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Counter this threat - Threat 2 : Kingdra

Discussion in 'BW UU' started by Zaon, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. Zaon

    Zaon

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    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
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    Approved by Kokoloko
    UU

    Counter This Threat

    Introduction

    Hello everyone, I am Zaon, I am hosting the thread "Counter This Threat". Each Sunday, I will post a threat and we will discuss about how deal with this threat, we will find counters, checks and other ways to deal with this threat. It will be a major threat so they will be few counters. You can post all you want, from classic sets to customized sets and EV's spread but all posts will require some explanations especialy for new movesets and EV's spread. In the end, I will post best solutions in this post and also best counters if it lacks of it.​

    Mission

    The purpose of this project is to help players to find counters, checks and strategies to deal with a major threat, it will help newer players. Also, it will to make discover underrated Pokemon and movesets, it will allow diversity in the metagame. Lastly, it will create a discussion of the big threat, ways to deal with it and new movesets, all of this will increase the sharing of new movesets and Pokemon.

    Threat

    Threat 1 : Raikou (open)

    [​IMG]
    Raikou
    Base Stats : 90/85/75/115/100/115
    Ability : Pressure
    Notable moves :
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power Ice
    - Volt Switch
    - Calm Mind
    - Extrasensory
    - Substitute
    - Aura Sphere
    - Hidden Power Grass​

    Since its release in GS, Raikou has always been a great Pokemon. It is one of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame for good reasons. Its Special Attack is great and can be boost by Calm Mind and then Raikou will be really hard to stop. Its movepool, while not great has some interresting options like Calm Mind, Aura Sphere and Extrasensory. For a sweeper, it is really bulky especialy on the special side with 90/75/100 defenses and can set-up Calm Mind easily. ​

    Ways To Deal with

    Counters
    [​IMG]
    Snorlax @ Choice Band
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 172 SDef / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Return
    - Pursuit
    - Earthquake
    - Crunch


    OR

    [​IMG]
    Snorlax @ Leftovers
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 208 HP / 124 Def / 176 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Body Slam
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest
    - Whirlwind​


    Snorlax is probably the best counter to Raikou, able to take comfortably all its hits bar a rare Spec Aura Sphere and then do massive damages with Earthquake or Body Slam.
    [​IMG]
    Camerupt @ Leftovers
    Ability: Solid Rock
    252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Stealth Rock
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Camerupt is one of the most solid answer to Raikou. It can take its all its hits easily except a Specs Extrasensory and can OHKO it with Earthquake or setup Stealth Rock.

    [​IMG]

    Piloswine @ Eviolite
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Stealth Rock / Stone Edge​

    Piloswine is one of the best counters to Raikou. The CM can't do something outside of HP Grass and can be OHKOed by Earthquake or an opportunity to setup SR while the LO and Specs versions will rely on HP Grass or the rare Aura Sphere to do real damages even if these two moves are taken quite well.

    Checks

    [​IMG]
    Swampert @ Leftovers
    EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
    Sassy nature
    - Earthquake
    - Scald
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar / Toxic

    SpD Swampert is one of the best solutions against Raikou. It is able to take well all hits except HP Grass which isn't even a OHKO at +1 and can then setup Stealth Rock or hit it with Earthquake.

    [​IMG]

    Rhyperior @ Leftovers
    Ability: Solid Rock
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Blast / Stone Edge
    - Dragon Tail / Megahorn / Ice Punch

    Rhyperior is without a doubt one of the best check to Raikou. It can take well all hits except HP Grass and Aura Sphere and can OHKO it with Earthquake or setup Stealth Rock

    [​IMG]
    Porygon2 @ Eviolite
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 HP / 12 SAtk / 244 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd / 0 Atk
    - Psyshock
    - Ice Beam
    - Trick Room
    - Recover

    This original Porygon2 is a great answer against Raikou, taking well all hits except Aura Sphere. The boost in Special Defense from Calm Mind isn't a problem thanks to Psyshock. It can take hits and then support teammates with Trick Room. Credit to Cassel for the set.

