)
    96 SpAtk Expert Belt Slowbro Surf vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Infernape: 122,87% - 144,71% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    -It can hit even bulky Volcarona hard on the switch but that's about it.
    96 SpAtk Expert Belt Slowbro Surf vs 252 HP/0 +1 SpDef Volcarona: 47,06% - 55,61% (2-3 hits to KO)
    96 SpAtk Expert Belt Slowbro Surf vs 252 HP/0 +1 SpDef Volcarona: 47,06% - 55,61% (68,75% chance to OHKO) after SR meaning it can't try to set up on him.

    Volcarona will remain a big problem though. Sash Alakazam with HP rock might be able to deal with both Terrakion and Volcarona but I just don't like the poke, someone else could submit it and do the calcs.
    Dragonite will force her to go for HP ice and get walled by heatran.
    Remember that their Volcarona cannot run recovery unless it loses to heatran or loses one of her stabs.

    Edit: Toxicroak vs meloetta
    208 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Meloetta: 76,25% - 89,74% (18,75% chance to OHKO after SR)
  15. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryday to keep me busy
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    Waiting on a particular person's submission. Please submit your last minute sets or critiques guys!
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    [​IMG]

    Infernape @ Life Orb
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Trait: Iron Fist
    Nature: Naive
    - Close Combat
    - Overheat
    - Stone Edge
    - Mach Punch

    This set is from me and TempV1. If we can't both be added as nominators, then add him. Description will be coming in a few hours by him.
  17. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    Thanks very much for that Alex, now onto Infernape.

    As I've said in a few of my previous posts, team 2 is quite vulnerable to a few specific threats, in particular Politoed and Infernape. I was working with Alexwolf to figure out exactly which mon best filled out team 2, and we tried quite a few different things. Our first idea was CB Garchomp, which dealt with team 1 quite nicely, although we were informed that Chomp wasn't going to be allowed. The next stop then was dragons that resisted fighting (Dragonite, Salamence and the Eon Twins), as they resisted fire, water and fighting. We came up with a Dragonite set that looked very promising, although the weakness to SR, and the clean OHKOs by 3 current members of team 1 sort of deterred me from nominating it.

    The main thing that I kept in mind while figuring out what to choose was that as it stands team 2 was in a position where it could be very weak to fire, water and fighting, and it also needed a late game cleaner. Alex and I also tried to figure out what countered Infernape, Genesect, Volcarona and a few other potentially serious threats. Funnily enough it turned out that Infernape actually wrecks both teams 1 & 2 currently, so I decided to mock up a set and some scenarios.

    Through a few tweaks with Alex this is what we came up with:

    [​IMG]
    Infernape @ Life Orb
    Iron Fist
    Naïve 252 ATK 4 SATK 252 SPE
    Close Combat
    Overheat
    Stone Edge
    Mach Punch

    Its fairly easy to see exactly where each of those moves goes. Close Combat is obligatory on any Ape that isn't purely special, and it also works quite nicely against a lot of team 1, Kyurem, Terrakion and Meloetta, the next move had to of course be a high powered fire move. A lot of Apes will run Flare Blitz rather than Fire Blast/Overheat, although currently the only mon that it will be used against is Metagross, who has a much higher base defense, so Overheat made more sense. Alongside that, Flare Blitz recoil and LO damage racks up very quickly, especailly if Ape if switching in and out a lot. It made a lot more sense to go with Overheat as it is still a clean OHKO. Stone Edge was elected over Ice Punch as it deters team 1 from wanting to choose Volcarona, which as Alex has mentioned could seriously threaten team 2. It is also quite a lot of overkill on Thundurus-T, as you could imagine. The final slot came down to either U-Turn or Mach Punch. U-Turn would have been nice to add another member to the VoltTurn capabilities of this team, and to provide easy switch ins for any particular mon that needs to come in. However it appeared that the general consensus was that Terrakion is a huge threat to team 2 at the moment, and that we don't have any solid checks. So Mach Punch was added to deal with that.

