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Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by NixHex, Jul 7, 2012.

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  1. Marzbar

    Marzbar

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    [​IMG]
    @Leftovers
    Nature: Calm
    Ability: Natural Cure
    252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
    ~ Spikes
    ~ Leaf Storm / Giga Drain / Energy Ball
    ~ Stun Spore
    ~ HP Ice / HP Fire

    Keldeo can't do anything to it. I suppose you could run Leech Seed on the set as well. Or change the EV's a bit.
  2. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I believe i have found 2 counters: 1 viable while the other ehhhh....he works against Keldeo at least.

    [​IMG]
    Quagsire @ Leftovers | Unaware
    Sassy | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    ~ Scald
    ~ Recover
    ~ Yawn / Toxic
    ~ Earthquake

    I took this straight from his OU Specially Defensive set. His ability counters almost all boosting threats not banned. I believe he is a decent counter to Keldeo. He can't be 2HKO'd by any of his moves and then scare Keldeo off with Yawn or he could opt to use recover till Hydro Pump misses or has enough health to useToxic and start stalling him.

    252 SpA Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252+ SpD Quagsire: 38.57 - 45.68%
    252 SpA Secret Sword vs 252 HP/252+ SpD Quagsire: 32.99 - 39.08%
    252 SpA HP Ghost vs 252 HP/252+ SpD Quagsire: 14.97 - 17.76%

    0 SpA Scald vs 0 HP/4 SpD Keldeo: 15.47 - 18.26%:
    0 Attk Earthquake vs 0 HP/4 SpD Keldeo: 31.88 - 38.08%

    Now it is time for the beast himself!

    [​IMG]

    Tropis @ Leftovers |
    Careful | 252 HP/4 Def/252 SpD
    ~ Roost
    ~ Leaf Blade/Aerial Ace
    ~ Toxic
    ~ Earthquake

    YES, I understand that this set is geared towards beating Keldeo. However, I would say it is a decent counter/check toward other bulky water pokemon, especially those who are 4 times weak to Leaf Blade. Here are the calcs:

    +1 252 SpA Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252+ SpD Tropius: 28.35 - 33.58%
    +1 252 SpA Secret Sword vs 252 HP/252+ SpD Tropius: 29.85 - 35.32%
    +1 252 SpA HP Ghost vs 252 HP/252+ SpD Tropius: 22.38 - 26.36%

    Keldeo cannot 2HKO Tropius after 1 CM boost. Secret Sword is his strongest move against him which will knock Tropius down to about 40% on the switch and then about 11% before roosting back up to 67%. He can continue trying to do this and Toxic Keldeo or attack him at the right time. Lets see how that might go:

    0 Attk Aerial Ace vs +1 0 HP/0 SpD Keldeo: 37.77 - 45.2%
    0 Attk Leaf Blade vs +1 0 HP/0 SpD Keldeo: 48.29 - 57.58%
    0 Attk Earthquake vs +1 0 HP/0 SpD Keldeo: 17.64 - 21.05%

    EQ is there for coverage against steels. Aeriel Ace can hit other fighting-, bug-, and grass-types for super-effective damage. As you can see, Tropius has a 92.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock damage using Leaf Blade.

    Honestly, the set that you will see most often is the Quagsire set. I mean, he at least has a UU (and OU) analysis made for him while Tropius doesn't. DO NOT SLEEP ON THIS DINO THOUGH. His typing is perfect for taking on Keldeo along with some other threats that people have yet to realize as well!
  3. Groudon ex

    Groudon ex

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    Unboosted Surf in rain does 55.58 - 65.23% though. =(
    Mind you, the OP didn't specify any weather conditions - although in practical situations Keldeo would most likely be accompanied by Drizzle support.
  4. G-Von

    G-Von

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    Yea i was worried about the rain factor. The only reason why I did not include it in the damage calcs was because it wasnt listed for the Keldeo post, while SpecsTran was listed with sun support.
  5. wobbahax

    wobbahax

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    Hands down the best here, although i don't see the sense in running recover + rapid spin. LO starmie is meant to punch holes in teams fast, not taking 10 damage using a 20 base power move. BTW, 34 isn't divisible by 4, try 36 lol. And yes, this set is completely walled by pokemon like ferrothorn, jellicent, politoed, etc. Perhaps running thunderbolt or ice beam would be beneficial.
  6. Rackham

    Rackham

    Joined:
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    Tried and tested counter for me...

