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Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by NixHex, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. Shovel

    Shovel

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    I'm in love with the fact that everyone is using Torment randomly <3

    On a serious note, Shadow Tag is wonderful for a counter, and this set can easily stall out Life Orb (it's forced to attack), and Torment makes for an annoying surprise. Though, it's not really surprising anymore.

    Hidden Power Dark seems too dedicated. I don't think anything runs it. Hidden Power Bug Signal Beam might be viable still, seeing as it is used by some lower tier Psychics to hit other psychics. Look below for this being bad vvv
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Don't like anything that needs Stealth Rock not on the field in order to counter. Sure, Team #1 doesn't have SR yet on the team, but its safe to assume that they will, and I don't want to add a spinner to Team #2, especially when Team #1 can just add in a ghost and ugh, just centralises the whole thing.

    Not posting a counter, because I really like Latias as a solid counter, with perhaps Substitute / Reflect over HP Fire, just to avoid Team #1 using cheep Pursuit tactics to shut us down.
  3. Xelacalle

    Xelacalle

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    Torment wasn't so random, actually. I was pretty much just looking at the calcs (for Thunder, basically) and thinking this:

    Thunder 3HKO's most of the time. That means, all Gothitelle could do it Rest, Recycle, Rest, and stall Life Orb damage. All Meloetta would need is a crit or a lucky para. My original set was Psyshock / Thunderbolt / Recycle / Rest
    Eventually I figured Torment was the best way to avoid the 3HKO and reduce the chances of that para happening. Anyway, it does give Choice users problems too. Why not use it on a Shadow Tag poke, given the choice?

    (Actually, saying that Calm Mind is a viable option... Psychic / Calm Mind / Recycle / Sleep Talk with max Defence instead of SDef?)

    EDIT: Yes, Calm Mind is definitely viable in this situation. But with Gothitelle's poor speed and not-so-great bulk, is it worth it?
    (I will keep an eye on this thread and change the set in my post if people want me to. Or, someone else can post a CM Gothitelle. I think that's allowed?)

    EDIT2:
    I was worried about Steel types like Jirachi and Ferrothorn walling Latias even with some boosts (didn't calc it), which is why I went for HP Fire. I can always just edit it before the voting begins, though xP
  4. Shovel

    Shovel

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    Shadow Tag Torment is the way to go, for Torment.

    However, I have to go back to what I said before; Latias is a better counter to it. If you are going to edit, remember, you are allowed to Slash anyway. In the long run, you use your slash to determine what to do when comparing your team in the end to your opponents.
  5. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    Guys, remember that we're building a TEAM. Don't submit a set that's so specialized in countering Meloetta that it's useless against other teammates. We only have six slots, so we need to make good use of them. This is not simply an exercise of checking the opponent's mon, but also an exercise of Teambuilding; since you don't know what the opponent's going to throw at us, we need to cover our bases.

    I suggest NP Celebi

    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    - Nasty Plot
    - Giga Drain
    - Thunder Wave
    - Hidden Power Fire

    Enough Speed to beat Jolly Mamoswine & Adamant Lucario. Surprise T-Wave to paralyze dragons / Tornadus-T. Resists all Meloetta's moves except STAB Relic Song, which fails to 2HKO. Heatran walls this Celebi, but that means the opponent must add Heatran on a Drizzle team or forego Politoed and Meloetta's Thunder.

    EDIT @ Xelacalle: Or you can simply cripple Meloetta with T-Wave.
  6. Xelacalle

    Xelacalle

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    Apparently we aren't :(
    (Although I should think Blizzard/Ice Beam and Solarbeam/Energy Ball would be allowed for similar reasons.)


    I can't speak for anyone else, but I have attempted to justify all (three) of my sets for use in a team. The Celebi and Latias sets I posted are, as far as I know, fairly standard. I can see why you would think that Gothitelle is too specialised, but I have tried to give her more utility in the form of choosing Psychic and Torment over, say, Thunderbolt and Calm Mind (Which would hit Meloetta-A harder and prevent the 3HKO, respectively.)
    If it wasn't Gothitelle you had in mind then, well, sorry for bringing it up, but everyone else's sets seem mostly solid to me - both in countering Meloetta and in fitting onto a team.

    edit: Oh, and I like the Celebi set though. TWave on a Nasty Plot set is interesting.