    Here are a few calcs to display the offensive potential of Infernape:
    (Thanks to HolyAvatar)

    Against Thundurus-T
    Infernape vs Thundurus-T
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs 0 HP/4 Def Thundurus-T: 108,36% - 127,76% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/4 Def Thundurus-T: 48,49% - 57,19% (Guaranteed 2HKO after SR or 1 turn of LO)

    Against Meloetta-A
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Meloetta: 79,47% - 93,55% (43,75% chance to OHKO after SR)

    Against Metagross
    -4 SpAtk Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Metagross: 122,8% - 144,23% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    Against Kyurem
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 52 HP/0 Def Kyurem: 118,81% - 139,6% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    Against Terrakion
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 148,61% - 174,61% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    -252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 60,37% - 70,59%
    -252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def Terrakion: 89,16% - 104,95% (31,25% chance to OHKO). Actually almost guaranteed OHKO because of LO recoil.

    In regards to Mach Punch vs Terrakion; Terrakion and Infernape will have exactly the same speed, so Mach Punch is a safety net if we wish to avoid running the risk of losing the speed-tie, and inevitably, Infernape. As HolyAvatar's calcs show, Mach Punch is a serious threat to Terrakion after a few attacks and SR damage, or if its at -1 after a CC, it just has to get out of there. HolyAvatar's calcs also showed that Kyurems EP will OHKO Ape cleanly, so Ape can't come in on Kyurem behind a sub, thats okay though. One of the benefits (of which there are a hell of a lot) of Infernape for team 2, is that it doesn't necessarily need to play a big role in the early stages of the match. It could either come in and play the first half of the match, punching holes through everything , or it could come in late game and just sweep everything thats left.
    Aside from the speed-tie with Terrakion it outspeeds all of team 1 currently, bar Meloetta-P, which really isn't going to take a Mach Punch all that well:

    Mach Punch (56.3 - 66.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and if its in Pirouette form, it has to have at least fired off one attack.

    If Ape did come in late game, after say Meloetta and Terrakion were in range of a OHKO from CC and Mach Punch respectively, there isn't anything that team 1 could do. HolyAvatar also provided calcs in regards to how well Ape takes Metagross' BP;

    -252 Atk Choice Band Metagross (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Infernape: 24,91% - 29,69%
    -252 Atk Choice Band Metagross (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def Infernape: 37,54% - 44,37%

    Which is very useful to see, so Ape could easily stay in for a few turns, KOing member after member of team 1, provided anything that doesn't get OHKO'd flat out is within OHKO range.
    As I mentioned earlier, the two biggest threats that Alex and I kept in the back of our mind were Politoed and Infernape. Now picking Infernape doesn't do a whole lot to change the scales for team 1 picking Infernape, although it does make Politeod a hell of a lot more desirable. Politoed allows them to have rain, which really boosts Meloetta and Thundurus' danger levels, and it would also mean that Metagross can deal with Overheat, whilst having about half our team in constant fear of taking a high powered water attack. This is where it gets fun.

    If team 1 does want to pick Politoed, which is really the smartest play at the moment, they are basically limited to one of two varients. They either have to pick a ScarfToed, or a physically bulky 252/252 positive nature. This is sort of what the whole thread was about, in regards to manipulating what the other team is able to pick. If they do want to pick the best choice for their team as a whole, they are really limited in what they can do. The BulkyToed is easily dealt with through a combination of Rotom and Celebi, Celebi being able to absorb those Toxics and Scald burns, while Rotom can just Volt Switch straight into Celebi. ScarfToed is a little more threatening, and the better option for team 1. It will outspeed everything on team 2 bar Rotom, Scizor's BP, Ape's Mach Punch and Mamo's Ice Shard. However between those, I think it can be dealt with quite easily. Really, it would be dealt with in much the same way as BulkyToed, by Celebi. Heres a few calcs for that.

    These calcs are assuming a ScarfToed set like this;

    Politoed @ Choice Scarf
    Timid 4 HP 252 SATK 252 SPE
    Drizzle
    Hydro Pump
    Ice Beam
    HP-Grass/Psychic/Perish Song
    Focus Blast

    Ice Beam vs Celebi: (45.63 - 54.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Celebi can happily take that, then either T-wave, or Giga Drain, then proceed to set up a Nasty Plot.