    [​IMG]
    Lanturn @ Leftovers
    EVs: 52 HP / 84 Atk / 168 Def / 204 SpD
    Sassy nature
    - Waterfall
    - Volt Switch
    - Scald / Ice Beam
    - Heal Bell / Toxic

    Lanturn is a nice check to Raikou especialy the CM version thanks to its ability, typing and nice bulk. It can also support teammates thanks to its good support movepool and break Raikou's Sub with Waterfall.

    Revenge killers

    Pretty much all scarfers can revenge kill Raikou if it isn't behind a Sub. Mienshao, Flygon, Darmanitan, Victini, Krookodile and Heracross are all great revenge killers to Raikou even if they all need that Raikou isn't behind a Substitute.


    Threat 2 : Kingdra

    [​IMG]
    Kingdra
    Base Stats : 75/95/95/95/95/85
    Ability : Swift Swim / Sniper / Damp
    Notable move :
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Waterfall
    - Substitute
    - Rain Dance
    - Hydro Pump
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Surf
    - Rest
    - Hidden Power Electric​

    Kingdra is easily one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame. Its unique typing in the tier is excellent offensively, giving it a nearly perfect coverage only resisted by Empoleon and the rare Ferroseed and great defensively with double resistances to fire and water and a resistance to Steel. Its movepool, while being shallow has both Dragon Dance and Rain Dance, two interristing options for Kingdra. Its defenses are great and allow it to setup Rain Dance and Dragon Dance easily.​
  2. PTJon7

    PTJon7

    Joined:
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    Here's a really good counter to CM Raikou and an overall pretty solid pokemon in UU:

    [​IMG]

    Piloswine @ Eviolite
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Icicle Spear/Icicle Crash
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Shard
    - Stealth Rock/Stone Edge

    Immune to T-Bolt, resists HP Ice, and can use Icicle Spear to break the Sub as well as deal damage to Raikou.

    Piloswine is in my opinion a good counter to Raikou in general, only getting hit super effectively by HP Grass and Aura Sphere, both of which Piloswine can take quite well.

    Calcs:
    Show Hide

    252SpAtk Raikou (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 252HP/4SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (Neutral): 9% - 11% (39 - 46 HP).

    252SpAtk Raikou (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Grass) vs 252HP/4SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (Neutral): 38% - 45% (156 - 184 HP).

    252SpAtk Raikou (+SAtk) Aura Sphere vs 252HP/4SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (Neutral): 49% - 58% (200 - 236 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 25% chance to 2HKO.
  3. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

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    Snorlax @Leftovers
    Trait: Thick Fat
    80 HP/252 Atk/176 SpDef
    ~Body Slam
    ~Earthquake
    ~Pursuit
    ~Fire Punch

    Snorlax can switch into anything with the exception of a Specs Aura Sphere, which is exceedingly rare since it forces Raikou to use a Rash nature. On any other set, it switches into either Calm Mind or Volt Switch with impunity, and can either Earthquake away, or use Body Slam if you want to get paralysis on something.

    /obvious
  4. Cassen

    Cassen

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    This here is one of the six pokemon I have on my team that I use as a sort of catch-all special tank, who was given this moveset and EV spread to reliably take on all variants of both Zapdos and Raikou:

    [​IMG]
    Porygon2 @ Eviolite
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 HP / 12 SAtk / 244 SDef
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd / 0 Atk
    - Psyshock
    - Ice Beam
    - Trick Room
    - Recover

    I built this Porygon2 with the bulky variants of Zapdos and Raikou (physically defensive Zapdos and 64HP EV Raikou, to be specific) in mind since if I could beat those two in their bulkiest sets, I could handle the non-bulky sets 1-on-1 guaranteed.

    Psyshock is the crux of the set; this move is the reason why I chose to use this pokemon over other things like Lanturn or Rotom-H. Unlike Rotom-H or Lanturn, this Porygon2 doesn't care how much of a boost Raikou's special defense has which allows him to pressure Raikou, forcing it to either stop boosting/subbing and attempt to go for the kill (given the fact that this Porygon2 is invested heavily in special defense and HP, killing it is no easy task -especially- with Trick Room+Recover) or to flat out switch.