    edit2: However you only have a chance to OHKO with Giga Drain on Meloetta-P with +2 after Life Orb recoil. If you were to switch into Melo-P as it Relic Songed, then Nasty Plot in another Relic Song, Meloetta-P would outspeed and KO before you had a chance to use Giga Drain. If you spammed Giga Drain, I don't think you would KO Meloetta either but that is more difficult to calc... Does anybody know of a calculator which allows you to do multiple turns, take into account HP Regain etc? That would be really handy >.>

    edit III:
    Choiced Keldeo runs it sometimes, to deal with Jellicent / Slowbro
  7. zpattack12

    zpattack12

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    Can we use Genesect as a counter, even though it isn't released as of now. It's released in like a day.
  8. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryday to keep me busy
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    That depends, can Genesect reliably counter Meloetta (without using Psychic, Genesect has 4mss as it is)? I can't see a reason why it would outclass any of the ones listed so far and voting hasn't started yet. In other words, wait until the next Pokemon.
  9. HiImGrey

    HiImGrey

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    Spiritomb @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
    Calm (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Dark Pulse
    - Hidden Power Fighting
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split

    Spiritomb can tank a Thunder (37.82 - 44.73%) on the switch in, then an additional Thunder before using Pain Split. It can then KO Meloetta with Dark Pulse (53.37 - 63.34%) after tanking an additional Thunder, thus countering Meloetta barring parahax. If Meloetta uses another move other than Thunder, all of which Spiritomb is immune to, on the switch-in, or Thunder misses, then that's even better.

    Hidden Power Fighting provides neutral coverage on everything not named Spiritomb or Sableye, whereas Will-O-Wisp burns in physical attackers that try to switch in.

    Although I have not done the damage calcs yet,this Spiritomb can likely wall every common OU Rapid Spinners except for rain boosted Hydro Pump from Starmie.
  10. Shining_Latios

    Shining_Latios

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    [​IMG]
    Dusclops @ Eviolite
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 Defense / 176 Special Defense
    Calm Nature
    Moves:
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss

    Calculations (open)

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Meloetta Thunder vs 252 HP/176 SpDef Dusclops (+SpDef): 25 - 29.57%
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Meloetta Psychic vs 252 HP/176 SpDef Dusclops (+SpDef): Psychic: 27.81 - 33.09% -- guaranteed 4HKO



    Dusclops's ghost typing means Close Combat and Relic Song don't even affect him and the combination of Eviolite and his amazing defense stats allows him to take on any of Meloetta's farily easily. Dusclops can then Toxic Meloetta and ToxicStall using Rest. Sleep Talk allows Dusclops to attack while sleeping and if lucky, hit Meloetta with a Seismic Toss, for decent damage. Duscops also serves as a good tank in general, due to it having both a high Physical and Special defense being boosted even further due to Eviolite. This will help Dusclops cripple common sweepers with Toxic while healing off any damage or status with Rest.
  11. Pocket

    Pocket GOJIRA
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    Shovel, my caution was not really towards you but towards the people who are suggesting gimmicks like HP Bug Cresselia and specially-defensive Spiritomb just to hard-counter Meloetta.
  12. android

    android

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    Cresselia learns Signal Beam, which has 5 higher base power than Hidden Power.

    And as Pocket said, the set is a bit too specific.
  13. Shovel

    Shovel

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    To be honest, I didn't even attempt to look at Cresselia's movepool; I gave my opinion on Hp Dark Cresselia, and tried to suggest something similar to what Musharna does, though the set is better off in Nu. It's still not total dedication, for the fact that there are other Psychics that run Psychic/Bug, so why not Cress.

    I still stand by the fact that Latias is better at this, and Celebi too. Especially T-Wave Nasty Plot Celebi, ultimately because it benefits the whole team; Thunder Wave/Nasty Plot on the switch to take on whatever happens to come in. (It is assumed right now that both teams have an equally good prediction skill, therefore will know what to switch into/what move to use on the switch).

    That is to say, I make that assumption as I made the assumption of Stealth Rocks, which was still a little bit iffy.

    Edit: Changed previous posts, slashing out details that sucked, but not getting rid of them to ensure people dont make the same mistakes ^^
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Dude that calculation looks wrong. It makes no fucking sense for a STAB LO CC, coming from an attack stat of 128, only 3KOs Ferrothorn, which is weak to CC. I know from experience that Scarf Terrakion hits around 75-85% ish, so I would expect Meloetta to hit the same damage with a LO attached (similar attack stats and all). You might want to run those calcs again cos that makes no sense at all, for CC doing that little.

