Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]

Right now, I think Hydreigon and Thundurus are our best options - they give us offensive potential while keeping our team flexible in regards to weather / choiced mons etc.

Also, regarding scarf Landorus - I initially considered him; and turns out U-turn cannot OHKO Celebi; and an unboosted Giga Drain takes away over half of Lando's health.
U-turn: 296-352 (83.38 - 99.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Giga Drain: 195-231 (61.12 - 72.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Which, honestly, is a pain in the ass; because we require Celebi to have taken prior damage, or she will most likely proceed to heal up with +2 Giga Drains and Leftovers.

Concerning Deoxys - it's a cool mon and all; but our opponent only has to pick a relatively fast Taunt-user and we're done for. For this reason, I would change Night Shade for Magic Coat. While having no attacking moves turns us into "taunt bait"; Magic Coat ensures that, with good prediction, our opponent's taunts will turn against them, giving us free turns to set up our hazards.

EDIT @ below: Deoxys-D isn't going to be dishing out damage nor staying out for long due to lack of Recover. After he's set up his hazards, all he can do is take a hit or two and die; since he won't do anything else. Magic Coat at least lets us bounce status and such back - but that's just my opinion.
 
Concerning Deoxys - it's a cool mon and all; but our opponent only has to pick a relatively fast Taunt-user and we're done for. For this reason, I would change Night Shade for Magic Coat. While having no attacking moves turns us into "taunt bait"; Magic Coat ensures that, with good prediction, our opponent's taunts will turn against them.
The Taunt users that outspeed Deoxys-D and see common use in OU are Gengar, Gliscor (sometimes), Infernape, Tornadus/-T and Thundurus-T. Froslass and Whimsicott as well, but neither of them are seen commonly enough in OU to warrant the switch to Magic Coat, I feel. Plus I'm not keen at all of leaving Deoxys-D with zero offensive options. Besides, Deoxys-D has no place staying in against the above threats.
 
Why is everyone so concerned about status? Every team has status users. And it's not like slow celebi/heatran with only fire/grass coverage will force a lot of switches and nab them momentum. More than that, it is an offensive celebi so KOing won't be that hard.
From there we can run defensive options or offensive options.
Defensive options:
-Aromatherapy
-T-Wave immune special attacker
-Natural cure
Offensive options:
-Guts (conkeldurr/heracross)
-A pokemon that can switch in one of the two and KO both pokemon (the infernape is a good example as it is immune to wow and puts offensive pressure)

You don't need to be able to switch into both pokemons. Switching in one and making the other unable to switch in is enough imo.
 

Electrolyte

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Gengar, Infernape, and Thundurus-T don't actually commonly use Taunt, which is why I think no Night Shade is not a good idea. Without it, Team 1 can just pick a Bouncer such as Espeon to fuck us up. Night Shade relegates that problem, somewhat. And, speaking of which, if we did have Deoxys-D without Night Shade, SubCM Espeon would immediately be a huge threat to Team 2. Keep Night Shade. Magic Coat only hits Sableye.

ALSO: Having Natural Cure doesn't exactly help you with status. T-Wave still cripples you as you switch in, hindering you from stopping Celebi's sweep. The only pokemon that can handle Celebi BUT also have the ability Natural Cure are Blissey/Chansey (Starmie is OHKO'd by Giga Drain)
Infernape definitely can't take a T-Wave, so that really restricts it to coming in on Heatran. But then, do you want to risk being burned by Lava Plume?
 

ginganinja

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Why is everyone so concerned about status?
Because when we want to counter something we don't want our counter to be crippled by Thunder Wave or a Burn? Its this fact that (and iv said time and time again) that makes non Lum Mence and Infernape not optimal when they both get raped by Thunder Wave. Technically, they "win" but I don't really consider it a victory, especially as Celebi can now safely switch out, having crippled Infernape for the rest of the match. Basically, you lost that round.

You do make a good point I guess tho. We technically don't have to switch into both (although it would be nice). If I had to choose, I would prefer if it can switch into Celebi unharmed (ie no crippling para), since thats currently blocking a Meloetta sweep.