    Giga Drain vs Politoed: (90.06 - 106.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Not a great match up huh, and heres calcs for Rotom and how it deals with Politoed,

    VoltSwitch: (61.49 - 72.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Thunderbolt: (83.85 - 98.75%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    As evidenced, it is quite easy to deal with. I'll just point out that the reason that I say those are really the best options in terms of a Politoed set for team 1, is that if they went say a SpecsToed then Ape would do this:

    Close Combat: (86.02 - 101.55%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Team 1 could potentially elect a bulky SDEF Politoed set to better deal with Celebi and Rotom, although that doesn't fare all that much better against Infernape;

    Close Combat: (72.13 - 85.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    As far as Overheat vs Metagross in the rain, its down from being a guaranteed OHKO to only dealing 61.4-72.12%, which isn't bad, but it isn't a OHKO. However at that range after rocks Mach Punch would make quick work of it. Although Ape can't stay in if its locked into EQ, as thats just bad for Ape, very bad >.> In the rain however, Rotom's Hydro Pump will demolish Metagross, so its not really an issue.

    Picking Ape does make Politoed, and rain, even more appealing to team 1, however it doesn't exactly open us up to huge weaknesses. This Ape would instantly become the biggest threat to team 1 which means that if they don't decide to pick Politoed, their options are still fairly limited. A few potential counters include things such as Jellicent and Slowbro, neither of which really fit in with team 1 currently. As Skore and I previously mentioned, at this stage of the team building, it really shouldn't be about picking a mon to hard-counter just one of the other teams mons. Although this Ape would almost force team 1 to do just that, unless they want to go for a Scarfed Keldeo or something strange along those lines.

    In summary; Infernape will decimate team 1 as it stands, it can happily outspeed everything, and has Mach Punch to deal with that speed-tie with Terrakion. Picking Ape makes rain very appealing to team 1, however as I've said we aren't all that weak to rain. From the midpoint of this thread it appeared as though team 2 would be predominantly on the back foot, although Ape would put team 2 in the drivers seat as long as it is around.

    Credit for Ape goes to Alexwolf and myself, with a shout out to HolyAvatar for the helpful calcs, cheers.

    Thats my submission, thoughts?
  18. HolyAvatar

    HolyAvatar

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    I'll help with calculations:

    -Infernape vs Meloetta
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Meloetta: 79,47% - 93,55% (43,75% chance to OHKO after SR)
    (-252 Atk Life Orb Infernape U-turn vs 0 HP/0 Def Meloetta: 62,76% - 73,9% (2 hits to KO) forgot it doesn't have U-turn)

    -252 SpAtk Life Orb Meloetta Relic Song vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Infernape (-SpDef) : 79,18% - 93,52% (43,75% chance to OHKO after SR) Meloetta will use this if infernape has received some prior damage (and it will outspeed in pirouette form anyway)
    -252 SpAtk Life Orb Meloetta Psychic vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Infernape (-SpDef) : 190,44% - 224,23% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    -252 SpAtk Life Orb Meloetta Thunderbolt vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Infernape (-SpDef) : 67,24% - 79,18%
    Infernape definitely cannot switch on her.

    Edit: Still waiting for Temp V1's analysis though.


    Infernape vs Thundurus-T
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs 0 HP/4 Def Thundurus-T: 108,36% - 127,76% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/4 Def Thundurus-T: 48,49% - 57,19% (Guaranteed 2HKO after SR or 1 turn of LO) This is just bonus -for people who are afraid to miss) as you outspeed and OHKO anyway with stone edge.

    -252 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Infernape (-SpDef) : 110,58% - 130,03% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    -252 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Infernape (-SpDef) : 92,83% - 109,56% (56,25% chance to OHKO)
    -252 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Infernape (-SpDef) : 26,96% - 31,74% (3-4 hits to KO)
    -252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Infernape (-SpDef) : 53,92% - 63,48% (2 hits to KO)
    It can only come on predicted HP ice against Celebi.


    Infernape vs Metagross:
    -4 SpAtk Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Metagross: 122,8% - 144,23% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 252 HP/4 Def Metagross: 48,08% -56,32%. Means it cannot switch easily into CC to bullet punch you.

    -252 Atk Choice Band Metagross (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Infernape: 24,91% - 29,69%
    -252 Atk Choice Band Metagross (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def Infernape: 37,54% - 44,37% If you absolutely have to let it tank the bullet punch after the CC.
    -252 Atk Choice Band Metagross (+Atk) Meteor Mash vs 0 HP/0 Def Infernape: 62,46% - 73,72% (2 hits to KO)
    It can come on anything but Earthquake.


    Infernape vs Kyurem:
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 52 HP/0 Def Kyurem: 118,81% - 139,6% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    -220 SpAtk Kyurem (+SpAtk) Earth Power vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Infernape (-SpDef) : 106,48% - 125,6% (Guaranteed OHKO) means you can't threaten it with a sub up.