    EDIT

    I get: Close Combat (Step Forme): 294-346 (83.52 - 98.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, with Relic Song doing 14.48 - 16.76%. This means that basically, Relic Song + CC KOs. Its also worth noting that Meloetta in its Aria Forme should be 2KOing Ferrothorn with CC anyway so I really have no idea how you got your calcs so badly wrong. Maybe I calced it wrong myself but I don't think I missed anything?
  15. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    I just recalced the whole thing again - you're absolutely right. I have no idea what went wrong during my calcs o_O

    Anyway, I'll stop now before I make a fool out of myself any further.
  16. CrackinSkulls

    CrackinSkulls

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    OK everyone i feel like i need to step in here and explain this game a little better. I am currently seeing entries like this which makes me go
    [​IMG]




    The idea of this thread is NOT a counter that pokemon thread. It is a teambuilding game where pokemon are suggested for there respective team. At the end of the day these two teams will battle each other. We want to win this battle. So how do we ensure that... we make each set on our team counter our opponents and be as uncounterable as possible so our opponents are hard pressed to counter it with there next addition. Essentially we want to beat our opponent by countering them and preventing them from countering us. I feel that currently people are not understanding this. In the above Dusclops example, do we actually want to build a team around Dusclops!? This gives the opponent hundreds of options to choose from, Tyranitar which is a HUGE advantage because of sand, hell even a Bisharp becomes possible and very tough to counter. In short when you guys start a team do you honestly go "hmm lets make a team around chansey".

    You guys are all intelligent people, use your intelligence, wit and cunning to accomplish this task by trapping your opponent just as you would in a match and using your match honed prediction to ensnare your opponent in a sticky web of cunning. Predict their choices and act upon them, play mind games, this game is supposed to bring out the best of our battle honed minds. If we are resorting to using Dusclops and Cresselia our opponent has us on the back foot in the first round from where they can dominate, bully and force into submission. So cunning OU players out there use your match skills to outpredict, outplay and beat the opponent. To quote Poppy in the Ubers thread " Pick discreetly, with the intention to bait, befoul, bludgeon, barf upon, and generally bring waste to the opposition."

    If you guys are struggling to understand the concept have a look at the ubers thread or the previous OU one . Anyway i hope i could help you guys understand the game and keep this thread a little cleaner. Don't post nonsense posts keep them simple, clean and easy to follow. Good luck with the game.
  17. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    The problem here is not lack of understanding nor teambuilding capabilities - it's Meloetta herself.

    Because she can hit hard from both ends of the spectrum, has high stats and almost unresisted coverage; only a handful of pokes that can take both physical and special hits actually "counter" Meloetta; so we naturally have to restort to them.
  18. DrunkDemon

    DrunkDemon

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    Meloetta's mixed abilities do make finding a counter very difficult, but there are options that are actually useful in OU outside of countering Meloetta; Latias and Celebi are examples of this. Cresselia and Dusclops could do good against Meloetta, but if we don't need them, we probably shouldn't be using them. And we don't need them.

    So far it seems to me like Celebi is the best option against Meloetta. None of it's attacks do very much damage, and the danger of Sleep or Paralysis is reduced by Natural Cure. Since a the defensive and Nasty Plot sets both take Meloetta's attacks well, Nasty Plot is probably the better option since it's offensive presence makes it harder to counter.
  19. Ithilanor

    Ithilanor

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    The three that I find most appealing are Deoxys-D, SubCM Latias, and Celebi. Celebi probably gives us the most flexibility, but Deoxys-D is a great spikestacker, and SubCM Latias is a wonderful pivot that can tear through teams in the late game.
  20. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryday to keep me busy
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    Okay, this has been a very big mess and I hope we can learn from the manner of this post and CrackinSkull's post how we can fix this mess in the next round. Voting is going to be tight this round, because I'm only allowing 4 of the suggested sets.

    Pocket's Celebi

    Jimbon's Deoxys-D

    Xelacalle's Latias

    Shovel's Dragonite

    Now, pay attention. Post the username of the set listed above in bold. Please refrain from making any extra remarks. Saying "I'm voting for Latias but it would be better with Psychic" is unacceptable; these are the sets we are voting on and they are non-negotiable.

    For example, if you want to vote for Pocket's Celebi, simply post this.

    Pocket

    That's it. That's literally what your post should be. Do not post multiple times. You have an undetermined amount of time to submit your vote. In 24 hours I will be at a concert and I don't want to keep you guys hanging all weekend, so I may close the voting rather early.
  21. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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  22. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

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  23. Ithilanor

    Ithilanor

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  24. HiImGrey

    HiImGrey

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  25. NixHex

    NixHex A new vice president erryday to keep me busy
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    Oh, another rule, if your set is listed, don't vote.

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