    Speaking of Trick Room, this is the main reason I chose to use Porygon2 over Snorlax, and is probably the only reason I'd ever run anything over Snorlax to handle Raikou. My team in particular benefits greatly from a Trick Room given by Porygon2 just before it dies, since one of my slow but bulky choiced sweepers can come in and start attacking. Personally, the team I use this Porygon2 on isn't even a TR team, with Porygon2 being the only one that can set up the move - TR just happened to not only be effective against the 1-on-1 vs. Raikou, but it also greatly supported my two sweepers (think TR Cofagrius: he doesn't need to be on a TR team to be great, he just needs the right opportunity).

    If you don't like Trick Room for whatever reason, though, then don't bother changing the move for something else and just use something like Snorlax instead. Snorlax's ability to check Raikou as well as pursuit trap is likely to be of more valuable to you in this case, or another pokemon that fulfills a given niche.

    I won't touch on Ice Beam for this particular discussion, just know that it's meant to hit Zapdos super-effectively.

    Great partners for this set would definitely be slow, powerful pokemon such as CB Escavalier or CS Empoleon. If Porygon2 can get off a Trick Room just before he dies, you'll be at huge advatage with being able to get in a CB Escavalier to revenge kill whatever killed Porygon2 (a pokemon with 20 base speed doing some revenge killing - imagine that!).

    To close up, here's some relevant calculations regarding the set:


    12+ SpA Porygon2 Psyshock vs. 64 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 85-100 (25.22 - 29.67%) -- possible 4HKO

    +1 252 SpA Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 244 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 148-176 (39.57 - 47.05%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    +1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 244 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 118-139 (31.55 - 37.16%) -- 86.67% chance to 3HKO
  5. Warb

    Warb

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    Dec 5, 2012
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    I'm suprised nobody even mentioned one of THE premier checks to Raikou right now.

    [​IMG]

    Rhyperior @ Leftovers
    Ability: Solid Rock
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Blast / Stone Edge
    - Dragon Tail / Megahorn / Ice Punch

    This set is nothing new, but newer players might look at Rhyperior's stats and write it off as a physically bulky attacker. But given the proper investment (max HP max SDef more or less), coupled with its ridiculous high HP pool and Solid Rock ability, Rhyperior is one of the most solid (pun not intended) checks to SubCM Raikou, arguably one of the most fearsome sweepers in the UU metagame if given the chance to set up.

    There isn't really that much need of an explanation, since this set is also found on Rhyperior's official analysis, so just go and read up that one.
    http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/rhyperior

    here are some calcs, showing that Rhyperior can be switched into SubCM Raikou without fear of getting even 3HKO'd.

    252 SpAtk Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs 248 HP/244 SpDef Rhyperior: 27,71% - 32,79%
    4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 +1 SpAtk Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs 248 HP/244 SpDef Rhyperior: 41,57% - 49,19%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    btw: That P2 set is really well thought out. I'm impressed!
  6. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Turn it up!
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    ^HP grass




    Pory2's set is good, will try!

    Rotom-H is another wonderful Raikou counter, with Resistances to all its common attacks and able to OHKO(with specs) with OverHeat. A Trick with Scarf can be useful to help ease prediction; if Raikou uses thunderbolt he is easily blocked by any ground type.
  7. Warb

    Warb

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    While you are correct on that, most SubCM Raikous use HP Ice to OHKO Flygon while sitting behind a Sub. A +1 HP Grass results in just a 3HKO on Flygon, so most people usually go for HP Ice.
    Since this thread is mostly for newer players, I think it is appropriate to mention the most used sets first :P

    Rotom-H is not a real Raikou counter imo. It is a decent check, especially to Choiced variants. But SubCM Raikou can easily set up on Rotom-H as long as it is not scarfed. Since Rotom-H'h only real way of breaking Raikou's Subs is Overheat, Raikou can easily Sub until Rotom-H switches out or the sub doesn't break.
  8. vigi

    vigi

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    Jun 28, 2012
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    This isn't so much of a common set, but since Piloswine is already here I'll post a slightly less niche set: Specs Lanturn

    Lanturn @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 148 Spd / 108 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Volt Switch
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    Does over 25% on bulky SubCM Raikou with HP Ground (the one in the OU analysis) while he's at +2/+2, while taking minimal damage from any attack Raikou has apart from HP Grass. Non-CM sets without HP Grass are Hydro Pump fodder.