    Infernape vs Terrakion:
    -252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 148,61% - 174,61% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    -252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Terrakion: 60,37% - 70,59%
    -252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def Terrakion: 89,16% - 104,95% (31,25% chance to OHKO). Actually almost guaranteed OHKO because of LO recoil.

    -252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Infernape: 115,02% - 135,49% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    -252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs 0 HP/0 Def Infernape: 95,56% - 112,97% (75% chance to OHKO) It may want to use Stone Edge as we don't have any rock resist, it is a guaranteed OHKO after any previous damage (mostly LO recoil).
  19. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    Okay posted my Infernape analysis :)
  20. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Infernape looks solid, I'm supporting that over my Lando-T since it exploits nicely Team ginganinja's current lack of speed, does not need to set-up and many scarfers are already handled by the rest of our team.

    Gengar may have its merits since it's a great special attacker anyway, but they are not likely to pick a Spinner, so it won't see much use as a Spinblocker. Plus, Metagross can come in and Pursuit/BP relatively safe after you killed something, since Shadow Ball doesn't 2HKO, while Pursuit OHKOs after some residual damage.
    Also, not very important but you should use Black Sludge in place of Lefties: they could still pick a Trick user, and Black Sludge is slightly better in that regard.

    Slowbro is interesting, but they already have two strong special attackers with Electric coverage, so it seems risky. Meloetta can come in with its awesome SpD and fire off Thunders freely, threatening something with 60% paralysis chance.

    Toxicroak can be easily stopped by Team 1 with their last pick, so it's not a great option right now. The only relevant effect would be preventing a Toed pick, but I'm not exactly sure this is enough to choose him. Dry Skin is basically useless outside Rain, seeing their team, so it doesn't seem a great idea overall.

    Hydreigon is outsped by a good portion of Team ginganinja (Meloetta can change forme on the switch-in and cripple with CC, Terrakion and THundurus are naturally faster and can both hit hard), plus using Draco Meteor with a Substitute set seems counter-intuitive: you hide behind a Sub, fire off a powerful Draco Meteor, then what? You're sitting behind a Sub with -2 SpA, for my personal experience of Sub Hydreigon sets, using Dragon Pulse is far better since it allows you to attack repeatedly.
  21. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryday to keep me busy
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

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    Wow guys! Props to alexwolf, TempV1, and HolyAvatar for their team work in coming up with a pretty awesome Infernape set. As it stands, official credit goes to alexwolf. This avoids a tie between Temp V1 and Electrolyte as the representative for Team 2. I'd like to add a nod to Temp V1, whose work is certainly not diminished in this decision, as with only 13 posts he has had a great influence on Team 2! In other words, I deem Electrolyte the official representative for Team 2 and the one who will spar off versus ginganinja in the best of 3 match at the end of the next and final round! Now, it's time for voting.

    G-Von's Espeon

    Zacchaeus's Conkeldurr

    Skore's Volcarona

    Electrolyte's Salamence

    ganj4lF's Landorus-T

    Me So Shiny's Hydreigon

    SuperChillarmy's Toxicroak

    HolyAvatar's Slowbro

    alexwolf's and Temp V1's Infernape (list alexwolf in your vote) [HolyAvatar's calcs]

    Critiques and other suggestions (please read these posts before voting, they will influence your vote towards or against certain submissions):

    ganj4lF's critique of Conkeldurr

    ganj4lF's critique of Salamence / Volcarona

    alexwolf's ideas / suggestions

    ganj4lF's critiques on Infernape, Hydreigon, Slowbro, and Toxicroak

    (note that i did not include TyranitarAbuser's Gengar as he did not list the EV spread and I'm not going to assume anything)

    Please read each set and each critique very carefully before making your decision. Vote for one submission once. To vote, type the set poster's name in bold. For example, if I wanted alexwolf's / Temp V1's Infernape, I'd type alexwolf, and perhaps a congratulatory note for Electrolyte. No complaining about the sets submitted (you had your chance), no nominating other sets. Have at it!
  22. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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  23. Zacchaeus

    Zacchaeus
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Yeah after the critique I realized that my Conkeldurr was better before I put it on paper. And since I want a Fighting-type

    alexwolf
  24. HolyAvatar

    HolyAvatar

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  25. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Alexwolf / Temp V1

    It'd be kinda funny if I didn't vote for 'nape after suggesting him twice, huh?

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