    [​IMG]
    Toxicroak @Black sludge
    Ability: Dry Skin
    244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def
    Adamant
    ~Taunt / Protect
    ~Bulk Up
    ~Drain Punch
    ~Sucker Punch

    Can't be touched by Hydro Pump, Sacred Sword does poor damage. HP Ghost can 3HKO at +1 (assuming you come in on the Calm Mind, here) and 4(-5)HKOs at +0. However, Toxicroak can recover HP with Drain Punch and Protect, and if rain is up then Dry Skin will mean you can recover an extra 12.5% HP each turn, meaning that Keldeo is not going past you any time soon.
  7. alphatron

    alphatron Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!

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    Funny enough that tropius counter could run harvest, rest, and a setup move in order to turn keldeo into setup fodder. You're already running a tropius...so go all the way!

    [​IMG] @ leftovers
    Nature: Bold
    Ability: rain dish
    Evs: 252 hp/216 def/40 sp. Atk
    -Acid Spray
    -hydro pump
    -Giga drain
    -Rapid spin

    Personally, tentacruel fails tremendously if you're trying to have him set up toxic spikes, rapid spin, and spread scald burn all at the same time. Since many teams don't care about toxic spikes (due to a massive spike in amoongus or other Pokemon choices) I decided to just make tentacruel a spinner and leave it at that. The EV spread is one that I've been messing around with for a while so its subject to change.

    Acid spray works wonders for discouraging any kind of setup against tentacruel. It also helps to prevent other bulky waters from simply switching in and doing as they please. Jellicient and gadtrodon for example do not like being used as giga drain fodder after a -2. And neither will keldeo who is unable to 2hko you with a +1 surf in rain. At worst, keldeo will be at negative 1 after an acid spray. You'll still most likely 2hko him when you're dealing 49%-57% damage. You're even tougher to kill with secret sword and rain dish helps to ease your pains. Outside of rain, keldeo has no chance to beat you either.

    If you're wondering about hydro pump, it's there for abusing the rain after my opponent got a -2. Sometimes, walls need to be able to put up some offensive presence. Ice beam/blizzard on hail teams can be used instead of dragons. If not for the loss of bulk, I'd probably EV him to outspeed adamant breloom.
  8. WaterBomb

    WaterBomb because exploding camels wasn't enough
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Battle Server Moderator
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    Going with the obligatory Venusaur here...

    [​IMG]
    Venusaur @ Leftovers
    Chlorophyll
    Bold Nature
    192 HP/252 Def/52 SpD/12 Spe
    IVs: 2 Atk/30 SpA/30 Spe
    -Substitute
    -Leech Seed
    -HP Fire
    -Sleep Powder

    this is taken directly from the smogon SubSeed set for Venusaur. It's particularly effective because +0 Keldeo just barely misses breaking Venusaur's sub with this spread (Surf does 20.91-24.92%), meaning Venusaur can come in on anything and do whatever it wants, even without Sun up. Even at +1, Keldeo does 31.51-36.96% with Surf, meaning Venusaur can still come in and begin the SubSeed loop. Venusaur only begins to run into trouble if rain is up AND Keldeo is at +1, but if you let that happen you're screwed anyway. Obviously Venusaur needs to win through passive damage because HP Fire isn't going to do jack, but there's no way Keldeo wins this battle unless the Venusaur user is incredibly stupid.

    EDIT: wow Venusaur begins 4 of the lines there on the page...weird.
  9. Bogmire

    Bogmire

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    [​IMG]
    Gyarados@Leftovers
    Intimidate
    Adamant nature
    56 HP/248 Atk/204 Spe
    -Dragon Dance
    -Bounce
    -Waterfall
    -Substitute

    The strongest attack Keldeo has against Gyarados is Secret Sword which hits against it's weaker physical defense, which is only doing 36.52% - 42.90% at +1 , meanwhile Gyarados deals 100% damage with unboosted Bounce (of course, you could just go for the DD and outspeed for the KO the next turn)
  10. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