    I like getting to 207 speed to outspeed Gligar, but using more health and less speed is a great option.
  9. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    Camerupt @ Leftovers
    Ability: Solid Rock
    252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Stealth Rock
    - Will-O-Wisp

    A textbook Raikou counter that really only fears Specs Extrasensory. It can take both HP Grass and HP Ice, and unlike Lanturn it doesn't need a choice locked ground move (hella risky) to almost beat SubCM Raikou. SR and Will-o-wisp support keep it from being total dead weight other than to counter Raikou.

    This is the EV spread from the UU Stall RMT, but I also like 252 / 4 / 252.

    -----

    That said, I am not convinced this project will help new players. If anything, it will convince them that they need a hard counter to every threat and every move the Pokemon can possibly carry.
  10. Zaon

    Zaon

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    Thanks for replies, I will update the first post.

    PJTon7 : Piloswine is a good idea, it is one of the best counter to SubCM Raikou but it doesn't counter the Spec which can do damages with Extrasensory or the rare Aura Sphere. I will add it in "Ways to deal with", thanks.

    TPO3 : Yes, Snorlax is obvious, I will add it in "Ways to deal with" but I will post the RestTalk version because it is more durable. Thanks

    Cassen : Amazing idea, your set seems really good, it is well explained and this Porygon2 is really bulky and can support teammates. I will definitely try it and add it, thanks.

    Warb : Yes, Rhyperior is one of the best check to CM Raikou without HP Grass. I will add it and mention that it has to be carreful with HP Grass. Thanks

    Metal Sonic : Rotom-H isn't a real counter to Raikou, it can only break subs with Overheat which allows a set-up, is weak to SR and can't really take hits from the Spec. I won't add it as a counter but as a check. Thanks

    vigi : It isn't really a counter since it doesn't do great damages to SubCM Raikou and takes a lot from the Spec. Also, it needs to use HP Ground to beat Raikou and it can be risky. I won't add it but I might try it. Thanks.

    cim : I have already tried it and it is one of the best counters to Raikou except for Spec Extrasensory. I will add it but with a thread of 252 / 4 / 252.
    I think it will help new players because it would help them to find counters to a big threat.
  11. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
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    Porygon2 is a neat answer to everything but a weird Specs Aura Sphere set, but I don't really like your set. Analytic Tri Attack is definitely nice already to beat Raikou (it needs something like 24 SpA EVs to break its Subs at +1), and Porygon2 even learns fucking Psych Up to win in Kou's own game, copying its boosts while having reliable recovery.
    I just feel like your set is a little too out there, although Trick Room is definitely a nice move on P2, for sure.

    I'd like to post this set FlareBlitz used, it might seem overspecialized but after doing some calcs, it's pretty impressive: SpD Swampert

    Swampert @ Leftovers
    EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
    Sassy nature
    - Earthquake
    - Scald
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roar / Toxic

    252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 220-260 (54.86 - 64.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 324-384 (80.79 - 95.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 328-390 (81.79 - 97.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 146-173 (36.4 - 43.14%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 156-185 (38.9 - 46.13%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 180-213 (44.88 - 53.11%) -- 33.59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    It's a great check to HP Grass Electrics, Special Victini—problem is, it dies to CB Victini—, non-Energy Ball Chandelure, and the Nidos... Again, I don't take any credit for this set, but FlareBlitz brought it up and I think it's definitely worth sharing. If it didn't lose to physical Fire-types, it would most definitely warrant a set, but sadly Swampert is one of the better answer to physical Fire-types, so having to run another answer to them is a problem, especially considering that Flygon, one of Pert's greatest partners, can only switch into V-create once, and it even has a minimal chance of being OHKOed by CB Adamant Victini—why that isn't more popular is something I don't understand.
  12. Zaon

    Zaon

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    Spd Swampert seems to be a solid answer to Raikou and the other special sweepers you said. I will test it and add it. Thanks
  13. vigi

    vigi

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    While your points about Camerupt being more of a sure-fire counter and Choiced HP Ground being risky are usually correct, they are both heavily context dependent; Camerupt will have trouble finding a spot on any offensive-inclined team, something which Lanturn excels at, and HP Ground will not always be used: only in situations when Raikou getting a free sub up due to a Hydro Pump miss results in game-over for me would I prefer it.

