Policy Review Counters Discussion (Discussion)

[Bughouse]

Also throwing my support behind the current proposal. I think the process described in Deck Knight's most recent post is desirable. Especially the idea of a "Threats Discussion" after typing poll alone.

The following idea just seems ideal to me:
"What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified? What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion? What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?"

I feel it simultaneously limits and stimulates discussion about movepool and stats for the CAP.

 

[tennisace]

It's been a couple days, I'm going to lock this tomorrow and write it up if nobody has any other changes. We're going with Deck's last post for both the Threat Discussion and Counters Discussion.

 

[Birkal]

Looks great! I dunno if this is an obvious thing or not, but you might want to post add in Deck Knight's post about relevant moves in a spoiler underneath his fourth bullet point of "Hard Counters". Unless that list is widely recognized and easy to remember off the top of your head (I doubt every contributor will have it memorized), it could be useful to have on hand.

Criteria for a Hard Counter (Requires 3/6):

• Can switch into this CAP's Strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
• Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
• Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking.
• Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.
  
  Relevant Moves

  Notes: A Reliable STAB attack is one with a stable Base Attack Power that deals consistent damage, meaning the strongest non-signature attack under these categories are for each type:
  
  Bug: Megahorn, Bug Buzz
  Dark: Crunch, Dark Pulse
  Dragon: Outrage, Dragon Pulse
  Electric: Wild Charge, Thunder
  Fighting: Hi Jump Kick, Focus Blast
  Fire: Flare Blitz, Fire Blast
  Flying: Brave Bird, Hurricane
  Ghost: Shadow Claw, Shadow Ball
  Grass: Wood Hammer/Power Whip, Petal Dance
  Ground: Earthquake, Earth Power
  Ice: Icicle Crash, Blizzard
  Normal: Double-Edge, Hyper Voice
  Poison: Gunk Shot, Sludge Wave
  Psychic: Zen Headbutt, Psychic
  Rock: Head Smash, Power Gem
  Steel: Meteor Mash/Iron Tail, Flash Cannon
  Water: Aqua Tail, Hydro Pump
  
  A Pokemon can become a Counter if we believe coverage for a certain type is helpful, but the move we choose does not have enough BAP to satisfy the second requirement below.
  
  
• Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking a OHKO.
• Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.

Maybe something along that vain? Just a thought. I am excited to get things rolling!

 

[tennisace]

I'm not going to include that list since, for one, it's pretty inaccurate and out of touch with competitive battling. Nobody and I mean NOBODY uses Aqua Tail > Waterfall, and the only reason to use Head Smash is if you have Rock Head as an ability. The other reason I'm not including it is that it is way too limiting really, as having counters survive those specific attacks may color voters into GIVING the Pokemon those specific attacks, e.g. "One of our counters can survive CB Megahorn twice! Let's give it Megahorn even though it makes our Pokemon basically impossible to be handled by any Pokemon other than one of our Counters!"

Edit: three days late but w/e gonna finish this up.