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    Reserving Amoonguss now- will post more later. I'm in NYC, using Wifi from McDonalds on my phone, and I don't want to miss my chance :P
    Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
    Calm Nature
    252 HP, 40 Def, 216 Sp Def
    ~Spore
    ~Clear Smog
    ~Giga Drain
    ~HP Ice
    Keldeo can barely touch this mushroom.
    Max Sp Atk +1 Secret sword: 33.33-39% (3HKO)
    Max Sp Atk +1 Hydro pump: 32-38% (3HKO)
    Max Sp Atk +1 Hidden Power Ghost: 25-29%

    Amoonguss can reply by Sporing, Clear Smogging the Sp Def boosts, and Giga Draining the pony to death.
  11. Sambobz

    Sambobz

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    lol @ amoongus countering everything.

    sorry this is a little late but... max spdef ttar counters scarf starmie.
    it takes up to two hydro pumps and koes back with pursuit(87.5) or crunch(100).

    speed>108 + psyshock = win
    Alakazam just happens to be my favorite, ignoring +6, lol.
  12. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

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    love that tentacruel set alphatron. as pure spinner it's gotta be one of the coolest i've seen; i had no idea cruel got acid spray and it is a kickass move. if i'm not mistaken though, cruel only needs 16 speed evs to outrun adamant breloom (who has 239 speed)? after all, you only need 32 speed evs to outrun tyranitar. i wouldn't rate that as a significant loss of bulk. any particular use for those 40 satk evs btw?
  13. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    Obvious with a rain team, since Keldeo is sometimes on one, it is easily to keep the weather.

    [​IMG]

    Vaporeon @ Leftovers
    248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold
    Hydration

    - Rest
    - Haze/Roar
    - Scald
    - Toxic

    Calcs:

    Secred Sword +0 29%-34%

    Surf(in rain) +0 27%-31%

    Also I calculated Hydro Pump

    Hydro Pump(in rain) +0 32-39%

    Hydro Pump's PP can be stalled out easily since there are only 8


    The drawbacks are, if Keldeo is on sand team , and Roar is generally better on a such slow pokemon like Vaporeon.

    If Electrolyte got delayed a bit, I would have put Amoonguss, reading posts I was thinking, why nobody has put Amoonguss yet?
  14. preliator

    preliator

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    Tropius wouldnt be a good counter cuz most Keldeo carrie Icy Wind this days...its also weak to SR; to a Keldeo w/o Icy Wind it would be a great counter, I aggree.

    I still think our little "NU" (I still can't believe this thing is still NU... its more overused than Extremkiller Arceus in UBER's...o_O") Amoonguss friend here is still the best counter to Keldeo... resisting both STABS, Icy Wind wont kill it, access to Clear Smog - job done.

    So an Amoonguss Set like this would be best I think:

    Amoonguss (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spore
    - Clear Smog // Stun Spore
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice / Ground]

    Spore to but it to sleep; Clear Smog to reset CM's or Stun Spore to para and kill it off with Giga Drain. HP depends on your own need. I'm using HP Ground on it alot cuz fire types allways loved to switch into it (Heatran! Tales, Ape and friends...)

    Tentacruel kind'a walls Keldeo as well. Resisting its both STAB's as well, even resisting Icy Wind, HP Dark wont do much Dmg thx to its natural s.def bulk.
    Specialy this set (in rain) walls Keldeo all day (exkeept Keldo carries HP electric which I did not even faced yet):

    Tentacruel (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Toxic
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald

    You can simply toxic stall Keldeo to death... and Resto-Chesto Keldeo.... never seen b4.
  15. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    YAY! Honestly you can't imagine how happy I am that my Hydration Rest set is quickly becoming the standard :P what with all the rain flying around and more people seeing what it can do. Of course I should mention that outside of rain Hydra-Rest Vaporeon is a bit shaky due to not really being able to hurt Keldeo, just force it out with Roar, and not being able to heal without putting itself out of commission until the rain comes back, a big risk when you're taking 33% from an unboosted attack (on a Pokemon that could very well be boosted as you come in). That being said, like you said this is most likely going to be in rain anyway so point is somewhat moot.

    Anyway, wondering when we're going to move onto the next Pokemon to counter is going to be, I think we're all kind of done with Keldeo for now.
  16. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    @ Jimera0, Vaporeon without Toxic can try to burn Keldeo with Scald, but without Toxic, the mermaid has a hard time couting a lot of things.

    I tried Salamence but it is more a check than something, Salamence isn't capable to KO Keldeo even with +max attack with Outrage(~77-~88%) counting SR damage.