    (also, all the actual counters were taken..)
  14. Zaon

    Zaon

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    Since now, all counters were post and the new threat will come on Sunday, could we discuss of checks, revenge killer and other ways to deal with Raikou. What are other ways to deal with Raikou?
  15. Warb

    Warb

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    Pretty much any common physical Scarfer can revenge kill Raikou, as long as it is not behind a sub or scarfed itself. Mienshao, Heracross, Flygon, Darmanitan, Victini and Krookodile are pretty much the most common scarfers in the tier; each of those carry at least one move to potentially OHKO Raikou with.
  16. silenced

    silenced

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    Hmm, Was nearly going to say Rotom-H as a counter, but it might be more of a check.

    Rotom-H @ Life Orb/Choice Specs
    252 Spa, 252 Spe, 4 SpD
    Timid Nature
    Overheat
    Thunderbolt/Volt Switch
    HP Ground
    Pain Split/Trick

    Basically resists STAB and hidden power of choice (specs aura sphere may hurt), while breaking any subs with hidden power ground. Could even have a bulkier attacking rotom with leftovers, just so long as you have special attack near maxed out to break +1 subs.

    As for checks, roserade does a decent job if you can afford to spare 24 EV's into special attack (defensive sets), as raikou needs to get to +2 to stop roserade's sludge bomb breaking its subs, while it risks poisoning while trying to get to +2. As for other raikou sets, they pretty much need to be hitting roserade with specs HP Ice/Extrasensory, which really only hurt from raikou with LO/Specs.
  17. REXinator

    REXinator

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    [​IMG]
    Shedinja - all sets.

    Raikou is one of the Pokémon acutally lost against Shedinja. Even strange builds very seldom have anything to hit it. Also you can break Voltswitch/U-turn chains and force it to give up a nicely build substitutes or calm minds.

    So therefore you can simply hit, set up SD or use Will-o-Wisp/Toxic on the Pokémon which enters to counter.
  18. Meru

    Meru
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    Using Shedinja in a tier with terrible spinners and excellent hazard setters?

    Hell no. Keep Shedinja far away from any mention of UU.
  19. PTJon7

    PTJon7

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    Posting Shedinja as an example to counter Raikou is exactly the kind of thing this thread is all about: diversifying the metagame. It would take some support, but keeping entry hazards off the field isn't a terribly hard thing to do.
  20. Zaon

    Zaon

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    Thanks, I will add all of them but i will mention that they can't revenge kill Raikou behind a sub and that Heracross needs Some support to KO it.

    Thanks, I will add them as checks.


    No, Shedinja isn't good. It needs a Spinner but there isn't any good Spinner in UU whereas hasard setters are great. I won't add it.
  21. NGC-2024

    NGC-2024

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    I remember back in gen 4 UU, someone mentioned using Waterfall on Lanturn as a good check to Raikou. iirc, it didn't need all that many EVs to break a sub. Granted, I wouldn't use it unless I REALLY needed a Raikou counter that didn't share weaknesses with the rest of my team. Just worth a mention, since its a Lanturn that can break a sub no matter how many boosts Raikou has.

    edit: Okay, I could have sworn it was less, but it looks like it takes 84 atk EVs to break a 4 HP EV raikou sub. But that doesn't mean all hope is lost for the little fish. Luckily Lanturn is a very flexible pokemon. It could still run a more supporty set, something like:

    Lanturn @ Leftovers
    EVs: 52 HP / 84 Atk / 168 Def / 204 SpD
    Sassy nature
    - Waterfall
    - Volt Switch
    - Scald / Ice Beam
    - Heal Bell / Toxic

    Or 168 SpA EVs and run a more offensive set. Like I said, Lanturn is a flexible pokemon so it can run a whole bunch of sets.
  22. Zaon

    Zaon

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    Thanks, I'll mention it but please, could you post the set.
  23. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    When countering Kingdra, there's two surefire Pokemon that can and will get the job done. Empoleon and Ferroseed - the only pure counters to any Kingdra variant.