Gengar, Infernape, and Thundurus-T don't actually commonly use Taunt, which is why I think no Night Shade is not a good idea.
Fully agree with this but just wanted to make the point that just because its not common, doesn't prevent Team 2 from using it. Heck, NP + T-Wave Celebi is not at all common in my experience. If Team 2 wants to run Taunt to stop Deoxys D, then they will run Taunt, no matter if its rare on the ladder or not.
 

ganj4lF

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Good points, but I just want to bring up that when I envisioned rain possibly getting used, it was always going to be as a final pick in order to minimise a full on counter team. Therefore, I am really happy selecting pokemon that work well in rain, but not actually NEED rain to be up in order to be effective. Team 2 can add a Swift Swimmer if they really want, but that just means we don't run rain, and they get stuck with a useless pokemon like Kingdra, which we can exploit. They can run Specially Defensive Jirachi if they want, however quite frankly nothing is stopping us from adding a counter for it, and still bring able to run rain if we wanted. Besides, if they run Specially Defensive Jirachi, thats 3 pokemon Thundurus-T can destroy if it gets a NP boost, AND blunts their offensive potential. Quite frankly, keeping our options open with something like Thundurus is perfectly fine, it keeps Team 2 guessing, whereas something like Heatran sends up a red flag that we are not using Rain, which removes the possibility of a big threat to Team 2. So long as Rain is an option, its going to play on the minds on the pokemon selected for Team 2, giving Team 1 a large advantage.

tl;dr

Lets use shit that works in and out of rain until we are certain of our direction (which will be at the end game basically). Makes for cool mindgames which make for a fun exercise!!!
Well, good points. Even if Heatran single handedly shut down Team 2 right now, Thundurus is probably better in perspective, since forces them to play mindgames with us. I still have some ideas in mind to avoid this kind of mindgames, but I want to see what gets picked in those two rounds by Team 1 first, and then we'll discuss again about that.
 
Gengar, Infernape, and Thundurus-T don't actually commonly use Taunt, which is why I think no Night Shade is not a good idea. Without it, Team 1 can just pick a Bouncer such as Espeon to fuck us up. Night Shade relegates that problem, somewhat. And, speaking of which, if we did have Deoxys-D without Night Shade, SubCM Espeon would immediately be a huge threat to Team 2. Keep Night Shade. Magic Coat only hits Sableye.
I know they aren't common users, but they ARE users nonetheless and need to be taken into account. Considering we are picking Pokémon designed to counter the others, it's a possibility that a SR/Taunt Infernape is picked as it is a sure-fire way to shut down some of the team members.
 
Just for fun 228 SpA timid Camerupt with fire blast/earth power OhKoes both and is immune to both thunder wave and WoW. I know it is not viable at all, and could just be T-waved with his super low base speed.
 
I guess I'm stealing Xelacalle's post formatting since it's really awesome! ...

... Even if they don't do so, they still can run something like SpD Jirachi without fear, since Fire weakness is substantially removed, and can easily check quite a big portion of common rain abusers.
Well I'm glad that something I did on a whim turned out so well xP
And I can tell you right now that Jirachi doesn't like coming in on rain-boosted Hydro Pump from just about anything that carries it (specs Keldeo can actually OHKO)

For everything else...


I really like Heracross. It's a cool Poke that doesn't see much usage in OU but it can still be useful. It also hits pretty hard, and has some reasonable type synergy with Meloetta. I don't really see why he would only work in the rain, though, as some people are saying, but I agree that he benefits from the reduced fire damage.


Nidoking is also pretty cool, and also has little usage, but as previously stated he can't come in on Celebi if it NPs. Ice Beam or Flamethrower won't OHKO, and Celebi and OHKOs back with a +2 Giga Drain, getting much of its health back. The only type synergy I can see is a Fighting resistance, but Nidoking is also Psychic-weak.


The new Salamence can't reliably come in onto either Celebi or Heatran as it is crippled by both Burn and Paralysis and doesn't have the Lum Berry to heal it. Now, I know we can just use a Heal Bell or Aromatherapy user (in fact, I may suggest one next round), but it means more switching if Salamence is unfortunate - meaning probably more Stealth Rock damage.


I agree with every reason given to use Deoxys-D. However, personally I just think that we're better off being sure we've countered Celebi and Heatran first. Deoxys is definitely going to be a good candidate later on, as it as some synergy with Meloetta. First, as stated, it gets up hazards, helping Meloetta sweep and also racking up damage as she forces switches. Deoxys also Resists Fighting and Psychic, and Meloetta is Immune to ghost. However, there is the shared Bug/Dark weaknesses of Aria forme and Deoxys to think about.