    Salamence is capable, with a -Sp Def nature with a Scarf and SR damage(on Salamence) to KO Keldeo without rain, but counting 2 max damages, survives with 1% of HP
    Since Keldeo is usually with rain or sand support(Tyranitar removes Starmie, Lati twins...), isn't very reliable.

    Physically defensive Salamence is a counter, without Rain, not much reliable.
    Dragon Tail without any investment does 28-33%

    Another counter:

    Again, rain support form the frog is mandatory(I know we have to suppose that there is no weather on the field, but if we suppose that, there are things unusable)

    [​IMG]

    Parasect @ Leftovers
    Dry Skin
    252 HP /160 Def / 96 Sp Def

    - Spore
    - Leech Seed
    - Substitute
    - X-Scissor/Protect

    With rain support, Keldeo dies before doing almost nothing.
    Parasect recovers 18.75% every turn in rain, 26,75% when Keldeo is leeched. So, 16 turns of stalling with Substitute, the 16 turns that need Parasect to kill Keldeo with Leech Seed(Parasect can alternate between Substitute and Protect the first turns)
    I don't count Spore, because the Sleep Clause that means that Parasect would not be able to put to sleep another mon.

    Parasect is a decent check to Keldeo in sand, but it likely that the mushroom has to use Spore in order to survive.

    I forgot to say this, Keldeo does 20-24% to Parasect with Secret Sword.

    //

    I have thought about other possibilities, but mostly rely on another weather(Exeggutor, Victribeel...) or are outclassed(Vileplume))

    I have thought about Milotic with a Physically defensive set, but it is mostly a check because Secret Sword does 30-33%
    Almost 2KO, it's like looking for a critical after using Recover all the time.

    //

    Breloom Scarf has a little chance to be KOed with Hydro Pump after SR damage and can KO Keldeo with Bullet Seed twice(75 base power with Technician) almost all the time, counting there is SR on the Keldeo's field.
  17. NixHex

    NixHex what is béisbol
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    All right, so we all figured out Keldeo's obvious flaws (can't hit flying Dragons and Jellicent/Toxicroak with the same Hidden Power, is sorta kinda frail, etc). This next Pokemon is an underrated threat in singles (not in doubles, certainly) that has a ton going for it. I bring you, SubPunch Toxicroak!

    Weather: Rain
    Toxicroak @ Leftovers
    [​IMG]
    Nature: Adamant
    Ability: Dry Skin
    244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def
    -Substitute
    -Focus Punch
    -Sucker Punch
    -Ice Punch

    Remember when we were talking about Keldeo-R and how it can basically only hurt this guy with Hidden Power? Have you ever read a sentence that reads something like "...hitting everything but Toxicroak for neutral damage?" Toxicroak may seem frail but its ability, Dry Skin, combined with Leftovers allows it to create Substitutes and recover the damage merely by existing. It also has plenty of resistances, to some of the most common move-types in the game, most importantly Fighting. With the added protection of a Substitute, Toxicroak has a free turn to whomp your opponent with a STAB-boosted 150 Base Power Focus Punch. Incidentally, Toxicroak has that amazing Fighting/Dark coverage that "hits everything but Toxicroak for neutral damage", with Ice Punch there to hit our Flying / Dragon friends. Switch into SubPunch Toxicroak with care...
  18. Skore

    Skore

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    Are you sure the EVs on that thing are correct?
  19. NixHex

    NixHex what is béisbol
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    good catch lol, fixed.
  20. Skore

    Skore

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    [​IMG]

    Sableye@Leftovers
    Prankster
    Careful Nature
    252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
    ~Will O Wisp
    ~Night Shade
    ~Taunt
    ~Recover

    252Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 252HP/0Def Sableye (+Def): 29% - 35% (90 - 107 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    252Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252HP/0Def Sableye (+Def): 31% - 37% (96 - 114 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.


    Note that is Sableye runs Defense EV's as per the set I posted or a +Defense Nature it reduces damage taken further (couldn't figure out how to do it on the damage calculator).