    [​IMG]
    Empoleon @ Leftovers
    Torrent
    Calm Nature
    252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    -Scald
    -Ice Beam
    -Roar
    -Stealth Rock

    Thanks to it's typing, Empoleon easily resists Kingdra's Dragon- and Water-typing STAB and can Roar it out, preventing Kingdra from setting up and wrecking a team. Scald can nab a burn every now and then, which can cripple any physical variant that does not run Lum Berry or ChestoRest. Ice Beam does solid, neutral damage to Kingdra, preventing it from staying in on Empoleon.

    Empoleon's bulk allows it to stomach many of Kingdra's strongest attacks. I've provided some calculations to further show how good of a stop Empoleon is to Kingdra:

    (SubDD Kingdra) +2 252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 192-227 (51.61 - 61.02%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO
    (Rain Dance Kingdra) 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon in rain: 121-143 (32.52 - 38.44%) -- 3.17% chance to 3HKO
    (Offensive DD Kingdra) +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 250-295 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (Specs Kingdra) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 146-172 (39.24 - 46.23%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    [​IMG]
    Ferroseed @ Eviolite
    Iron Barbs
    Sassy Nature
    252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    0 Spe IVs
    -Spikes / Stealth Rock
    -Leech Seed
    -Thunder Wave / Protect
    -Gyro Ball

    Similar to Empoleon, Ferroseed also sports a typing that allows it to easily shrug off any STAB attacks thrown its way. Ferroseed also has a bit mroe going for it in regards to beating Kingdra. Its ability, Iron Barbs, inflicts damage when Kingdra makes contact with Ferroseed, which may discourage Kingdra from staying in, or allow a fast revenge killer / priority user to pick off Kingdra. Ferroseed also has Leech Seed, which will further discourage Kingdra from staying in, as it loses a significant amount of health while Ferroseed regains it. Thunder Wave can slow and permanently cripple all Kingdra variants unless it is run with Heal Bell support or carries a Lum Berry. Here's some calculations:

    (Offensive DD Kingdra) +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 162-191 (55.47 - 65.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (Rain Dance Kingdra) 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed in rain: 90-106 (30.82 - 36.3%) -- 60.67% chance to 3HKO
    (Specs Kingdra) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 80-94 (27.39 - 32.19%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
  24. Zaon

    Zaon

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    60
    Thanks for your reply. These two are obvious especialy the first one, I'll add them.

    EDIT : Thanks to post the set NGC-2024, I have added it
  25. silenced

    silenced

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    242
    While switching this 'mon in against kingdra is an initial risk due to the threat of specs hydropump or raindance, I would have CB escavalier as the next best standalone check to kingdra, as I'm rather of the opinion you need at least two pokemon to do so outside of pokemazter's picks.

    To give you an idea, consider the following calculations
    252Atk +2 Kingdra (Neutral) Waterfall vs 248HP/0Def Escavalier (Neutral): 58% - 69% (202 - 238 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Choice Band Escavalier (+Atk) Megahorn vs 4HP/0Def Damp Kingdra (Neutral): 118% - 139% (346 - 408 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

    Outside of flinchax and megahorn missing, this is pretty damn good for an offensive mon to be able to take on that smug dancing bastard of a sweeper (I really do not like kingdra if it wasn't obvious by now).

    Actually, upon a further check, while it can't switch in safely to it without a great deal of prediction...

    252SpAtk Life Orb Sniper Kingdra (Neutral) Surf in Rain vs 252HP/8SpDef Escavalier (Neutral): 67% - 79% (231 - 273 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    So unless kingdra has LO, RD active and uses Hydropump AND hits with hydromiss, escavalier can beat or force out RD kingdra too, which is a testament to it being so bloody good, as well as a check to it. It can beat the specs variant too, but it would much prefer to cop a draco meteor than hydropump, and just forcing out specs kingdra isn't nearly as good as forcing out the other two variants.

    Edit: Derp, forgot to post the damn EV's and set.
    Escavalier @ Choice Band
    Adamant
    248 HP, 252 Atk, 8 SpD
    Iron Head
    Megahorn
    Return
    Pursuit

    Edit2: Forgot to remove swarm as a factor. Luckily, after double checking the calc, the damage output was still the same due to setting health of escavalier at 100%. Fixed that error.

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