I have the same problems as I usually do with Scarfers as with Landorus. While it is immune to T-Wave, it isn't going to enjoy Will-O-Wisp. It also can't quite OHKO Celebi, who will proceed to get health back with Giga Drain. While it has the same Flying-type synergies as Gliscor, Thundurus and Salamence do, neither Pokemon really helps the other out in terms of walls (except Skarmory, but that's a given at this point.)
 

I agree with every reason given to use Deoxys-D. However, personally I just think that we're better off being sure we've countered Celebi and Heatran first. Deoxys is definitely going to be a good candidate later on, as it as some synergy with Meloetta. First, as stated, it gets up hazards, helping Meloetta sweep and also racking up damage as she forces switches. Deoxys also Resists Fighting and Psychic, and Meloetta is Immune to ghost. However, there is the shared Bug/Dark weaknesses of Aria forme and Deoxys to think about.
I get where you're coming from, but you're forgetting that Meloetta has a Bug/Dark resistance herself when in Pirouette form. The whole idea behind Meloetta is to keep shifting in-out of her different forms to force switches and cover her own weaknesses. Something to bear in mind. Agree with every other point you made in that post, though! I'd love to see Nidoking get some lovin'.
 

ganj4lF

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I really like Heracross. It's a cool Poke that doesn't see much usage in OU but it can still be useful. It also hits pretty hard, and has some reasonable type synergy with Meloetta. I don't really see why he would only work in the rain, though, as some people are saying, but I agree that he benefits from the reduced fire damage.
Well, Celebi's HP Fire 2HKOs after SR, and Lava Plume deals 75% minimum, having a chance to OHKO after SR; so, without rain, you can switch in only once if Team 2 predicts correctly, and they can easily pick something like Skarmory/Gliscor/<insert sturdy physical wall> that can nullify any attempt to sweep with ease. It's not that Heracross cannot work outside rain, but if we really want to counter Team 2 with it, right now, we need rain.
 
Well, Celebi's HP Fire 2HKOs after SR, and Lava Plume deals 75% minimum, having a chance to OHKO after SR; so, without rain, you can switch in only once if Team 2 predicts correctly, and they can easily pick something like Skarmory/Gliscor/<insert sturdy physical wall> that can nullify any attempt to sweep with ease. It's not that Heracross cannot work outside rain, but if we really want to counter Team 2 with it, right now, we need rain.
Thank-you for clarifying that for me. I did the calcs for myself just now and I agree that rain would be needed to make this an effective counter. Which does reduce our options somewhat!
 

NixHex

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Okay, it's that time again. Thank you guys for the overwhelming amount of submissions! This round, I'm going to allow people who submitted sets vote. There's been enough discussion already and it seems like people are willing not to vote immediately for their own submissions. I'm really impressed at the participation during this round.

Here are some must read posts. Please read these before you vote, there are some very good points made in these posts and it may just influence your vote, which is a good thing!

Xelacalle critiquing a bunch of suggested sets
more ginganinja advice
Electrolyte's advice
ganj4lF critiquing everything

Here are the submissions:
Electrolyte's Gliscor

ganj4lF's Heatran

namehtmas's Mamoswine

Skore's Gallade

AuraRayquaza's Terrakion

HolyAvatar's Infernape

G-Von's Salamence

ginganinja's Thundurus-T (Nasty Plot)

ClubbingSealCub's Hydreigon

Zacchaeus's Darmanitan

Kiyo's Landorus-I

EonX-'s Thundurus-T (Agility)

Pocket's Heracross

Sharpteeth's Nidoking

CrackinSkulls Salamence

PapaBearAds's Deoxys-D

Please only vote once. Please follow the correct post format. If you wanted to vote for ginganinja's Thundurus-T, your post should look like this:

ginganinja


That's all it should be. Do not bring up more sets, do not complain about any of the sets that have been submitted. Remember, those who submitted can vote this round.

You have roughly two days to vote. I'll cut it off early when activity is completely dead. Have fun!

Edit: What I meant was ANYONE may vote. I just meant to include those who submitted sets this time.
 

ganj4lF

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Well, I guess that voting for myself is kinda mean, and Thundurus is very solid as candidate, so my vote goes to:

ginganinja
 

NixHex

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Just so there's no misunderstanding, anyone can vote, not just those who submitted their sets. LucaroarkZ, I undeleted your post so your vote counts.