    Come in on anything, Nightshade the sub away. Taunt or Burn, Recover off the damage or Taunt/Burn the predicted switch.
  21. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

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    [​IMG]
    Slowbro @ Leftovers
    252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    ~Scald
    ~Psychic
    ~Ice beam
    ~Slack Off
    Defensive tank Slowbro is a great counter, taking only aboug 40% from Sucker punch. Since SP is only going to be a 3HKO, yet Psychic is a 2HKO (or a OHKO if Toxicroak is not behind a sub), you will always win this war. After 2SP's, you're brought down to about 10%, and you can just switch out and regain 30% from Regenerator. You could even Slack Off on the second turn, going back to 90% while the opponent fails to touch you with Sucker Punch.
    Calculations:
    4 SpA Psychic to 244/0 Toxicroak: 150-178% (guaranteed OHKO)

    252+ Sucker Punch to 252/252+ Slowbro: 37-44% (guaranteed OHKO after SR)
    252+ Ice Punch to 252/252+ Slowbro: 9-10%
    252+ Focus Punch to 252/252+ Slowbro: 26-31%
  22. nob

    nob

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    I'm fairly new to this, but this is what immediately came to mind.
    [​IMG]
    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
    Impish Nature
    - Roost
    - Spikes
    - Whirlwind
    - Brave Bird

    Skarmory (OU Physically Defensive) Focus Punch 40.41 - 47.6% Ice Punch 13.17 - 16.16%
    I feel bad about not being creative, but as long as Skarmory is at 60% health or above, if you switch on the sub you will come out victorious.

    SubDisable Gengar is a possible option if the opponent plays badly, but all they'd have to do to beat it is spam ice punch, so I'm not going to put up the set.
  23. FrostFire

    FrostFire

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    oh, oh, I know! :)

    [​IMG]
    Reuniclus @Leftovers
    Magic Guard
    Bold - 252HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp. Def
    -Calm Mind
    -Psychic
    -Focus Blast
    -Recover

    Reun counters Toxicroak easily and completely.

    Sucker Punch: 34.4 - 40.6%
    Focus Punch: 23.8 - 28.1%
    Ice Punch: 16 - 18.9%

    Yeah, Toxicroak does nowhere near enough damage, and Reun can break sub/ Pwn it with x4 effective psychic. It does have to watch out for Sucker Punch, but it can just Recover off that damage anyway, and SP won't work when Reun is using Recover (obviously). In fact, Reuniclus can use Toxicroak as Set-up fodder, recovering damage off as necessary, and go for the sweep.

    So yeah, pretty rock solid counter.
  24. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Dam you stole mine, I should note these calculations are done with LIFE ORB not even leftovers.

    Also ice beam always break toxicroak's substitute, so slowbro isn't even a candidate of PP stall.
  25. preliator

    preliator

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    [​IMG]
    Vaporeon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Roar
    - Scald
    - Hidden Power [Psychic]
    - Rest

    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 32,4% - 38,23%
    3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Focus Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 64,79% - 76,03%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers) -> Roar it out.

    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 23,11% - 27,21%
    5-6 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 10,8% - 12,74%
    15-21 hits to KO (with Leftovers)


    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Poison Jab vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 34,56% - 40,82%
    3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)



    Toxicroak is mostly used on rain teams or rain abusing teams thats why vaporeon seams like a good choice to me, it got access to Roar (Croaks often like to set up a sub or boost - just roar it out); while HP Psychic may look like a bad joke, it isnt if you really worry about Croak and other fighting or poisen types to much. Rest in the rain with Hydration...I really dont have to tell why Rest here...


    [​IMG]
    Volcarona (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Quiver Dance
    - Hurricane
    - Bug Buzz
    - Roost

    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 19,25% - 22,46%
    6-8 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Focus Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 38,24% - 44,92%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 27,27% - 32,09%
    4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 12,83% - 14,97%
    11-15 hits to KO (with Leftovers)


    252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Poison Jab vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 40,91% - 48,13%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)



    Also a bulky, rain abusing Volcarona seams like a good counter to me.
    Resisting Croaks fighting moves, also resisting Ice Punch; access to Hurricane, Roost to stall for a possible burn and heal off taken SR damage (if up) - to not be damaged by Sucker-Punch (which wont do much anyways...), Flame Body as Volca's Traid.... but one big "thumps down" to Volca.. 4x SR weak..so you'll need RS support... otherwise a great counter if you ask me... exkeept Croak carries a stab poisen move, which most dont. Quiver Dance is its obvious boosting move! ;)

    EDIT: CALC's ADDED!!!
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